Myrtle Avenue Warehouse District

[thelakelander]

Castleberry Hill in Atlanta is now a hotbed for artists, galleries, and restaurants.  It is south of downtown and is definitely the best example of a warehouse district in the south.  Granted, its building stock was much more confined and generally larger, so there was more to work with.

I like Castleberry Hill but its no where near the best example of an authentic urban warehouse district in the South.  That would be a battle between New Orleans' Warehouse District and Richmond's Shockoe Slip/ Bottom.  Both have 19th century level density and are pretty vibrant at street level.

Oh yeah, can't forget about Dallas' Deep Ellum either.  I'd rate it above Castleberry Hill at this point as well.  Although its dominanted with small one and two story buildings, its much larger, definitely walkable and now connected with the rest of the Metroplex via the recent DART LRT Green Line extension.

[simms3]

I like Castleberry Hill but its no where near the best example of an authentic urban warehouse district in the South.  That would be a battle between New Orleans' Warehouse District and Richmond's Shockoe Slip/ Bottom.  Both have 19th century level density and are pretty vibrant at street level.  Unless things have changed since 2009 (my last time visiting Castleberry Hill), I remember Castleberry Hill being a lot more spread out with smaller historic structures than the two mentioned above and shown below.

Today, I think the most architecturally unique is the Springfield Warehouse District and the most urban may be Dennis Street.  As for an Atlanta example that Myrtle Street probably resembles in terms of historic building scale, imo, its Marietta Street between Centennial Olympic Park and the Club Compound area (minus the new urban infill of course).

Well, there is nothing spread out about Castleberry Hill, perhaps you were in the wrong area (there is one surface lot that holds maybe 20 cars behind some buildings and no room for street parking), BUT I'll give you Shockoe Slip and New Orleans.  Forgot about those cities' districts.  While the restored buildings in Castleberry are only 2-4 floors tops, and generally 2-3 floors, there are actually a whole host of large 5-8 floor warehouse buildings nearby that if restored would easily give any warehouse district a run for its money.  Just go to Bing Maps bird's eye and you can see a couple million square feet of 5-8 floor buildings begging to be restored within an 8th of a mile.  The south's largest warehouses are actually in Atlanta (including the now being renovated 2 million square foot Sears Roebuck city hall east, which has an old Ford plant next to it that was converted to lofts with ground level retail a couple years ago).

Marietta St, too, is a good example of urban restoration, but is laid out too differently than the Myrtle Ave area.  It is also considerably denser with old building stock.  It is one road (with buildings as narrow as 1 large room across) that runs by railroad tracks.  It's so land starved that since 2009 almost every building along Marietta St has a rooftop garden and terrace.  All of those buildings were blighted when I arrived in 2006, and now all are restored with about 1,200 new apartment units built since then, too.  2009 to now is a huge difference in intown Atlanta.  Also, White Provisions was finished...you as an architect probably are aware of that project...turning an old factory into a mixed use project with a mid-rise condos, a Room & Board, one of the south's only 5 star restaurants, and tons of other things.  Anthropologie renovated a warehouse across the street, and a couple of the best galleries in the country are on this street in renovated space now.  I don't even think Nola and Richmond have that level of activity and money pouring into their districts.

And as much as people on this board hate to hear that big money is the factor and not grassroots, in Atlanta's Westside district case (the old meatpacking district along Marietta that you spoke of), it was big money.  Jamestown financed White Provisions.  The apartments are all big money.  The tenants are mostly upscale and can afford rents that really don't exist in Jacksonville.

Jamestown is a company that does have a lot of money and only invests in urban, green projects.  It's a German company with NA HQ in Atlanta.  They did the Chelsea Market in NYC's meatpacking district (Green Street Properties of Atlanta, the force behind that, is now a subsidiary of Jamestown).  Jamestown also did Warehouse Row in Chatanooga:

http://www.warehouserow.net/
http://whiteprovision.com/

Drew Ellis, a boutique in Midtown with pop-up locations in Manhattan, tried out Warehouse Row.  It is still there, but one of the owners tells me that it is difficult because Jamestown got a little too giddy about the feasibility of the project (Drew Ellis has a relation with Jamestown, as they are in Jamestown's Metropolis in Midtown).  Problem with Warehouse Row is its separation from the rest of Chatanooga and its isolation as a warehouse concept (also, Drew Ellis is expensive...I know , it would be difficult to make it work in Chatanooga, even Jacksonville).

http://www.jamestownproperties.com/
http://greenstreetproperties.com/Home.aspx

The big player in downtown Atlanta rehabs and around Centennial Park is Legacy Property Group.  It doesn't look past the area.  It doesn't care about other areas.  It wants that area to be a hotspot, and it has succeeded.  M Street (Marietta St) from downtown to the aquarium is home to some serious new development from big hotels and loft condos with helipads for copter tours and fancy guests to some of the hottest intown Atlanta restaurants (Stats and Der Biergarten, next door to each other with parking on the roof behind them are seriously awesome...you can rent a locker to store your steins at Der Biergarten and become a member, and Stats offers table taps and rooftop views of the city).  Anyway, they should be rolemodels for a Jacksonville company wanting to niche itself.  They have BIG backing now, but started small with ideas and hard work.  They started one project at a time, and now THE western downtown Atlanta player.

http://www.legacyproperty.com/
Seriously check out their website for some really cool pictures of their projects and the area (Marietta Street you speak of).

I know I refer to Atlanta and occasionally other cities, but I can only speak from my experience and knowledge and Jacksonville seriously needs outside input, outside ideas, outside money, and outside everything.

[simms3]

And sorry, but Dallas has nothing on Atlanta in terms of walkability.  Deep Ellum does not impress me one bit.  Nor does Uptown.  Nor does the area towards Preston or Love Field, etc.  I actually can't stand that entire city, but if I were rich and could stand Dallas culture, then I suppose the Park Cities are nice.

[thelakelander]

Neither Dallas or Atlanta are really walkable.  In fact they are both pretty similar.  However, Deep Ellum is more walkable and larger than Castleberry Hill.  Give me a few minutes.  I'll post some scaled aerials of these districts to illustrate my point of view.

[Ocklawaha]

Oklahoma City isn't too bad either, in fact if you could just kick the Sooners out, it might be perfect.

Deep Deuce Warehouse District, Oklahoma City
Beginning in the late 1800’s, the Deep Deuce became the economic and cultural center for African-Americans in Oklahoma City. Within walking distance of downtown and the warehouse district (now Bricktown), African-Americans lived in the Deep Deuce.



Automobile Alley. A popular retail district in the 1920s, Automobile Alley was home to most of the city’s car dealerships. Today a stroll through the area will take you past the art deco architecture tucked away in galleries, upscale lofts and offices.
North Broadway Avenue from West Park Place (just north of 10th Street) to Northwest Fourth Street,


Within Oklahoma City Bricktown is possibly the most vibrant and magnetic district. Situated to the east of the city's Downtown, Bricktown was once a rundown warehouse district. The area has undergone a major transformation in recent years, however, with developers buying up the cavernous buildings and turning them into trendy restaurants, lively bars, and pumping clubs. Given its newfound evening appeal, and the scenic nature of Bricktown in Oklahoma City by day, it is today one of Oklahoma's standout attractions.

OCKLAWAHA

[simms3]

Looking forward to the aerials, and I know Deep Ellum covers more city blocks than Castleberry Hill (never denied that) considering Castleberry is bounded by railroad tracks, highway, universities, etc.  I'll admit that the last time I saw Ellus was the last time I was in Dallas in October of 2008, and I got to really explore the city.  I'm sure much has changed since then, but I couldn't wait to leave that city.  Couldn't take much about it and I thought it was deader than a doornail, including Ellum at that time (an area that had been built up to me as the place to go).

If you haven't seen Castleberry Hill since '09, then you haven't seen Castleberry Hill.  It is a denser network of buildings than Ellum, and it now has its own supermarket, meat market, galleries, restaurants, etc.  It's not as hot as the westside, though.  Even Bing Maps can't keep up with any of the Westside, which has seen such drastic changes words cannot describe.  Atlanta is a much more industrial feeling city from a brick and mortar perspective (pre-war) than Dallas.  There are just so many more old warehouses in different parts of the city, and so many more hot neighborhoods within spitting distance of downtown than Dallas.  Dallas keeps going north, Atlanta is literally caving in on itself in a good way.  I live in and walk Midtown every day.  Apple nearly went in 2 blocks from me and predicted $5,300/Sf in sales their first year open (it's still on the table I think, and this is privy information btw).  They aren't looking at going anywhere but the malls in Dallas.  The other thing, Atlantic Station "looks" new, but those buildings are also restored warehouses.  I actually wish that didn't really happen, because all of that could also be in the real Midtown.

I don't like it when people say Dallas and Atlanta are the same, especially people who should know better such as yourself.  Atlanta is the poster child for everything right to be done and everything wrong to be done, for Jacksonville's case.  Jacksonville should not look at Dallas for anything.  That city is so different in so many ways that its most redeeming characteristic is the landscaping in Highland Park (I'm pretty sure every house there has a different lawn service each day).  That and the Joule Hotel in downtown Dallas are the only cool things in that city.

PS: Hall Pass was filmed in Castleberry Hill.

[thelakelander]

Keep in mind, when I'm writing about this, it has nothing to do with my personal feelings towards a particular city or vibe.  For example, I actually prefer Fort Worth to Dallas and Richmond, but wouldn't stay in any as long as I have a choice.  I'm strictly comparing them from a pedestrian scale level after visiting all of them on foot with the purpose of looking at their urban form during my time of being there.  My comparison has nothing to do with the type of people who frequent them, their culture or quality/style of infill loft development.  My focus is strictly pedestrian scale urbanism and integration at street level.

Atlanta - Castleberry Hill

General thoughts - no real street grid and majority of buildings straddle two streets (Walker and Peters).  Significant portion of district is vacant lots (urban dead zones at pedestrian level) where buildings used to be.

Dallas - Deep Ellum

General thoughts - urban street grid, LRT stop and majority of lots have buildings on them.

New Orleans - Warehouse District

General thoughts - Its as urban as it gets in the South.  Any time we talk Southern urbanism, its going to be right up at the top since its also one of the oldest and densest cities in the country.

Richmond - Shockoe Slip/Bottom

General thoughts - Its long and narrow because it follows the river.  However, its got a good 8 or 9 blocks of continuous multistory historic warehouses  before being broken up by a parking lot.  Once you get under I-95, you've got another string of buildings that end up integrating seamlessly with DT.  The cobblestone streets and San Antonio style Canal Walk also add to Shockoe's flavor.



Some random shots from past MJ articles...


I haven't been to Dallas since 2006 but here is what Deep Ellum looked like back then.


Deep Ellum at street level


Out of these four, Richmond probably wins in a landslide on the historical architectural side of things.


This is what it looks like at street level when you don't see a lot of green on aerials.  While all of these places have industrial pasts, when you're in New Orleans' warehouse district, it actually feels like you're in the heart of a city.

We've never done a photo thread on Castleberry Hill, although I do have photos on a flash drive somewhere around my place.

[thelakelander]

If you haven't seen Castleberry Hill since '09, then you haven't seen Castleberry Hill.  It is a denser network of buildings than Ellum, and it now has its own supermarket, meat market, galleries, restaurants, etc.  It's not as hot as the westside, though.  Even Bing Maps can't keep up with any of the Westside, which has seen such drastic changes words cannot describe.

All the Google Earth aerials were taken in 2010.  I see some growth in all of the cities since I've visited them but the aerials still illustrate the difference in urbanity, as far as walkability (connected street grid, block lengths), building fabric vs. surface lots, etc. goes.

I don't like it when people say Dallas and Atlanta are the same, especially people who should know better such as yourself.  Atlanta is the poster child for everything right to be done and everything wrong to be done, for Jacksonville's case.  Jacksonville should not look at Dallas for anything.  That city is so different in so many ways that its most redeeming characteristic is the landscaping in Highland Park (I'm pretty sure every house there has a different lawn service each day).  That and the Joule Hotel in downtown Dallas are the only cool things in that city.

You're right, they are not the same.  Dallas has a superior transit network and having Fort Worth nearby is a major plus.  On the other hand, Atlanta is greener, the food is better and it's closer to Florida .  However, there are things (good and bad) that Jacksonville can learn from both of them.

[thelakelander]

Marietta St, too, is a good example of urban restoration, but is laid out too differently than the Myrtle Ave area.  It is also considerably denser with old building stock.  It is one road (with buildings as narrow as 1 large room across) that runs by railroad tracks.  It's so land starved that since 2009 almost every building along Marietta St has a rooftop garden and terrace.

Its similar in that there is one dominant street and its linear in nature and their placement in relation to each city's downtown core.  Most of the buildings are also pretty small in terms of scale when compared with some of the other districts discussed here.  What's not similar is that there is nothing equivalent to GT in Jacksonville.

Also, White Provisions was finished...you as an architect probably are aware of that project...turning an old factory into a mixed use project with a mid-rise condos, a Room & Board, one of the south's only 5 star restaurants, and tons of other things.  Anthropologie renovated a warehouse across the street, and a couple of the best galleries in the country are on this street in renovated space now.  I don't even think Nola and Richmond have that level of activity and money pouring into their districts.

In terms of urbanism, I don't get too caught up on who has 5 star restaurants, popular developers and certain chains.  My focus is on if a place is well integrated at the pedestrian level.  Some places that people will call slums happen to be districts I enjoy the most.  For example, the image below was taken in Miami a few years ago.  Its not South Beach but I loved the vibe with the sidewalk.  They pretty much pull up the roll up door and you got quick serve mom & pop cuban cuisine right on the sidewalk.  Definitely, not five star but still generates foot traffic on the street.

And as much as people on this board hate to hear that big money is the factor and not grassroots, in Atlanta's Westside district case (the old meatpacking district along Marietta that you spoke of), it was big money.  Jamestown financed White Provisions.  The apartments are all big money.  The tenants are mostly upscale and can afford rents that really don't exist in Jacksonville.

Big money is definitely not driving the scene in Miami's Little Havana or Flagler Street.  It's a cluster of little places like this:





They may not get the people dressed in Armani suits or developers building lofts with marble floors but its a vibrant street scene full of local culture.  At the end of the day, that's all I really want for Jacksonville.  A sustainable urban core where people from all walks of life can have access to and enjoy it.  To me it doesn't matter if its upscale or for the common man, as long as its urban I'm cool with it.  On the flip end, if its not sustainable and sprawly, I have issues with it.

I know I refer to Atlanta and occasionally other cities, but I can only speak from my experience and knowledge and Jacksonville seriously needs outside input, outside ideas, outside money, and outside everything.

I definitely agree.  That's why I tend to focus on public policy a lot.  For Jacksonville to turn the corner, its got to allow creativity, innovation and change to freely happen.

[simms3]

Yea the aerials don't do any of the districts justice.  You say there are vacant lots in Castleberry Hill, but even on the aerial there is just one (the one where I mentioned parking behind buildings on a sides street).  Ellum looks the best on an aerial (which tells me something), but then again all those buildings are 1 floor, sometimes 2.  Can't really tell much on the Nola aerial or on the Richmond aerial, and those buildings, especially in Richmond, are large.

I agree with you Nola is the most urban of any city in the South.  I also agree that Richmond's Shockoe is awesome.  Shockoe reminds me of Milwaukee almost to a drumbeat (albeit slightly smaller than the stuff Milwaukee has going on).  Your picture of Ellum brings me back, and it looks great from your picture.  I really like that picture.  I do think Ellum is about as cool as Dallas gets, which is not saying much, especially for a city that size.  I do agree their transit system is more extensive and growing, but now so is ours.  I'll take pictures of Castleberry Hill and all things warehouse in Atlanta this weekend (wish I could get a weekday, but fresh is better than none).

BTW, just speaking of Dallas, my last roommate was from Dallas (and she's still got some Dallas in her ), but she'll tell anyone "the Big D" just doesn't have the cool factor of Atlanta (or the urban development).  I also just had a friend in from Dallas who I took out on the town for a weekend and we never once used a car.  He was actually in awe of the life and walkability of Midtown.  Granted, Ellum is more convenient to DART than Castleberry or Westside are to MARTA.

[thelakelander]

Lol, I've done the exact same thing in Dallas.  The last two times I haven't rented a car and got everywhere I wanted to go with a combination of DART, the M-Line Trolley and TRE.  I'm getting ready to go to LA and San Diego in two weeks.  I won't be renting a car for that one either.  I'm hoping I can live to see the day where getting around town without a car would be a realistic option for Jacksonville.

[simms3]

Its similar in that there is one dominant street and its linear in nature and their placement in relation to each city's downtown core.  Most of the buildings are also pretty small in terms of scale when compared with some of the other districts discussed here.  What's not similar is that there is nothing equivalent to GT in Jacksonville.

I think you'd be surprised at the size of the buildings.  Your memory is not serving you correctly here, but no worries, I will take pictures this weekend.

In terms of urbanism, I don't get too caught up on who has 5 star restaurants, popular developers and certain chains.  My focus is on if a place is well integrated at the pedestrian level.  Some places that people will call slums happen to be districts I enjoy the most.  For example, the image below was taken in Miami a few years ago.  Its not South Beach but I loved the vibe with the sidewalk.  They pretty much pull up the roll up door and you got quick serve mom & pop cuban cuisine right on the sidewalk.  Definitely, not five star but still generates foot traffic on the street.

Miami has something most cities of today don't, and that is a large, immigrant population.  That is one of the best things about Miami and it helps out a lot.  Atlanta is a large corporate city with a lot of big developers and rich liberals, and so while there are a few areas in Atlanta with pull up mom and pop service, most people have to blow their wad off on national press type developments, which attract the Emory, Tech, UGA, and GSU grads with the "fancy" jobs.  Emory's getting its own taste of the pie now with a development called Emory Point, that is hundreds of millions of dollars and will eventually be connected via MARTA rail by a new line.

They may not get the people dressed in Armani suits or developers building lofts with marble floors but its a vibrant street scene full of local culture.  At the end of the day, that's all I really want for Jacksonville.  A sustainable urban core where people from all walks of life can have access to and enjoy it.  To me it doesn't matter if its upscale or for the common man, as long as its urban I'm cool with it.  On the flip end, if its not sustainable and sprawly, I have issues with it.

Agreed on all points.  Keep in mind financing contingencies, though.  To get financing for rental apartments in intown Atlanta now, lenders have made it clear they need the units to rent out at $1.70 a square foot (a month).  Fortunately there is a market that can support those prices, but unless you're planning an all cash investment (name me one person in Jacksonville who has ever done any project all cash), then lenders are going to require a few things of the development.  Investors are also going to want a certain IRR, but these are for the bigger projects done by the bigger guys.  Jacksonville is not yet on the small stuff (well I guess in Riverside ).

[thelakelander]

I think you'd be surprised at the size of the buildings.  Your memory is not serving you correctly here, but no worries, I will take pictures this weekend.

I was just there three months ago.  I don't think I'm losing my marbles that quick.  Minus the new urban infill, Myrtle resembles more of an unpolised M-Street in terms of urban layout/characteristics than it does with these other districts we've discussed in this thread. 

In terms of urbanism, I don't get too caught up on who has 5 star restaurants, popular developers and certain chains.  My focus is on if a place is well integrated at the pedestrian level.  Some places that people will call slums happen to be districts I enjoy the most.  For example, the image below was taken in Miami a few years ago.  Its not South Beach but I loved the vibe with the sidewalk.  They pretty much pull up the roll up door and you got quick serve mom & pop cuban cuisine right on the sidewalk.  Definitely, not five star but still generates foot traffic on the street.

Miami has something most cities of today don't, and that is a large, immigrant population.  That is one of the best things about Miami and it helps out a lot.  Atlanta is a large corporate city with a lot of big developers and rich liberals, and so while there are a few areas in Atlanta with pull up mom and pop service, most people have to blow their wad off on national press type developments, which attract the Emory, Tech, UGA, and GSU grads with the "fancy" jobs.  Emory's getting its own taste of the pie now with a development called Emory Point, that is hundreds of millions of dollars and will eventually be connected via MARTA rail by a new line.

One of the greatest things about urbanism is that everyplace has its unique quirks, both large and small.  The best ones are those that figure this out and roll with the flow.

They may not get the people dressed in Armani suits or developers building lofts with marble floors but its a vibrant street scene full of local culture.  At the end of the day, that's all I really want for Jacksonville.  A sustainable urban core where people from all walks of life can have access to and enjoy it.  To me it doesn't matter if its upscale or for the common man, as long as its urban I'm cool with it.  On the flip end, if its not sustainable and sprawly, I have issues with it.

Agreed on all points.  Keep in mind financing contingencies, though.  To get financing for rental apartments in intown Atlanta now, lenders have made it clear they need the units to rent out at $1.70 a square foot (a month).  Fortunately there is a market that can support those prices, but unless you're planning an all cash investment (name me one person in Jacksonville who has ever done any project all cash), then lenders are going to require a few things of the development.  Investors are also going to want a certain IRR, but these are for the bigger projects done by the bigger guys.  Jacksonville is not yet on the small stuff (well I guess in Riverside ).

Don't just focus on large scale projects.  One of the greatest benefits in smaller scale structures is that something like a CoRK, Shantytown or a 5th & Liberty can quickly spring up overnight.  Every place and its context is different.  A Springfield or Myrtle Avenue warehouse district will never be a replica of Atlanta's Castleberry Hill.  By the same token, a Castleberry Hill will never be a Myrtle Avenue.

[avs]

One of the big impetuses for the development of Channelside in Tampa was the building of the aquarium and the cruises ships coming in.  Also, back then, Ybor (adjacent) had begun to be more developed and be seen as a "destination."  These are site specific, but all districts have assets they can build on.  Public policy has to encourage that creative development though.  And a city can have more than one warehouse district too.  Maybe Jax has 2-3 smaller ones that each offer something a little unique and make each of them destinations in their own right.  If public policy loosened up of course

[simms3]

Well prepare to have your memory jogged and your mind blown (in that most people simply don't know about Atlanta's industrial/loft side).

I will snap shots of Castleberry and Westside to show activity that goes on in these places, but I will also show 2 warehouse districts that can be equated to what Jacksonville has (albeit on a much larger scale, same type of buildings though) and what Atlanta has done with them.  I will show a warehouse district on Ponce that's already seen some redevelopment and is about to see the largest warehouse redevelopment in history (largest warehouse in the south, and nearly one of the largest buildings in the country period), I will show a warehouse/loft district on the city's east side, including a trio of 3 large buildings (each building is larger than practically any of the Shockoe buildings in Richmond, believe it or not), and I had a friend that lived in one.  Finally, I will touch base with some of the smaller stuff and with Atlantic Station, which is itself a rehabbed warehouse district (most people don't know that...it was the largest brownfield development in the country at the time and it was actually a large steel mill built in 1901).

Most people are very surprised to learn about Atlanta's warehouse stock, but if it were all put together in one district, it would easily blow anything in Nola or Richmond out of the water and compete easily with some of the best the north/midwest has to offer.  What we have done with what we have makes these areas some of the hottest pieces of real estate around.  The difficulty with Atlanta is that visitors get lost, there is no grid, there are large hills, and more tree cover than any other city in America.  It's just difficult to see things.  For those of us who live here, the fun of the city is stumbling on some new spot that blows our mind.  I discover something "new" about 2-3 times a year, and by something I mean an area that's pretty significant.

Most importantly, there are two intown warehouse districts that are very similar to what you have showcased on MetroJax in Springfield and around Myrtle (these aren't 19th century warehouses, but rather mid-century warehouses) that have been redeveloped in fairly significant ways.  One includes Sweetwater Brewery, which is quadrupling in size but is already quite large, and the other includes Atlanta Brewing Company (home to Red Brick Ale).  It would be interesting to see these and the smaller stuff because it's similar to what Jacksonville has.  Even on Marietta, there are quite a few 3-5 floor brick boxes, which we just don't have in Florida (well as you said, Bay Street "had").

To me, Atlanta looks almost more Midwestern than southern in many ways.  Lots of brick, large warehouses, old factories with smoke stacks, etc.  It takes more than a visit to see any of this (though I am surprised you haven't noticed since you have an eye for this stuff).  Combine that with snow in the winter and you really don't think you're in the south at all.