Mayor Questions Validity of JTA's Transportation Center

[jcjohnpaint]

Yeah I think the 'Tea Party' people need to do a little research on the original 'Tea Party' purpose as well... because they got that one wrong too.

[malseedj]

-------- Original Message --------
Subject:    Re: JTA use of Prime Osborne
Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 2011 16:50:42 -0400
From:    John Malseed <malseedj@wdn.com>
To:    Crescimbeni, John <JRC@coj.net>


John,

Do you think you can get the Architect who designed the King Street Parking garage before the City Council and ask him or her about alternate uses for the top floor?  Most parking garages have the significant load bearing capabilities needed to add enclosed space on the top floor.  We could add a HVAC and provide useable working or storage spaces on the top floor.  Perhaps we could move JTA there from their high rent spaces, they own it!  It might make a great location for their proposed Operations Center.

We could use modular construction and simply set the modules on the parking deck making sure that we positioned the load over proper supporting members.  If vibration due to vehicle movement from lower floors is a problem, we can set the modules on isolation mounts.  The parameters of the vibration can be easily measured and the proper mounts obtained. They are used all over earthquake prone areas.  I have been involved with similar solutions  that shock mounted buildings in underground facilities. These facilities were designed to protect computer systems from a nuclear shock wave.  It is not rocket science or costly to provide additional support under the top deck if necessary.

I am very familiar with parking garages. The maintenance costs will increase dramatically as the structure ages unless proper preventative maintenance is provided.  I notice from a GOOGLE photo that the top deck may need sealing.  JTA may be using what is known as the Deferred Maintenance Concept.  It is a recipe for disaster.  It also hides true maintenance costs.

The top deck on a parking structure is usually designed to intercept all the water and prevent it it from reaching other floors.  If the water is not intercepted, It begins to affect the structural integrity of the parking garage due to rusting of the reinforcing bar in the concrete on each level.

I am sending my resume for a bit of background, I speak from years of experience--- I am quite happy working for Lockheed Martin and am currently on long term disability after a bout with cancer.  I am also recovering from broken back, caused by an accident at Saint Vincents Hospital.  No lawsuit, just an accident.

My few points would make a hell of a grilling for Mr. Blalock, one that would show him to be a buffoon in front of the City Council.


V/R

John Malseed
771-6343

On 7/20/2011 12:07 PM, Crescimbeni, John wrote:
>
> Mr. Malseed:
>
> 
>
> Thank you for your email.
>
> 
>
> On a $14 million investment (made in 2001 in the Kings Avenue parking garage) the JTA has â€" for the whole ten year period â€" lost money.
>
> 
>
> On June 17, 2002, Michael Blalock was quoted in the Times Union as stating “my belief is that in three to five years, you won’t be able to get a parking space at Kings Avenue.”  Well it’s now nine years later, not 3-5 years, and there are more than 1,200 spaces (70% of the available parking) available on any given day.
>
> 
>
> This kind of prognostication along with the equally unsuccessful forecasting of 10,000 riders per day on the Skyway Express tells me the JTA has no business being in the land or “commercial” development business.
>
> 
>
> 
>
> John R. Crescimbeni
>
> City Councilman, At-Large, Group 2
>
> Office of the City Council
>
> City Hall at St. James
>
> 117 West Duval Street, Suite 425
>
> Jacksonville, Florida 32202
>
> (904) 630-1381
>
> 
>
> From: John Malseed [mailto:malseedj@wdn.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:39 AM
> To: Crescimbeni, John
> Subject: JTA use of Prime Osborne
>
> 
>
> John,
>
> I am a strong conservative as you.  Corrine Brown is not my favorite Legislator, but she is a supporter of AMTRAK.  In my view JTA is out of control and needs strong management oversight.
>
> I also called you office about the possibility of using the top floor of the parking garage for office space.  That is just one possible use. Perhaps a bit of out of the box thinking is needed to recover from JTA incompetence.
>
> V/R
>
> John Malseed
> 771-6343
>
>
>
> Dear Congresswoman Brown,
>
> An e-mail similar to the one below was sent to our new Mayor Alvin Brown---It suggests extending the AMTRAK Palmetto Train to Jacksonville.  We need to provide a well thought out and doable Regional Transportation Center in Jacksonville.  The overall plan includes moving the bus terminal next to the existing AMTRAK Station.
>
> Staff at JTA does not seem to understand that funding has dried up for grand ventures. We must engineer viable and affordable solutions to our transportation issues.
>
> An additional benefit would be the train maintenance jobs picked up in Jacksonville for the Palmetto, as this would be its terminus.
>
> John Malseed
> 771-6343
>
>
>
> Dear Mayor Brown,
>
> According to AMTRAK records, an average of 193 riders either got off in AMTRAK train in Jacksonville or boarded an AMTRAK train in 2010.  This is a combined total so less than 100 riders came to or departed Jacksonville each day.
>
> The data is included in the attached link---
>
> http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/factsheets/FLORIDA10.pdf
>
> With that poor ridership, how long would it take to pay for the restoration of AMTRAK capability at the Prime Osborne.
>
> Our best bet at this time is the restoration of the Palmetto AMTRAK service to Jacksonville.  This will allow for a evening arrival  from cities North of Jacksonville.  It will also allow an early morning departure to cities North of Jacksonville. The Palmetto currently ends its run in Savannah, Georgia.  We could use  the additional arrivals and departures.  Savannah is shown to have about 180 riders who use the station each day.  That is combined as above so about 90 riders came to or departed Savannah each day
>
> http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/factsheets/GEORGIA10.pdf
>
> This in addition to recommendations in my last e-mail will allow business travelers to actually use AMTRAK for travel to Jacksonville.  An often overlooked fact, is the availability of track time to add additional passenger trains.  Restoring just the Palmetto to terminate in Jacksonville, may require some arm twisting with CSX, to accomplish.
>
> Their is no viable reason on earth to attempt the reuse of the Prime Osborne as a AMTRAK Station or as a Commuter Rail Station.  We have the same problem with limited track South of Jacksonville.  Who is going to pay for the additional track requirements for Commuter Rail?
>
> Adding a Bus Station at the Prime Osborne would end its use as a Convention Center.  I do not know of a Convention Planner, in his or her right mind, who would recommend its use after such a stupid move by the City.  Unless one has lived on another planet there entire life, the fact that Bus Stations draw an unsavory lot, should be well known.
>
> I am a fan of AMTRAK and Commuter Rail.  I just need to see full plans, costs, and proposed schedule before deeding land to JTA as is being done.  In my view our City Council did a poor job on the issue so far.
>
> V/R
>
> John Malseed
> 771-6343

[thelakelander]

Here's more information indicating that the JRTC is extremely too large and out of scale for Jacksonville's needs.

APTA 2011 1st quarter total transit ridership numbers:

St. Louis - 10,062,900

Salt Lake City - 10,204,400

Charlotte - 6,162,600

Jacksonville - 2,804,100*

source: http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2011_q1_ridership_APTA.pdf

* - Since JTA's statistics were not included in the APTA's spreadsheet, I used the 2010 numbers from JTA's FY2010 ridership report:

source: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-oct-jta-transit-ridership-numbers

As far as Amtrak goes (FY2010 total passengers/station):

St. Louis - 321,629

Salt Lake City - 38,773

Jacksonville - 65,051


Intermodal Transportation Center Capital Costs:

St. Louis - $31.4 million

Salt Lake City - $21 million

Jacksonville - $180 million

Any idea of why Jacksonville needs a transportation center that is significantly larger and more expensive than recently constructed centers in peer communities with significantly higher transit ridership?  While I'm certainly a fan of bringing transportation back downtown, the JRTC as proposed is simply out-of-scale and too expensive.  It's time to go back to the drawing board, even if it means delaying things a bit.

[Ocklawaha]

Both photos, new Greyhound MCI E4500 motor coach

With that poor ridership, how long would it take to pay for the restoration of AMTRAK capability at the Prime Osborne.

The pay back isn't going to be Amtrak's responsibility. Done right, converting the Jacksonville Terminal back to its original purpose and adding the other modes of travel should create the critical mass to allow the station to have amenity's such as restaurants, gift shops, pub, news stand etc.. Then the pay back becomes returning economic vitality and expansion to an ailing downtown.

Our best bet at this time is the restoration of the Palmetto AMTRAK service to Jacksonville.  This will allow for a evening arrival  from cities North of Jacksonville

.

The Palmetto has been a political football every since it started running. It has terminated all over the place and been cut, extended and changed more times then I can remember. Currently it is back to its original incarnation as an all day New York-Savannah train. As we have seen before it can easily be terminated in Jacksonville and would be a welcome addition to our lopsided schedules.

Their is no viable reason on earth to attempt the reuse of the Prime Osborne as a AMTRAK Station or as a Commuter Rail Station.  We have the same problem with limited track South of Jacksonville.  Who is going to pay for the additional track requirements for Commuter Rail?

Wrong! There is every reason to bring Amtrak, commuter rail and all of the other players together. From a purely transportation guy standpoint its called CONNECTIONS. The ability to board a train in New York, make a seamless change in Jacksonville to bus and ending your trip in Gainesville, for example. (which is also the reason why the professionals represented on this board are fighting to keep all of the modes under ONE roof - in ONE station). The Jacksonville Terminal revived will bring a much needed boost to our sagging downtown.

As for commuter rail, like Amtrak and the rest of the JRTC, it will be paid for with a combination of local, state and federal grants. CSX is moving its freight off of the A line to Palatka which will open up time slots for both Jacksonville and Orlando.

Adding a Bus Station at the Prime Osborne would end its use as a Convention Center.  I do not know of a Convention Planner, in his or her right mind, who would recommend its use after such a stupid move by the City.  Unless one has lived on another planet there entire life, the fact that Bus Stations draw an unsavory lot, should be well known.

The same might be said for railroad stations, city parks and downtown churches, but that is simply perception and discrimination. The unfortunate and homeless people hang out around the bus station for the same reasons that they hang out in the Library downtown, its a very comfortable, heated and air conditioned space. As a former Transportation Supervisor for Trailways Bus System, I can tell you that the mix on the bus isn't any different then the mix at the airport or train stations. A retiree couple or a college student from a wealthy family going anywhere that doesn't have decent air service, is just as likely to be on that Greyhound as are people from less fortunate social-economic groups. They all share the same key ingredient - they came up with the fare. Done properly nothing will move into the "Prime Osborne" until the Convention business is moved out, the sooner the better.

I would suggest that you and anyone else that believes in the 'bus-trash' theory buys a Greyhound ticket to Daytona Beach, (or Red Coach to Orlando) and find out for yourself that the passengers on the bus are just like all the rest of us.

OCKLAWAHA

[Jaxson]

I agree with Ock about a decent downtown Amtrak terminal bringing consistent business to downtown Jacksonville.  Right now, Clifford Lane is not very inviting and it does not have the nearby dining and lodging for people waiting to board or those who are arriving in town.   I wonder if those bureaucrats at the JTA care that, right now, Amtrak passengers enter our city via an Amtrak station that is more like an afterthought than an actual gateway into a city.

[ChriswUfGator]

I agree with Ock about a decent downtown Amtrak terminal bringing consistent business to downtown Jacksonville.  Right now, Clifford Lane is not very inviting and it does not have the nearby dining and lodging for people waiting to board or those who are arriving in town.   I wonder if those bureaucrats at the JTA care that, right now, Amtrak passengers enter our city via an Amtrak station that is more like an afterthought than an actual gateway into a city.

Well in fairness, there are motels out there, but I think they only rent rooms by the hour.

[tufsu1]

I wonder if those bureaucrats at the JTA care that, right now, Amtrak passengers enter our city via an Amtrak station that is more like an afterthought than an actual gateway into a city.

just to play devil's advocate...why should JTA care about that...after all, their charter is to operate local transit services.

[Jaxson]

I wonder if those bureaucrats at the JTA care that, right now, Amtrak passengers enter our city via an Amtrak station that is more like an afterthought than an actual gateway into a city.

just to play devil's advocate...why should JTA care about that...after all, their charter is to operate local transit services.

That is a good question.  Here is my answer...
JTA is already moving foward, albeit glacially, on bringing Amtrak back downtown.  Since it is a matter of when and not if, why can't JTA get their stuff together and draft a cost-effective plan that does not reinvent the wheel?  Furthermore, Amtrak could have stronger connectivity with local transit if it were located more centrally.

[Jaxson]

I agree with Ock about a decent downtown Amtrak terminal bringing consistent business to downtown Jacksonville.  Right now, Clifford Lane is not very inviting and it does not have the nearby dining and lodging for people waiting to board or those who are arriving in town.   I wonder if those bureaucrats at the JTA care that, right now, Amtrak passengers enter our city via an Amtrak station that is more like an afterthought than an actual gateway into a city.

Well in fairness, there are motels out there, but I think they only rent rooms by the hour.

LOL!

[tufsu1]

That is a good question.  Here is my answer...
JTA is already moving foward, albeit glacially, on bringing Amtrak back downtown.  Since it is a matter of when and not if, why can't JTA get their stuff together and draft a cost-effective plan that does not reinvent the wheel?  Furthermore, Amtrak could have stronger connectivity with local transit if it were located more centrally.

because JTA has no intention of funding the relocation of Amtrak....heck, the Greyhound move is going to require $5 million from the Feds (which is by no means a given).

[Jaxson]

That is a good question.  Here is my answer...
JTA is already moving foward, albeit glacially, on bringing Amtrak back downtown.  Since it is a matter of when and not if, why can't JTA get their stuff together and draft a cost-effective plan that does not reinvent the wheel?  Furthermore, Amtrak could have stronger connectivity with local transit if it were located more centrally.

because JTA has no intention of funding the relocation of Amtrak....heck, the Greyhound move is going to require $5 million from the Feds (which is by no means a given).

JTA funding or not, isn't Amtrak still supposed to be part of the JRTC boondoggle?  The way it is currently designed, it looks more like make work for the beige paint and concrete lobby...

[tufsu1]

I think the Amtrak part, while over designed, is probably the best laid-out part of the current JRTC plan

[buckethead]

I looked in to taking a train to Dallas. It turns out I have to go through DC, onto Chicago, and then to Dallas. Three days. 4-5 times more costly than driving (family of five) but equal +/- to flying.

Wrong thread?

[fsujax]

JTA can only move as fast as Amtrak, FRA and the three major railroad carriers in our area on the Amtrak piece. It is probably the most complicated piece of the JRTC. It is a little more complicated than building a platform and opening up a ticket booth in a trailer.

[duvaldude08]

JTA can only move as fast as Amtrak, FRA and the three major railroad carriers in our area on the Amtrak piece. It is probably the most complicated piece of the JRTC. It is a little more complicated than building a platform and opening up a ticket booth in a trailer.

I agree FSUJAX. That piece is going to take the most work to get accomplished. Its something that will happen like "Ta-da! Here it is." I would imagine there is alot of re-routing and coordinating that will have to take place. And that is easier said than done.