Surface Parking Lots: A Downtown Vibrancy Killer

[Kay]

"I agree that demolition for the sake of demolition is a waste. But demolition to make way for new development is something different, and can be a good thing. There are plenty of cases (particularly in other cities) of positive new developments. One in Jacksonville, I'd argue, is the current Main Library."

"I'd argue the exact opposite.  The new library took out the loft district and Jacksonville's last 1920s era highrise.  It replaced four street frontage blocks of retail frontage with full block dead spaces along Monroe and Duval Streets (Main is borderline dead, imo).  We could have easily put the new library on a surface lot and keep the businesses evicted and the buildings they were housed in.  Such a move would have made the area more vibrant than it is today and saved millions in demolition costs."

Lake:  I couldn't agree more with your take on tearing down those great old buildings for the library.  It was the wrong move. 

[hightowerlover]

i dont envy whoever had to make all those red boxes

[dougskiles]

Thankfully, we still have the Ford Plant.  It could become a great space for artists similar to what has been done at Sloss in Birmingham.  I was there a few weeks ago and took a creative welding class.  It was awesome!

[thelakelander]

Here is what Richmond, CA developers did with their old Ford plant:



http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-mar-ford-assembly-plant-comes-back-to-life

[Ajax]

I'd argue the exact opposite.  The new library took out the loft district and Jacksonville's last 1920s era highrise.  It replaced four street frontage blocks of retail frontage with full block dead spaces along Monroe and Duval Streets (Main is borderline dead, imo).  We could have easily put the new library on a surface lot and keep the businesses evicted and the buildings they were housed in.  Such a move would have made the area more vibrant than it is today and saved millions in demolition costs.

Yes, I remember that block before the library was built and I wish it was still intact.  The Rhodes building along Main Street was beautiful, and after renovation could have made a great apartment/condo/boutique hotel along the lines of what's being proposed with the Laura Street Trio. 

I don't know how to add images so here's a link:
http://www.jaxhistory.com/Jax%20Arch%20Herit/D-84.htm

The entire south wall of the library along Monroe street is useless now.  The only way I can think of to bring life to that part of the sidewalk is to install bouquinistes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouquinistes like they have in Paris, although I realize that would be impractical here. 

[Ocklawaha]

I agree with the article, we have over 40,000 parking spaces in the central metro area. That said however, if those maps were all the same scale it might not look so out of balance with our neighbors. The OKC scale seems to be about twice what our map is, and thus the few central blocks that are surround the CBD would look way different then ours. Likewise, they need to be the same color, empty squares, red boxes etc so that an even comparison can be made at a glance.  Just sayin'.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

^Don't get caught up on looks of the maps.  They're not being shown to make Jacksonville look good or bad.  They aren't the same scale becaus they were provided by several individuals willing to take up the time to highlight surface parking and vacant lots in their downtown cores.  Heck, it took me a week to do Jacksonville's.  I can take any scaled map, place a red dot of the environment around surface lots and another dot around streets with limited lots.  A view from each dot would reveal the same exact thing in every city.  Little vibrancy around surface lots and more walkability were building fabric is in tact.

The point is, surface lots kill and that there is a direct correlation between surface parking lot density and downtown vibrancy.  Those that are vibrant (from as large as NYC to as small as Savannah), tend to have fewer surface parking lots immediately adjacent to one another.  Those that aren't (Jax, Houston and Tulsa for example) tend to be the exact opposite.  So don't worry about how Jax looks on an image compared to some other place.  Let's use the information to fix Jax's issues and make our environmen better.

[heights unknown]

Yes, in my opinion it was bad for downtown (tearing down buildings and leaving vacant lots in their places); real bad. What they should have did was tried to renovate the buildings if they could not find a good use for the property or building, but not tear it down. Renovate the building, refurbish it, and either sell out spaces within it for office or commercial use, or sell the renovated building to someone else for a new use.

"HU"

[ChriswUfGator]

Ironic.

So the first thing I've ever seen DVI get right was releasing these figures showing just how bad of a job they've done.

Brilliant.

Even still, better late than never, glad they've finally put the can of turd-polish away and are acknowledging the issues.

[heights unknown]

Ironic.

So the first thing I've ever seen DVI get right was releasing these figures showing just how bad of a job they've done.

Brilliant.

Even still, better late than never, glad they've finally put the can of turd-polish away and are acknowledging the issues.

Ironic.

So the first thing I've ever seen DVI get right was releasing these figures showing just how bad of a job they've done.

Brilliant.

Even still, better late than never, glad they've finally put the can of turd-polish away and are acknowledging the issues.

Ironic.

So the first thing I've ever seen DVI get right was releasing these figures showing just how bad of a job they've done.

Brilliant.

Even still, better late than never, glad they've finally put the can of turd-polish away and are acknowledging the issues.

Yeah you can't shine sh** with sh**. (LOL)

"HU"

[lewyn]

All very well and good to point out the obvious fact that a downtown dominated by parking is not a good thing.  But the question I wish someone would investigate is: WHY are there so many parking lots?  Is it because of municipal requirements?  Or because downtown landowners are holding land as parking lots until property values increase enough to justify something more productive?  Or because improvements are taxed more than parking? (or some other reason I haven't thought of)

[ChriswUfGator]

A combination of all three, and heavily the latter two. Downtown zoning and building codes are a mess. And the problem with the guys who think they're going to get rich hanging onto empty buildings and vacant lots is that it's a self-defeating enterprise, when you get enough of those guys (which is 2/3'rds of our downtown at this point) their own outrageous rent demands and sitting on property rather than allowing to serve its best use under whatever market conditions exist actually prevent the type of development from occurring that they are banking on raising their property values over time. Sitting and holding can work OK if it's one or two guys doing it, but when you have a whole parade of them controlling most of a downtown, their actions in aggregate actually stifle economic activity.

And COJ hasn't discouraged any of this, either, designing a set of parking enforcement policies that for years created an artificially inflated risk/benefit ratio for parking lot operators. Although the collapse of downtown is now so complete that even draconian parking enforcement is unable to make the lots and garages pay, as there are simply no longer enough people down there to fill even a paltry number of the available parking spaces.

Stephen Dare and I counted up various reports and estimates, and finally figured the accurate number of parking spaces is somewhere around 30,000 and 35,000 and that there somewhere less than 8,000 workers downtown now. So each individual worker would have to bring 4 or 5 cars with them every day before we'd even use what's there, let alone start to have a shortage.

Yet, for some reason, the usual suspects continue wanting to include new parking garages with every proposed project. Which seems mystifying, until it was revealed that the taxpayers are actually subsidizing the operation of many of these garages through contracts that guarantee the owner's profit regardless of whether the garage is unused. Which most of them are. Which explains things. It's just a money-grab.

I am hoping these issues are addressed with the new administration.

[Ralph W]

Yet, for some reason, the usual suspects continue wanting to include new parking garages with every proposed project. Which seems mystifying, until it was revealed that the taxpayers are actually subsidizing the operation of many of these garages through contracts that guarantee the owner's profit regardless of whether the garage is unused. Which most of them are. Which explains things. It's just a money-grab.

I am hoping these issues are addressed with the new administration.

How much longer do these graft-like contracts have before sunset? Why were they set up that way in the first place? Were the city father's heads so far into the sand they could not see daylight? Did any of those city fathers benefit from these contracts?

[thelakelander]

All very well and good to point out the obvious fact that a downtown dominated by parking is not a good thing.  But the question I wish someone would investigate is: WHY are there so many parking lots?  Is it because of municipal requirements?  Or because downtown landowners are holding land as parking lots until property values increase enough to justify something more productive?  Or because improvements are taxed more than parking? (or some other reason I haven't thought of)

The answer is quite simple and one we've answered over time with several past articles.  The moonscape we have on our hands today is the result of a wide variety of reasons.  Every surface lot has it's own story.  The majority of lots east of Broad came about from a plan to eliminate an Africian American neighborhood that city and civic leaders saw as blight.  People were eminent domained out of their homes and businesses and city tore them down.  Some along the skyway's path (such as the dirt lots bounded by Lee, Bay, Jefferson and Water) were blocks of buildings torn down to make way for the initial line to the convention center. 

Others were torn down for new developments that for whatever reason never got off the ground.  Examples of these include the Shipyards and the retail blocks along the southside of Forsyth between Laura and Ocean Streets.  Others had buildings on them that burned or collapsed, such as the old Arcade Theater between Adams and Forsyth.   Another group was torn down for surface parking because that was a cheaper option than paying taxes on an empty multistory building.  Examples include the George Washington Hotel and the old hotels along Clay Street, between Forsyth and Adams. 

Then you have lots created by owners like KBJ, who just didn't want to pay for the upkeep of historic buildings on their property, but also didn't want to give up the rights to the land that sat underneath them.    Then there's another group that came down for failed redevelopment schemes of creating mall like park spaces throughout DT.  Portions of the hole that is now Main Street are a result of this tear it down and start over mentality.  All in all, over the last forty years all of these individual acts have combined to contribute to the mess that is DT Jacksonville today.

[simms3]

Well if there is any hope, Chicago used to have a similar proportion of surface parking as recently as the 1980s and early 1990s (in Streeterville, north of the river, and all up and down Michigan Ave).  Frankly, what is there now was complete wasteland when I was a kid.  In fact, I am on record with my friends/associates predicting that Atlanta in 2020 will be where Chicago was in 1990.  That's a 50 year gap.  That provides hope for Jacksonville to be where say Seattle or Minneapolis are in 40-50 years (and in terms of urban core development, both of those cities are slightly ahead of Atlanta today...so Jax could be looking pretty good when we are still alive Heh).