Lessons from Greece or Germany?

[NotNow]

We have already supported our opinion with facts.  If you think differently, then YOU state YOUR reasons.   I'm sure Sigma doesn't care what you say.  Frankly, I see very little reason to continue to converse with you as well.  I find the name calling  and unscrupulous debate tactics distasteful.

[BridgeTroll]

I dont care what you guys think of sigmas statement, frankly.

Either you can discuss this with facts, or you cant.  But I will not further discuss Sigma or his points.

BridgeTroll, to your assertions:

1.  European paid holidays and vacation time are massive ever growing government sponsored programs.

Can you back this up with a few facts?  What qualifies them as 'massive' or 'ever growing'?  Are they government sponsored?  In what way?

2.  Huge public workforces and accompanying unions. 

What is your intention in including this sentence?  Are you identifying these two facts as part of a 'european' system?

3.  Greece teeters on the edge of civil war because the government needs to cut benefits and wages AND raise taxes just to get a loan to pay the bills. 

Why does Greece need to do these things, Bridge Troll?  What was the cause of this need to cut benefits and wages and raise taxes simultaneously?

Does the government just need to do these things?  Or is it responding to some other set of needs?

4.  The authors rightly acknowledge that if a similar circumstance should befall Germany... Anarchy would reign.

How do they demonstrate this?

In any case.

Other than these attributes, are there any others that you would list as a 'European System'?

And what would you say are the elements which are inherently 'unsustainable'?

What facts are you basing this opinion on?

To have a discussion Stephen... you must contribute.  I have made more than a few statements of opinion regarding the article and topic but you seem to not want to respond.  Before I go any further... I would like to know what you think of the conclusions of the authors of the article I posted.  I posted some conclusions... others have as well... please add to the discussion.

[BridgeTroll]

Most of the stuff listed is pretty common knowledge... having spent some time in Europe you are well aware of the 4 weeks vacation time (many get 6 and .  Government's employ many people in jobs that here are private sector and government pensions are very generous... feel free to dispute these things as perhaps they are urban myth...

The Greeks have had to cut back on these expensive bennies and the people are revolting.  The authors of the article think the German people would do the same if the circumstances were the same.

[Dog Walker]

Greece's government is corrupt and inefficient.  The Greek people know this so avoid paying taxes both as a form of protest and, because of the inefficiency and corruption, they are not likely to be caught or punished for it.  Greece is highly dependent on tourism and agricultural exports for the national economy.  Much the same can be said for Italy, Spain and Portugal, although Northern Italy is a manufacturing powerhouse.

German government is both clean and efficient.  Most Germans are scrupulous about paying their taxes. (Although they grumble about them like everybody else in the world.)   Because of their excellent, well-run educational system, Germany is able to manufacture high-value, high-intellectual content goods that they sell to the rest of the world.  The are especially proficient at making machines that make other things.

The more like the German, French, Scandinavian model it is the more "sustainable" the European model is.  The more like Greece, Spain, Italy the European model is, the less likely it is to survive.

IMO, for ideological reasons they expanded to European Union to far and too fast and included countries that do not have governments effective enough for the disciplines necessary to sustain a single currency.  They need to kick Greece out, take the pain and hope that the example will make Spain and Italy straighten out in time to stay in the Union.

[Sigma]

(CNN) -- You're not imagining it. The United Nations' International Labor Organization (ILO) has the proof:

"Workers in the United States are putting in more hours than anyone else in the industrialized world."

Germans worked roughly 500 hours, or 12-and-a-half weeks, less than careerists in the States.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/trends/08/30/ilo.study/

Apparently, one can find several studies online with various figures through a quick google search.  Hey, just find the figures that support your argument and post those!

And according to Stephen's source - its also apparent that I work twice the hours as the average American.

But I also did some further reading from that source since there were asterisks indicating a footnote - and here is what the quick statistic doesn't tell us - In the U.S., 85.8 percent of males and 66.5 percent of females work more than 40 hours per week.

[St. Auggie]

The US created a risk reward system to create a country of untold riches, mission accomplished in that our GDP is about that of the next 5 countries COMBINED. This means everything costs more here. You can't do it with our current system. It's evident in Medicare, caid , and SS. Everything needs redone to have European type entitlement programs. From med school to lawyers to tax code. Without? By a gas mask and stockpile supplies.

[BridgeTroll]

Actually Bridge Troll, I havent posted anything at all except as a question.

Sigma's response is typically stupid, as it not only doesnt answer the question, but completely evades it and instead creates another fictionalized hypothesis.

Im interested in having the discussion with you, (and anyone else, for that matter) however, I want to respect your opinion enough to understand what you are saying before debating what I think you are saying.

So.  What parts of the 'european system' are you referring to that are 'unsustainable'?

Why do you think they are unsustainable?

What facts are you using to back up that claim?

What standards of success or failure are you using to gauge the 'european system'?

I don't think Sigmas responce was stupid either.  The writers of the article also implied the model was not sustainable.  Using Greece as the example... We could find ourselves in a similar situation but with China calling the shots.  Let me use Sigmas quote as an example...

increase worker productivity, curb government, prune the power of public-employee unions, bring market-based incentives back into the workplace, reestablish national sovereignty, raise the retirement age,

European paid holidays and vacation time are massive, ever growing government sponsored programs, huge public workforces and accompanying unions.  Greece teeters on the edge of civil war because the government needs to cut benefits and wages AND raise taxes just to get a loan to pay the bills.  The authors rightly acknowledge that if a similar circumstance should befall Germany... Anarchy would reign.

Actually Bridge Troll, I havent posted anything at all except as a question.

I know... Please comment on the article I posted.

Hmmm...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/15/business/global/china-urges-us-to-take-responsible-action-on-debt.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

China Urges U.S. to Protect Creditors by Raising DebtBy BETTINA WASSENER
Published: July 14, 2011

HONG KONG â€" China, the United States’ biggest creditor, urged the United States government on Thursday to act to protect investors’ interests, highlighting rising concerns around the globe about the protracted budget talks taking place in Washington....

[jaxnative]

From an article written in 2007:

[/qEurosceptics are criticized for wanting the advantages of being in a free-trade area and avoiding any disadvantages. As the ultimate aim is creation of a single market, the EU officials believe that member states must work together as one collective entity â€" and that means drawbacks must be tolerated. This is precisely what is required under an egalitarian ideology, which hinders the progress of those who are able and willing. According to EU officials, a single market will lead to an evenly developed Europe. Therefore in the name of the single market, they attempt to consolidate and harmonize differences.


The efforts inevitably result in confiscation from some, which is redistributed to others. The recipients would welcome this, yet discontent among those who pay is growing. This is completely the opposite of what free trade calls for. Under free trade, parties voluntarily enter into an agreement to exchange goods and services. This would only happen if it puts both parties in a better position than they would otherwise be. Both of them gain from this voluntary exchange. Otherwise they would not enter into an agreement. If force is used so that one party is compelled to give to another, this would not represent a voluntary exchange.

Conclusion


With the egalitarian ideology at its core, the EU is heading in a direction that is opposite its original destination. The aim of the EU officials is to create a collective block and to build a high fortress around it. That block will hamper the growth of Europe. Instead of truly fostering free trade, EU regulations and directives hold back those who endeavor to progress; indeed such efforts are frowned upon. It is one thing to devise policies founded on egalitarianism but quite another to implement them as if they are based on the ideas of free exchange.

Withdrawal is often regarded as too drastic a measure. But the consequences of withdrawal will not be as devastating as they are often perceived. Reforms to make the EU organizations efficient will be a thing of perpetuity. The organizations will grow bulky every year as committees are set up to solve problems that are self-generated.


If a country is penalized for its withdrawal by, for instance, trade sanctions, the coercive element involved in being a member of the EU will only be highlighted. Without the drawbacks of the collective entity, Europeans can progress as individuals. A fortress is not necessary to "protect" talented, intelligent and innovative Europeans.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
uote]
http://mises.org/daily/2536/The-Future-of-the-European-Union

[BridgeTroll]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/20/opinion/20friedman.html?_r=1

Can Greeks Become Germans?

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: July 19, 2011

Katerina Sokou, 37, a Greek financial journalist at Kathimerini, a daily newspaper, told me this story: A group of German members of the Bavarian Parliament came to Athens shortly after the economic crisis erupted here and met with some Greek politicians, academics, journalists and lawyers at a taverna to evaluate the Greek economy. Sokou said her impression was that the Germans were trying to figure out whether they should be lending money to Greece for a bailout. It was like one nation interviewing another for a loan. “They were not here as tourists; we were giving data on how many hours we work,” recalled Sokou. “It really felt like we had to persuade them about our values.”

Sokou’s observation reminded me of a point made to me by Dov Seidman, the author of the book “How” and the C.E.O. of LRN, which helps companies build ethical business cultures. The globalization of markets and people has intensified to a new degree in the last five years, with the emergence of social networking, Skype, derivatives, fast wireless connectivity, cheap smartphones and cloud computing. “When the world is bound together this tightly,” argued Seidman, “everyone’s values and behavior matter more than ever, because they impact so many more people than ever. ...We’ve gone from connected to interconnected to ethically interdependent.”

As it becomes harder to shield yourself from the other guy’s irresponsible behavior, added Seidman, both he and you had better behave more responsibly â€" or you both will suffer the consequences, whether you did anything wrong or not. This is doubly true when two different countries share the same currency but not the same government. That’s why this story is not just about interest rates. It’s about values. Germans are now telling Greeks: “We’ll loan you more money, provided that you behave like Germans in how you save, how many hours a week you work, how long a vacation you take, and how consistently you pay your taxes.”

Alas, though, these two countries are so culturally different. They remind you of a couple about whom you ask after their divorce: “How did the two of them ever think they could be married?”

Germany is the epitome of a country that made itself rich by making stuff. Greece, alas, after it joined the European Union in 1981, actually became just another Middle East petro-state â€" only instead of an oil well, it had Brussels, which steadily pumped out subsidies, aid and euros with low interest rates to Athens.

Natural resources create corruption, as groups compete for who controls the tap. That is exactly what happened in Greece when it got access to huge Euro-loans and subsidies. The natural entrepreneurship of Greeks was channeled in the wrong direction â€" in a competition for government funds and contracts. To be sure, it wasn’t all squandered. Greece had a real modernization spurt in the 1990s. But after 2002, it put its feet up, thinking it had arrived, and too much “Euro-oil” from the European Union went back to financing a corrupt, patrimonial system whereby politicians dispensed government jobs and projects to localities in return for votes. This reinforced a huge welfare state, where young people dreamed of a cushy government job and everyone from cabdrivers to truckers to pharmacists to lawyers was allowed to erect barriers to entry that artificially inflated prices.

European Union membership “was a big opportunity for development, and we wasted it,” explained Dimitris Bourantas, a professor of management at Athens University. “We also did not take advantage of the markets of the [formerly] socialist countries around Greece. And we also did not take advantage of the growth of the global economy. We lost them all because the political system was focused on growing public administration â€" not on [fostering] entrepreneurship, competition or industrial strategy or competitive advantages. We created a state with big inefficiencies, corruption and a very large bureaucracy. We were the last Soviet country in Europe.”

That is why, he added, that Greeks, when they move to the U.S., “unleash their skills and entrepreneurship” in ways that enable them to thrive in commerce. But here in Greece, the system encourages just the opposite. Investors here tell you that the red tape involved in starting a new business is overwhelming. It’s crazy; Greece is the only country in the world where Greeks don’t behave like Greeks. Their welfare state, financed by Euro-oil, has bred it out of them.

With the decline of Beirut and Dubai, Athens should have become the service center of the Eastern Mediterranean. Instead, Cyprus and Istanbul seized that role. Greece must not waste this crisis. While it has instituted some reforms in the last year, Prime Minister George Papandreou said to me, “What is most frustrating is the resistance in the system. How do you produce a change in culture?”

It will take a cultural revolution. And that can happen only if Greece’s two major parties come together, hold hands, and collectively force through a radical change in the governing culture from the top down. Without that, Greece will never be able to pay back its loans.

[Dog Walker]

Hmmm,  maybe it's that only certain KINDS of Greeks immigrate here.  Sometimes I think that there is a conceptual and moral comb that sweeps across the world and separates out certain kinds of adventurous people to deposit them here in the US.

What does it take to be discontented enough in Greece or any other developed country to pick up and move to a place that is alien to your language and culture?  That's a pretty tough filter, isn't it?

[JeffreyS]

Lessons from Greece or Germany? Hmmmm ok I'll vote Germany.

[BridgeTroll]

The lesson I take away from this... to date... is that Greece is so deep in debt that Germany and and the EU are telling Greece what it MUST do to recieve loans to stay afloat.  Even worse... the population is so dependant on government jobs and pensions that the austerity required may not even be possible.  In fact the author of the original article in this post questions whether the people of Germany could handle the pain Greece is and is going to suffer.  Is this a road that this country wants to explore?

[Garden guy]

We should be taking lessons from the Swedish...they tally up the cost to run the country....then they set the tax rate...all is paid for and all put in for the bill....no problems...

[JeffreyS]

The lesson I take away from this... to date... is that Greece is so deep in debt that Germany and and the EU are telling Greece what it MUST do to recieve loans to stay afloat.  Even worse... the population is so dependant on government jobs and pensions that the austerity required may not even be possible.  In fact the author of the original article in this post questions whether the people of Germany could handle the pain Greece is and is going to suffer.  Is this a road that this country wants to explore?

Good thoughts and the answer is no we do not want to explore that road.  The way we avoid that road is reduce military spending (honestly if England and France can't handle Libya themselves they need to pony up) and get the large corporations effective tax rate up from < 2% to a floor of 10%.  How hard is this? Again I have the answer not hard at all.

[buckethead]

We are so far from being capable of a meaningful debate about what the role of government should be.

You need to take in enough money to cover your expenses. You must not (on a regular basis) spend more than you take in. Until we rectify these universal truths to our reality, the rest is hogwash. The road to serfdom indeed.