STREETCAR NOW JACKSONVILLE!

[thelakelander]

Quote from the Mobility Plan (Section 10.4 - Pg 40 on priority project funding)

Because it is uncertain exactly where and on what schedule development will occur in the City of Jacksonville between 2011 and 2021, it is recommended that these projects be considered for year five of the CIE.  As the fees are collected and allocated to the projects, project phases can be advanced to earlier years and implemented as funding becomes available.

It's a 10-year priority project, which basically means its estimated to take 10-years to generate the $50 million.  With that said, my suggestion would be as the money comes in, go ahead and get your studies, public feedback, design & engineering out of the way.  This stuff doesn't cost much so hopefully there will be funds for this over the next 2 or 3 years, if only relying on mobility fee funds.  Having these things completed as soon as possible, gives us the opportunity to go after other financial pots and opportunities as they present themselves (like public/private partnerships and the Fed's Urban Circulator or TIGER I & II grants from the last couple of years).  

Also, the $50 million breaks down to something like $14 million/mile.  Realistically speaking, it doesn't take that much to build a streetcar system.  We should be able to build a streetcar for $10 million or under, which means we won't need the full $50 million if we design a style of system that can be built for less (ex. single track with passing sidings, simple stops instead of stations, initially heritage instead of modern cars, etc.).  As proof, Kenosha's 2-mile line cost $5 million and Little Rock's was around $8 million/mile.  So at the end of the day, the time line can be flexible and be as fast or slow to implement, depending on the style of operations and design we're shooting for (both of which impact capital and O&M costs).

[thelakelander]

Btw, Oak between Five Points and King Street is pretty ideal.  It has a good mix of multifamily residential, offices, commercial and mixed use buildings (most were originally TOD due the streetcar that operated along that stretch).  Here are a few images of buildings along this stretch of Oak Street.













Given the street's width, you could get your streetcar back in there, still leave it open for automobile use and cram a bikeway in there, which would help reduce auto/bike conflict on Park Street and Riverside Avenue.  It would also provide a huge boost to the underutilized commercial properties along this stretch that haven't been the same since the original streetcar system was removed 75 years ago.

[FayeforCure]

Oak St because it would conflict less with automobiles and if you made it a transit/bike path it would be safer for bikes.

The problem with Oak is the streetcar would have to bisect the parks when it is expanded. Riverside is a clean shot through all of Riverside/Avondale with no dead-ends and has plenty of room for the tracks.

I completely agree. Space considerations.........causing the least displacement and most direct route seems the most efficient use of scarce resources. And since these routes are all close together, the ridership differences should be minimal.

[Ralph W]

What is it about the people in charge of getting things done in this city? This study crap goes on and on and brings in OUTSIDE consultants so often that I am convinced that the people in charge should be let go immediately and a group of chimps hired to pound out the decisions.

Case in point: A while back an outside firm was paid big bucks to evaluate our library system. WTF? We have a highly educated, well traveled, speaking circuit Director of our library system who cannot, on her own, develop the same information for which someone paid big bucks? You can't use the excuse that the study was paid for by ?Friends of the Library? or a source not our tax dollars. The fact is the study was done and it was NOT done in house by supposedly competent people already on the payroll.

If that 's how we must operate, then we really don't need directors or in house planning staffs. Just save the payroll and benefits packages and have a secretary hire an outside firm every time a decision must be made.

Back to the streetcar study:

If it is true that all previous studies have been cobbled together from MJ facts and study results and presented as original work for large bucks then something smells like my garbage can in full sunlight - BAD! It appears that all the competent works has already been done and has been published and debated and modified and published again and again -for FREE - right here on MJ.

All those little monkeys sitting hunched over behind their desks jealously guarding their own pitiful piles of sh!t.  (I had a cartoon of that somewhere).

[thelakelander]

Taking a stab in the dark, I'd say there would be a huge difference in ridership between Park and Riverside.  Riverside directly hits several major cultural and employment destinations like BCBS, Fidelity, Everbank, Cummer, St. Vincent's, Memorial Park, Publix, etc.  Don't underestimate the value of having mass transit get you as close to as many major destinations as possible. A number of these places have actual parking problems and would directly benefit from improved mass transit past their front door.  Going down Park gets you closer to the heart of the residential district but ridership to the major employment destinations would drop off (there is a huge difference in between being right next door and a three block walk in the Florida sun while dressed in a suit or casual, imo).  

[JeffreyS]

Oak is the straightest line. Drive Oak it was designed as a streetcar lane because it had a streetcar.  

[JeffreyS]

Here is my study. Actual streetcar in Jax has been (not forecast or predicted) so successful that giant corporations (GM and Ford) bought them and scrapped them so they could actually sell some buses.  This is not hypothetical we have the true real life proof of viability. 

[Tacachale]

Would there be much ridership difference between the routes depending on the times the streetcar would be running? For instance if it continued running at night vs. running only during the day as the current trolley buses do?

[Ocklawaha]

Would there be much ridership difference between the routes depending on the times the streetcar would be running? For instance if it continued running at night vs. running only during the day as the current trolley buses do?

This is the main reason for a quick study on route selection, something going on down on Riverside at 9pm may not be something going on over on Park. Knowing what rolls when would be helpful as TUFSU has said with ordering cars and obtaining operators.



I think Tampa and Little Rock to some extent did this the hard way, this isn't BRT it is STREETCAR, as in 'STREET', private right-of-way is nice and would make for faster schedules but at a cost to those who must drive. The best answer I believe is the passive streetcar lanes, where the area along the track is paved much like the new Laura Street intersections downtown, cobblestone, or brick, that way you MAY drive on it if you need to get around someone broke down, or stuck in traffic, but you sure as hell won't drive on it long.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

This is the main reason for a quick study on route selection, something going on down on Riverside at 9pm may not be something going on over on Park. Knowing what rolls when would be helpful as TUFSU has said with ordering cars and obtaining operators.

Another reason that Oak makes a lot of sense.  You're closer to the dense residential while still being in very close proximity of the employment/entertainment/cultural generators. I think the Jacksonville Traction Company got it right so we may not need to overthink this.  

The best answer I believe is the passive streetcar lanes, where the area along the track is paved much like the new Laura Street intersections downtown, cobblestone, or brick, that way you MAY drive on it if you need to get around someone broke down, or stuck in traffic, but you sure as hell won't drive on it long.

Things like adding brick and pavers into the project could raise the cost, so perhaps going green makes more sense?


Strasbourg, France (by GEO.Hellas - http://www.flickr.com/photos/13616754@N03/3900750253/)


Paris tram by gunzel412 at http://www.flickr.com/photos/gunzel412/3122764727/


Fort Collins, CO trolley. Image by Makeesha at http://www.flickr.com/photos/inhiscourts/249816107/


Fort Collins, CO trolley. Image by snowride007 at http://www.flickr.com/photos/snowride007/2840172954/

[iMarvin]

Taking a stab in the dark, I'd say there would be a huge difference in ridership between Park and Riverside.  Riverside directly hits several major cultural and employment destinations like BCBS, Fidelity, Everbank, Cummer, St. Vincent's, Memorial Park, Publix, etc.  Don't underestimate the value of having mass transit get you as close to as many major destinations as possible. A number of these places have actual parking problems and would directly benefit from improved mass transit past their front door.  Going down Park gets you closer to the heart of the residential district but ridership to the major employment destinations would drop off (there is a huge difference in between being right next door and a three block walk in the Florida sun while dressed in a suit or casual, imo).  

If a streetcar is built down Riverside, it doesn't mean the people working along the street would use it. It depends on where they live. You could use the same argument for the skyway but I prefer skyway on Riverside over streetcar because the skyway is already there. That's why I like Park

I think Tampa and Little Rock to some extent did this the hard way, this isn't BRT it is STREETCAR, as in 'STREET', private right-of-way is nice and would make for faster schedules but at a cost to those who must drive. The best answer I believe is the passive streetcar lanes, where the area along the track is paved much like the new Laura Street intersections downtown, cobblestone, or brick, that way you MAY drive on it if you need to get around someone broke down, or stuck in traffic, but you sure as hell won't drive on it long.

OCKLAWAHA

I agree. The streetcar doesn't need an exclusive lane. So no need for any road widening. Park could potentially get more traffic from TOD's and hi-rises, but most would just use the streetcar.

[thelakelander]

If a streetcar is built down Riverside, it doesn't mean the people working along the street would use it. It depends on where they live. You could use the same argument for the skyway but I prefer skyway on Riverside over streetcar because the skyway is already there. That's why I like Park

Of course.  However, from a holistic viewpoint, this line is much larger than Riverside and Riverside certainly can't support it on its own.  Its part of a series of mass transit improvements intended to one day be a part of a regional integrated system.  With that in mind, connections to major employers, retail districts, medical centers, parks, etc. have to be a major consideration in final route selection.  In addition, feeder routes via modifying regular city bus routes and adding bike/pedestrian facilities to provide better access to other parts of the neighborhood also have to be considered and integrated.

think Tampa and Little Rock to some extent did this the hard way, this isn't BRT it is STREETCAR, as in 'STREET', private right-of-way is nice and would make for faster schedules but at a cost to those who must drive. The best answer I believe is the passive streetcar lanes, where the area along the track is paved much like the new Laura Street intersections downtown, cobblestone, or brick, that way you MAY drive on it if you need to get around someone broke down, or stuck in traffic, but you sure as hell won't drive on it long.

OCKLAWAHA

I agree. The streetcar doesn't need an exclusive lane. So no need for any road widening. Park could potentially get more traffic from TOD's and hi-rises, but most would just use the streetcar.

There is definitely no need for road widening.  I'd suggest reducing lane widths on several of the streets in areas like Riverside, DT and Springfield to provide space for additional modes like streetcar and bikes.

[Ocklawaha]

We fully agree Lake, you know I've never given up the hope to see the return of the "Most BEAUTIFUL..." again, and I think we could pull it off for a bargain price. Pavers are expensive true, but impressed asphalt and/or concrete can be stained with color mixed in, and applied probably for less then the extra curb or other sepperators would cost.

This Belgin block driveway is just simple concrete with color.

Where do y'all think we could steal enough room to create a green median? Park between the Lee Street Viaduct and Forest if we went to 2 traffic lanes, Park in Riverside offers some chances for side of the road running in the grass between pavement and sidewalk. Stockton, Edgewood, Main, maybe Newnan, Water west of Jefferson and west Bay between the Jacksonville Terminal THROUGH Myrtle to about 3 blocks south of Dennis. Myrtle north all the way to 'GEORGIA!'

OCKLAWAHA

[iMarvin]

If a streetcar is built down Riverside, it doesn't mean the people working along the street would use it. It depends on where they live. You could use the same argument for the skyway but I prefer skyway on Riverside over streetcar because the skyway is already there. That's why I like Park

Of course.  However, from a holistic viewpoint, this line is much larger than Riverside and Riverside certainly can't support it on its own.  Its part of a series of mass transit improvements intended to one day be a part of a regional integrated system.  With that in mind, connections to major employers, retail districts, medical centers, parks, etc. have to be a major consideration in final route selection.  In addition, feeder routes via modifying regular city bus routes and adding bike/pedestrian facilities to provide better access to other parts of the neighborhood also have to be considered and integrated.

think Tampa and Little Rock to some extent did this the hard way, this isn't BRT it is STREETCAR, as in 'STREET', private right-of-way is nice and would make for faster schedules but at a cost to those who must drive. The best answer I believe is the passive streetcar lanes, where the area along the track is paved much like the new Laura Street intersections downtown, cobblestone, or brick, that way you MAY drive on it if you need to get around someone broke down, or stuck in traffic, but you sure as hell won't drive on it long.

OCKLAWAHA

I agree. The streetcar doesn't need an exclusive lane. So no need for any road widening. Park could potentially get more traffic from TOD's and hi-rises, but most would just use the streetcar.

There is definitely no need for road widening.  I'd suggest reducing lane widths on several of the streets in areas like Riverside, DT and Springfield to provide space for additional modes like streetcar and bikes.

Top quote: If the skyway wasn't already on Riverside, I would agree with you. Putting it on Park would give it direct access to the JRTC and would be more centralized. In 5-10 years when they do the re-evaluation thing, they will add a skyway extension after they see the success of the streetcar going down Park. Riverside is a busy road and all, but with the skyway already there, there's no reason not to extend it down the street.

Bottom quote: I agree. Plenty of streets throughout the urban core could be reduced to make room for bike lanes, etc.

[Ocklawaha]

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OCKLAWAHA