Republicans, Abortion, Women's Rights, and the challenges facing them.

[copperfiend]

GG, some people should be given an award for having the foresight to throw that sperm away!

And I am surprised you do not understand the process to actually create a human life, but it takes a little more than a tissue full of sperm.

But back to your original topic, why is it so horrendous (other than the waste of money) to have a sonogram prior to an abortion?

Why should the government require one? And what happened to government interference and government waste?

[buckethead]

here we go into another fruitless abortion debate, buuuut...

A fetus in it's third trimester is no longer a "blob of cells" but a human (At least IMO). If our newly formed fellow citizen likes Bach, we should demand her right to live. If she likes Jimmy Buffet.... not so much.

Is she a human that deserves the protections of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness provided by the constitution?

Some say no.

Many say yes, and it is not an invalid argument, although I am expecting some (as Madeline would say to the lion at the zoo) poo poo.

Madeline, in case you didn't know, is a little female human in a book series for young female humans who made it past the knife.

Clever girl.

[Garden guy]

GG, some people should be given an award for having the foresight to throw that sperm away!

And I am surprised you do not understand the process to actually create a human life, but it takes a little more than a tissue full of sperm.

But back to your original topic, why is it so horrendous (other than the waste of money) to have a sonogram prior to an abortion?

I find it just as rediculous to ask a woman about her "private" issues as it is rediculous to tell a man that he "must" use his sperm to make a baby and can't waist it!....it's all private and none of anyones business...period.

[Jimmy]

Let's take the libertarian tact.  Why should the government mandate that anyone be allowed to invade my body with a medical device absent my consent?  Worse, be forced to undergo a sub dermal scanning procedure.  Search and seizure ends at my skin in plain sight, absent probable cause.

[uptowngirl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

Intact D&X surgeryUnder the Intact D&X method, the largest part of the fetus (the head) is reduced in diameter to allow vaginal passage. According to the American Medical Association, this procedure has four main elements.[3] First, the cervix is dilated. Second, the fetus is positioned for a footling breech. Third, the fetus is partially pulled out, starting with the feet, as far as the neck. Fourth, the brain and material inside the skull is evacuated, so that a dead but otherwise intact fetus can be delivered via the vagina.

Usually, preliminary procedures are performed over a period of two to three days, to gradually dilate the cervix using laminaria tents (sticks of seaweed which absorb fluid and swell). Sometimes drugs such as pitocin, a synthetic form of oxytocin, are used to induce labor. Once the cervix is sufficiently dilated, the doctor uses an ultrasound and forceps to grasp the fetus's leg. The fetus is turned to a breech position, if necessary, and the doctor pulls one or both legs out of the cervix, which some refer to as 'partial birth' of the fetus. The doctor subsequently extracts the rest of the fetus, leaving only the head still inside the uterus. An incision is made at the base of the skull, a blunt dissector (such as a Kelly clamp) is inserted into the incision and opened to widen the opening,[4] and then a suction catheter is inserted into the opening. The brain is suctioned out, which causes the skull to collapse and allows the fetus to pass more easily through the cervix. The placenta is removed and the uterine wall is vacuum aspirated using a cannula.[5]

[Garden guy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

Intact D&X surgeryUnder the Intact D&X method, the largest part of the fetus (the head) is reduced in diameter to allow vaginal passage. According to the American Medical Association, this procedure has four main elements.[3] First, the cervix is dilated. Second, the fetus is positioned for a footling breech. Third, the fetus is partially pulled out, starting with the feet, as far as the neck. Fourth, the brain and material inside the skull is evacuated, so that a dead but otherwise intact fetus can be delivered via the vagina.

Usually, preliminary procedures are performed over a period of two to three days, to gradually dilate the cervix using laminaria tents (sticks of seaweed which absorb fluid and swell). Sometimes drugs such as pitocin, a synthetic form of oxytocin, are used to induce labor. Once the cervix is sufficiently dilated, the doctor uses an ultrasound and forceps to grasp the fetus's leg. The fetus is turned to a breech position, if necessary, and the doctor pulls one or both legs out of the cervix, which some refer to as 'partial birth' of the fetus. The doctor subsequently extracts the rest of the fetus, leaving only the head still inside the uterus. An incision is made at the base of the skull, a blunt dissector (such as a Kelly clamp) is inserted into the incision and opened to widen the opening,[4] and then a suction catheter is inserted into the opening. The brain is suctioned out, which causes the skull to collapse and allows the fetus to pass more easily through the cervix. The placenta is removed and the uterine wall is vacuum aspirated using a cannula.[5]

If you are trying to make us feel bad with your description it's not working....i've read the process of aboritons for years....you've changed nothing.

[buckethead]

GG, some people should be given an award for having the foresight to throw that sperm away!

And I am surprised you do not understand the process to actually create a human life, but it takes a little more than a tissue full of sperm.

But back to your original topic, why is it so horrendous (other than the waste of money) to have a sonogram prior to an abortion?

I find it just as rediculous to ask a woman about her "private" issues as it is rediculous to tell a man that he "must" use his sperm to make a baby and can't waist it!....it's all private and none of anyones business...period.

Clearly, it is everyone's business.

I agree abortion should be legal and safe. I'm not even wanting any forced fetus viewing in the third trimester.

My take is simply this: Abortion rights are the law of the land. Fair enough.
Those laws, IMO fail to account for the possibility (reality) that a fully formed human exists (not as a parasite, mind you) within the womb.

The cut off point (no morbid pun intended) for when we allow abortions is somewhere around childbirth.

It's not the correct cutoff point. [/thread]

[buckethead]

Let's take the libertarian tact.  Why should the government mandate that anyone be allowed to invade my body with a medical device absent my consent?  Worse, be forced to undergo a sub dermal scanning procedure.  Search and seizure ends at my skin in plain sight, absent probable cause.

*We suspect you are harboring a human, and that you might do it harm.*

[avonjax]

mtraininjax, I sure am glad you have great health care. Just hope you never lose it. The big thing now is to hire people part time and give them NO BENEFITS.

Who ever said BENEFITS were part of a job? They are a reward, and the state says I can exclude them for 90 days here in Florida while I have you or the new hire on a trial basis. Seriously, imagine if every job had benefits? The costs for everything would rise. your coffee, your danish, your food, everything will rise if we give BENEFITS to everyone, and pretty soon, we'll be just like Europe.

So if I'm too poor to afford any kind of care I can just die? Oh I see where you are coming from. Thanks for you human kindness.

[uptowngirl]

I think a case can be made that women make this decision, sometimes without proper thought and later it does impact them physically and mentally. It floors me that someone thinks it is completely acceptable to make an incision and suck the brain out of fetus in order to remove it from the "mothers" body just proving to me there are some pretty sick people out there.

[FayeforCure]

mtraininjax, I sure am glad you have great health care. Just hope you never lose it. The big thing now is to hire people part time and give them NO BENEFITS. And at the "unliving wage," many people are offered, they can't afford health care either. So off to Shands, or another emergency room and let everyone else absorb the cost. Or as I am sure would make you happy just die in their bed and leave the poor tax payers alone. OH, and give more tax cuts to the wealthy and large corporations because god knows they shouldn't be punished for making obscene profits while they ship all the jobs overseas.

Well said, except you forgot one thing: Republicans are also trying to shut down all public hospitals, so there's nowhere left to go.

I have friends with relatives in Europe who would move here but they can't afford to lose their healthcare. And EVERYONE I know who has had healthcare in Europe never complained. Sure some people complain about everything, but unlike here being ill doesn't destroy your life and put you in financial ruin. And if your argument is how horrible the wait is for many of them, just think about the people in this country who can't even afford basic medical needs. Many can't even afford to go to a doctor, or they have to decide which necessary drug they can afford to pay for any given month. With all the opportunity that this county offers, the personal health of the citizens is one place that we fail miserably. You may not want to admit it, but our failure in this regard kills people.

THAT is exactly the reason, it took me 16 years living in the US before I took the leap to become a US citizen in 1996. The European healthcare safety net is a hard one to "just give up." Too bad 4 years later the Netherlands started to allow dual citizenship...........if only I had waited four years longer!

[riverside planner]

As long as women have been getting pregnant, they have been trying to get un-pregnant.  We have a range of medical procedures now that ensure a safe outcome for the woman.  Late-term abortion is very rarely used, and then almost exclusively because of a severe negative outcome, e.g., severe fetal abnormality that would result in death if the pregnancy were carried to full term or life-threatening medical condition of the woman.  If people really, truly want to minimize abortions, then they should support comprehensive sex education and life skills education to better empower people who may not have a family that can (or will) provide these things.  At any rate, abortion is a medical procedure that is most appropriately left between a woman and her health care provider.  And to echo previously expressed sentiments, if folks truly want to minimize government intrusion into our personal lives, then staying the hell away from my uterus is a good place to start!

[Garden guy]

I think a case can be made that women make this decision, sometimes without proper thought and later it does impact them physically and mentally. It floors me that someone thinks it is completely acceptable to make an incision and suck the brain out of fetus in order to remove it from the "mothers" body just proving to me there are some pretty sick people out there.

Proper thought?...who say what is proper thought..you?...i don't think so...how dare you think that a woman does this without great thought and contemplation...it's none of your business...if you don't want an abortion..then don't have one...other than that....you have no say.

[danno]

I have a beautiful 6 month old daughter that was nearly aborted.  Her mother was a single 15 year old girl who was living with her boyfriends family.  We met the birth mother by an amazing act of God and were able to convince her that adoption was best option.  There are thousands of couples out there like us that are unable to have children that are an alternative to MURDERING and innocent child.

She has been a blessing in our lives and have been a blessing to many people.  I tear up when I think what might have happend if we hadn't crossed each others paths and stopped what would have been what she was going through with.

She is sitting on my lap as I type this.  She destined for greatness.

[copperfiend]

I think a case can be made that women make this decision, sometimes without proper thought and later it does impact them physically and mentally.

So that is what you think gives the goverment the right to force a woman to have an ultrasound? Paid for with my tax dollars?