Can a Streetcar cost less than a Faux Trolley?

[thelakelander]

The streetcars are clearly preferred in San Francisco.

The same goes for New Orleans...

[danem]

I was wondering about this. When I watched the JTA video about the "trolley" that showed the gentleman riding it downtown to get to work, my first thought was "this is what a good BUS circulator is supposed to look like".

I've ridden streetcars in other cities before. I didn't know they had more capacity then buses!

[peestandingup]

I think the hijacking of the term "trolley" is to make people ignorant (and those who remember, forget about) what a real trolley system is.

I also think heritage streetcars work, but only in certain areas. Obviously, more historic areas (such as New Orleans, San Fran, and even places in the south like Savannah & Charleston they would work). but I'm not sure they would work here. Its not like Jax is a place that really values their historic fabric. With places like San Fran & New Orleans, they never really left, so it makes more sense to leave them the way they are.

Plus, is trying to use 100 year old technology really something we should be doing in the 21st century?? Don't get me wrong, seeing a real working heritage streetcar roll down Riverside would be an awesome sight, but overall I'd much rather see "modern streetcars" like Portland & DC are doing. I think that leaves room to grow & build a real infrastructure instead of just falling in love with the nostalgia.

DC


Portland

[thelakelander]

Just remember that the modern streetcar cost about two to three times as much as a heritage one, even a heritage car built from scratch.  At the end of the day, as long as the service is reliable, comfortable, frequent, end user friendly and takes people where they want to go, people will use the system regardless of vehicle style.    Nevertheless, my suggestion would be to get the infrastructure in and run them both.  Charlotte does this with their heritage trolley and LRT.

[peestandingup]

Do the modern ones cost more because of the vehicle used, the track, or both??

[Dashing Dan]

If your bus seats 50 and your streetcar can seat 150 you will need 3 drivers for each motorman on the streetcar. The matter compounds when you couple a "trailer car" behind the lead streetcar and create a 2 car train for a capacity of 300 to 1 motorman. A similar experiment with the most modern high capacity BRT buses and high capacity LRV's still winds up with a highway vehicle being much more costly.

So with no driver/operator on board, wouldn't the skyway be the best option of all?

[thelakelander]

Here is a decent summary.

New streetcar vehicles can be purchased in either "Modern" or "Heritage" form. Modern and Heritage streetcars both utilize essentially the same infrastructure; the tracks and overhead wire are easily integrated into the built urban environment using relatively low-impact construction techniques. Both Heritage and Modern cars can be air conditioned, and both can provide a comfortable ride given the short trip times involved.

There are differences in the vehicles to be sure; when designed together with a simple boarding platform, Modern Streetcars provide level boarding, and of course they offer the ultra-modern appearance and performance one would expect from today's technology. Some cities (such as Portland) have operated both Heritage and Modern cars on the same route. There are also significant differences in vehicle cost and complexity, a modern replica car selling from about $900,000 and a modern articulated streetcar at between $3.5 - 4.5M (the vehicle is also larger, see sidebar). It should also be noted that the technology gap is narrowing, with replica heritage cars becoming increasingly modern "under the hood".

http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/vintagetrolley.htm

[peestandingup]

Its a shame we can't get any heritage streetcars aftermarket for cheap. Looks like the buy-out in the 30s & 40s fixed them pretty good though:



Boy, GM sure does like to destroy evidence that things even existed don't they?

EV1 Electric Cars

[thelakelander]

You could probably get used cars pretty cheap.  All you would need to do is hook up with a place that's getting ready to upgrade (like Toronto) and take the old cars off their hands.

[iMarvin]

On JTA's future plans website, they have a drawing of a streetcar and it's a modern style streetcar. It would go to 5 points.

[CS Foltz]

Taking in to account, new versus old, taking another cities discontinued "Rail Car/Trolleys" and setting it up here in Jacksonville, makes good sense to me! Even refurbished cars would be cheaper than new from the start. Cost would then reasonable for a startup operation! JTA has not thought of this or even made mention of the possibility....................BRT or bust appears to be their mantra! But they got a heck of a deal on making fake trolley's out of bus's though!

[middleman]

Jacksonville is not a tourist destination. As cool as it might be to run a Streetcar line from downtown to Riverside with nifty heritage street cars, I don't see why there is any reason to expect that you would get more ridership than the current Diesel-powered non-trolley trolleys. Get real people!

[JeffreyS]

Jacksonville is not a tourist destination. As cool as it might be to run a Streetcar line from downtown to Riverside with nifty heritage street cars, I don't see why there is any reason to expect that you would get more ridership than the current Diesel-powered non-trolley trolleys. Get real people!

We are not pitching this as a tourist ride. The advantages of fixed rail vs. buses disguised as trolley are numerous.  Most notably the fact that they tend to attract about $6 of development for every $1 spent. Our skyway has fallen short of this but can claim to have been partially responsible for many millions in development.  It will grow ridership but that is not the primary goal.

[middleman]

Come on... why would replacing the existing diesel non-trolley trolley with a streetcar increase ridership? As somebody has already pointed out, a streetcar system in Savannah or Charleston would probably be successful because, it would attract tourists. Here, replacing one system for another system isn't going to make a difference. What would make a difference is converting downtown into something people want to come to, AND at the same time, making the existing public transit system efficient enough to make the public want to ride it.

So, convince me why spending more money for tracks between downtown and Riverside magically makes taking public transit more popular than it is now?

[Timkin]

I cannot understand why the streetcar method , would not make sense, in the long run to JTA.. plus it seems like the concept itself would be more attractive to users than a stinking diesel bus, IMO.