YAY, Let The Bidding Begin!!! Here we come: High Speed Rail for Florida!!!!

[thelakelander]

Of course they should bid on their own and I wish them the best of luck on their endeavors down there in Central Florida. Unfortunately, they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of pulling it off.

1. The ROW is owned by the State.  Scott has already said he will refuse to work with them.

2. I can't imagine USDOT awarding only one entity the $2.4 billion.  The project is probably a no go, assuming they win a small percentage of the grand total the state just sent back to Washington.

The fact is, they are screwed, Sunrail is screwed, Tri-Rail is screwed, FEC/Amtrak is screwed and Jax commuter rail is a no go as long as Scott is in Tallahassee.  We might as well stop dreaming and face reality.  Nothing significant on any level is going to happen the next couple of years.  We might as well use this indefinite delay to improve what we already have locally and to get this done, its going to mean electing a mayor who will at least acknowledge the importance of mass transit on our communities.

As mentioned a few days ago, I believe this effectively kills the Florida plan.  It doesn't appear that one applicant will win a lump sum of $2.4 billion.  Instead, the money will be piecemealed.

The $2.4 billion of HSIPR funding returned from Florida will go through a new round of applications. US DOT press release is at http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2011/dot2911.html.

" U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood today announced that he is making available approximately $2.4 billion, through a competitive process, to states eager to develop high-speed rail corridors across the United States"

States have until 8 PM on April 4 to submit new applications (well, revised and tweaked versions of what they submitted before). There are 2 pots of funding: $1.63 billion from the stimulus which requires no state matching, and $800 million from FY10 which will require at least 20% state matching. The applicants are not to be concerned as to which pot the funding comes from, the FRA will decide how to allocate the funding. Applicants are encouraged to put up state matching because that will be a factor in the evaluation process.

FRA material is at http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/passenger/477.shtml.

[acme54321]

Why would anyone want to ride a train between Tampa and Orlando?  It's an hour long drive, and you need a car to get around everywhere the train would go, so why not just drive and avoid the hassle?

The biggest users seem to me would be people going to Disney from OIA.  Let Disney extend a monorail line to the airport o take care of that.

[fsujax]

As long as JTA is using local dollars or its share of federal dollars to fund the Commuter Rail studies, there really isn't much Scott can do. Planning will still move forward.

[thelakelander]

Why would anyone want to ride a train between Tampa and Orlando?

I-4 is a parking lot and all of the cities are agressively working to improve their local transit operations. By the time HSR would come online, they would already have reliable local transit in place.  In addition, the actual project extends to Miami.  Tampa to Orlando was just phase 1.  Phase 2 to Port Canaveral and South Florida was in design and expected to be in operation three years after phase 1 opened.

It's an hour long drive, and you need a car to get around everywhere the train would go, so why not just drive and avoid the hassle?

Because I-4 is an unreliable parking lot and conditions are getting worse everyday.  The cheapest option available is the upgrade mass transit infrastructure to serve as an alternative mobility option to driving.

The biggest users seem to me would be people going to Disney from OIA.  Let Disney extend a monorail line to the airport o take care of that.

The region is growing together.  Before Jax fills out Duval County, all of those metro's urban areas will connect and form a continuous line.  Planning and investing in rail-based infrastructure allows that future growth to be sustainable and walkable.  Continuing to ignore the issue of road expansion being unsustainable will cost them billions more while only promoting more taxpayer money draining sprawl.

[thelakelander]

As long as JTA is using local dollars or its share of federal dollars to fund the Commuter Rail studies, there really isn't much Scott can do. Planning will still move forward.

Does JTA have local or federal money to spend on planning?  Nevertheless, at some point unless we're going to pay for implementation 100% with local money, we'll need state assistance in making our bids for federal grants competitive with other regions across the country.

[fsujax]

Yes. You are right to an extent, at some point we will need State support, unless we as a region decide this is something will fund on our own, with federal assistance.

[JeffreyS]

Why would anyone want to ride a train between Tampa and Orlando?  It's an hour long drive, and you need a car to get around everywhere the train would go, so why not just drive and avoid the hassle?

The biggest users seem to me would be people going to Disney from OIA.  Let Disney extend a monorail line to the airport o take care of that.

The world does not just grow to be perfect for rail travel.  You design and implement infrastructure like rail and the world conforms to it.

[FayeforCure]

“If there’s any opportunity for us to revive high speed rail and bring it to Florida, we should explore it,” said Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio. “I need more facts. But in talking to our attorneys about it we have felt all along that we could create an entity between the cities that could receive the funds.”

The coalition, though, will still need cooperation from Scott.

The right-of-way for the tracks, largely along Interstate 4, belongs to the state. And technical assistance will need to come from the Florida Department of Transportation, which is under Scott’s control.

“It’s an arm of the government that would have to be helpful,” Iorio said. “Just as they are helpful if we do a road project. At some point it would get to the point of absurdity if they help with roads and bike paths and expressways but they won’t be helpful with a multi-billion dollar project an entity wants to do in conjunction with the private sector.”



Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/03/11/2110945/high-speed-rail-in-florida-still.html#ixzz1GPyAwg6U

Go Pam, Paula and Audrey for calling out the sillies!!

Yay for Paula, for the courage to say it like it is:

One difficulty is that Scott has the final say over Florida's ready-to-build rail rights-of-way in the median of Interstate 4. They are controlled by the Florida Department of Transportation. The department reports to Scott.

Following his Jan. 4 inauguration, Scott repeatedly said he would withhold judgment on high-speed rail until he could see a feasibility study that was nearly complete. At the time of his Feb. 16 rail rejection, the study was incomplete and Scott had not seen it.

Wednesday, the Florida Department of Transportation released the study. It shows a profit of $10.2 million in the first year, 2016, and a profit of $28.6 million in the 10th year. A Scott spokeswoman now says he does not trust the feasibility study, reports the St. Petersburg Times.

State Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, criticized Scott. She claimed he put a "gag order" on the study to delay its release, the Times reported.

Considering Scott's proclivity for finding aspects of rail to oppose, the city coalition should focus from the start on getting a pledge of cooperation.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20110313/COLUMNISTS0308/103135011/1001/BUSINESS?p=2&tc=pg



That "Obamarail" just sounds too offensive.

Maybe if we call it ScottRail, Scott could go for it

[buckethead]

That "Obamarail" just sounds too offensive.

Maybe if we call it ScottRail, Scott could go for it

You might be on to something Faye.

Let's make it his idea, and have the fund grant Scott a million bucks personally. Call it a consulting fee.

That might tickle his fancy.

[Ocklawaha]

Why would anyone want to ride a train between Tampa and Orlando?

I-4 is a parking lot and all of the cities are agressively working to improve their local transit operations. By the time HSR would come online, they would already have reliable local transit in place.

It's an hour long drive, and you need a car to get around everywhere the train would go, so why not just drive and avoid the hassle?

With Florida's track record I highly doubt we'd have world class mass transit ANYWHERE, remember the statement "bus rapid transit has a higher capacity then trains...at 2 second headways," and this was made stone cold serious. FDOT, HART, SUN, LYNX, VOLTRAN, etc none of them are even close and it would take another couple of billion to get them up to speed.

Because I-4 is an unreliable parking lot and conditions are getting worse everyday.  The cheapest option available is the upgrade mass transit infrastructure to serve as an alternative mobility option to driving.

We agree 100%! I-4 is a disaster, and mass transit is the answer, not a medium distance sprinter like HSR, rather a sensible "Coaster", "Metrolink" or "Sounder" perhaps even feeding into Orlando from the South and West, and then a rocket sled to Jax-and on to NYC. In ANY CASE WE NEED THE COMMUTE AND REGIONAL TRAINS FIRST.

The biggest users seem to me would be people going to Disney from OIA.  Let Disney extend a monorail line to the airport o take care of that.

The region is growing together.  Before Jax fills out Duval County, all of those metro's urban areas will connect and form a continuous line.  Planning and investing in rail-based infrastructure allows that future growth to be sustainable and walkable.  Continuing to ignore the issue of road expansion being unsustainable will cost them billions more while only promoting more taxpayer money draining sprawl.

Exactly Lake, and the HSR project would have only promoted Sprawl, and those folks on I-4, except perhaps between Lakeland and Tampa, would have had very little incentive to blow $60 RT + car rental in order to save 30 minutes (but what in practice would add another 50 minutes to the trip). While the tourist at Disney and I-Drive would be able to get to Disney, the banker, the insurance guy, and the soccer moms were SOL on the north end.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

With Florida's track record I highly doubt we'd have world class mass transit ANYWHERE, remember the statement "bus rapid transit has a higher capacity then trains...at 2 second headways," and this was made stone cold serious. FDOT, HART, SUN, LYNX, VOLTRAN, etc none of them are even close and it would take another couple of billion to get them up to speed.

Their local systems may not be world class compared to some place like NYC but it won't mean that riders in this region are forced to rent cars upon their arrival at their stations either.

We agree 100%! I-4 is a disaster, and mass transit is the answer, not a medium distance sprinter like HSR, rather a sensible "Coaster", "Metrolink" or "Sounder" perhaps even feeding into Orlando from the South and West, and then a rocket sled to Jax-and on to NYC. In ANY CASE WE NEED THE COMMUTE AND REGIONAL TRAINS FIRST.

True, but there is no reason you can't run intercity and commuter rail in the form of express and local trains on the same infrastructure either.

Exactly Lake, and the HSR project would have only promoted Sprawl, and those folks on I-4, except perhaps between Lakeland and Tampa, would have had very little incentive to blow $60 RT + car rental in order to save 30 minutes (but what in practice would add another 50 minutes to the trip). While the tourist at Disney and I-Drive would be able to get to Disney, the banker, the insurance guy, and the soccer moms were SOL on the north end.

Regarding HSR, most of the land along I-4 is already vested and a significant amount is already been or in development.  With that said, they have a choice.  They can do nothing, keep expanding highways or invest in mass transit.  Options 1 and 2 will encourage more automobile oriented sprawl and unsustainable development in all three metropolitan areas.  Option 3, regardless of whether its I-4 or the CSX line (if it becomes an option), will spur more compact infill and new development.  As for the local transit options, I believe Tampa's TECO Streetcar has demonstrated what type of development follows rail-based infrastructure.  If Sunrail survives, expect to see a similar development pattern take place in urban Orlando and the downtowns of nearby satellite cities.

[Ocklawaha]

With Florida's track record I highly doubt we'd have world class mass transit ANYWHERE, remember the statement "bus rapid transit has a higher capacity then trains...at 2 second headways," and this was made stone cold serious. FDOT, HART, SUN, LYNX, VOLTRAN, etc none of them are even close and it would take another couple of billion to get them up to speed.

Their local systems may not be world class compared to some place like NYC but it won't mean that riders in this region are forced to rent cars upon their arrival at their stations either.

People rent cars in NYC too... Bottom line I believe we agree that Florida is light years behind "world class," and horribly behind most of the rest of the USA, to wit:

...And these are just the Amtrak contracted services, there are many more operators out there - but not here.

State Support

Fifteen states contract with Amtrak for the operation of trains that supplement the national Amtrak network by extending the reach of passenger rail services or provide additional frequencies on Amtrak routes. State and regional agencies pay most of the operating costs of these services, not covered by farebox revenues. Continued operation of these state-supported routes is subject to annual contracts and state Legislative appropriations, along with Amtrak financial participation. In addition to operating funds, many of these states also provide funds for infrastructure or other capital improvements to Amtrak routes in their states.

Routes on which some or all of the trains are state-supported are:

    *
      California: Capitol Corridor service (San Jose-Auburn), Pacific Surfliner service (San Luis Obispo-San Diego); and San Joaquin service (Bakersfield-Sacramento/Oakland, plus an extensive system of connecting Amtrak Thruway Motorcoach routes
    *
      Illinois: Hiawatha Service (Chicago-Milwaukee), Lincoln Service (Chicago-St. Louis), Illini & Saluki (Chicago-Carbondale) and Illinois Zephyr & Carl Sandburg (Chicago-Quincy)
    *
      Maine: Downeaster (Portland-Boston)
    *
      Michigan: Blue Water (Port Huron-East Lansing-Chicago) and Pere Marquette (Grand Rapids-Chicago)
    *
      Missouri: Missouri River Runner (Kansas City-St. Louis)
    *
      New York: Adirondack (New York City-Montreal, QC.)
    *
      North Carolina: Carolinian (Charlotte-New York City) and Piedmont (Raleigh-Charlotte)
    *
      Oklahoma: Heartland Flyer (Oklahoma City-Fort Worth)
    *
      Oregon: Amtrak Cascades service (Eugene-Portland-Seattle-Vancouver, B.C.)
    *
      Pennsylvania: Keystone Corridor service (Harrisburg-Philadelphia-New York City)
    *
      Texas: Heartland Flyer (Fort Worth-Oklahoma City)
    *
      Vermont: Ethan Allen Express (Rutland-New York City) and Vermonter (St. Albans-Washington)
    *
      Virginia: Extended Northeast Regional service to Lynchburg (since October, 2009) and additional Northeast Regional services to Richmond (July, 2010)
    *
      Washington: Amtrak Cascades service (Vancouver, B.C.-Seattle-Portland-Eugene)
    *
      Wisconsin: Hiawatha Service (Milwaukee-Chicago)

Connecticut, Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania and Virginia make payments to Amtrak through transit agencies or state transportation departments for use of the Amtrak-owned Northeast Corridor facilities by commuter trains. These agencies or states also provide other funding on the Northeast Corridor, including capital funds for infrastructure and/or stations. Amtrak has agreements for access and/or maintenance where Amtrak trains operate over locally-owned portions of the Northeast Corridor in Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York.
Contract Commuter Service

Amtrak operates more contract commuter services than any other company; currently, Amtrak provides either services and access for 14 commuter agencies.

    * Amtrak currently provides commuter service for the following state and regional authorities:

          o Caltrain (Bay Area California)
          o MARC (Maryland Area Regional Commuter)
          o Shore Line East (Connecticut)
          o Metrolink (Southern California)

    * Amtrak provides services of various types for three other agencies:

          o Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (Maintenance of way and dispatching)
          o Sound Transit (Seattle - Maintenance of equipment)
          o Florida Regional Transportation Authority (Tri-Rail - dispatching)

    * Amtrak provides access (and in some cases, other services) for seven other agencies:

          o Long Island Railroad
          o New Jersey Transit
          o SEPT (Philadelphia)
          o Metra (Chicago)
          o DELDOT (operated by SEPTA)
          o RIDOT (operated by MBTA)
          o Virginia Railway Express

We agree 100%! I-4 is a disaster, and mass transit is the answer, not a medium distance sprinter like HSR, rather a sensible "Coaster", "Metrolink" or "Sounder" perhaps even feeding into Orlando from the South and West, and then a rocket sled to Jax-and on to NYC. In ANY CASE WE NEED THE COMMUTE AND REGIONAL TRAINS FIRST.

True, but there is no reason you can't run intercity and commuter rail in the form of express and local trains on the same infrastructure either.

Absolutely, which is why these trains need to be on the CSX through much of their route, and not miles north of the core communities.

Exactly Lake, and the HSR project would have only promoted Sprawl, and those folks on I-4, except perhaps between Lakeland and Tampa, would have had very little incentive to blow $60 RT + car rental in order to save 30 minutes (but what in practice would add another 50 minutes to the trip). While the tourist at Disney and I-Drive would be able to get to Disney, the banker, the insurance guy, and the soccer moms were SOL on the north end.

Regarding HSR, most of the land along I-4 is already vested and a significant amount is already been or in development.  With that said, they have a choice.  They can do nothing, keep expanding highways or invest in mass transit.  Options 1 and 2 will encourage more automobile oriented sprawl and unsustainable development in all three metropolitan areas.  Option 3, regardless of whether its I-4 or the CSX line (if it becomes an option), will spur more compact infill and new development.  As for the local transit options, I believe Tampa's TECO Streetcar has demonstrated what type of development follows rail-based infrastructure.  If Sunrail survives, expect to see a similar development pattern take place in urban Orlando and the downtown's of nearby satellite cities.

Certainly of the two projects, SUNRAIL was heads and shoulders above the HSR as a feasible work-a-day railroad. Again I agree, and I expect Scott to turn up the heat in the highway kitchen...wouldn't surprise me if the outer beltway came roaring back fully funded! As Faye has pointed out, he is solidly indebted to asphalt and concrete... Look for new lanes, new roads, new turnpikes and lots and lots of pavement. The agenda for the next four years is going to be "develop-develop-develop," and bury as much of what is left of the natural Florida as fast as possible. SPRAWL UNHINDERED! SUNRAIL and/or the FEC-AMTRAK deal might survive, but again, I wouldn't bet on it. Also as part of that same agenda, watch for the transit agencies to be robbed (like the schools, and parks), and starved to the brink of extinction...SO MUCH FOR WORLD CLASS TRANSIT.  Jacksonville alone may have the solution!

OCKLAWAHA

[wsansewjs]

Jacksonville is where Florida begins. Jacksonville may be the last hope for redemption to Florida's death spiral of issues.

-Josh

[thelakelander]

Absolutely, which is why these trains need to be on the CSX through much of their route, and not miles north of the core communities.

What happens in the event that they can't use the CSX corridor or its cost prohibitive?  What you be your alternative?

Exactly Lake, and the HSR project would have only promoted Sprawl, and those folks on I-4, except perhaps between Lakeland and Tampa, would have had very little incentive to blow $60 RT + car rental in order to save 30 minutes (but what in practice would add another 50 minutes to the trip). While the tourist at Disney and I-Drive would be able to get to Disney, the banker, the insurance guy, and the soccer moms were SOL on the north end.

It only had 5 stations and three (DT Tampa, OIA and International Drive) of them are in built out locations.  The Lakeland site is going to be a walkable community regardless of whether HSR comes or not and Disney is Disney.  Thus, phase one of HSR would not have done anything but place infill walkable development in DT Tampa, USF Poly (Lakeland) and I-Drive.  

If the converstation could have changed from "what's wrong with I-4 as a HSR corridor" to "how do we take advantage of new rail infrastructure connecting Central Florida metropolitan areas, a modified service plan of express and local trains would have been attractive for local residents.  Such a plan would have allowed for the creation of additional stops at several destinations along the corridor.  These could have included the Seminole Hard Rock Casino, Florida State Fairgrounds/Amphitheater, Posner Park, Champion's Gate, Celebration, Prime Outlets at Lake Buena Vista, Sea World and Florida Mall.  I have no doubt in my mind that a line hitting these destinations directly with DT Tampa, Disney and OIA would have had a great chance at success by appealing to both tourist and everyday residents.  This tied in with Sunrail would have also provided direct connectivity to DT Orlando, Florida Hospital, Winter Park and a host of urban destinations along the CSX corridor in Orlando.

Certainly of the two projects, SUNRAIL was heads and shoulders above the HSR as a feasible work-a-day railroad. Again I agree, and I expect Scott to turn up the heat in the highway kitchen...wouldn't surprise me if the outer beltway came roaring back fully funded! As Faye has pointed out, he is solidly indebted to asphalt and concrete... Look for new lanes, new roads, new turnpikes and lots and lots of pavement. The agenda for the next four years is going to be "develop-develop-develop," and bury as much of what is left of the natural Florida as fast as possible. SPRAWL UNHINDERED! SUNRAIL and/or the FEC-AMTRAK deal might survive, but again, I wouldn't bet on it. Also as part of that same agenda, watch for the transit agencies to be robbed (like the schools, and parks), and starved to the brink of extinction...SO MUCH FOR WORLD CLASS TRANSIT.  Jacksonville alone may have the solution!

I certainly hope that all of Florida's transit dreams don't end up relying on Jax.  If so, this state is toast.

[Ocklawaha]

Absolutely, which is why these trains need to be on the CSX through much of their route, and not miles north of the core communities.

What happens in the event that they can't use the CSX corridor or its cost prohibitive?  What you be your alternative?

Two points to consider using the carrot and stick routine:

There has never been a railroad that didn't make money by moving cars, we often get so hung up on the legalities, costs, threats, sword rattling, and general bull shit that we miss this. You approach them with a question, "We have this many cars, and we want them to move from here to here, on this schedule...HOW MUCH? 

There has never been a railroad that wouldn't fall all over itself to gain some of the benefits of highway carriers, such as State paid capacity expansion, or the new PTS - Positive Train Control which is mandated by Congress but NOT FUNDED... Basically it involves replacing every signal and the related control system over the entire 21,000 mile system. Oh probably around 21,000 signals to replace + new installation (in cab signals) in 4,100 locomotives. "Pssst...Hey CSX, SUCH A DEAL!" The Sunrail improvements in Jaxport and Winter Haven + capacity increases on the "S" are exactly what is going to get their undivided attention.

The Stick? Glad you asked, the one word every railroad fears more then the devil himself - RE-REGULATION! Florida Public Service Commission, disbanded during deregulation? How'd you like to revisit this CSX? Taxes and Tariff's? Hey we are a state after all... How about we require that you spin off the ENTIRE "A" LINE... I can see it now, NORFOLK SOUTHERN at Rockport... I bring this up only because I don't think it would EVER go that far, when you come into the room "packing heat," and they know we're dead serious, they'll play trains.

The idea that CSX, FEC, NS, THE BAY LINE, FLORIDA CENTRAL, FIRST COAST, OR FLORIDA NORTHERN won't play trains, is just one more aspect of the HSR PROGRAM THAT WAS BOGUS.  The way this thing reads in the documentation and from the comments from some of the planners I think it went like this:

Door swings open in Chairman and President Michael Wards office... "Mr. Ward, this is Mr. USTUF of the Florida High Speed Rail project."  "Glad to meet you Mr. USTUF, what can I help you with today?"  "Well you know, Tallahassee, a bunch of us are going to build this railroad down the middle of I-4 and someone sez 'Hey you boys better make sure the railroad won't run the trains or the public is going to eat y'all alive' so I thought I'd better come in and ask you. Can we run hourly 150 mph trains on your track between Orlando and Tampa? Can we? Oh can we?

LONG SILENCE...

"CLICK"

"Hello Security, yeah, this is Mike, how long will it take you to get a couple of railroad police officers up here?"

Exactly Lake, and the HSR project would have only promoted Sprawl, and those folks on I-4, except perhaps between Lakeland and Tampa, would have had very little incentive to blow $60 RT + car rental in order to save 30 minutes (but what in practice would add another 50 minutes to the trip). While the tourist at Disney and I-Drive would be able to get to Disney, the banker, the insurance guy, and the soccer moms were SOL on the north end.

It only had 5 stations and three (DT Tampa, OIA and International Drive) of them are in built out locations.  The Lakeland site is going to be a walkable community regardless of whether HSR comes or not and Disney is Disney.  Thus, phase one of HSR would not have done anything but place infill walkable development in DT Tampa, USF Poly (Lakeland) and I-Drive.

True, WAY TOO MANY for effective or successful HSR. And there was talk of a "wild card station" somewhere west of Disney, two Polk stations, or some future station, so I'd say M/L knowing there is a shot at yet another station, Leesburg will come charging down US-27, Kissimmee will burst north and swallow Disney. Celebration will fuse with Auburndale will fuse with Lakeland will fuse with Lakeland etc... and the entire mass will surge northward until I-4 and not the historic core rail line is the "new center."  Yeah, it would take a lifetime, but why even set that up when we have a perfectly good alternative?  

If the converstation could have changed from "what's wrong with I-4 as a HSR corridor" to "how do we take advantage of new rail infrastructure connecting Central Florida metropolitan areas, a modified service plan of express and local trains would have been attractive for local residents.  Such a plan would have allowed for the creation of additional stops at several destinations along the corridor.  These could have included the Seminole Hard Rock Casino, Florida State Fairgrounds/Amphitheater, Posner Park, Champion's Gate, Celebration, Prime Outlets at Lake Buena Vista, Sea World and Florida Mall.  I have no doubt in my mind that a line hitting these destinations directly with DT Tampa, Disney and OIA would have had a great chance at success by appealing to both tourist and everyday residents.  This tied in with Sunrail would have also provided direct connectivity to DT Orlando, Florida Hospital, Winter Park and a host of urban destinations along the CSX corridor in Orlando.

Here's the catch, you will not be successful in stringing a corridor of cities together and then anchoring them on the north to an amusement park, tourist trap and an airport, especially when that airport is off center and quite south of the main mass of the northern anchor urbanized area. A further item of consideration is ask any family the frequencies they go to work, go to church, go shopping, go to entertainment each day or week, and compare that with the frequencies that you must go to the airport... If I can sell you 50 tickets from CHURCH STREET STATION to DOWNTOWN LAKELAND, for every 1 ticket to the airport, the airport loses.

That said, I still like connecting the airport with the HSR, just not the other way around. So we lay in a FAST LRT LINE from the airport to I-Drive, Celebration, Prime Outlets at Lake Buena Vista, Sea World and Florida Mall. The idea of a "Connection" to complete a relatively short - simple trip completely defeats the speed of HSR in that corridor. In other words the HSR MUST GO WHERE THE CENTER OF POPULATIONS CAN BE FOUND, while the LRT-MONORAIL-COMMUTER RAIL etc... have the luxury of serving all of the "accessories to life." HSR should focus on the necessities of serious travel.

Jacksonville alone may have the solution!

I certainly hope that all of Florida's transit dreams don't end up relying on Jax.  If so, this state is toast.

Well the mobility plan was created here, and didn't I hear that cities around the country are taking a look? If we get a progressive mayor, we could be in high cotton in Jacksonville.

OCKLAWAHA