Assorted Discussion about the Skyway and the PCT Trolleys

[Ocklawaha]

You are telling me the Skyway provides more service than the entire bus system?  Ock, I think you are manipulating statistics to suit your argument here - if there really is one.  I am focused on VALUE - overall UTILITY.  Not some isolated number that is irrelevant to the issue.

I didn't call anyone a liar, I just said the article lacked sufficient support, documentation, or fact checking to substantiate many of the implied or explicit claims made by "officials".  Draw your own conclusions.

You can dream on about the Skyway not holding back mass transit in Northeast Florida.  But, I believe you are living in a bubble.  By the way, kudos to Lake for standing up for mass transit in general on First Coast Connect this week.  I thought you did a great job articulating your points.  Ock, if you listened in (I didn't catch the whole show unfortunately), I heard quite a few callers thinking far different than many of us here do about mass transit.  This is the "wall of resistance" that I think you need to be paying attention to.

Passenger's Per Mile and/or Passengers Per Mile Per Day, PPM/PPMPD are the industry standard for performance of any transit system. The utility of the JTA bus system is counted the same way for national purposes. Boardings per day or hour can be used but they'll skew the the report enough to cause a scandal with the Times-Union wildly different then the number of passengers carried one mile. Boardings represent (or should) your fare revenue for any given period of time, but that WON'T give you utility because how many got on and off in a block or two and how many went from end to end of a route? Other transit guys on here can tell you that this isn't my crazy formula, and I sure didn't invent it, but it's about the best we can use.

That wall of resistance exists EVERYWHERE, and just about for everything. Most good ole boys have their wheels, hound dog and shotgun collection, they're not getting on your bus. What makes believers out of them is when a Rail Diesel Car or DMU or Streetcar etc... Pulls up in front of the brewery when the whistle blows and they realize their neighbor or work assistant is riding. I'm afraid it's more like Amway then it is Nike. I was in Los Angeles when the South Coast rapid transit project was shot to pieces, then the monorail, then round 5 or 6 the Subway finally started but cost overruns and delays unleashed angry mobs. You just do your very best, defend your cause at every turn as Lake did and remember the line from Galaxy Quest...Most transit managers think the business should be carried out like the tourneys of the Middle Ages. We have no use for knights; the industry needs revolutionaries.

NEVER GIVE UP - NEVER SURRENDER!

TRUCK DAY AT SCHOOL - WHERE'S THE BUS?

Something JTA thoroughly screws up is community participation and visibility, but they are doing much better. Does Duval County Schools have a "bus day" for elementary students? Have they done a "paint the buses" contest for jr and high school students? Do they have a Junior Conductor program for the Skyway, or a Bus Explorers scout troop? How about a historian, exhibit or museum?  They apparently have never heard that he alone, who owns the youth, gains the future.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

OK, I am reposting the NY Times article I previously posted here that was accidentally deleted and could not be restored by MJ.

As I noted in my original posting, I think New Jersey's situation is indicative of how difficult, and possibly unlikely, the Fed's can/will recoup monies outlaid for failed transportation projects.  Further, the Skyway has been built and operated for over 20 plus years as a "national demonstration project" so, its failure should hardly be hung forever on us locals.  NJ  never even started their project,  a much less defensible position than we have.  And, yet, they are putting up a real fight not to pay back.

I also noted the last paragraph that says for a $1 payment to the Feds, no interest accrues and the Feds must "negotiate a settlement".  That doesn't seem to be a very high bar for ducking out of repayment.

As I have said before, all this just is just further evidence for my contention that a payback to the Feds over the Skyway being closed is just a red herring.  I don't see it ever being enforced if it is even applicable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/30/nyregion/new-jersey-told-to-repay-us-for-hudson-tunnel-project.html?scp=1&sq=new%20jersey%20repay&st=cse

April 29, 2011
New Jersey Must Return $271 Million Spent on Hudson Tunnel, U.S. Insists
By PATRICK McGEEHAN

The next stop for New Jersey in its debt collection fight with the federal government may be federal court.

On Friday, the Transportation Department flatly rejected the state’s arguments for refusing to repay $271 million that was spent on a project, canceled last year, to build a pair of rail tunnels under the Hudson River. The message to Gov. Chris Christie was blunt: Repay now or we will collect the debt the hard way. Plus interest.

In a letter to New Jersey’s senators and representatives in Congress, Ray LaHood, the transportation secretary, warned that his department had “many tools under the Debt Collection Act to recoup the lost federal taxpayer funds, including withholding future state funding from a wide variety of sources.” But “in consideration of the current economic challenges burdening New Jersey,” Mr. LaHood added, he hoped to “develop a workable payment schedule” and avoid having to resort to those collection methods.

Mr. LaHood should not expect to find a check in the mail any time soon. Mr. Christie, who was in Massachusetts on Friday to speak at Harvard University, declared in January that “we are not paying the money back.”

Kevin Roberts, a spokesman for Mr. Christie, said the governor’s staff would “review the decision before determining next steps moving forward.”

One option is to sue the department to try to stop it from seeking to collect, but Mr. Roberts would not say if a lawsuit was being considered.

In the meantime, interest on the debt will pile up quickly. The federal government currently charges interest at a rate of 1 percent a year, which in this case amounts to more than $50,000 a week.

The dispute dates to last fall, when Mr. Christie, a Republican, chose to halt construction on the tunnel project, known as Access to the Region’s Core, or the ARC tunnel, which had just begun and was projected to cost $8.7 billion. The federal government had pledged to pay $3 billion of that cost, and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey had committed $3 billion more.

But Mr. Christie said he had become alarmed by estimates of potential cost overruns. He decided that New Jersey could not cover those excess costs and, over strenuous objections from Mr. LaHood and Senators Frank R. Lautenberg and Robert Menendez, canceled the project.

When federal transportation officials demanded that New Jersey repay money already spent on the project, Mr. Christie hired Patton Boggs, a Washington law firm, to challenge that demand. The lawyers, who reportedly have billed the state and New Jersey Transit about $800,000, argued that the state stopped the project because of unforeseen costs that were beyond its control.

But in his letter, Mr. LaHood said Mr. Christie had affirmed his support for the project a year ago when New Jersey Transit officials knew that the cost of the tunnel could rise as high as $12 billion.

Mr. Lautenberg and Mr. Menendez, both Democrats, issued a joint statement criticizing the approach taken by Patton Boggs.

“We worked hard to get the parties to negotiate a fair resolution of this conflict,” the senators said. “However, the state’s outside lawyers pursued an all-or-nothing approach, which brings substantial risk to New Jersey taxpayers.”

A federal official involved in the dispute said the state could have offered to repay as little as $1 and the government would have been obligated to negotiate a settlement, a process which could have dragged on for years. All the while, no interest would have accrued on the debt, according to the official, who was not authorized to speak on the record.

[stjr]

youve still never explained how you will replace a 100 million dollar transit bridge over the river, STJR.

This is all nonsense on your part, driven by irrationalism.

Stephen, "discussing" this with you is like killing weeds in the garden or one of those "whack-em" games at the fair.  Kill one point and you spring back with another.  I have addressed your "bridge" on countless other Skyway threads.  Go back and re-read them if you want your answer.  I am not going to repeat it hear for the umpteenth time.

By the way, although there are solutions to the bridge issue, I am not sure one is even necessary.  There doesn't seem to be much demand for the current bridge connection and water taxis, a bus, a commuter rail line with stops on either side of the river, or other transit modes could handle any subsequent demand for possibly a lot less.

I think it's more important right now to build a viable downtown loop followed by a Southbank loop. The bridge connecting nothing at the moment is putting the cart before the horse.  Taking your position, you can keep your Skyway bridge running at the expense of never having anything viable in Downtown or the Southbank to support it.  I don't subscribe to that obviously.

[stjr]

You propose building in another hundred to two hundred million dollars into the expense of rolling out a citywide transit system.

My post you are responding to:

By the way, although there are solutions to the bridge issue, I am not sure one is even necessary.  There doesn't seem to be much demand for the current bridge connection and water taxis, a bus, a commuter rail line with stops on either side of the river, or other transit modes could handle any subsequent demand for possibly a lot less.

Stephen, since you aren't "listening" I won't waste my time responding further to your above post.

[stjr]

so your 'solution' is--we might not need transit?

"....water taxis, a bus, a commuter rail line with stops on either side of the river, or other transit modes..."   So, let's add to "not listening" putting words in opposition's mouth that are completely imagined and/or fabricated.  Good try Stephen, but since you are not actually debating, I am not biting.

[tufsu1]

so your 'solution' is--we might not need transit?

"....water taxis, a bus, a commuter rail line with stops on either side of the river, or other transit modes..."   

do you understand that commuter rail will likely only run hourly....with 30 min. service possible during the am and pm peak periods?

[Ocklawaha]

OK, I am reposting the NY Times article I previously posted here that was accidentally deleted and could not be restored by MJ.

As I noted in my original posting, I think New Jersey's situation is indicative of how difficult, and possibly unlikely, the Fed's can/will recoup monies outlaid for failed transportation projects.  Further, the Skyway has been built and operated for over 20 plus years as a "national demonstration project" so, its failure should hardly be hung forever on us locals.  NJ  never even started their project,  a much less defensible position than we have.  And, yet, they are putting up a real fight not to pay back.

I also noted the last paragraph that says for a $1 payment to the Feds, no interest accrues and the Feds must "negotiate a settlement".  That doesn't seem to be a very high bar for ducking out of repayment.

As I have said before, all this just is just further evidence for my contention that a payback to the Feds over the Skyway being closed is just a red herring.  I don't see it ever being enforced if it is even applicable.

And when you pull back the dog and the pony, you'll still have a massive expense taking the damn thing down. So your crystal ball tells us we wouldn't have to pay back the money? Cool, because once the federal government files suit against the city and our bond rating drops somewhere below Haiti's, we have it from the horses mouth that nobody that does this can expect ANY federal funds for a long, long, time... a time we can't afford just so you can say, "See I wrecked the train."  I agree with Stephen that this is VERY tiring, this years long attack against any transit that doesn't "make money" is droll boarding on buffoonery.

"discussing" this with you is like killing weeds in the garden or one of those "whack-em" games at the fair.  Kill one point and you spring back with another.

WTF? Isn't this exactly what you have been doing to our "Red Herring?" Frankly me thinkith thou doest flounder.

OCKLAWAHA

[BigGuy219]

Most people in Jacksonville have cars and are comfortable driving most places they want to get to.

Therefore, I'd target people in Jacksonville who don't have cars if I wanted to see a transit success.

All of my attention would go on transit to and from the airport. Parking prices are outrageous at the airport, they'd use transit there to avoid it.

People arriving would definately hop on a transit system, rather than rent a car.

I love the way Baltimore's light rail is right at the exit of BWI Airport. That's fantastic.

We're talking hundreds of million on transit, but the airport is getting shafted.

That's where we need it most. That's where it'd be used the most. That's where we'd appreciate it.

[JeffreyS]

Most people in Jacksonville have cars and are comfortable driving most places they want to get to.

Therefore, I'd target people in Jacksonville who don't have cars if I wanted to see a transit success.

All of my attention would go on transit to and from the airport. Parking prices are outrageous at the airport, they'd use transit there to avoid it.

People arriving would definately hop on a transit system, rather than rent a car.

I love the way Baltimore's light rail is right at the exit of BWI Airport. That's fantastic.

We're talking hundreds of million on transit, but the airport is getting shafted.

That's where we need it most. That's where it'd be used the most. That's where we'd appreciate it.

I love BWI and Regan so convenient with the transit.  That said connecting our urban core neighborhoods is where I think we should start.  Airport and Beach would be great after.  Commuter rail can come very close to the Airport and a fixed rail connection would be perfect.

[BigGuy219]

Most people in Jacksonville have cars and are comfortable driving most places they want to get to.

Therefore, I'd target people in Jacksonville who don't have cars if I wanted to see a transit success.

All of my attention would go on transit to and from the airport. Parking prices are outrageous at the airport, they'd use transit there to avoid it.

People arriving would definately hop on a transit system, rather than rent a car.

I love the way Baltimore's light rail is right at the exit of BWI Airport. That's fantastic.

We're talking hundreds of million on transit, but the airport is getting shafted.

That's where we need it most. That's where it'd be used the most. That's where we'd appreciate it.

I love BWI and Regan so convenient with the transit.  That said connecting our urban core neighborhoods is where I think we should start.  Airport and Beach would be great after.  Commuter rail can come very close to the Airport and a fixed rail connection would be perfect.

The Skyway, as it sits now, has a public image problem. That much is certain, which is why it was omitted from the mobility plan.

I think that we need to be very careful with our next move. It can make or break transit in Jacksonville. We need something the community can get behind.

Therefore, I really think we have to gear it towards tourists. The locals will wait back and use their cars. If we focus on the airport (and the Beach like you mentioned), then I think we can really get something going.

Tourists will be more inclined to use transit than residents in the early days simply because they're emerging from the airport with bags, tired, and looking for the easiest way to a shower.

[BigGuy219]

I hear you and not a bad suggestion I still  think I come down on the streetcar line from Riverside to the Landing, sports district and Springfield first.  Added benefit it is already in the approved mobility plan. 

I am going bck to DC in July and when I get off the plan and take the Train to Gaithersburg I may come around to your line of thinking.

Well, the problem with the streetcar from Riverisde to downtown being first is the image problem.

Riverisde and downtown are two of the most affluent communities in Jacksonville. The rest of the city will view tens of millions of dollars in investment on "people who already have money" negatively. Much like they view the skyway.

I think it will be another wedge issue that'll hurt the image of downtown and transit here in Jacksonville. If it were up to me, I'd definately put my energy on something with a better public image for the first project. Airport. The beach (people hate driving home wet in a hot car). We need a home run with our first at bat.

[JeffreyS]

The beach (people hate driving home wet in a hot car). We need a home run with our first at bat.

I think you may be on to something there.

[JeffreyS]

Phase 1 Riverside starter line the council approved it.  Now lets show them some support for this bold( In Jacksonville) action.  We need to rally support not pick this apart with how they could have done it differently. 

[BigGuy219]

We're talking about a huge new transit center for Amtrak, Greyhound, Skyway, Streetcar, and Busses. However, as it sits now, the only way to get there from the airport is one bus that runs every hour (and not even on the hour).

The airport is our only real success in terms of transit. We are shooting ourselves in the foot not tying the airport into the system. We've got to get fixed transit from the airport to the transportation hub, or we're missing our biggest oppurtunity to make it work.

[Captain Zissou]

Most people in Jacksonville have cars and are comfortable driving most places they want to get to.
Therefore, I'd target people in Jacksonville who don't have cars if I wanted to see a transit success.
All of my attention would go on transit to and from the airport. Parking prices are outrageous at the airport, they'd use transit there to avoid it.

I agree with parts of this.  Most people are comfortable driving their cars.  However, I'd argue that there are 20,000+ people in the core neighborhoods that would ditch their car if our transit system was more efficient.  I would focus on the core neighborhoods first.

Using Jer... Big Guy's 'live and let die' way of thinking, forget Mandarin and Baldwin.  They will stick to their cars no matter what.  Why try and create a transit system that caters to them??  We should first work on attracting the progressive people in Jacksonville and then branch out to the 'burb dwellers.  The progressive people live in the core neighborhoods.

A line to the airport won't do much for the citizens of Jacksonville. It will make us a much better location for business and conventions, but that's another story for another time. People are already stressed out when they are about to fly. Asking them to ditch their car and try the train is just adding one more hassle to their trip.  They aren't willing to gamble on something like transit at an already stressful time.  The best idea is to give people in the core neighborhoods the option to ride from their neighborhood to downtown or another core neighborhood at their leisure.  Once they see that the system is efficient, cheap and time saving, then they will ride it to and from work.  Once there is a consistent following of riders, land value will go up around stations, infill will occur, and then we're in business.

The core neighborhoods do have all the money.  They also set a lot of the trends around here.  Only when the core neighborhoods have fully embraced the skyway, or whatever other transit we implement, will the suburbanites join in.