No Transit, No Transit Center, NO TO JTA! Ock's Rant!

[Ocklawaha]

Beautiful center in Beaverton, (Portland) Oregon, Rail, Light Rail, Bus, Freeway, Parking, Walking, Bike Trails...
Talk about someone at JTA checking their brain at the door, the pretty plans for the Transportation Center are NOT a Transportation Center at all! Folks, don't take my word for it. Damn, Did Abbott play off of Costello? Did Stan work with Ollie? This is not a classic Transportation Center, it is a disconnected complex of bus and rail and convention and Skyway, and parking and Intercity bus buildings all scattered over several blocks. Now just imagine flying into JIA to change flights (like anyone ever does that). Delta arrives at the normal gate area, but Southwest is boarding over at the Clarion Hotel, Meanwhile the JTA bus boards down the road at the Holiday Inn and the Commuter Plane leaves from the freight terminal! THIS IS NOT A TRANSPORTATION CENTER! No matter how pretty it looks. For this plan to work we MUST move the convention center out of the depot area, and move every aspect of Bus, Intercity Bus, Rail and even curve the Skyway into the current Parking or Convention building area. Then allow someone to build a high-rise hotel, a theater, and a dozen other convention centers around downtown. At least travelers won't be walking or wandering around Lavilla trying to figure out which building is the Center of the Center without a Center!


Award Winning Center in Silver Spring Maryland, NOTE it's all under one roof!

Now picture this scene, "TRANSPORTATION CENTER BY JTA TAKE ONE", MARKER:  JTA (as usual) doesn't listen to anyone, and goes ahead with the bus sheds and the marble palace to themselves. Greyhound and the other lines get suckered into the new station as well but of course, it's a block or so North. Meanwhile, we decide to build the convention center at the School Board Property, or Hyatt, or Stadium Area... So the Prime Osbourne is Boarded up! Ahhh, but we built those Amtrak platforms out by McCoys Creek, and those poor folks will walk through the ruins of what was once an active -convention-center-turned-vacant-eyesore, for a full city block before emerging into the light of the 3 blocks "Centerless Center". Just imagine the trash and homeless mess they'll encounter in that journey, hey and the rail passengers are usually well healed and upper income...WELCOME TO JACKSONVILLE...!

How about this one in Bangor UK? Bus? Rail? Transit? all under one very nice roof without covering 20 acres...Hey JTA? Where's the marble office suites?

How about this one, "TRANSPORTATION CENTER BY JTA TAKE TWO," MARKER: The Prime Osbourne stays and even expands. 2 large goups are meeting at the center with dozens of aides, catering and other active businesses, The Silver Star and Silver Meteor, Amtraks Prime trains, happen in at the same time, and discharge some 450 passengers. These folks enter intot he maze of halls or into the side walk out front to wander toward town, Do they even see the next 3 blocks of Centerless Center? Hopeless...

Schenetady, NY, making use of an old Depot..."Gee what a novel thought JTA..." Bus, Amtrak, Commuter Rail all under one roof...I bet they could even fit in a people mover-er-uh-Skyway and a BRT bus, Guess what else? They'll get REAL Trolleys too!

If General Robert E. Lee had consolidated his army of Northern Virginia, in front of the Federals like JTA plans to consolidate their surface center, luckless General Ambrose Burnside, could have gone through the Confederates like rain through a screen door and raised the flag over Richmond!


Believe it or not, this is Jacksonville's, disconnected, de-centralized mess of a multi-million dollar plan! Now can you imagine when commuter rail and/or BRT comes in and the Amtrak Corridor trains start running, who in the heck is going to lug their stuff 3 or 4 blocks to...to...to...beats the hell out of me!

JTA doesn't seem to understand the concept of "CENTER", perhaps a careful walk through a shopping mall with crayon diagrams and maps would help. The other problem is the word "ORIENTED" the same folks that bring us a Centerless-Center, think that "Transit Oriented" means anything within a block or two of Transit. Which begs the question, are the strip clubs, nude bars and booze joints in Saint Nicholas (Beach and Atlantic) that happen to be across the road from a large Catholic School... Well? What are they JTA? "Catholic School Oriented Strip Clubs?"


Transit 101 for the Transit Challenged. This is an image of a typical Ass. Please note that if one is Oriented toward the Ass, he or she could be considered the beloved friend of said animal. Though the Ass End may indeed bite you, to be oriented toward it is much desired then to turning ones backside toward it. This would NOT be Ass Oriented, and may result in being face down in fuzzy substances much like that found in the BRT planning rooms at JTA. Now on the other hand, the Arse end can be deadly. A cowboy or transit planner, may stand near the Arse, but Orient him or herself away from the Arse end of said animal, this can result in soon reaching incredible altitudes without the aid of rockets. Further, if the Arse is in season, and the said transit planner or cowboy orients himself or herself too close and toward the Arse , you may take a bath that not even the JTA spin doctors could clean up. This my friends is the basis for Transit or Rail Oriented Development or simply adjacent development. To stand in the middle of a City paddock, and look away from the Transit potential, without thought nor fear, takes a real ASS.

I hope someone at City Council reads this and kicks some sense into the political insanity. We bought a Skyway, Now we are buying at useless BRT plan, and next...Super Station...JTA, 3 strikes and your out!

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

Interesting tirade.  I applaud JTA for seeing the need for a transportation center, but I can also see that its going to be inefficient for users attempting to transfer to different modes of transit. 

Imo, the discussion about convention center should have involved both the courthouse and transportation center plans.  Nevertheless, regardless of whether the convention center leaves or not, the transportation center needs to be consolidated into one or two blocks, as opposed to being spreadout over seven.

The key to making that work is to seriously coordinate plans with the convention center so that all are redesigned to complement their surroundings creating a large district that flows together.

[archiphreak]

I would actually argue for the proposed Convention Center development.  There is a method to the madness shown in the image.  I think one of the problems with our fair pedestrians in Jacksonville is the fact that the vast majority of them think that 4 blocks is too great a distance to walk for something.  Look at real pedestrian oriented neighborhoods and you'll see that a maximum distance of walking for comfort is in the order of 8-10 blocks, not 3 or 4.  3 or 4 blocks is like walking from one side of the Landing to the other.  Not exactly a trek.  But I do agree that a more careful study of that area should be done to see what the true potential is and could be.  Perhaps that should be a MetroJax sponsored design competition or Charrette - The New Jacksonville Convention and Transit Center.  Though I might locate it a little closer to the center of the Urban Core rather than between downtown and La Villa.  Just my oh so humble opinion.  :-)

[thelakelander]

I understand where you're coming from, but when designing a decent transportation center, where you want transit riders to transfer between modes (thats the whole purpose of a TC), time and distance become important factors.  If you fail to address those issues then it only becomes a negative for all modes of transit running into the center.

As for walkability, people have no problem walking if there's something to walk to.  In downtown, they don't because the urban building fabric has been ripped apart by surface parking lots.  At SJTC, Regency and the Avenues, they have no problem walking from one end to the other.

If the transportation center is designed to be efficient, that only leaves more room around the Prime Osborn (if it remains a convention center) for complementing development like the proposed Bay Street Station movie theater/hotel/bowling/restaurant complex across the street.  Then you get a decent transportation element in an urban neighborhood full of destinations that encourage people to walk to get from one to the other.

[archiphreak]

I agree wholeheartedly.  But at least they are thinking in the right direction.  Just because it isn't perfect doesn't mean it isn't a valid attempt.  We can all argue what should and shouldn't be TOD or TAD or whatever other acronym you want to call out.  But at some point we have to start taking the baby steps.  Nothing is going to happen overnight, so any small step in the right direction needs to be validated, in my opinion.

[thelakelander]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.  If a transportation center does not work it does not work and transit will ultimately suffer because of it.  That's something that happened with the Skyway that nobody wants to see happen again.  Luckily, its not build yet.  This means there should be time to refine things and to work out the kinks.

[tufsu1]

that seems a bit harsh!

[Charles Hunter]

If I remember my Ancient Transportation Center history correctly, Greyhound was originally going to be in the old Union Terminal building, along with Amtrak.  However, the Powers That Be with the Convention Center and City didn't want those people that ride intercity buses near their conventioneers. 
And, unless Congress comes up with some bucks to pay for the relocation, Amtrak ain't gonna be there for awhile (read: years) anyway.

[fsujax]

Thanks for that perspective Charles....eye opening.

[Ocklawaha]

Believe it or not, this is Jacksonville's, disconnected, de-centralized mess of a multi-million dollar plan! Now can you imagine when commuter rail and/or BRT comes in and the Amtrak Corridor trains start running, who in the heck is going to lug their stuff 3 or 4 blocks to...to...to...beats the hell out of me!

Ever notice the buildings in the foreground in this JTA IMAGE? All of those empty lots are filled with duplicates of what JTA calls their Rosa Parks (?) Transit Center "TOD." Built like castles, they surround and focus on a central PARKING facility. PARKING! Now that is Transit Oriented! They wall off both the public and TRANIST and do nothing to bring the neighborhood together. This is more evidence that the "Brains" have left the building, down on Myrtle Avenue. Lake, you ought to critique these images, it should be fun! Imagine when they hit Arlington, Gateway, JTB and the Avenues with these! Taking down shopping centers, high rise buildings and retail and offices in the process of FORCING us to love BRT!

Last report I have on the Amtrak issue? Look into my crystal and I see, they get their money. If not for all of the right reasons, then for the wrong ones. The Democrats are going to FORCE FEED this to the administration and already have a veto proof majority in the Senate on Amtrak. Watch for this train to come into the station soon. The Republicans, will have to relent and abandon their highway buddies or run the risk of looking (and being) VERY dead on the oil crisis. Locally, this JTA plan will ensure that the bus and the rail people stay as far away from each other as possible.

But JTA says "(Ocklawaha!) you have an agenda!"

OOPS! I'm sorry, does it show?

Gee JTA does that mean we are not friends anymore? Why if y'all were not my friend, I just don't think I could bear it...

Ocklawaha

[Timkin]

Ock.... You are my friend   You rock!!!

[reednavy]

Geez, talk about bringing a thread up from the dead.

[Timkin]

?

[stjr]

It may be a thread from the dead, but it still appeals to the head!  

JTA isn't listening to Ock or anyone else who might have common sense or actually use this center.  Everything said here is still fair game and, unfortunately, so is JTA's poorly executed abomination of an intermodal center that really looks to me like a cover for JTA to build a new executive palace for itself and its fellow road building co-conspirators.  Oh, the irony of using mass transit as the excuse to accomplish their agenda  

Funny, JTA can't find money for bus shelters but can spend hundreds of thousands to build covered walkways serving its own employees.

P.S. Still waiting for them to post updated financial statements on their web site.  Coming up on two years overdue.

[Ocklawaha]

Re-reading the "Crystal Ball" from 2007 was interesting, indeed AMTRAK DID GET IT'S LONG-LONG OVERDUE MAJOR FUNDING, and indeed the only "anti's" in the bill were a handful of Republicans.

"Last report I have on the Amtrak issue? Look into my crystal and I see, they (AMTRAK) get their money. If not for all of the right reasons, then for the wrong ones. The Democrats are going to FORCE FEED this to the administration (IE: G.W. Bush and Company) and already have a veto proof majority in the Senate on Amtrak. Watch for this train to come into the station soon. The Republicans, will have to relent and abandon their highway buddies or run the risk of looking (and being) VERY dead on the oil crisis. Locally, this JTA plan will ensure that the bus and the rail people stay as far away from each other as possible."

Did the Republican's that stood in the "Station House Door" get run over as I predicted? Hey, this was written a year before President Obama was elected!

Just one more case of an "I told you so..."

PLEASE JTA, DON'T LET ME BE RIGHT AGAIN! ...or you could just hire me!


OCKLAWAHA