Solving JTA's BRT North Corridor Funding Dilemma

[thelakelander]

Now that I have read the article, I have a little more to comment on.

My strong distaste for BRT is beginning to subside.  In areas where we aren't duplicating an existing system (like the Skyway) or existing infrastructure (rail lines that could be commuter), it seems like the best first step is BRT.  A newer, more reliable and informative system will appeal to a larger group of people.  I haven't been terribly upset about the loss of HSR because I believe that we should be starting small.  Same can be said for the local system and the BRT seems to be the next step - in certain areas.  I still much prefer a Skyway extension to San Marco and the streetcar from Riverside to Downtown.

There is nothing wrong with the concept of BRT.  What's wrong with good reliable bus service? The negative issues locally revolve around system duplication, not designing mass transit specifically to the needs of the individual environments it is intended to serve, capital costs and the idea of saying it will do what the concept was never really intended to do (ex. like spur TOD or being a building block to LRT).

In addition, the City of Jacksonville's draft of the 2030 Mobility Plan includes road infrastructure projects intended to relieve the isolated congestion points along the corridor.

I am surprised that Metro Jacksonville would be rallying behind this.  Providing BRT signal priority could eliminate the need for the road infrastructure projects, could it not?  Which would cost less?  This argument seems to be made frequently in reverse on this forum.

All road projects should not be considered bad.  In many cases, regardless of the mass transit investment, you still need sidewalks, bike facilities and lighting.  These are all things that can be included as a part of road infrastructure upgrades.  The key is to make sure your road projects are complete streets oriented.

According to JTA's plans, buses along the North Corridor will arrive at stops every 10-15 minutes.  At that rate, the frequency of service is strong enough for riders to know that the next bus will be arriving very soon.  This makes the immediate need for real-time passenger information a desire rather than necessity.

I disagree.  Having real-time information adds significantly to the ridership experience.  People who don’t have a choice but to ride the bus currently will live with it the way it is.  But if JTA is trying to attract a new group of riders, then it is exactly this kind of thing that will make them more comfortable with the system.  Knowing that the bus is 15 minutes away tells me that I may have time to do some work while I’m waiting.  If it is only 5 minutes away, then perhaps I catch up on emails.  People want to take the guesswork out.  In addition, it would allow JTA a way to tell people that perhaps the system is out of service and is more like 60 minutes delayed.  Well, I would rather know that immediately as opposed to waiting and waiting and waiting.

Is this worth waiting to we have $22 million to modify service in this corridor to make it reliable and easy to use for the end user.  My position is that it is not.  Why not strive to have reliable bus service and add elements like this as the opportunity arises in the future?

[wsansewjs]

If it gets to be more than five minutes after your scheduled time, then chances are you are going to miss your next connection, and are going to be late no matter what.  And since the headways have been slowed to to between an hour and an hour and a half per bus route, you run the risk of being more than an hour late.

You just took the words out of my mouth. That is the very reason why I have to STRESS so much about being on time to work. I can't drive due to my progressive blindness. I would have to use the city buses if the JTA connexion can't take me to certain area because I am not "eligible enough" such as ADA certification bullshit. JTA and transit issues are my biggest reason and it is responsible for my involvement in this beloved community, MetroJacksonville.com.

-Josh

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

My point was to Redneck not understanding the problems with JTA's current non existent system of updating passengers.

Community ShuttlesCommuter ShuttleConnexionExpress RoutesHoliday SchedulesInter-County ShuttleRegular Bus ServicesRide RequestRide to ReadSkywayStadium Shuttle ServiceSystem MapTrolleyBus Schedules
Schedules are current even though the effective date may not reflect the current year or month.

Certain schedules are also available in PDF Format .
( Acrobat Reader required)


Purchase online bus or shuttle passes here.

ARLINGTON/BEACHES
AR6 University Park / Regency
AR7 Atlantic / Monument
X2 Beaches Express
Arlington Community Shuttle
Beaches Community Shuttle

CROSSTOWN
CT1 FSCJ North / Main Street/Mandarin
CT2 Townsend / Phoenix
CT3 Air JTA / Powers
CT4 Atlantic Village / Amtrak

INTERLINER SERVICE
B7 Commonwealth / Baymeadows
F1 Florida / Broadway / Detroit
K2 Grand Park / Amtrak / Beach Blvd.
L7 Soutel / The Avenues
L8 Lem Turner / Ramona
L9 Tallulah / Southpoint
P4 Myrtle Ave. / Roosevelt / 103rd.
R5 FSCJ Kent / Regency / FSCJ South Campus / UNF / Town Center

NORTHSIDE
CT1 FSCJ North / Main Street / Mandarin
CT3 Air JTA / Powers
M5 Moncrief B
N6 Sherwood
NS19 Avenue B / River City Marketplace
Highlands Ride Request
Oceanway Ride Request
Dinsmore - River City Marketplace Community Shuttle 
Golfbrook Community Shuttle   
Edgewood Community Shuttle
Northside Community Shuttle

SOUTHSIDE
CT1 FSCJ North / Main Street / Mandarin
CT2 Townsend / Phoenix
CT3 Air JTA / Powers
CT4 Atlantic Village / Amtrak
S1 Regency / The Avenues
SS6 Beach Blvd. / Town Center / UNF
SS8 Spring Park / San Souci
SS35 Sunbeam / Old St. Augustine
SS50 Mandarin Express
U2 University Boulevard Connector
Mandarin Community Shuttle

WESTSIDE
B9 Beaver / Lane
P3 Ernest / Jammes
P4 Myrtle Ave. / Roosevelt / 103rd
WS2 Blanding / Orange Park
WS6 Stockton / Wilson
WS7 Normandy
WS12 Murray Hill / Edgewood
WS91 Westside / Flagler Express
X4 Orange Park Express
Baldwin Commuter Shuttle
Cecil Community Shuttle
NAS - Ortega Community Shuttle

MIDTOWN
Talleyrand Community Shuttle

EXPRESS ROUTES
SS50 Mandarin Express
WS91 Westside / Flagler Center Express
X2 Beaches Express
X4 Orange Park Express
WS52 Blanding Express


Un-F-Ing believable - Every bus route has it's own downloadable schedule.  Hmm, who whould of thought.  PDF format also!

I guess you finally gave up with BT on the WI issues?  Go back to politics.  You don't need to know anything factual to debate there, just som wiki-references.

I ride the system 4-5 days a week - so I think that puts me in a slightly better position to know what's happening.  I attended the BRT meeting a few weeks ago.  Didn't see you there.  Nuff said.

[exnewsman]

I'm wondering how JTA would be received if it scaled back its service to fewer routes in fewer areas and concentrated on more frequency for those routes. Something like 5 min or 10 min headways on all major high ridership routes. I see a problem in Jacksonville, with its size and geographic limitations, taht everyone wants the same quality service regardless of where they live and the number of riders in that area.

There is a finite amount of money to work with when it comes to transit or anythign else. So I ask is it better to give a smaller group better service or have less quality service for a larger group? I just asking.

As to BRT - I agree that real time information is a feature that should be included as it significantly enhances the passenger experiences and it will provide riders with critical data that will reduce stress (as one poster suggested). I think that JTA must have immediate success with BRT out of the box and the North corridor provides the best opportunity for that. Otherwise the outcry will be loud to kill the rest of the BRT projects.

[urbaknight]

If the BRT is heading north, why do they not link the line with the airport. Or does the city what the airport to be like amshack?

[thelakelander]

I'm wondering how JTA would be received if it scaled back its service to fewer routes in fewer areas and concentrated on more frequency for those routes. Something like 5 min or 10 min headways on all major high ridership routes. I see a problem in Jacksonville, with its size and geographic limitations, that everyone wants the same quality service regardless of where they live and the number of riders in that area.

There is a finite amount of money to work with when it comes to transit or anything else. So I ask is it better to give a smaller group better service or have less quality service for a larger group? I just asking.

I believe this is the way to go.  Jacksonville is a county (as far as land area goes).  Instead of spreading our resources to thin initially, its better to work within the urban context that supports mass transit use.  Once a viable base system is established, then look to expand out into areas that (once again) have the ability to support mass transit.

As to BRT - I agree that real time information is a feature that should be included as it significantly enhances the passenger experiences and it will provide riders with critical data that will reduce stress (as one poster suggested). I think that JTA must have immediate success with BRT out of the box and the North corridor provides the best opportunity for that. Otherwise the outcry will be loud to kill the rest of the BRT projects.

I'd openly question if all the BRT corridors are really worth pursuing.  The SE and SW corridors are highly debateable and a chunk of the DT proposal duplicates the skyway.  I'd also question (as I have in this thread), should we be waiting for a $21 million handout in a corridor like this before making improvements.  We can cut down that $21 million price tag buy getting creative on an operational level, bus investment (this is probably 40-50% the cost of BRT alone) and with our existing funding mechanisms.  I believe this must be done because 2017 is quickly approaching.  If JTA doesn't figure this stuff out and get at least one decent service developed that they can point to as a mass transit success, they may lose that gas tax money.

[wsansewjs]

My point was to Redneck not understanding the problems with JTA's current non existent system of updating passengers.

Community ShuttlesCommuter ShuttleConnexionExpress RoutesHoliday SchedulesInter-County ShuttleRegular Bus ServicesRide RequestRide to ReadSkywayStadium Shuttle ServiceSystem MapTrolleyBus Schedules
Schedules are current even though the effective date may not reflect the current year or month.

Certain schedules are also available in PDF Format .
( Acrobat Reader required)


Purchase online bus or shuttle passes here.

ARLINGTON/BEACHES
AR6 University Park / Regency
AR7 Atlantic / Monument
X2 Beaches Express
Arlington Community Shuttle
Beaches Community Shuttle

CROSSTOWN
CT1 FSCJ North / Main Street/Mandarin
CT2 Townsend / Phoenix
CT3 Air JTA / Powers
CT4 Atlantic Village / Amtrak

INTERLINER SERVICE
B7 Commonwealth / Baymeadows
F1 Florida / Broadway / Detroit
K2 Grand Park / Amtrak / Beach Blvd.
L7 Soutel / The Avenues
L8 Lem Turner / Ramona
L9 Tallulah / Southpoint
P4 Myrtle Ave. / Roosevelt / 103rd.
R5 FSCJ Kent / Regency / FSCJ South Campus / UNF / Town Center

NORTHSIDE
CT1 FSCJ North / Main Street / Mandarin
CT3 Air JTA / Powers
M5 Moncrief B
N6 Sherwood
NS19 Avenue B / River City Marketplace
Highlands Ride Request
Oceanway Ride Request
Dinsmore - River City Marketplace Community Shuttle 
Golfbrook Community Shuttle   
Edgewood Community Shuttle
Northside Community Shuttle

SOUTHSIDE
CT1 FSCJ North / Main Street / Mandarin
CT2 Townsend / Phoenix
CT3 Air JTA / Powers
CT4 Atlantic Village / Amtrak
S1 Regency / The Avenues
SS6 Beach Blvd. / Town Center / UNF
SS8 Spring Park / San Souci
SS35 Sunbeam / Old St. Augustine
SS50 Mandarin Express
U2 University Boulevard Connector
Mandarin Community Shuttle

WESTSIDE
B9 Beaver / Lane
P3 Ernest / Jammes
P4 Myrtle Ave. / Roosevelt / 103rd
WS2 Blanding / Orange Park
WS6 Stockton / Wilson
WS7 Normandy
WS12 Murray Hill / Edgewood
WS91 Westside / Flagler Express
X4 Orange Park Express
Baldwin Commuter Shuttle
Cecil Community Shuttle
NAS - Ortega Community Shuttle

MIDTOWN
Talleyrand Community Shuttle

EXPRESS ROUTES
SS50 Mandarin Express
WS91 Westside / Flagler Center Express
X2 Beaches Express
X4 Orange Park Express
WS52 Blanding Express

Un-F-Ing believable - Every bus route has it's own downloadable schedule.  Hmm, who whould of thought.  PDF format also!

I guess you finally gave up with BT on the WI issues?  Go back to politics.  You don't need to know anything factual to debate there, just som wiki-references.

I ride the system 4-5 days a week - so I think that puts me in a slightly better position to know what's happening.  I attended the BRT meeting a few weeks ago.  Didn't see you there.  Nuff said.

I always carry my printed copies of the bus routes in my bag all the time. 99% of the time, they are useless, because the intended times were never accurate. You should known already that Jacksonville is full of cars, which affects the buses performance and its migration through the sprawling roaring traffic.

Having a real-time update of the system would relief the stress upon the bus riders, put less pressure on the JTA phone line to assist other customers for specific reasons, and the best of all, we all live in the 21st century where the technology is ready to be harvested, having real-time information to the riders that allows more feedback to the transit agency to improve their system's accuracy and consistency. I can go on all day of how dynamic and fluid a force can be reckon upon another force that changes everything in real-time.

For the workshops, I never attended them because the arrangement doesn't allow me due to my personal priorities. Another good reason why I don't attend the workshops because the time to get there and back home combined takes longer THAN the duration of the workshop itself. Seriously, HOLY FUCK, that is pretty pathetic for a transit system like that.

-Josh

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

L8 - NB

[thelakelander]

Having a real-time update of the system would relief the stress upon the bus riders, put less pressure on the JTA phone line to assist other customers for specific reasons, and the best of all, we all live in the 21st century where the technology is ready to be harvested, having real-time information to the riders that allows more feedback to the transit agency to improve their system's accuracy and consistency.

I agree.  However, should we not make any improvements until we have $21 million to invest in BRT, as proposed?  Or could we get away with the Chicago option as a short term improvement and take advantage of other creative financing and operational improvements to drop the overall cost (dropping the overall cost would make it easier financially to invest in frills such as RTI)?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

L7 - NB

[peestandingup]

My point was to Redneck not understanding the problems with JTA's current non existent system of updating passengers.

Un-F-Ing believable - Every bus route has it's own downloadable schedule.  Hmm, who whould of thought.  PDF format also!

I guess you finally gave up with BT on the WI issues?  Go back to politics.  You don't need to know anything factual to debate there, just som wiki-references.

I ride the system 4-5 days a week - so I think that puts me in a slightly better position to know what's happening.  I attended the BRT meeting a few weeks ago.  Didn't see you there.  Nuff said.

Dude, c'mon. You must have awesome luck because my bus is early ALL THE TIME. A lot of times I bike to the bus stop, sit there for 10-15 minutes, only to realize it has already ran. Guess that'll be another hour I'll sit here in the middle of nowhere in the rain with ants crawling up my legs waiting for the next one, durrr. Yeah, I dont think so.

Transit, all transit, needs at least a real time location system of some kind. Every decent city does it, its not expensive & it isnt rocket science. This is Transportation 101. I could give each one of these drivers a cheap ass modern cell phone with a GPS chip in it & get this done in an afternoon, and Im not even joking. And it doesnt even have to be that. I dont care if its an online browser based system, a phone app, old school text messages, an LCD sign at the stop, hell, a damn dry erase board at each stop. DO SOMETHING.

This should have been done years ago & its an embarrassment. End of story, so please drop it already & stop trying to make people feel like idiots for bringing it up. This is one of those things thats simply not up for discussion.

[thelakelander]

For what its worth.....

Random BRT basic investment costs (not including cost of new buses):

$500,000 per mile - Street Improvements

$450,000 per station - Station Costs (Including amenities such as Real Time Information)

$25,000 per signal - Traffic Signal Upgrade (for Traffic Signal Priority)

http://www.kimley-horn.com/Projects/fasttrackfresnocounty/downloads/PTIS/KHA/City%20Council%20Prsnt/Fresno%20BRT%20Final%20Presentation%20(8-26-08).pdf

[wsansewjs]

Why would we spend 20 million on real time information that is free on google transit?

The JTA website is poorly managed. Whoever behind the website has no far insight into web technology. I am a full-time web developer / designer for a local design company. I can give a full list of major flaws in a heartbeat to the web developer of the JTA website.

I can personally create an app for iPhone and Android phones that would use the Google's Map Transit Function especially IF the goddamn fucking idiots at JTA can bobble their heads together and take advantage of the free technological opportunity.

[fieldafm]

The Southeast and DT BRT service is a wasteful duplication of services as they mirror existing fixed transit(Skyway) or future fixed transit(commuter rail).  Furthermore, DT is already served by regular bus service and several PCT trolley routes.  The boondoggle of duplication is enough to make your head spin.

I was at the BRT meeting and I believe BRT service in this corridor is truly needed.  I have the picture at home, but there was a map that showed the significant amount of the population in this corridor that relies on mass transit to get to/from work.  The city needs to provide frequent, reliable service to these neighborhoods.

That being said, Lake asked about how many queue jumps were going to be used in the plan to which the reply was 'none at all'.  So he point blank asked 'where is all the money being used on'  After a blank stare and a moment of consultation with other JTA employees we finally received an answer that had something to do with ROW aquisition.  I pointed to the map and asked where the ROW aquisitions will be and the answer was 'not very much at all, just along this portion here'. 

It was clear then, BRT service in this corridor was a means to buy new buses and much less to do with reliable service.

However, should we not make any improvements until we have $21 million to invest in BRT, as proposed?  Or could we get away with the Chicago option as a short term improvement and take advantage of other creative financing and operational improvements to drop the overall cost (dropping the overall cost would make it easier financially to invest in frills such as RTI)?

This pretty much sums it up. 

Adding simple free technology to your route system along with combining routes and increasing headways by adding one to two busses along key corridors would greatly enhance not only the end user experience but also reduce operational costs.  This would free up JTA to go out and find money for fixed transit, improving existing roadways and creating a city-wide bicycle network.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I want to take a few steps back and apologize to Lake for assisting in hijacking his thread.  My bad. 

BRT - North Corridor - seems an un-godly expense without any real payoff - in either new ridership, better service or any real improvements to the area.  As mentioned before, it seems that they are using an established route with good ridership, throwing some new branded busses, stations and some un-needed tech into something in order to 'prove' that BRT is a good thing.  You're already pretty, you don't need to dress like a whore for attention.

If this were 'free' money from the Feds that would be given away anyhow - like the HSR deal, then I wouldn't be as opposed, but the fact that we are putting up the starter money to get something on the back-end is ludicrous.  1 more bus on both the L7 & the L8 would be a great improvement.  Spend the other money tagged for this project getting more reliable services in other areas - Josh's for instance. 

Signal Priority - isn't this the same tech that would be used not only by JTA, but EMS, JSO, JFRD etc?   If it is, then it's an expenditure that should be considered, but not JUST for BRT.

And if the busses were running sub 10-minute headways, then I don't think that 'real-time' updates are necessary at all.  The google thing is for another thread on inadaquacies.  I can see where RT updates would be usefull at major hubs - Gateway, Kent Campus, Regency Mall, etc. but it seems to be a waste at your regular joe stops.  Does the scroll on the Skyway make you feel better knowing that the train will be arriving in 6 minutes?  Not to me,.  I still have to sit there and wait.