Florida's firm HSR Plans were based on Decades long Planning

[FayeforCure]

HSR was not just an "option" as the title of one thread indicates. Neither do we need to revisit routes and stops, as one of the hallmarks of the project was that it was "shovel ready" due to decades worth of planning.



France's TGV presenting in 1988

Throughout the 1980s and 1990s, different groups advocated for the development of high-speed railways in Florida. After more than two decades of organization, lobbying, work by state officials, and development proposals by private companies, the dreams of state-of-the-art high-speed rails connecting Florida's cities have yet to be realized.

http://www.floridamemory.com/PhotographicCollection/photo_exhibits/trains/trains4.cfm

And if the Republican led legislature is right..............the plan was fully set in motion by Gov. Charlie Crist and Scott had no legal way to stop it. State funds of $300 were already appropriated in the previous legislature and the federal $2.4 were already commited.

Evidence is mounting that Gov. Rick Scott is interested in getting on a national tea party train and Wednesday's high speed rail announcement was just one example.

As this story explains, the governor has a case of Obama-itis: nearly every announcement is laced with anti-Obama rhetoric.

The high speed rail announcement was abruptly pulled together Wednesday morning ........


The governor clearly did not have the announcement on his radar when he met with Senate Transporation Committee Chairman Jack Latvala to talk about pending transportation issues the day before.

And the governor's office gave House and Senate leaders only five minutes warning before the press conference to announce his rejection of the federal rail money.

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/the-buzz-florida-politics/content/gov-rick-scott-cancels-train-florida-he-courts-national-movement

[Ocklawaha]

Big deal Faye, so was the Titanic's planning...

And history will prove that they both end up the same way.

Just because a bunch of starry eyed "believers" decided this is a magic bullet 10, 20, or 50 years ago, doesn't make it right. The Hindenburg certainly had the blessing of the party, but it was badly planned. Monorail, which most people think is the "train of the future," has been around as long as railroads... Doesn't work on a grand scale, never did, never will.

Florida High Speed Rail, as planned

• *Misses the market almost completely...
  *In spite of the lies to the contrary in the documents, it will do NOTHING for FLORIDA RESIDENTS.
  *In spite of the falsehoods in the records, it will not relieve one traffic jam on I-4.
  *No matter what they wrote, stations 5 miles out of little towns between Disney and Tampa are a waste of money.
  *They claim this will help modernize the railroads in Florida, LIE, it will do NOTHING for the railroads in Florida.
  *They project passenger ridership as high as the Northeast Corridor never mind that we have 1/5 of the population and have not had a population dependent on passenger trains since 1929.
  *There are claims in the documents that this will stop sprawl, how? By stringing stations so far out that every town with a station will have to jump miles out to reach it? Just the opposite is true.
  *The claims of "intermodal connectivity" is also bull shit, as Florida doesn't have but one city with anything like real mass transit, and Orlando or Tampa are not it.

Faye, this is a fantasy project, pushed by politicians that don't know a locomotive from a DC-3, hyped by actors, and business men and women who know even less. Paraded in front of a bunch of star struck Euro-Wannabes who don't know any better. Meanwhile the general consensus on the Florida project within the industry is: "Impending Disaster for Rail."

Florida has a history of "STUPID," when it comes to transportation:

USF in Tampa, the CUTR, and the National BRT Institute IN FLORIDA have convinced half the government that BUS RAPID TRANSIT really is JUST LIKE RAIL ONLY CHEAPER.

Miami built a metro then quit without expanding it into the distant suburbs, then complain that it's too expensive and people don't ride.

Jacksonville built a Skyway between nothing and nowhere by way of not much, and also complains that the people love their cars too much, it doesn't work and people don't ride.

When Jimmy Carter discontinued the Champion between Tampa-Jax-NYC guess what Florida did? When he then cut off the Floridian between Miami/Tampa-Jax-Chicago do you know what Florida did? NOTHING! NADA!

Tampa designed a Light Rail System, that would have cost about 5x what the new subways in Los Angeles are costing, and it went down in flames, they can't figure out why.

Tampa built a streetcar from one amusement area to another amusement area and when they discovered not many people commute between clubs and aquariums, they cried that it had failed, and rushed to push it downtown.

Florida actually came up with a FLORIDA AMTRAK SYSTEM and in 2000 one could buy a pass to most anywhere in the state, but we only funded one train, and that only for a year, allowed Amtrak to remove 5 daily trains including two completely different markets, then claimed nobody would ride.

We paid millions to rebuild the CSX line to host the Sunset Limited between Orlando and Los Angeles, though we never got Amtrak to serve the route in daylight hours, never thought about saving money by sending it's cars on south from Jacksonville via the other Amtrak trains, all the way to Miami/Tampa, then let Amtrak use a storm as an excuse to walk away from it... Do we get our money back? Guess...

We paid over 2 million to rebuild the old Union Station in Ocala, into a regional transportation center, serving Amtrak, Greyhound and Ocala Transit, then recently allowed Amtrak to kill the entire route from Jax-Tampa via Ocala.

And today, they have convinced most of MJ, the State and the Nation, that we have the superior shovel ready project. Hey people, the record says otherwise.

...AND YOU TRUST THESE NUTS TO DO THE RIGHT THING BASED ON AN INSURANCE SALESMAN, AND HIS POLITICO WIFE?

We MUST go back to start and get railroad people to design this thing, with the FDOT largely out of the way...
As you know I support HIGH SPEED RAIL, and I support HIGH SPEED RAIL IN FLORIDA, but I sure as hell will never support this stupid AIRPORT to CARNIVAL to AMUSEMENT PARK to CAMPUS to LAKELAND to "Rosa Parks" in TAMPA - Its an irresponsible and badly thought out plan with every indication that it is more about free money then Florida residents, or passengers.

OCKLAWAHA

[Shwaz]

I hope I'm not the only that noticed the lines drawn on the plan pictured track most of the state... Not just 84 miles of suburbs. In fact it appears the Lakeland corridor wasn't included at all back in those days.

[FayeforCure]

Look Ock, I don't doubt your knowledge on trains, but to claim you know more than the 8 (EIGHT) consortiums vying to build and operate Florida's HSR is a little, what shall we say, "conceited?"

To one member of the Florida Mobility Partnersâ€"one consortium that had expressed interest in building Florida’s high speed rail lineâ€"the announcement was downright disturbing. “What does [the Governor] have to lose?” Nora Friend, the Vice President of Public Affairs and Business Development at the Spanish rail company Talgo asked, when I reach her by phone today. “To allow all of these strong companies and

concessionaires to do their own diligence and to come and see if they could make it work? What would the state lose?”

Indeed, Scott’s decision came at a highly disorienting moment for prospective bidders. At least eight teams had assembled and were anxious for the state to issue its formal Request for Qualifications. The RFQ was drafted late last year and, according to Friend, bidders were expecting its formal issue within a month.

The state was clear in its hope that the eventual public-private partnership would be a DBOM&F (Design-Build-Operate-Maintain-and-Finance) arrangement. As such, to be eligible, each consortium bidding would have had to present a financing plan as part of their initial proposal. At a hearing in November, Friend said, her consortium had gone on the record as saying they were confident they would be willing to accept the risk of construction costs, currently estimated at $280 million (or roughly 10 percent of the total cost). This, of course, is the very risk from which the Governor wanted to save Florida taxpayers.

But there’s only one way to find out who’s right and who’s wrong about whether the private sector is willing to bear the risk in building high speed rail: let the bid process move forward. And let the consortia place their bids.

http://transportationnation.org/2011/02/18/florida-high-speed-rail-bidders-frustrated-perplexed/

[thelakelander]

I've disagreed with Faye on several issues concerning this project but allowing it to be bid on by the private sector groups is an example of getting FDOT out of the way and giving rail professionals a chance to look at this. At this point, I haven't seen one logical argument to support letting $2.4 billion move on to other states before opening it up to the bidding process.

[yapp1850]

i glad high speed is cancelled now florida can plan a real intercity rail network, rick scott does have 118 million in his budget for this year comming up for amtrak fec line and 269 million for sunrail for the next 2 years

[Garden guy]

This is a political fight over trains...the dems want our society to advance into the 20th century at least and rep. want everything to stay the way they were in 1930....dems see things helping the public and the republicans it seems only want the rich to get richer...two totally different approaches. Our nation is behind the world is soooo many sectors and this is only one more of them. It seem we americans think we are all that but in reallity...we are just a bunch of backward uneducated wierdos...if we keep this up...i see our country being taken over within the next 100 years...it's all our fault....we forgot to educate our kids and we gave all of our cash to the top 2 percent of our people....we're so smart are'nt we?

[mtraininjax]

HSR is dead in Florida, why can't we just all get along and move on?

[Ocklawaha]

Look Ock, I don't doubt your knowledge on trains, but to claim you know more than the 8 (EIGHT) consortiums vying to build and operate Florida's HSR is a little, what shall we say, "conceited?"

You can call it anything you want Faye, and when this thing causes American HIGH SPEED RAIL projects to implode we can all say, "8 consortium's can't be wrong..."  and the Skyway carrys 60,000 passengers a day. How many people would have to claim that pigs fly for you to believe it? 8? 

Now you want me silent because it sounds like I believe that I know more then these groups and planners? Hell if it helps any, FORGET ME, just listen to common sense responses to the assinine claims Florida is making for this project. If I knew NOTHING about rail, I'd probably be cheering this thing on too.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

This is a political fight over trains...the dems want our society to advance into the 20th century at least and rep. want everything to stay the way they were in 1930....dems see things helping the public and the republicans it seems only want the rich to get richer...two totally different approaches. Our nation is behind the world is soooo many sectors and this is only one more of them. It seem we americans think we are all that but in reallity...we are just a bunch of backward uneducated wierdos...if we keep this up...i see our country being taken over within the next 100 years...it's all our fault....we forgot to educate our kids and we gave all of our cash to the top 2 percent of our people....we're so smart are'nt we?

Your wrong Garden Guy, this is a fight over a train that makes no sense, reeks of government funding for Disney and Shamoo, and won't carry any Floridians. It has nothing to do with liberals, conservatives, Democrats or Republicans. The concept of a train that doesn't connect the corridor, or the urban end points, down an isolated freeway, between theme parks an airport and a Rosa Parks bus stop is horribly flawed.

You will not find a bigger supporter of rail projects then me, I've done it most of my life, but I didn't support the Skyway, have never supported the Las Vegas-Los Angeles Monorail, the Orlando Airport Maglev, or a train down I-4 that doesn't penetrate the Orlando metropolitan area. If this thing were just changed around so that it would do a few of the things they claim it will do, I'd be all over it.

OCKLAWAHA

[mtraininjax]

Your wrong Garden Guy, this is a fight over a train that makes no sense, reeks of government funding for Disney and Shamoo, and won't carry any Floridians. It has nothing to do with liberals, conservatives, Democrats or Republicans. The concept of a train that doesn't connect the corridor, or the urban end points, down an isolated freeway, between theme parks an airport and a Rosa Parks bus stop is horribly flawed.

You will not find a bigger supporter of rail projects then me, I've done it most of my life, but I didn't support the Skyway, have never supported the Las Vegas-Los Angeles Monorail, the Orlando Airport Maglev, or a train down I-4 that doesn't penetrate the Orlando metropolitan area. If this thing were just changed around so that it would do a few of the things they claim it will do, I'd be all over it.

+1

[JeffreyS]

Your wrong Garden Guy, this is a fight over a train that makes no sense, reeks of government funding for Disney and Shamoo, and won't carry any Floridians. It has nothing to do with liberals, conservatives, Democrats or Republicans. The concept of a train that doesn't connect the corridor, or the urban end points, down an isolated freeway, between theme parks an airport and a Rosa Parks bus stop is horribly flawed.

You will not find a bigger supporter of rail projects then me, I've done it most of my life, but I didn't support the Skyway, have never supported the Las Vegas-Los Angeles Monorail, the Orlando Airport Maglev, or a train down I-4 that doesn't penetrate the Orlando metropolitan area. If this thing were just changed around so that it would do a few of the things they claim it will do, I'd be all over it.

+1

This is exactly why you let the private sector have a crack at this before you scuttle it.  Let's see if the mighty private sector can make lemonade.

[JeffreyS]

Ock you are a professional if you were with a big company given this corridor and 2.5 billion of federal money as starting point what could you do with it?

[thelakelander]

I don't know about Ock, but I'd establish a system where infrastructure is used for both express and local service. My line would be a hybrid of HSR and commuter rail services. Local service would make additional stops in places like Seminole Hard Rock Casino, Brandon and US 27, while the express service would move at a high speed with limited stops along the way. This would dramatically increase the potential riderside base for both local residents and tourist.  I'd cut capital costs by initially using conventional technology and more simplistic stations.  I'd also cut station costs down by taking advantage of existing interchanges for access (similar to Chicago's El in the middle of the Dan Ryan), where the opportunity presents itself. For station sites that would be donated (ex. Disney, USF Poly, etc.), I'd design and market them to allow as much TOD as possible. In other words, I'd take a page out of history and use transit to stimulate land development income.  Other than that, I'd pimp the system out as much as possible to increase profitability.  This means, I'm allowing train wrap advertisement, selling system, station and even garage naming rights when the opportunity arises.

[FayeforCure]

This is a political fight over trains...the dems want our society to advance into the 20th century at least and rep. want everything to stay the way they were in 1930....dems see things helping the public and the republicans it seems only want the rich to get richer...two totally different approaches. Our nation is behind the world is soooo many sectors and this is only one more of them. It seem we americans think we are all that but in reallity...we are just a bunch of backward uneducated wierdos...if we keep this up...i see our country being taken over within the next 100 years...it's all our fault....we forgot to educate our kids and we gave all of our cash to the top 2 percent of our people....we're so smart are'nt we?

+1

The question is: do we need to get the rich more money to spend or help the middle class have more money to spend?

Consumer spending makes up 70% of GDP.

Having the top 1% of our population make as much as the bottom 95% of our population is a recipe for economic disaster.

After all: How much more "consuming" can that top 1% do to support our economy?

A strong and prosperous middle class is the backbone of a vibrant economy, since they are the ones that make up the bulk of our domestic consumption. Unfortunately Republicans are doing everthing to destroy our middle class.