Mike Hogan Wants To Build Convention Center, Moran Wins Straw Vote

[copperfiend]

I parked in the lot just north of the Main Street homeless bathroom (pocket park)

Sad but true.

[thelakelander]

If two cruise ports were designed, why not put the smaller one right in downtown instead of Talleyrand?  Would it be only be done to make up a reason to preserve the Ford plant, despite being in the middle of a disconnected industrial area?

[Dapperdan]

I would imagine the Heart and Matthews Bridges would stop any Cruise terminals from being built toward downtown.

[thelakelander]

How large was the cruise ship that was next to the Hyatt, during the 2005 Super Bowl?

I guess my concern would be, if we're going to go through the trouble of making two terminals, we might as well put the smaller one in the heart of the core.  I say this because Talleyrand is so disconnected from anything else, that if it's the only viable location for a smaller terminal west of the Dames Point, you might as well build one main complex east of the bridge.

[Wacca Pilatka]

I love the Ford plant, but from a connectivity issue, putting a terminal there is even less sensible than picking the Prime as the convention center site.

[adam421]

I'm excited to see a mayoral candidate come out and specifically point out that we need a convention center, cruise terminal, and say "Let's get the city owned property off the river and get that property on the tax roll." NO OTHER CANIDATE IS SAYING IT!

Moran and Mullaney have worked in previous administrations - they would be the same ole, same ole. 

I'm leaning heavily for Hogan!

[Ocklawaha]

If two cruise ports were designed, why not put the smaller one right in downtown instead of Talleyrand?  Would it be only be done to make up a reason to preserve the Ford plant, despite being in the middle of a disconnected industrial area?

I'm with you on this Lake, but I'd consider the large terminal at the FORD PLANT. Several reasons...

1. Easily connected to the core with FIXED ROUTE transit...ships + streetcars = good.
2. Such an extension would be necessity take the tourist/visitors right past the stadium, Arena, Fairgrounds (at  least for now), Baseball Park, Historic St. Luke's-proposed museum/archives site, Hogan's Creek (which as we proved Saturday is WIDE OPEN to become Jacksonville's BRICKTOWN CANAL-TROLLEY PARK.  
3. Deep Channel right up to the dock, won't need much dredging if any.
4. Classic Neo-Industrial era historic site.
5. Not generally known, the property is a city block wide and runs all the way from TALLEYRAND to the water. IE: All of the ugly in front and immediately surrounding it could be converted into park space and parking.

I dunno the idea has a lot of positives, BUT IT MUST BE CONNECTED.

This is how big the property really is. Take down a few sheds, a big metal building, bodda-bing bodda-biff CRUISE TERMINAL in a park.

I have also been told by maritime interests that the shipyard under the Hart is about the only thing out here that isn't scheduled for or desired for demolition. According to one captain, the silos are history.

In any case, a smaller terminal-welcome center should be located on the waterfront downtown.

[mtraininjax]

Jacksonville needs execution.

+1

Give the land of the Old City Hall and the old Courthouse to Hyatt and allow them to create a private convention center. Jax wins with the bedtax and fees associated with the conventions there. The only way to get convention built when you are staring down a 60 million budget hole is with private investment leading the way.

Enough talk already, how about some action. Mullaney really needs 34 points? I am exhausted listening to just 3.

[thelakelander]

Ock, the main thing I would have against such a plan is the cost and the fact that it spreads out development.  You're easily over $300 million and if you have that much money to spend, I'd make the argument that it would go further in other areas of the urban core where people actually live.  As for the waterfront at Talleyrand, I have no problem with it remaining industrial.  If anything, we need more maritime related industry there.

[tufsu1]

I'm excited to see a mayoral candidate come out and specifically point out that we need a convention center, cruise terminal, and say "Let's get the city owned property off the river and get that property on the tax roll." NO OTHER CANIDATE IS SAYING IT!

How does Mr. Hogan plan to fund these while cutting government spending?

[Charles Hunter]

I'm excited to see a mayoral candidate come out and specifically point out that we need a convention center, cruise terminal, and say "Let's get the city owned property off the river and get that property on the tax roll." NO OTHER CANIDATE IS SAYING IT!

Pixie dust?

How does Mr. Hogan plan to fund these while cutting government spending?

[PeeJayEss]

That Miracle Miles looks to be a bit more than just a mile, maybe they should rethink the name.

I don't think downtown would benefit by having a cruise terminal right in town. The entire terminal will basically be no different than an industrial site, you'll have huge ships blocking the river view from anywhere on the ground, and you'd require thousands of parking spaces for people taking cruises. I can't think of many developments that would be less conducive to walkability, water access, or visual appeal. Its not like the people taking cruises will be hanging out in the city before or after their cruise,so all you do is increase vehicle traffic and area used for vehicle storage (basically some big ships next to a couple city blocks of concrete).

What is supposed to be involved in the Miracle Mile apart from the Landing (which is far from miraculous) and a cruise terminal several miles away? Any city-led development along the river will not work no matter how much money you put into it if, like the Landing, it is only appealing from the water and not connected to the rest of the town. And if they add a bunch of parking lots, forget about it.

[thelakelander]

Cruise terminals don't have to be industrial.  Here are a few that benefit their urban cores by bringing more people into a compact area, which supports the local retail, dining and entertainment scene.

DT Norfolk's terminal:




Tampa's terminal:




Key West's terminal:


Unfortunately, our core is a good distance and three bridges from the coast.

[PeeJayEss]

Cruise terminals don't have to be industrial.  Here are a few that benefit their urban cores by bringing more people into a compact area, which supports the local retail, dining and entertainment scene.

The Norfolk one looks good in the picture, but it doesn't appear to be particularly walkable or have significant retail in the vicinity.
The Tampa picture with the huge ship in it does not look appealing at all, though the streetcar tracks are promising. However, if you look at it on a map, it is not at all in a downtown area. That apparent activity is the result of an aquarium and a huge mall filled with chain stores, all surrounded by parking lots and garages. Not the best recipe for a thriving downtown.
The Key West port does look legitimately great, but it is not really a terminal at all, as Key West is not the home port for any big cruise ships. It is a port of call, meaning Mallory Square Dock (pictured) is a destination rather than a point of embarkation. So yea, if you dock a ship filled with thousands of people somewhere for a day, that place will probably get an economic benefit. If you can convince a cruiseline to start taking trips TO Jacksonville, then you might see some nice economic benefit by parking the ships downtown. However, if you are leaving from Jacksonville to cruise somewhere else, I don't think you're going to see much benefit in Jacksonville except to the cruise industry and the airport (and rail between the two if it existed!). People don't get to the terminal and start walking around town with all their luggage. They just get on the ship.

Even if cruise passengers were going to businesses near the terminal, if you don't have multiple ships leaving and arriving each day, you're not going to have the consistent customers needed to keep a business open. Its like trying to use a football stadium to encourage development: You can do great business on the 10 days per year that there's an event, but that won't keep you in business. Putting a cruise terminal downtown will not increase cruise traffic, and I believe it does more harm than good for downtown development. That space can be better utilized, and you don't cut off a significant portion of the river right where you'd like to have access. More cruise traffic is certainly better for the city, but I don't think downtown is the place for it.

[thelakelander]

Cruise terminals don't have to be industrial.  Here are a few that benefit their urban cores by bringing more people into a compact area, which supports the local retail, dining and entertainment scene.

The Norfolk one looks good in the picture, but it doesn't appear to be particularly walkable or have significant retail in the vicinity.

Looks can be deceiving.  Norfolk is pretty walkable and the amount of retail within walking distance of the terminal is more than DT Jax will see combined in the next decade.  Here are a few images of this area from a summer 2007 visit.


The Norfolk cruise terminal was constructed as an anchor to Tower Point Park.


Assuming a walk from the cruise terminal through the park is about a block, MacArthur Center Mall is about a four walk block from the terminal.  The mall is anchored by a Nordstrom, Dillards and Regal Cinemas 18, has restaurants facing the downtown street and does not have any surface parking.  The blocks between the terminal and mall are lined with a mix of lofts, offices, restaurants and local retail.


Nauticus, The National Maritime Center, is constructed on a former pier adjacent to Town Point Park.  Immediately next to the popular museum is the permanently docked USS Wisconsin, which is open for public tours.  These attractions serve as the cruise ship's immediate neighborhoods in the park.


Waterside, Norfolk's version of the Landing, is located on the south side of the park.  Its filled with ground level restaurants and bars.

All in all, if you're going to integrate a cruise ship terminal into a downtown environment, Norfolk may serve as the best example.

The Tampa picture with the huge ship in it does not look appealing at all, though the streetcar tracks are promising. However, if you look at it on a map, it is not at all in a downtown area. That apparent activity is the result of an aquarium and a huge mall filled with chain stores, all surrounded by parking lots and garages. Not the best recipe for a thriving downtown.

The funny thing is Tampa's Channel District (our version of the Stadium District/Bay Street area) has just as much urban building density as DT Jax.  Something to also keep in mind is not to look at a cruise ship terminal as a one trick pony that will spur tons of economic development.  The context and places complementing uses within a compact setting of each other is what help's each individual use succeed on a larger level.  With that said, Tampa's terminal, Channelside and the aquarium would all be worse off if not located immediately adjacent to each other to create synergy and vibrancy.

The Key West port does look legitimately great, but it is not really a terminal at all, as Key West is not the home port for any big cruise ships. It is a port of call, meaning Mallory Square Dock (pictured) is a destination rather than a point of embarkation. So yea, if you dock a ship filled with thousands of people somewhere for a day, that place will probably get an economic benefit. If you can convince a cruiseline to start taking trips TO Jacksonville, then you might see some nice economic benefit by parking the ships downtown. However, if you are leaving from Jacksonville to cruise somewhere else, I don't think you're going to see much benefit in Jacksonville except to the cruise industry and the airport (and rail between the two if it existed!). People don't get to the terminal and start walking around town with all their luggage. They just get on the ship.

You mentioned something important here about Mallory Square. It's a destination.  A good terminal should be more than a point of embarkment.  It should be designed to fit within the surrounding context and help that particular area be a destination itself.  Norfolk's and Tampa's cruise terminals do just that. Regardless of where Jax's terminal ends up, if we really want to get economic benefit out of it, it needs to be a part of a destination.  This is the reason, I actually prefer the Mayport location.  A well integrated, mixed-use terminal in that location has the potential to be a part of a larger destination (authentic fishing/shrimping village).

Even if cruise passengers were going to businesses near the terminal, if you don't have multiple ships leaving and arriving each day, you're not going to have the consistent customers needed to keep a business open. Its like trying to use a football stadium to encourage development: You can do great business on the 10 days per year that there's an event, but that won't keep you in business.

Its sort of like a convention center in that regard.  This is why its important to design structures like these to be mixed-use as opposed to single use, as well as placing them in an environment where they can add to the vibrancy as opposed to being the sole provider of traffic.  

Putting a cruise terminal downtown will not increase cruise traffic, and I believe it does more harm than good for downtown development. That space can be better utilized, and you don't cut off a significant portion of the river right where you'd like to have access. More cruise traffic is certainly better for the city, but I don't think downtown is the place for it.

San Juan's cruise terminal is a good example of accommodating the industry and still maintaining public access on the waterfront.

If a terminal were constructed in DT, the Shipyards would be good location, due to the wharves already in place.  Nevertheless, a bad design will do harm in any location.  A good well thought of design would bring benefit.  However, the largest reason I see for not locating a cruise terminal downtown is that its too far inland and bridge height limitations.  If we're going to do a terminal, I think taking a Norfolk or Tampa approach to design and integration in Mayport makes the most sense.