Republican Study Committee: Cut ALL Amtrak and HSR $

[tufsu1]

exactly Ock....which is similar to why airlines went to a hub and spoke system a few decades ago....while I may want to go from Jax. to Philly, being routed through Atlanta provides infinitely more possibilities for travellers and revenue for the airlines

[Ocklawaha]

Works great for air, but won't work well for surface transportation. Nobody should be forced to go to the Orlando Airport Station to get to Deland, when their train has to pass through Deland to get there.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

I wasn't suggesting that hub and spoke is necessarily good for rail...just that it opened up airline flights to travellers of multiple destinations....just like a long-distance rail line does.

[Ralph W]

Is Amtrak successful? I would find it hard to believe. I wanted to take the train to CA last year, it was going to take two weeks round trip and cost $200 more than an airline ticket. I can't imagine that being a self sustaining type of business. I can't imagine too many people choosing this option over car, bus, or air. I love trains, and take them all the time when I am up in the NW, and even along the coast of CA....but for long distance travel Amtrak is not viable as is.

$200??
My wife and I went to Seattle by air but had checked into going via Amtrak. It would have cost us $2,000 more to go by train.

[blandman]

I agree that air is the obvious JAX to SEATTLE choice.  However, unless you are moving to Seattle, I don't know why you'd choose to sit in a car for three long (1,000 miles/day) days over relaxing/reading/drinking in a train for three (almost four).  If you've got somewhere to be, trains make no sense over (very) long distances.  But, if time is not an issue, even long distances are great.  I'm taking the train from Philly to Orlando to catch three spring training games at the end of March.  Tickets were cheaper than AirTran, though that wasn't the reason we decided to take the train.  Can't wait.

Two weeks to get to California?  By train or ship?  It takes less than four to get to Seattle, by way of D.C. and Chicago.  And a one-way ticket to Seattle on Amtrak is typically less than $300 if you book more than 14-days in advance, but if someone is willing to pay $2,000, let 'em!

[uptowngirl]

Well what is the tax payor subsidizing? I love trains-but the only trains that work for normal non-retired human beings are interstate, in places of heavy traffic volume. Will the tax payor funds be used to correct this? or will it be used to subsidize the existing system? If the existing commuter and cargo system ca't support itself by this time, it does not seem to make sense to throw more good money after bad? I love trains, and I know most here are passionate about them-so convice the non-believers why they should pony up when they have not been able to utilize this service in the past?

[tufsu1]

huh?

Bottom line is all forms of transportation in this country are subsidized.....for example, imagine how bad the airlines and airports would be without the "departure/passenger facility fee".

As for intercity rail as we know it today (i.e., Amtrak)....its short distance northeast corridor trains basically break even or make a small profit....the subsidies are in 2 forms:

1. Long distance trains - in many cases, Amtrak wants to cut service to far out places like Montana....but then the congress people from those places refuse...so the subsidy remains....just check out how much the taxpayer spends to keep small airports in remote parts of Alaska going

2. State corridor service - many states (like PA, CA, and NC) provide Amtrak with additional subsidies to provide additional service...for example, say Amtrak would run 2 trains a day between San Diego and L.A...California provides additional funding so there is a train every 60-90 minutes.

As for commuter rail, it can be handled in several ways....some of it can be done using Amtrak....such as if/when the FEC route is restored with 2 trains a day, Florida has proposed to fund an additional 4 trains a day....so that would be 6 trains each day that could carry commuters in northeast Florida between Palm Coast, St. Augustine,  & Jacksonville.

The other option is for a local (JTA) or regional (like TriRail) entity to provide commuter service....this would include additional stops between St. Augustine and Jax...like Racetrack Road, the Avenues, JTB, and San Marco....in this option, commuter rail stations can be a part fo reshaping the development form/pattern.

If we don't invest more in rail locally, regionally, and nationally it just means more clogged airports/runways and highways....or trillions spent upgrading/widening them or building new ones.

[uptowngirl]

Most your examples are state specific and should be funded by state taxes, which was my whole point. FL should not have to pay for a commuter train between PHL and NYC. Long distance trains should be funded with national funds (when it makes sense) and it should be HSR. People will pay if they can use it, but people with schedules normally can't spend a week or two crossing the country and paying more for it. My argument is not against paying for rail, my argument is we need to apply those funds in a way that makes sense, and to date we have not. We need to start being smart with our money, there is not a lot to go around.

[tufsu1]

uptowngirl....nobody said anything about commuter rail between PHL and NYC being funded by state taxes in Florida....the Amtrak system is funded with Federal tax dollars.....the only exceptions are the enhanced corridor services requested by and paid for by specific states.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

$704.00  estimated 98 Silver Meteor

2011-04-04T17:33:00.000-04:00 Jacksonville, FL
Jacksonville
(JAX)
Departs: 5:33 PM
Mon Apr 04 2011
Jacksonville, FL  (JAX)
Station News Arrives: 7:46 AM
Tue Apr 05 2011
Washington, DC - Union Station  (WAS)
Station News PT93H52M Duration: 14 hr, 13 min Amenities   
Seat 2 Reserved Coach Seats   

29 Capitol Limited
Departs: 4:05 PM
Tue Apr 05 2011
Washington, DC - Union Station  (WAS)
Station News Arrives: 8:45 AM
Wed Apr 06 2011
Chicago, IL - Union Station  (CHI)
Station News Duration: 17 hr, 40 min Amenities     
Seat 2 Reserved Coach Seats  Seat 2 Lower Level Coach Seats   

3 Southwest Chief
Departs: 2:45 PM
Wed Apr 06 2011
Chicago, IL - Union Station  (CHI)
Station News Arrives: 8:15 AM
Fri Apr 08 2011
Los Angeles, CA - Union Station  (LAX)
Station News Duration: 43 hr, 30 min Amenities     

768 Pacific Surfliner
Departs: 9:40 AM
Fri Apr 08 2011
Los Angeles, CA - Union Station  (LAX)
Station News Arrives: 12:25 PM
Fri Apr 08 2011
San Diego, CA  (SAN) San Diego, CA
San Diego
(SAN)
Station News Duration: 2 hr, 45 min Amenities

v/s

$393
Economy
    Continental  /
Multiple Airlines  JAX 
CO JAX 6:00p SAN 10:34p 6:00p   
SAN 
MULT SAN 9:35p JAX 9:12a 9:35p   
SAN   10:34p 
JAX   9:12a 
7h 34m 1 
8h 37m 2 

$420
Economy
    Continental  /
United  JAX 
CO JAX 6:00p SAN 10:34p 6:00p   
SAN 
UA SAN 11:11a JAX 10:58p 11:11a   
SAN   10:34p 
JAX   10:58p 
7h 34m 1 
8h 47m 2 

$428
Economy
    Continental  JAX 
CO JAX 6:00p SAN 10:34p 6:00p   
SAN 
CO SAN 11:11a JAX 10:58p 11:11a   
SAN   10:34p 
JAX   10:58p 
7h 34m 1 
8h 47m 2 

I don't see any advantage - the train is one way, air is roundtrip.

[thelakelander]

People make the mistake in assuming that every city has an airport with commercial flights that fly to anyplace you want to go.  The true advantage of intercity rail is the direct linkage of small and midsized communities that don't have major airports that offer cheaper direct flights between each other (there are a ton of places like this across the country).  

Let's take a trip between Winter Haven, FL (metro pop. around 600,000) and Charleston, SC (metro pop. around 660,000), for example.  Both of these metros are of decent size but only one has an airport with commercial flights.  

On Amtrak, that 9 hour/18 minute trip will cost you $60 each way.  I could fly US Airways to Charleston for $443 roundtrip.  Since there's no direct flight, I'll have to switch to another plane in Charlotte, which makes the total air time 3hr 18 minutes.  Then I'll have to add an hour's drive to Orlando's airport (assuming there's no traffic congestion) plus be there no less than an hour early to ensure I make it through the security check line in time to board the flight.  That hour's drive to the airport will cost me in gas, not to mention the daily fee for leaving my car in the airport's garage or long term parking lot adjacent to the airport.  So to fly, I end up paying probably three times as much to save what amounts to about hour or two in travel time.

Another option would be to make the 436 mile drive (estimated to take 7hr 43 mins) to Charleston.  One trip to the pump will cost most around $50 and roundtrip, you'll fill up at least three or four times.  Plus, once I get to Charleston, due to its urban nature, the car becomes a hassle that will cost me more time/money for finding and paying for parking.

My last option would be to take Greyhound.  I can get an online deal for $95 each way, if I drive 15 miles west to Lakeland.  However the trip on the bus is estimated to take 15hr, 35 min.

[tufsu1]

also...westsider's post is a bit misleading

I just checked Amtrak's website for trips between Jax and DC this Saturday...the Silver Star is $95 one-way and the Silver Meteor is $124

meanwhile a one-way flight on AirTran to Regan National is $326 before fees

[Ocklawaha]

Well what is the tax payor subsidizing? I love trains-but the only trains that work for normal non-retired human beings are interstate, in places of heavy traffic volume. Will the tax payor funds be used to correct this? or will it be used to subsidize the existing system? If the existing commuter and cargo system ca't support itself by this time, it does not seem to make sense to throw more good money after bad? I love trains, and I know most here are passionate about them-so convice the non-believers why they should pony up when they have not been able to utilize this service in the past?

Interstate? Commuter trains? I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. Trains within a state are intra-state, while those crossing state lines are interstate, thus we have an interstate highway system. A highway system that is paid for with my tax dollars. Why should I pay for a road that you might use, but not pay for a train that TUFSU can use?

Also, Westsider, your definition of travel is actually just a trip, and there is a difference. It might be 14 hours on the train to Washington, but consider that I can leave this afternoon, have a leisurely meal in a restaurant with changing views, go to a private room, sleep in a bed, wake up and have breakfast and step off the train in Washington. Meanwhile you beat me, you probably slept at home, rushed to the airport, paid extra for a bag, went through a body search, got on a plane, ate a bag of peanuts along the way, and got off in Washington later in the morning then I did. Of course the choice is yours as long as we keep funding highway, airline, AND railroad travel.

OCKLAWAHA

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

also...westsider's post is a bit misleading

I just checked Amtrak's website for trips between Jax and DC this Saturday...the Silver Star is $95 one-way and the Silver Meteor is $124

meanwhile a one-way flight on AirTran to Regan National is $326 before fees

I was using something similar to Ralph W

[BridgeTroll]

People make the mistake in assuming that every city has an airport with commercial flights that fly to anyplace you want to go.  The true advantage of intercity rail is the direct linkage of small and midsized communities that don't have major airports that offer cheaper direct flights between each other (there are a ton of places like this across the country). 

Let's take a trip between Winter Haven, FL (metro pop. around 600,000) and Charleston, SC (metro pop. around 660,000), for example.  Both of these metros are of decent size but only one has an airport with commercial flights. 

On Amtrak, that 9 hour/18 minute trip will cost you $60 each way.  I could fly US Airways to Charleston for $443 roundtrip.  Since there's no direct flight, I'll have to switch to another plane in Charlotte, which makes the total air time 3hr 18 minutes.  Then I'll have to add an hour's drive to Orlando's airport (assuming there's no traffic congestion) plus be there no less than an hour early to ensure I make it through the security check line in time to board the flight.  That hour's drive to the airport will cost me in gas, not to mention the daily fee for leaving my car in the airport's garage or long term parking lot adjacent to the airport.  So to fly, I end up paying probably three times as much to save what amounts to about hour or two in travel time.

Another option would be to make the 436 mile drive (estimated to take 7hr 43 mins) to Charleston.  One trip to the pump will cost most around $50 and roundtrip, you'll fill up at least three or four times.  Plus, once I get to Charleston, due to its urban nature, the car becomes a hassle that will cost me more time/money for finding and paying for parking.

My last option would be to take Greyhound.  I can get an online deal for $95 each way, if I drive 15 miles west to Lakeland.  However the trip on the bus is estimated to take 15hr, 35 min.

And this SHOULD be part of the discussion.  Faye scoffs when someone tells her the case for these various rail projects has NOT BEEN MADE WELL.  Based on Lakes info alone it is clear AMTRAK does a perfectly crappy job of advertising these sorts of things.  Looks to me like AMTRAK does a poor job of competing with airlines... because it does a poor job of actually trying to compete.