A Tale of Two Beers

[fieldafm]

What is a Beer Off?  Depending on what it is, I might be interested.

Ummm, pretty much an excuse to drink beer at Kickbacks?

Enjoying beer and talking are required.  Yelling and arguing is optional.

[tarheels86]

Oh and just my 2 cents, Dark Lord is not worth $60 a bomber. Goose Island Bourbon County Stout is much better. And cheaper and easier to find.

Dark Lord is hyped because it is rated highly on ratebeer and BeerAdvocate. But I will say as reviewer with 144 imperial stout reviews that Dark Lord is seriously sweet, under-attenuated, and many top raters would consider it pretty crap.

There are way better imperial stouts. I even rated Hoppin Frog BORIS the Crusher higher than DL and that is like $8 and easy to find.  

Just so you know, the beer world is massive, extremely active, and very hardcore. There are brewery "wars", big groups of raters that vehemently oppose certain breweries, and so much more. There are groups that will pool resources and trade for bottles worth over $1000.

One hot topic now is that over hyped, rare beers are given extra bonus points simply because they are rare and hyped. People will say, can you taste the "rare" in the beer as a joke. I would agree. If Dark Lord was available on shelves all over the world, it would not be the #2 or whatever rated imperial stout in the world.

[Captain Zissou]

One of the reasons is because dickheads would just buy an entire bottle shop out of their stock and hoard it for themselves.

I know a certain UNC grad who has done this at Grassroots a number of times when they get Cigar City beers.  Not cool.  Not Cool at all. 

[jcjohnpaint]

Im glad that this discussion is happening actually, its amazing.  And those of us who are beer novices are learning a lot about the subject just by listening to the debate.

I bet this is one of the most informative discussions about beer thats every happened online in jacksonville, in fact---which is why we asked Marc to do the column.  Its creating a real live conversation about handcrafted beer and shows that there is a great difference of opinions and information.

This is just amazing guys, keep it up, and thanks for the enlightening posts!

Man I have been homebrewing for years and although beer is not my field it is a big part of my life...oh man that sounds bad.  But I really feel that beer, craft brew, home brewing, etc is something that can bring people together. 

[jcjohnpaint]

yeah and so many times you search out that one sought after beer for nothing.  Just rare and not worth the toss.  Thanks for the advise, but I sure can wait on this one.  Sometimes the best beers are right in front of us all along. 

[billy]

any idea what the plans are for the old Jax Brewing building?
someone bought it last year?

[urbanlibertarian]

See this thread:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,767.0.html

[Bewler]

I have found that the things beer newbies tend to hate are "dark", hoppy, and sour beers. I will assume by dark that they mean heavy, bitter, and roasty.

Wouldn't that simply mean beers that are dark in color?

From the Guinness website under FAQs:

Q: Is it true that you get a much better pint of GUINNESS® stout in Ireland?
A: GUINNESS® is GUINNESS® - wherever you are. We always use pure, fresh water from natural local sources for the GUINNESS® stout brewed outside Ireland. That said, in blind tests (with a bunch of highly cynical journalists) none of our sample could tell the difference between Irish-brewed GUINNESS® and the locally produced variety. All the GUINNESS® sold in the UK, Ireland and North America is brewed in Ireland at the historic St. James's Gate Brewery in Dublin.

Well... of course Guinness is going to say that. Who would ever admit, "Our beer is better here and worse there"?

That said, could that theory have to do with how much time has passed from the moment it's brewed and bottled to the point of consumption? Like it's simply not as fresh in the time it takes to be shipped from where ever in Canada to many bars in the U.S.? I only wonder because I have a friend who's dad worked for Budweiser and he would tell me about having beer there that was brewed same day. He said it was so much better that it was nothing like the Budweiser in stores or at bars. I can't vouch personally because I've never had this nor do I drink much Bud.

[tarheels86]

I have found that the things beer newbies tend to hate are "dark", hoppy, and sour beers. I will assume by dark that they mean heavy, bitter, and roasty.

Wouldn't that simply mean beers that are dark in color?

So people who tell me they dislike "dark" beer dislike it because of the way it looks? 

From the Guinness website under FAQs:

Q: Is it true that you get a much better pint of GUINNESS® stout in Ireland?
A: GUINNESS® is GUINNESS® - wherever you are. We always use pure, fresh water from natural local sources for the GUINNESS® stout brewed outside Ireland. That said, in blind tests (with a bunch of highly cynical journalists) none of our sample could tell the difference between Irish-brewed GUINNESS® and the locally produced variety. All the GUINNESS® sold in the UK, Ireland and North America is brewed in Ireland at the historic St. James's Gate Brewery in Dublin.

Well... of course Guinness is going to say that. Who would ever admit, "Our beer is better here and worse there"?

That said, could that theory have to do with how much time has passed from the moment it's brewed and bottled to the point of consumption? Like it's simply not as fresh in the time it takes to be shipped from where ever in Canada to many bars in the U.S.? I only wonder because I have a friend who's dad worked for Budweiser and he would tell me about having beer there that was brewed same day. He said it was so much better that it was nothing like the Budweiser in stores or at bars. I can't vouch personally because I've never had this nor do I drink much Bud.

The point is not that our beer is better here and worse there. There is nothing they have to admit to. THEY ARE THE SAME!!! I MEAN HOLY GOD PEOPLE!!! If you can find a contractor brewer for Guinness Draught in North America then I will shut up.

Guinness (I think now part of Diego- a big alcohol conglomerate), who files taxes in probably 50-100 countries, you are assuming has secret contract breweries around Canada that they are not disclosing? WHAT!!??

They truth is that that person had Guinness that had zero travel miles on it, was never heated and bounced around in a supertanker, and had it IN IRELAND, which would add to the overall psychological experience.

These are how rumors get started. Gonzo or whoever has an idea in their head that, "Hey, this is so much better. Probably because the US version is not brewed the same way and is made somewhere else like Canada."

Yes, it will be fresher; but that has almost nothing to do with pasteurized beer. They are pasteurized so that they can ALWAYS TASTE FRESH. There is no way for super heated beer to spoil because all living matter inside the keg and bottles is now dead.

If someone pours you three pints of Budweiser: One is "fresh" Budweiser overnighted from St. Louis, the other is two years old from Jacksonville, FL (we have a Budweiser contract brewer here), and the third is a double up of either the former or latter, you will not be able to pick out which one is which. No way. They employ expert tasters (super-tasters) to MAKE SURE THEY ALWAYS TASTE THE SAME no matter where they are brewed.  Macro lagers like Budweiser are pasteurized and laden with preservatives so that they will not change over time. The only thing that could possible mess up a bottle of chemical laden pale lager is massive exposure to UV light and multiple big fluctuations in storing temperature. The two things above happen all the time because bars, stores, distributors do not understand the mechanics of beer. These are the doings of third parties and not the producer.

So YES, Guinness, Budweiser, __fill in easy to find beer___ can possibly taste different from place A to place B because of storing and how they are handled, but they are not different recipes. That is flawed logic.

There is one more explanation that really doesn't apply to macro crap beer. The minute a true beer is bottled, it is NOT ready for consumption. Real beer that is refermented in the bottle has a period called bottle conditioning where the beer undergoes a miniature tertiary fermentation that continues to clarify the beer, eat up the last remaining off flavors, and produce true carbonation (Budweiser et al are forced carbonated like soda). If the beer is not pasteurized, it is possible that fresh bottles taste great, but older bottles develop off character.

I will give you a great example: Bold City. Bold City is a fun place to go drink and eat and have fun. But their beer is not good. Why? Because the day or week it is brewed, it tastes pretty good. But when they bottle their beer, no one has bothered to see how that beer ages. The fact is that Bold City has major league sanitation issues so that almost every bottled beer from them after 2 months of age (I have some here with a year of age on them to show people as an example) is totally infected by wild organisms. So they are completely disgusting. Why does no one know this? Because most people who drink beer cannot identify brewing flaws. And even then, you would need to compare fresh Duke's Brown to bottled Duke's Brown to really find that off-character. If you have only tried an infected bottle, then you would assume that is what it is supposed to taste like; decide you don't like it; and then never buy it again. They don't post this on internet boards because they see no reason to. So no one in the beer community knows that Bold City bottled beers are almost always infected after a few months. I even have a bottle of Abby's Ale that is so wildy sour from a lactic infection that is actually good!

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

While we're on the subject, I highly implore you to email the pastry chef at Orsay to make his 'Car Bomb' trio of ice creams:  a Guiness, a Jameson's and a Bailey's flavored ice cream.  Eat the Guiness version while you wait for them to pour one (I think they only have Rasputin at the moment) when the stout arrives, drop your other two scoops in for a float.  I can only implore you to not knock it until you've tried it (over and over and over) they're absolutely fantastic. 

And yes, I was a few pints under before I decided to mix the ice cream with the Guiness, and totally glad that I did.

[Bewler]

Whew, sounds like someone could use a beer.

I’m “assuming Guinness has secret contract breweries around Canada that they are not disclosing?”
When did I ever say that? What are you even talking about?

Also, I was proposing a thought. Not stating a fact.

Third, Bold City beer is not good huh? Hmmmm, I always thought personal taste was subjective.

[Gonzo]

A friend forwarded this link to me yesterday. The story seems to claim that Guinness is not only brewed outside of Ireland, it also talks about an intrepid group of researchers who documented the fact that the beloved stout DOES taste different outside of Ireland.  

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/03/16/6283655-how-to-build-a-better-irish-beer

Furthermore, they published their findings in the March 2011 issue of The Journal of Food Science. Here is the article abstract:

This study aimed to test the much-pronounced but poorly supported theory that “Guinness does not travel well.” A total of 4 researchers from 4 different countries of origin traveled around the world for 12 mo to collect data on the enjoyment of Guinness and related factors. The main outcome was measured on a Visual Analogue Scale (VAS) from 0 (enjoyed it not at all) to 100 (enjoyed it very much). A total of 103 tastings were recorded (42 in Ireland, 61 elsewhere) in 71 different pubs spread over 33 cities and 14 countries. The enjoyment of Guinness consumed in Ireland was rated higher (74 mm VAS) than outside Ireland (57 mm; P < 0.001). This difference remained statistically significant after adjusting for researcher, pub ambience, Guinness appearance, and the sensory measures mouthfeel, flavor, and aftertaste. This study is the first to provide scientific evidence that Guinness does not travel well and that the enjoyment of Guinness (for our group of nonexpert tasters) was higher when in Ireland. Results, however, are subject to further verification because of limitations in the study design.

Gonzo

[Bativac]

I will give you a great example: Bold City. Bold City is a fun place to go drink and eat and have fun. But their beer is not good. Why? Because the day or week it is brewed, it tastes pretty good. But when they bottle their beer, no one has bothered to see how that beer ages. The fact is that Bold City has major league sanitation issues so that almost every bottled beer from them after 2 months of age (I have some here with a year of age on them to show people as an example) is totally infected by wild organisms. So they are completely disgusting. Why does no one know this? Because most people who drink beer cannot identify brewing flaws. And even then, you would need to compare fresh Duke's Brown to bottled Duke's Brown to really find that off-character. If you have only tried an infected bottle, then you would assume that is what it is supposed to taste like; decide you don't like it; and then never buy it again. They don't post this on internet boards because they see no reason to. So no one in the beer community knows that Bold City bottled beers are almost always infected after a few months.

Resurrecting an old thread to ask a question. I've recently gotten into beer drinking and find that I really enjoy Bold City's Duke's Brown. So I searched the forum and found the above post. Am I drinking terrible, unclean beer under the assumption that it tastes pretty good? Is it dangerously "infected by wild organisms" to the point that I shouldn't be drinking it? Is my palate that ill-informed??

Also I enjoy some Hefeweizens - really, I like beers with a strong flavor but little or no bitterness. If that makes me a "beer wuss" then so be it. Can't stand the Budweisers etc. Any other recommendations would be fantastic.

[Tacachale]

^No. That's really only going to be an issue with their bottled beer, particularly if it's been sitting around a while. If you drink it on tap and fresh there should be no problem.

The key is if you find you like something, drink up, and experiment to find more things you like. That's what makes it fun. If you like things with some flavor that aren't too bitter, you might try Intuition's King Street Stout. It's pretty awesome.

[fieldafm]

Resurrecting an old thread to ask a question. I've recently gotten into beer drinking and find that I really enjoy Bold City's Duke's Brown. So I searched the forum and found the above post. Am I drinking terrible, unclean beer under the assumption that it tastes pretty good? Is it dangerously "infected by wild organisms" to the point that I shouldn't be drinking it? Is my palate that ill-informed??

First off, Bold City does not have 'major league sanitation issues'.  I come from a family of brewers (Budweiser) and several ex-employees of AB's plant in Jacksonville work at BC.  I have seen Bold City's operation inside and out and I can tell you, this is just a completely innacurate statement.  Believe me, my uncle (who once told the guy at Shipyards brewing while on a tour that his beer tasted like piss and pointed out 8 things in the brewery that were wrong- a quite enjoyable day mind you) would not drink there if this were the case. 

Secondly, beer is a food product... it does not age well when bottled.  That's true for any beer.  If I had a bottle of Heinekin that sat in my kitchen for six months and I drank it... it would taste skunky.  That's no different then eating a box of Cheerios that has been sitting in my kitchen for four months.