Courthouse Asphalt or Green Space: The Choice Is Yours?

[TheProfessor]

Does this mean that closing Monroe is a no go or that further study is going to happen??

[Noone]

Monroe St. should remain open. I was in the area driving around in the morning and the traffic was just backed up. I'm not there often but I'm thinking what a mess. And the Courthouse is empty right now. Also someone pointed out you go off I 95 and a two lane exit into a one lane dead end. That doesn't sound good.

Now MJ posters. Just throwing this out there. But remember the discussion about the park across from the library. Park or housing? Is everyone happy with the park? Sure there is housing available Downtown so why add to the inventory. Would housing across from the Courthouse be better than a park? Maybe not right now, but how would an urban planner look at this especially when we also have a taxpayer subsidized parking garage right in the middle. Just curious.

[thelakelander]

Noone, here are a few reasons why I believe Monroe Street should remain closed.  


Money for the park is already budgeted.  Money for a new road would require taking funds from another potential project.

1. There's no money budgeted to build it.  It would probably cost over a million.  If you had a million to spend improving downtown, would investing in a new street in front of the courthouse make it to the top of that list?  Personally, if we can free up money like that, I'd rather throw it into a project like opening the pier to the public on Bay Street or better integrating businesses with the sidewalks to stimulate life and foot traffic.

2. Forsyth Street connects you to everything Monroe does, if traveling from northbound I-95, including the Hart Bridge Expressway.  Whoever stated that Monroe Street was the only street doing this, flat out lied.  Because of Forsyth Street, I-95 access is a non-issue.

3. The JEDC has plans to convert most of downtown's one-way streets back to two-way.  Converting those one-way streets back to two-way will create better access than a new one-way street would do.


An aerial and shots of Nashville's Courthouse Square.  Take not of the surrounding street grid.  Automobile access is great, due to the two-way street network.


4. Pedestrian Safety.  The courthouse garage is south of Adams Street and it's main entrance is on Clay Street.  To access the courthouse, pedestrians will have to cross six lanes of roadway.  However, traffic will travel in reverse which will be pretty dangerous for walking....the exact opposite of what we should want in a downtown core.


The courthouse garage entrance is on Clay Street. Imagine the risk for a pedestrian crossing at Clay & Adams/Monroe with the reverse travel pattern created by moving Monroe within a concrete median's distance of Adams.  Also, take your finger, place it at Monroe and Broad and attempt to travel to Clay Street to access the garage.  Congestion is created by stop and go traffic.  Stopping and going at every block is exactly what someone would have to do by car with a new Monroe Street.

5. Unnecessary auto travel.  The courthouse garage's main entrance is on Clay Street.  A new Monroe Street won't have access to Clay, due to the weird unnecessary loop it will make.  This means to access the garage via Monroe, you have to pass the courthouse, make a right on Pearl, make a right on Adams, immediately merge and swith lanes and make a left on Clay.  Two-waying streets eliminates this congestion making vehicle travel pattern and using Forsyth to access the garage only means making on left turn from Forsyth to Clay.


Downtown Mobile's Cathedral Square's interaction with Dauphin Street is what a well designed public space can do for Adams Street and the retail at the base of the courthouse garage.  Rebuilding Monroe gives you another Main & Ocean or Broad & Jefferson feel to the area.


In this image, you can see some of the street level retail space at Clay & Adams, just south of the courthouse main entrance.  Rebuilding Monroe would mean crossing six lanes of asphalt.  Are we designing a core for pedestrians or cars?

6. Regarding park space, the Main Street Park and a Courthouse Plaza are an apples and oranges comparison.  The Main Street Park is an isolated green space surrounded by surface parking, Salvation Army and a heavy traveled one way highway.  The Courthouse Plaza would better integrate the courthouse with the courthouse garage's retail spaces facing Adams Street.  By not rebuilding Monroe for vehicles (imo, it should be rebuilt as a multiuse path for pedestrians and cyclists in the park) and two-waying Adams, we have an opportunity to better integrate retail and restaurants serving courthouse visitors with the front door of the courthouse.




From an urban planning standpoint, its not even a debate.  A public space that costs you hundreds of thousands less, promotes walkability, integrates retail and better fits the courthouse monster into the surrounding area is a clearly superior option.

You gave me the opportunity to explore the St. Johns River, McCoys and Hogans Creeks to highlight their potential.  If interested, I'd like to do the same with the courthouse.  Let's meet up at the courthouse garage one of these days and let me walk you through my viewpoint.

[dougskiles]

Monroe St. should remain open. I was in the area driving around in the morning and the traffic was just backed up. I'm not there often but I'm thinking what a mess. And the Courthouse is empty right now. Also someone pointed out you go off I 95 and a two lane exit into a one lane dead end. That doesn't sound good.

This will sound completely strange to some - but my opinion is that gridlock downtown for cars will actually help to promote the use of transit, which in turn will promote more walking, which will lead to a more vibrant core.  We have spent decades trying to make downtown more friendly for the cars and I believe it is time to reverse that trend.  I have never been to a thriving urban area that was easy to get around using a car.  In fact, I would bet there is an inverse relationship.  The cities with the best urban core probably have the least driver friendly layout.

You gave me the opportunity to explore the St. Johns River, McCoys and Hogans Creeks to highlight their potential.  If interested, I'd like to do the same with the courthouse.  Let's meet up at the courthouse garage one of these days and let me walk you through my viewpoint.

That is a GREAT idea.  And hopefully some of the TU writers and news media would be willing to join you.  I believe that when people stand on Adams Street and look at the front of the courthouse they will fully understand what JEDC wants to do.  Hopefully they will.  And particularly if they are willing to get out of their cars for a moment.

[jcjohnpaint]

Monroe St. should remain open. I was in the area driving around in the morning and the traffic was just backed up. I'm not there often but I'm thinking what a mess. And the Courthouse is empty right now. Also someone pointed out you go off I 95 and a two lane exit into a one lane dead end. That doesn't sound good.

This will sound completely strange to some - but my opinion is that gridlock downtown for cars will actually help to promote the use of transit, which in turn will promote more walking, which will lead to a more vibrant core.  We have spent decades trying to make downtown more friendly for the cars and I believe it is time to reverse that trend.  I have never been to a thriving urban area that was easy to get around using a car.  In fact, I would bet there is an inverse relationship.  The cities with the best urban core probably have the least driver friendly layout.

You gave me the opportunity to explore the St. Johns River, McCoys and Hogans Creeks to highlight their potential.  If interested, I'd like to do the same with the courthouse.  Let's meet up at the courthouse garage one of these days and let me walk you through my viewpoint.

That is a GREAT idea.  And hopefully some of the TU writers and news media would be willing to join you.  I believe that when people stand on Adams Street and look at the front of the courthouse they will fully understand what JEDC wants to do.  Hopefully they will.  And particularly if they are willing to get out of their cars for a moment.

Totally Agree.  I mean I hate driving around in the SJTC.  I usually get pissed off and park my car and walk where I need to go.  Probably planned this way. 

[fsujax]

The grid of Downtown was destroyed when they decided to plop the courthouse down right in the middle of it. Close the dang street. Did anyone speak in favor of closing Monroe St? Maybe MJ could get some of these ideas to Bishop and others?

[tufsu1]

Does this mean that closing Monroe is a no go or that further study is going to happen??

It means that Council has told the administration if they want to do it, come back to Council with the proposal not attached to something else.

I think they are best served by waiting on the traffic study...it should be done in a month or two

[Lunican]

So they didn't do a traffic study before putting a building on Monroe Street?

[Dog Walker]

A traffic study automatically puts the easy movement of cars over any and all other values that exist in an area.

No traffic study is going to be valid, even about the auto traffic anyway, unless it is done AFTER most of the downtown streets are converted back to two-way.

A traffic study will do nothing except support keeping Monroe open by it's very nature.

[thelakelander]

You gave me the opportunity to explore the St. Johns River, McCoys and Hogans Creeks to highlight their potential.  If interested, I'd like to do the same with the courthouse.  Let's meet up at the courthouse garage one of these days and let me walk you through my viewpoint.

That is a GREAT idea.  And hopefully some of the TU writers and news media would be willing to join you.  I believe that when people stand on Adams Street and look at the front of the courthouse they will fully understand what JEDC wants to do.  Hopefully they will.  And particularly if they are willing to get out of their cars for a moment.

I park daily in the garage on the corner of Adams & Julia Street.  Going up to the top level of that garage or the courthouse garage would also drive home the point.  It's one thing to look at these things on paper but you get a completely different feel on foot at street level and five stories up.

[Lunican]

Monroe (and all the streets for that matter) should have remained open in the original design. Now that there is a big fat building over the right of way, twisting Monroe around it is just adding to our downtown Frankenstein.

[fsujax]

Your are right Stephen, this is mind blowing to me. I dont understnad why Bishop would support this. he is an architect/planner for crying out loud. I would suggest we all begin an email campaign to the Council members.

[tufsu1]

A traffic study automatically puts the easy movement of cars over any and all other values that exist in an area.

not necessarily...I've worked on several that have put other forms of mobility at the top...this one is a study to explore the possibility of returning the one-way streets back to two-way

[Kay]

 Let's meet up at the courthouse garage one of these days and let me walk you through my viewpoint.

Ennis:  Why not make this offer to council members including Corrigan?

[Bativac]

If accessibility is such an issue, why don't they just convert Adams back to a 2 way street? Then you can just use it instead of Monroe. Or is that an insane proposition?

My prediction: Monroe St will be reopened and the entire plaza will be paved over. The city will perhaps allow someone to sell hot dogs or newspapers (but not both). That person will not be allowed to advertise.

At least if Monroe St is rebuilt, it'll make it easier for everyone who works at the Courthouse to drive to a strip mall on the Southside for lunch, am I right?