Courthouse Asphalt or Green Space: The Choice Is Yours?

[dougskiles]

Here's an idea, we can just rename Adams Street to Monroe Street and call it even.  Just like they do with US highway routes through urban areas...

Jacksonville has never had a good institutional memory.

So true.  And it is becoming even more difficult every time we tear down another old building.  Although I can't say that I'm going to be standing in front of the current courthouse and annex trying to save those buildings.  I'm ready for them to go.

[Captain Zissou]

OK, so yesterday I got inspired by what we could do at the courthouse by my experience out at THE TOWN CENTER.   I know!!! I got some ideas for one of our most important public spaces from one of the least pedestrian friendly shopping centers in the state.

In the area in front of Maggiano's, there is a small public space with a fountain, a 200 square foot Auntie Annie's pretzel stand, and starbucks & California Pizza Kitchen with outdoor seating on the perimeter of the space.  This area was filled with people looking at the fountain, eating pretzels, and drinking coffee.  How easy would it be to recreate this environment for the courthouse??

I'm not saying we need Koi fish and turtle shaped fountains, but a couple thousand feet of hardscape with fountains and public art that would border a great lawn in the center??  Then let starbucks or somebody lease the land for free if they put a small stand with patio seating on the plaza.....How simple would that be??? I bet we could to that for less than a million and it would do more for the area than the entire courthouse structure.

[fieldafm]

There is a major Green Space in the town core.  Its Hogan Creek.  Not another single building needs to come down, and the ideas that drove this phenomenon in our city have been nothing short of madness.

There are actually two, and frankly it is to our lasting shame that none of the local designers seem to be smart enough to come up with a creative way to utilize it as a public green space, and that is the freaking st john's river.  Its massive.

What?  No One knows how to make an aqua park anymore?  In Florida?  In the South?  On one of the Great Rivers of North America?

For shame.

It is time to start implementing the opposite disaster policies of the past 50 years, and that is to build and infill and create density in the town core that has been almost utterly destroyed by these uninformed, aesthetic polices.

You mean the once majestic, now dilapidated green belt that connects three important urban neighborhoods to the St Johns River... that every major report downtown talks about, but everyone really just plays lip service to?

http://www.coj.net/NR/rdonlyres/ecrjw3vhbrdgd7mocgmrhsauxeyrhjo6bxxn67gaexqakel63cycqknvpc5yqz7lnz2gt27uynnmb2rq4xo2scj4qdc/Open+Space+and+Pedestrian+Plan.pdf

The river is Jacksonville's unique international
asset

One of the main goals of the open space and pedestrian
plan is to recognize the important role the river
plays in attracting people to downtown and to
preserve and enhance public accessibility to the river
and its recreational opportunities.Currently the impact of the river is felt mainly by
adjacent properties. To maximize the influence of the
river throughout the city, connections to the St. Johns
River must be forged. These connections will be
created through the implementation of the other parts
of the open space and pedestrian plan.

The emerald necklace links the river to other
parts of downtown
The second component of the open space and
pedestrian plan is the creation of an emerald necklace a ring of parks and open space connecting the
downtown neighborhoods to the river. The emerald
necklace will function as the seam binding individual
neighborhoods together.
To emphasize the connection to the river, Hogan's
Creek will form the first part of the necklace and
McCoy's creek the second.

Parks are legacy projects adding value to
surrounding land parcels
Our vision for Downtown Jacksonville includes the
creation of parks in the center of downtown, our
legacy to future residents.
The parks will provide the links to the river as well as
raise property values in adjacent neighborhoods. Parks
will serve as catalysts for the redevelopment of
adjacent blocks with a mixture of residential and
neighborhood serving uses. The economic impact of
the parks will be felt not only by adjacent properties,
but by the entire downtown.

Pedestrian connections link centers of
downtown activityThe open space and pedestrian plan identifies a series
of pedestrian links. These links are intended to
maximize the potential of the overall park system by
providing connections between small pocket parks, the
emerald necklace and the river.
The importance of the pedestrian system identified by
the continuous red line on the open space plan can
not be over stated. The creation of the emerald
necklace is a long-term project. The pedestrian system
offers both short and long-term solutions in the
creation of the overall open space systems.
Main
pedestrian links include:
· Riverfront
· Hogan's Creek
· McCoy's Creek
· Main/Ocean Street Corridor

Views encourage people to linger downtown
Physical connections are not the only way to link the
river to downtown neighborhoods. One of the most
important methods we can employ to bring the river
into surrounding neighborhoods and entice people to
come down to the river's edge is to establish view
corridors.
The yellow arrows on the plan indicate views of the
river to either be created, preserved, and enhanced.
These views of the river do not start at water's edge,
but are located at the inland culmination of corridors,
such as streets or parks that terminate at the river.

Sustainable stormwater management
encourages dual-use of facilities
The open space plan proposes a network of storm
water ponds that complement the landscape and
function as visual amenities ponds will be designed
with shallow slopes and landscaped edges to take on
the appearance of small lakes.
Possible locations for storm water ponds include:
· Open space network/emerald necklace· Under interstate overpasses
· A network of ponds along the edge of
Interstate 95

Or maybe you're referring to some other magnificent natural asset the city has ignored for decades?!?!

My favorite quote of the month "We've had this river that's been profitable for the city for 100's of years, and all we do is pollute it."

[Ocklawaha]

Idea? Why not rebuild Monroe from the FREEway to Hemming Plaza so it can double as a ADRL Drag Racing Strip on the weekends... We could let the crowds sit on the steps, sell concessions from the empty retail spaces, and give extra points for mowing down an "undesirables."

REALLY? A hundred million a mile for the Skyway? Not in your wildest dreams did it cost that much, subtract the maintenance facility and the Acosta Bridge from that and you'll arrive at a much more realistic price. I don't even think JTA could screw up so bad as to pay that much for a monorail.

OCKLAWAHA

[fieldafm]

ADRL Drag Racing Strip on the weekends

B/c they average about 40k patrons on a Saturday that get in for free and spend a grip of money at concession stands and product vendors... we don't want that many people downtown spending money in retail stores and restaurants on a weekend.

[thelakelander]

OK, so yesterday I got inspired by what we could do at the courthouse by my experience out at THE TOWN CENTER.  I know!!! I got some ideas for one of our most important public spaces from one of the least pedestrian friendly shopping centers in the state.

In the area in front of Maggiano's, there is a small public space with a fountain, a 200 square foot Auntie Annie's pretzel stand, and starbucks & California Pizza Kitchen with outdoor seating on the perimeter of the space.  This area was filled with people looking at the fountain, eating pretzels, and drinking coffee.  How easy would it be to recreate this environment for the courthouse??

I'm not saying we need Koi fish and turtle shaped fountains, but a couple thousand feet of hardscape with fountains and public art that would border a great lawn in the center??  Then let starbucks or somebody lease the land for free if they put a small stand with patio seating on the plaza.....How simple would that be??? I bet we could to that for less than a million and it would do more for the area than the entire courthouse structure.

That's not a suburban concept.  Its urban and one that most communities have implemented with their downtown greenspaces.  If a public plaza is built in front of the new courthouse, the same concepts should be implemented.  The link below offers 10 suggestions for creating a space like this.  None of the points suggest adding more asphalt.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-dec-ten-principles-for-creating-successful-squares

[Captain Zissou]

I know the plaza is an urban concept.  My point was that a suburban, car-centric, mall even realizes that to create a gathering space within their development, they have to have an active use centered park with attractions and amenities surrounding it.

[CS Foltz]

+1

[stjr]

By the way, the Skyway Express cost $100,000,000 per mile back then. Not really a good investment for the ridership they have.  The Skyway is the biggest urban mistake made in Jacksonville.  Most of the businesses  that are along it (Hogan Street and Bay Street have been shut down.

We had a great opportunity to have a wonderful street (Hogan) all the way from Union Street to the river.  Now we have an elevated concrete monstrosity. We now have Laura Street, but you cannot see to the river because guess what: they closed the street for the Jacksonville Landing. How much money has the City of Jacksonville pumped into that project for the last decades.

Well, Ted, I gave you heck a while back on some other issue but we are solidly together on this one.  You need to realize that on MJ we are actually outnumbered by several times (at least based on the active posters).  I think we can take comfort our views are more representative of the greater community. 

By the way, if you care to tread into deeper waters on this subject, go to the Rick Mullaney thread ( http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,11000.0.html ) for the latest round robin discussion about the Skyway.

[stjr]

Stephen, don't age me any faster than necessary.  Ted is a generation ahead of me I am sure.  As to who we might represent, I would say it's more accurate to say we are, in my experience, more representative of those who have lived through the entire Skyway experience.  For some reason, you seem to assume your opinion is the only one that matters on this subject.  From when do you derive such authority?  Self ordination doesn't count.  

[thelakelander]

Since Stjr has stirred the pot, I might as well post this here as well.

I noted this quote from Jax architect Ted Pappas on the Courthouse Asphalt or Green Space thread (post #113, http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,10900.105.html ) and am adding it here for your viewing pleasure:

By the way, the Skyway Express cost $100,000,000 per mile back then. Not really a good investment for the ridership they have.  The Skyway is the biggest urban mistake made in Jacksonville.  Most of the businesses  that are along it (Hogan Street and Bay Street have been shut down.

We had a great opportunity to have a wonderful street (Hogan) all the way from Union Street to the river.  Now we have an elevated concrete monstrosity. We now have Laura Street, but you cannot see to the river because guess what: they closed the street for the Jacksonville Landing. How much money has the City of Jacksonville pumped into that project for the last decades.

I noticed this when it was written but I let it slide since I had already hit him over the head enough about the plan to put another road between the courthouse and courthouse parking garage, along with wanting to destroy more blocks of DT for greenspace.

1. The skyway's overall capital cost was $184 million for 2.5 miles.  That breaks down to $73.6 million of which the feds (not Jax) paid as a demonstration project.

2. Within that number, we paid for two systems.  First a peoplemover and then the what you see today.

3. We made the necessary expensive investments for an extensive system first (river crossing, O&M center) and then quit.  The result is similar to building the Dames Point Bridge but stopping 9A at Fort Caroline and New Berlin Road and then wondering why the beltway is not effective.

4. The stores (Sears, JCPenney, Levy-Wolf, Furchgott's, Rosenblum's, May-Cohens) on along the Hogan Street corridor closed between 1981 and 1986.  The skyway along Hogan opened in 2000.

You don't have to like the system and that's understandable.  However, if you're going to toss something out on a public discussion board for all to see for as long as we keep paying the server bills, make sure to verify your sources.

[thelakelander]

Mayor wants to turn downtown Jacksonville’s Monroe Street into public plaza
But some say closing the courthouse street would create gridlock.

Jacksonville Mayor John Peyton is moving ahead with plans to close Monroe Street in front of the new courthouse, even though most of city government seemed to think for years that the street would remain open.

Instead, if the City Council approves, Monroe will be turned into a public plaza decorated with up to $629,000 worth of public art that may include such functional items as benches and lighting.

Full Article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-02-07/story/mayor-wants-turn-downtown-jacksonville%E2%80%99s-monroe-street-public-plaza#ixzz1DGsJqxfm

[thelakelander]

This debate is so silly to me.  A fight over making DT more autocentric or pedestrian friendly? Gridlock in DT Jax, even though the entrance to the courthouse parking garage is off Forsyth Street (almost two blocks to the south).  Besides, the way Pappas' half moon shaped Monroe Street realignment is drawn, it won't even connect to Clay Street (the main entrance of the courthouse parking garage).  Btw, I would like Timothy Gibbons or Michael Corrigan to provide an estimate for the cost to reconstruct that unbudgeted stretch of Monroe Street.  It's only fair to see the cost comparison between the two options.

[dougskiles]

Good for Peyton and JEDC.  I wish the article had shown a sketch of what Corrigan is proposing and then people could see exactly how many lanes of traffic will have to be crossed by pedestrians.  How about those wonderful comments following the article.  This tells me just how far we have to go in getting the residents in Jacksonville to start thinking beyond the almighty car.

And speaking of cars, I saw one commercial last night with a car coming out of a temple (or something like that) and the people started worshipping it.  The car really is the ultimate god of American culture.  The NFL isn't far behind.

[jcjohnpaint]

Good for the Mayor.  Finally coming around.  As for the council..... 
They just don't seem to get it.  You can see how one of their bad decisions such as an exit leads to all these other bad decisions.  They need to start thinking ahead and not one move at a time.