Florida High Speed Rail - The Progressive Way

[JeffreyS]

I am wondering if the Tea-Party were educated a bit about All the costs of Roads V Rail if we might be able to find some support there.

[Ocklawaha]

Same old downtown train stations. One has to ask how did the TGV get downtown?

OCKLAWAHA

[BridgeTroll]

I support HSR and rail in general.  But it has to make sense and the folks who are being asked to pay for it must be convinced it is a good idea.  IMHO... HSR and commuter rail proponents (like myself) have done a poor job of convincing Ma and Pa taxpayer that this is a good use of their funds and support.

Railling(sorry) against those who oppose it with name calling etc serves no purpose.

[JeffreyS]

I could not agree more BT that is what I was trying to say with Respect to the Tea-Party.

[BridgeTroll]

This is my biggest problem with todays version of politicians.  Rather than convince and cajole an opponent to see or at least support a particular view they now simply vilify them and preach to the choir.  The choirs sure do like it... but nothing really gets done.

[yapp1850]

why is eveybody against the tampa high speed location harts main bus tranfers station across the street. tampa union station will not have a stop till 2012 when the  n-s brt comes online. i do not care rest of high speen  line they need to tranfer  occc to  downdown orlando,  kathleen station is better than  usf station because  public transit connection to downtown lakeland .

[tufsu1]

there is nothing wrong with Tampa's proposed location...it is actually closer to the CBD than the Amtrak station....and facilitates extending rail along I-275 out to Westshore area.

[Ocklawaha]

there is nothing wrong with Tampa's proposed location...it is actually closer to the CBD than the Amtrak station....and facilitates extending rail along I-275 out to Westshore area.

Great TU, we understand that you had a hand in it's planning at some point but the plan still reeks to high heavens. Man why would you want a train that only connects with buses at a freaking garage? Imagine if it pulled in next to Amtrak and TBARTA commuter rail... Oop's that's over a UNION STATION.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Definition of politics.................shoveling shit for the masses! Some of the masses know better.......rail is good for a variety of purposes...construction, operation, maintenance plus the infill...............one dollar invested, six dollar return, but what do I know?

[tufsu1]

Great TU, we understand that you had a hand in it's planning at some point but the plan still reeks to high heavens. Man why would you want a train that only connects with buses at a freaking garage? Imagine if it pulled in next to Amtrak and TBARTA commuter rail... Oop's that's over a UNION STATION.

well Ock...right now there is no plan for anything but buses in Tampa....the proposed rail system would have connected with the HSR station....as would the airport-downtown route (still on the table).

As for Amtrak, it currently runs 1 train a day...not exactly something that should be the lynchpin in the design....especially when the other site has the local bus terminal right next door.

All that said, there were 3 main reasons the current site was chosen:

1. The curve needed to take HSR from the I-4 ROW to Union Station meant lots of impacts
2. There was no easy eay to ever extend HSR from Union Station to the Tampa airport or Pinellas County
3. The land was given to FDOT for free  

Now, yes, I agree that running intercity rail along the CSX tracks would have been far cheaper and perhaps more ideal...but the decision was made that speed was paramount.,..and CSX doesn't seem too interested in sharing those tracks anyway.

[ChriswUfGator]

Great TU, we understand that you had a hand in it's planning at some point but the plan still reeks to high heavens. Man why would you want a train that only connects with buses at a freaking garage? Imagine if it pulled in next to Amtrak and TBARTA commuter rail... Oop's that's over a UNION STATION.

well Ock...right now there is no plan for anything but buses in Tampa....the proposed rail system would have connected with the HSR station....as would the airport-downtown route (still on the table).

As for Amtrak, it currently runs 1 train a day...not exactly something that should be the lynchpin in the design....especially when the other site has the local bus terminal right next door.

All that said, there were 3 main reasons the current site was chosen:

1. The curve needed to take HSR from the I-4 ROW to Union Station meant lots of impacts
2. There was no easy eay to ever extend HSR from Union Station to the Tampa airport or Pinellas County
3. The land was given to FDOT for free   

Now, yes, I agree that running intercity rail along the CSX tracks would have been far cheaper and perhaps more ideal...but the decision was made that speed was paramount.,..and CSX doesn't seem too interested in sharing those tracks anyway.

Yes, well, when a main deciding factor in a rail plan becomes not whether it actually works but "we got the land for free" then you really have to sit back and reevaluate that dumbassery, no? If planners are considering such irrelevant factors, it doesn't speak well for the project. IMO, most rail projects would be better served reoccupying the original lines that were built for that purpose, and with almost no exceptions, are still around. Pay the money and have functional rail where it's supposed to be, instead of some other random place because the land was free. Geez...

[tufsu1]

Chris...my response to Ock was regarding the Tampa station location, not the route itself....so my response to you is this...

Generically, the original lines you speak of are usually owned and controlled by a freight rail company...so you'd first have to get a shared-use agreement with them.

Furthermore, in this case, the CSX route from Orlando to Tampa has lots of curves and at-grade crossings...it makes true high speed rail virtually impossible....on the flip side, I-4 is pretty much a straight shot with no at-grade crossings...which makes it ideal for high speed rail.

Many people look at Europe's passenger rail system with envy (as they should)...but what is not said is that their freight rail system is nothing close to ours.

[Ocklawaha]

well Ock...right now there is no plan for anything but buses in Tampa....the proposed rail system would have connected with the HSR station....as would the airport-downtown route (still on the table).

As for Amtrak, it currently runs 1 train a day...not exactly something that should be the lynchpin in the design....especially when the other site has the local bus terminal right next door.

All that said, there were 3 main reasons the current site was chosen:

1. The curve needed to take HSR from the I-4 ROW to Union Station meant lots of impacts
2. There was no easy eay to ever extend HSR from Union Station to the Tampa airport or Pinellas County
3. The land was given to FDOT for free  

Now, yes, I agree that running intercity rail along the CSX tracks would have been far cheaper and perhaps more ideal...but the decision was made that speed was paramount.,..and CSX doesn't seem too interested in sharing those tracks anyway.

The station location would be fixed with a bigger adjustment to bring the HSR line back to/or close to the alignment of CSX making Plant City, Lakeland, Auburndale, Haines City, Kissimmee, Orlando DOWNTOWN, Winter Park, Sanford...  Not that you would run HSR to EVERY one of those stations, but you COULD abandon passenger service on the CSX route and use a multi track HSR line for TRUE HSR as well as GREATLY enhanced local services. I agree the CSX line twists and turns around the lakes, and in some cases those lakes offer a way to straighten out the curve radii, otherwise you take it up and over the obstacles leaving the CSX on it or below it according to their needs. Think of what this would do for intrastate Amtrak? This is the main point of my argument and refusal to support the plan - do it right or don't do it at all. California IS planning on doing it right and we're not. We'll all pay the price for the rush in to be first with disregard for railroading's facts of life.  

1. The CSX route takes care of the curve.

2. Union Station is at the foot of the former lines to St. Petersburg and Brooksville passing by the airport.

3. We might actually have to invest in the plant.


OCKLAWAHA

[yapp1850]

ock all you are really talk about is  communer  rail  not intercity rail,  what i herd if state di do all the systems it would be two different  lines   sunrail to lakeland,  tbarta  tampa to lakeland  1.5-2.5  hr  tampa  to orlando   peak-offpeek

[Ocklawaha]

A one stop shop is always better then a mall... TAMPA UNION STATION was that shop when it was saved from the wrecking ball, it was the planned center for all rail until the state got stupid. I'd still like to know how or who convinced them this is the way to build a railroad. When I confronted Dr. Dockery in person at a HSR meeting where I was planning table leader, he honestly could NOT answer any of the questions I rolled in front of him.

Wendy's wanted to know "WHERE'S THE BEEF?" ...and I'd like to know where's the demand and substance?

OCKLAWAHA