Florida High Speed Rail Option and Elimination

[thelakelander]

Scott's decision is taking a lot of heat.  The next few days should be interesting.  It is kind of silly that one dude can come in and rip apart something so large overnight.

Can high-speed rail backers bypass Gov. Rick Scott?

Florida's congressional delegation, state officials and Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer are pushing back against Gov. Rick Scott's decision Wednesday to reject $2.4 billion in federal stimulus money to build a high-speed train between Orlando and Tampa.

"This is a century-type decision that needs to be vetted," Dyer said. "I don't think it was given a fair hearing."

U.S. Department of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood intends to meet either in person or by phone Friday with Florida elected officials, likely including Democratic U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson and Reps. John Mica, R-Winter Park, and Corrine Brown, D-Jacksonville, to discuss ways of keeping the project alive even as California, New York and Washington state offered to take some of the money.

And some officials were bitterly critical of Scott for pulling the plug even before bids had gone out to build the 84-mile system. Eight consortia of companies from 11 countries had indicated they would be willing to put up some or all of the state's $280 million share of the project, while the bid terms would have required them to absorb cost overruns and any operating losses for 20 years.

In a brief news conference Wednesday â€" at which he denounced President Barack Obama's budget â€" Scott went into little detail about his decision, referring only generally to the current and future cost of the train. The state has spent about $27 million in federal money on preliminary engineering and design and was about to issue contracts for an additional $170 million.

"My concern with this is if you look at ridership studies, I don't see any way anyone is going to get a return. And so I'm very concerned about the Florida taxpayers," Scott said.

Scott said it is projected that up to 3.07 million people a year would take the train, which was set to run at speeds up to 168 mph between Orlando International Airport and Tampa.

Officials said the ridership number came from a new study being conducted by two private companies for FDOT. That study has not been released, but Scott has been briefed on it, sources said.

Scott implied that the ridership projection he cited were inflated because Amtrak's Acela fast train between Washington and Boston carried only 3.2 million passengers in 2010, even though far more people live in the Northeast Corridor. However, PolitiFact Florida noted that an additional 7.15 million people rode regional rail lines in the Northeast last year and rated Scott's comparison "half true."

Scott also said Wednesday that he was worried that Florida would be on the hook for $3 billion or more if a business built the train and walked away because it was running a big deficit, an assertion based on a report critical of high-speed rail that was released in January by the Reason Foundation, a libertarian think tank.

Robert Poole, a co-author, had warned that Florida taxpayers could lose billions because many train projects have gone over budget and drawn fewer riders than projected. And Poole said Wednesday that he was skeptical a business would be willing to cover possible construction overruns or operating deficits, meaning the state could have been forced to bear those expenses.

"I think this is a responsible decision," Poole said.

However, a senior aide to LaHood said that concern about long-term deficits had never been voiced by Scott: "We could have negotiated this issue in a final agreement with Florida if they had continued with negotiations. Governor Scott never raised this issue, and the DOT never intended to put the state on the hook for decades to come."

Scott also said he was still reviewing the SunRail commuter-train project linking downtown Orlando with Seminole, Volusia and Osceola counties later this decade, even though money has been set aside in the state budget he proposed last week.

Scott's decision drew applause from tea-party groups who had worked for his election last year and cheered him last week when he introduced his $65.8 billion budget at a rally in Eustis.

"We met with the Governor on HSR this past week and we are even more encouraged today that he has again stood strong against the politics as usual played by the Beltway crowd," said Sharon Calvert, co-founder of the Tampa Tea Party, in a statement.

If the decision holds, it would end yet another attempt to bring high-speed rail to Florida, a quest begun under former Gov. Bob Graham during the 1980s. Several efforts came close, including one scuttled in 2004 by former Gov. Jeb Bush.

Nelson said he talked Wednesday with LaHood about pursuing a plan that would create another Florida entity that could serve as proxy to accept the federal money, rather than the state. This might involve a team of cities such as Orlando, Lakeland and Tampa, maybe even with private partners.

"We can't afford to allow this opportunity to pass us by," Nelson said.

State legislators questioned why the governor would turn down the estimated 23,000 construction jobs the train could create after he campaigned on a "jobs agenda."

Without letting the private sector come to the table, we really don't know how viable it is," said Sen. Thad Altman, R-Viera. "There's no rational reason at all not to allow that to happen â€" unless you're afraid of what you might hear. We might hear that this thing will work."

Lawmakers appropriated $300 million for the project last year, and Scott cannot constitutionally scuttle that spending without legislative authority, said Senate budget chief J.D. Alexander. Lawmakers first approved the project at a special session in late 2009 that also authorized construction of SunRail.

But Alexander, R-Lake Wales, said lawmakers had mixed feelings about it given the tea-party-fueled outrage over federal spending. An attempt to continue funding would likely meet with a Scott veto, he said, and "I don't believe there'd be the support to override the veto."

But Scott's seeming disregard for the Legislature's appropriating power â€" whether it's selling a state plane or killing rail projects â€" alarmed some lawmakers.

Sen. David Simmons, R-Maitland, said he planned to lobby legislators to fight the governor's move and did not think Scott could unilaterally kill the project.

I disagree with what the governor has said, and I do hope this is not an irrevocable situation," Simmons said.

Among the most dismayed was C.C. "Doc" Dockery, the retired Lakeland insurance magnate who has spent 30 years trying to get a high-speed train in Florida.

He congratulated California because he figures LaHood eventually will move much of the money there, just as he previously sent additional funds to Florida after Republican governors in Wisconsin and Ohio pulled out of high-speed endeavors. California wants to build a train that eventually would link Los Angeles with San Francisco.

The aide to LaHood said the money would not be sent elsewhere while Scott's opponents try to figure out a way to save the train.

Dockery, a longtime Republican fundraiser and husband of state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, also questioned whether Scott really understood how high-speed rail was supposed to operate in Florida.

"The governor is saying to these teams that they must be lying when they agree to accept cost overruns and ridership risks," Dockery said.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/os-scott-rejects-rail-money-20110216,0,2863027.story?page=2

[tufsu1]

That will set a nice precedent with the other 49 states.....Remember we still have a healthcare bill in limbo, then the State of Florida opted out of the Federal Medicare program as well in today's paper. Pretty radical changes so soon....and my bet is we still have more to see.

wow...you really need to brush up on your reading....what Florida did yesterday was float the possibility of opting out of the Medicaid program.

[tufsu1]

Scott implied that the ridership projection he cited were inflated because Amtrak's Acela fast train between Washington and Boston carried only 3.2 million passengers in 2010, even though far more people live in the Northeast Corridor. However, PolitiFact Florida noted that an additional 7.15 million people rode regional rail lines in the Northeast last year and rated Scott's comparison "half true."

actually it is worse...3 million ride Acela plus another 9 million ride other Amtrak trains in the northeast corridor and  commuter rail in Boston, NY, Philly, and DC...total is 12 million

[Lunican]

1988 - Robert Blanchette, President of TGV of Florida, Inc., gives the thumbs up sign at the end of his presentation Monday as he presented his bullet train proposal to the Florida High Speed Rail Transportation Commission. TGV was one of Four who presented proposals. The chart at left shows TGV's route proposals.

[Ocklawaha]

Oh, and yes, the SKYWAY was all about "FREE - FREE - FREE."

Scott implied that the ridership projection he cited were inflated because Amtrak's Acela fast train between Washington and Boston carried only 3.2 million passengers in 2010, even though far more people live in the Northeast Corridor. However, PolitiFact Florida noted that an additional 7.15 million people rode regional rail lines in the Northeast last year and rated Scott's comparison "half true."

actually it is worse...3 million ride Acela plus another 9 million ride other Amtrak trains in the northeast corridor and  commuter rail in Boston, NY, Philly, and DC...total is 12 million

Exactly why HSR will fail as planned. 3 million rode that ACELA train because most of them are also frequently among the 9 million passengers on the regular Amtrak Corridor trains.

Florida has no Amtrak Corridor trains, and no 9 million seasoned rail passengers to draw from, worse still the HSR train would bypass the corridor in actuality serving only a partial Lakeland-Tampa segment.

The idea that we are somehow missing out on an opportunity to alleviate the traffic on I-4 is twisted logic, since the Orlando Terminal for the stupid thing would be no where near I-4, OR DOWNTOWN OR, AMTRAK for that matter. That flying train wouldn't remove 120 cars a day from the highway commute.

Think private industry will save us from a huge deficit if we go on with the project? Let's see how that worked out for some of the following railroads, and they had freight to fall back on, Florida HSR doesn't:

ERIE LACKAWANNA RAILROAD







READING RAILROAD







PENN CENTRAL RAILROAD







CHICAGO, MILWAUKEE, ST. PAUL AND PACIFIC RAILROAD







ROCK ISLAND RAILROAD

Still think a few hundred $30 dollar daily tickets are going to help? If that's all we get, and it goes belly up, no amount of promises in the world are going to save the taxpayer from bailing out this boondoggle.

OCKLAWAHA

[yapp1850]

hey do you think hillsborough,polk,Osceola,orange can start a new plan have some partership with amtrak, us dot with out state support as long is rick scott is charge of the state there will be no new passenger rail, so local cities most found a way without state support.

[Dashing Dan]

What I am learning from this thread is that with regard to passenger rail, Jacksonville is more important to Georgia and the Carolinas than we are to the rest of Florida.  If there had been a national passenger railroad plan prior to the allocation of HSR grant money, then we'd be sitting pretty right now, instead of hoping for a share of the scraps if the HSR deal continues to fall apart. In a perverse way, Scott's actions are pointing out the need for meaningful plans to be developed prior to any massive public expenditure.

[NthDegree]

Scott's "half truth" statements ...


http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2011/feb/16/rick-scott/rick-scott-cites-amtrak-ridership-numbers-announci/

One has to wonder if Scott understands transportation at all.     

[Ocklawaha]

Scott's "half truth" statements ...


http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2011/feb/16/rick-scott/rick-scott-cites-amtrak-ridership-numbers-announci/

One has to wonder if Scott understands transportation at all.     

If you want to read half truths and outright deceptions, read the Florida High Speed Rail Application. Shades of "The Skyway will carry 60,000 daily passengers."

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

Ock I believe you are onto something in regard to the poor planning of this HSR line.  However if dumping it creates a political reality that we will have no more federal money for transit in the near future killing the HSR may be chopping off our arm to fix a broken finger.

[mtraininjax]

Ock - PennCentral went down due to labor and most of the railroads have always had issues with labor, basically because the Robber Barons screwed people for so long that the FRA got involved and made railroads run trains, especially PC, that were empty, just to keep the unions happy, so it was obvious they were going to fail. What idiot told the Milwaukee Road to run electrical from St. Paul to Seattle? Those trains were losers for them, for sure. The BNSF has a great book, called Leaders Lead, don't know if you have read it, talks about how BNSF came together with great leaders. Just a segway into some of the pics above.

[stjr]

Well, folks, Scott typifies what I have been saying all along about the impact of continuing to operate boondoggles like the Skyway which has severely damaged Jax mass transit for a generation or more.

Failures like the Skyway are pillars of support to decisions such as this one made by Scott.  I have tried repeatedly to convince fellow MJ mass transit rail supporters that this is another reason to eliminate the Skyway.  In the eyes of many, it is more an example of the alleged folly of rail and other mass transit forms than it is an inspiration to invest even more in such projects.

Should any Skyway expansion advocates succeed in getting their desires moved into the center ring of public discussion by our politicos (I really don't give this much probability in the current environment), expect a boomerang of epic proportions from Scott's mindless minions added to those already prone to junk it based on its historic failures.  Good luck surviving that war.  Meanwhile, such a battle will likely succeed in sapping the public's short attention span and any remaining tiny reservoir of goodwill for rail mass transit, leaving nothing of significance upon which to build a case for streetcars and commuter rail.  

Be careful what you ask for.

By the way, while Scott is in a cost killing mode, can he show equal treatment to roads, and kill the $1.8 billion Outer Beltway project?

[Ocklawaha]

Ock I believe you are onto something in regard to the poor planning of this HSR line.  However if dumping it creates a political reality that we will have no more federal money for transit in the near future killing the HSR may be chopping off our arm to fix a broken finger.

The Federal Money for transit will continue to flow as agencies request funding from the FTA. However a failure of the HSR system would mean certain death to the whole concept in America... Just look at the extremes STJR goes to in his obsession to kill the Skyway, even though we (actually about 4) JTA officials under aliasis on MJ have told him it would end all FTA funding for a decade or more. IE: Why would we give back the HSR money and not reinvest it? NOT ALLOWED, don't follow through and you owe uncle Sam.

I'm so certain of the failure of this thing in Central Florida that I've pretty much staked my name and reputation on it.

I'm going to work up something from the FDOT applications for HSR funding, so everyone (maybe even Faye  ) can see the outright falsehoods and the dream world these guys live in. I know that somewhere in those tons of papers there is a section on reasons to build, and one of the reasons given for a multi-billion dollar project is:
"Because it's fun."  I just hope to God that one of our own consultants working on the project didn't write that!

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Ock - PennCentral went down due to labor and most of the railroads have always had issues with labor, basically because the Robber Barons screwed people for so long that the FRA got involved and made railroads run trains, especially PC, that were empty, just to keep the unions happy, so it was obvious they were going to fail. What idiot told the Milwaukee Road to run electrical from St. Paul to Seattle? Those trains were losers for them, for sure. The BNSF has a great book, called Leaders Lead, don't know if you have read it, talks about how BNSF came together with great leaders. Just a segway into some of the pics above.

"The FRA got involved and made railroads run trains, especially PC, that were empty, just to keep the unions happy, so it was obvious they were going to fail."  BINGO MY FRIEND!

Exactly what will happen to Mickey's Flying Train in the middle of I-4 when ridership doesn't top 2,000 a day and the state wants to shutter the windows.

They will be faced with expanding it to reach a hard market, like the ORLANDO METROPOLITAN AREA rather then the stupid airport and International "Amusement Park" Drive.

Hours will be cut, the unions will go berserk and the whole damn world of American High Speed Rail will implode. Sounds rather Skywayesq doesn't it?

I'll have to check out the BNSF book. Speaking of which have you read:

To hell in a day coach
Lyon, Peter
To hell in a day coach
an exasperated look at American railroads.
[1st ed.]
Published 1968 by Lippincott in Philadelphia .
Written in English.
Classifications
Dewey Decimal Class
   385/.0973
Library of Congress
   HE2751 .L9

OR:

The wreck of the Penn Central
[by] J.R. Daughen and P. Binzen.
Published 1973 by New American Library .
Written in English.
ID Numbers
Open Library
   OL21411980M

Thought you'd appreciate the PC GREEN...

OCKLAWAHA
Always in ATLANTIC COAST LINE PURPLE...

[thelakelander]

Its always a bad idea to throw the baby out with the bath water and turning down $2.4 billion in funding without even exploring modifications to the plan to make a more efficient end product is a horrible way to do business.