Folks,
There have been a couple of posts and links to articles about the Portland, OR transit system meeting resistance to more light rail from Washington politicians. Guess what, these are the same politicians that are opposed to any expansion of Amtrak, have terminated the Sunset Limited into Florida, and refuse to provide funding to overhaul equipment that is becoming more of a problem every day, thus effectively strangling the intercity passenger rail system.
Why - easy - how many politicians in high places have close connections to - gasp - PETROLEUM. Also, any busses that are built for BRT will be made by - gasp - AUTOMOTIVE MANUFACTURERS.
And lastly, if it is going to take until 2025 for get a BRT system running in Jacksonville, that DOES NOT MEET EVEN TODAY'S NEEDS, think about what 18 years really means. Somebody, maybe Somebodys' CAREER.
And a BRT system does require a driver for each vehicle, so that means lots of jobs. Now I am in favor of as much employment as is possible, but I have ridden the Houston LRT and it is great. Each articulated unit, driven by one person - no need for a conductor, the tickets are automated - can carry over 100 persons with standing room, and has provision for several wheelchairs. Boarding is at near ground level as the center doors are depressed and the wheelchair area is at the lower level. But - during the SuperBowl in Houston a few years back, several of the units were coupled together, one report said as many as 10 ran in multiple unit or (MU) and the system did very well ferrying people between Reliant Stadium and downtown. But it has also ran up against the brick wall of politicians that refuse to allow it to be expanded, except by rubber on the pavement.
Other posts have mentioned the sale of land in WinterHaven for the CSX distribution center. When this is a fait' accompli the line along Roosevelt Road will be essentially empty. The state will own it from Deland Jct. to Poinciana, about 60 miles, and there are only a few on-line customers, mostly in Palatka. Expect this line to be downgraded or sold. Ideally, this line ought be made double track to GreenCove Springs and the only expensive locations for doing this would be the Ortega River and Black Creek, where new and significant bridges would be required. The FEC once was double track, and ought be made double track as far as St.Augustine for starters. Once more pliable politicians were in place, we could accomplish this almost as fast as the Music City start was built. But the problem is the politicians. Will Rogers said it best, some 75 years or more ago, when he stated that, "we have the best politicians that money can buy".
J. H. Sullivan, P.E.
Rail Advocate
JH, we wouldn't need a new Ortega River drawbridge either. It WAS double track until about 1965. The ACL line was all double track from Richmond to Yukon. I remember them lifting the rails on that, and taking down the semphores. At a later date, the SCL came along and centered the track on the bridge. I am told one can see the slight adjustment before the bridge.
Black Creek may be a different case, though I remember being on the Champion and having meets in that area. I just can't recall if it was at the bridge.
BTW, Met with Rail Contractors yesterday on this project and looks like we can roll for about $3 - 4 Million a mile for new track on these grades (where needed). State of the art track at that.
Ocklawaha
So how can we stop the ball of momentum JTA has with the current BRT proposal?
Here is a shot of the Ortega River bridge and the realignment.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/mcgirts_creek_bridge.jpg)
Nice Shot, it's pretty easy to see that it WAS double track. I looked at the Google images of Black Creek and saw that the old memory isn't complete washed out. The bridge is single track, but the approach is double, so I was somewhere near the creek when we met that other train back in 1962! Governors Creek (Green Cove Springs) is also single track. But I'm convinced that neither would pose a problem, as I don't think more then a few schedules a day would originate or terminate in Green Cove.
Ocklawaha
i would think that if this was to be included as part of a presentation against brt, an option of building bridges should be included to see if it could still be cheaper. i would think that many people would be against a form of "rapid transit" waiting for a draw bridge, even if it doesn't really change the time much. the mentality that rapid transit shouldn't wait for something could cause a mental block. also, i remember something about building bus flyways that might still be more expensive anyway. the fact that we wouldn't need to build an entire new route could be enough money savings. how are those draw bridges triggered? is it automatic operation when a train is detected up the line? it seems like i see a quick-moving amtrak over there often. does it have to slow down for the bridge?
The rail guys will be able to accurately answer the question, but I don't think any of the trains have to slow down to cross these bridges. They come down well before the trains approach the crossings.
Railroad drawbridges are lowered by a bridge tender well in advance of a train, so there is no waiting.
that's kinda what i expected. i'd still be interested to see a rough estimate on how much it would take to build new bridge crossings for a rail transit system. i'm sure that someone whose signature is in large purple font might know.
Bridges are very expensive, rail or highway. The new Tri-Rail bridge over the South Fork of the New River in Ft. Lauderdale is 2 miles long and came in at $53 Million Dollars. Ouch. The Ortega River Bridge is fully signaled and does not see near the boat traffic of the New River or the St. Johns. Protected by a bridge tender on-site, automatic lights, siren, and schedules, there is just no reason to replace it. It handled as many as 12 fast passenger trains a day in the 1960's, plus freight. Our proposed commuter rail system would hardly crowd that schedule for several years into the future.
I agree that an all new system looks cool with all new bridges and buildings and track... But hey, this is Jacksonville - Bold New City of The South. Where the Mayor rides a Lincoln SUV, the citizens ride JTA buses or drive around in Yugos... as long as they deposit .25 cents per 30 minutes. Real Mass Transit is a great cosmic blender of ethnic and social status of the citizenry. This is why a mix of modes and a matrix of laced routes and choices is so important. So how do we convince the guy in the Lincoln AND the one in the Yugo or the Bus that we can do better? If they are Jacksonville natives, they probably have never seen or "noticed" mass-transit, let alone experienced what it CAN do for a City. These folks will have to be spoon-fed, introducing them to LRT and Commuter Rail in a reasonable, responsible, yet visionary way. $50 -60 Million dollar bridges aren't it.
Ocklawaha
alright. as long as someone can explain why it can work well for mass transit. otherwise, i'm sure someone with enough of a say in the issue and little enough knowledge is going to say the draw bridges won't work with mass transit and we need to have buses with rockets so we can fly them from orange park to downtown with a landing strip on adams and a take-off strip on bay, because having them turn around and use the same street would take too much time.
I'm amazed BigBen! You left off Market and Hogan Street Taxi-ways... Psssst I heard that the secret JTA lab is working on a rocket powered Zeppelin attached to a articulated BRT bus. "LEAD ZEPPELIN-I"
We CAN cite about a ZILLION examples of passenger and commuter rail using draw-bridges. Frankly, we could probably even find BRT that uses them. Northeast Corridor! CTA! PORTLAND!
OCKLAWAHA
will this zepplin use hydrogen gas to save money?
Hydrogen, charcoal, sulfur and potassium nitrate, ammonium perchlorate powder, aluminium and six cases of Bud Light, with Bubba Busnocker and his Sears Roebuck Blow-Torch...
Ya, der Zeppelin mit der rocket und Bud Light is goot!
Ocklawaha