Metro Jacksonville

JTA Transit Ridership Numbers

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6970-p1150892.JPG)

Ever wonder how many people take advantage of the Jacksonville Transportation Authority's (JTA) services on a regular basis?  Metro Jacksonville shares statistics that show the agency's most maligned transit mode may actually be the most popular with local riders.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-oct-jta-transit-ridership-numbers

so basically the Skyway has gone from about 1600 riders a day to about 2400 riders a day....what say you stjr?

I also find it interesting that about 80% of the fixed route service is on-time....seems to defy some claims about the system being chronically late (unless a few specific routes are always behind).

Interesting and very timely article for me, as I had one of my first experiences with the Skyway last night.

I recently moved downtown (Metropolitan Lofts) and am getting acquainted with all the things there are to do downtown.  One of the things I was excited about was that the Skyway stop is 2.5 blocks from me at Hemming Plaza, and San Marco is just a few stops over the bridge.

I rode the Skyway once before.  It was a Friday night and some friends and I ate at Sake House in San Marco and rode it over to the Landing for a few drinks.  Not being familiar with the Skyway, we got back on at Central at 8:50, and upon arriving at the Riverplace station, we found ourselves locked in (closed after 9).  We had to use an emergency exit to get out, which sounded the alarms and summoned some personnel.  Not the grandest of first appearances.

Last night, my girlfriend and I decided to order take out from Sake House and take the Skyway over.  This should be a reasonable alternative to driving over there, correct?  We ordered the food at 6:44 on our way out the door from Metro Lofts...We walked back into our building and HOUR AND 20 MINUTES later at 8 PM!  Needless to say the food was ready when we got to Sake House, but that wasn't the problem.  It took us less than 5 minutes to walk there, get the food, and go back to the Skyway.

Several problems we noticed.
- Very bad information as to how the whole system worked.  There were several other people attempting to make it to art walk, who were thoroughly confused as to how the system operated.  In fact, several couples rode in wrong directions, only to return at where they started.  It was so confusing, that we decided to just hope on one, and hope it was going to where we needed to be.  But it felt better to be on one, than look at the worthless map. 

- There appears to be work going on at the Riverplace station, which might have caused some of the problem.  Was this work and alternate routes stated anywhere? No.  You're on your own in there. 

- No matching up of the trains.  It seems that every time you reach a spot where you need to transfer, you have just missed the other train and have to wait the full 7 (more like 10) minutes for the next one.

Like I said, maybe the construction at Riverplace caused this whole problem, but there was no way of knowing.  No signs, no directions. 2 lines?...One labeled blue, and one labeled blue? 

I was fuming by the end.  Will I give it another go?  Sure, but not many more times, and it certainly won't be the first option I choose.  Will the others who rode and were lost? I don't know. 

IMO the leg that goes over to Jefferson/Prime Osborn messes everything up.  Sure it's a necessary thing, but the transition is pretty poor, I agree.  Those 2 extra stations screw up headways, route efficiency, and ease of use for the rest of the system.

It should be reconfigured into two routes.  Kings Avenue to Rosa Parks and Convention Center to Central.  That should reduce the wait for most or need to transfer within the system.

I emailed JTA about the what was written earlier and got this response.

"Due to the construction going on right now on the platform edges, we can only run shuttles. We can only run on one side of the guideway over the Acosta bridge. We should be completed with the south side stations next week. Also, due to the problems with the construction, we will complete the left side of Central station over a weekend."

Thanks Fsujax. 

I thought that might be one of the problems.  But, like I said, there was zero information that that was going on.  I only came to that conclusion, when I reached Riverplace and saw construction tape.  I would have thought they would at least put up a sign or notification somewhere, especially considering the Art Walk atmosphere and ability to reach new riders. 

I just moved back to Jacksonville from Chicago.  I won't begin to compare the CTA and JTA, apples and oranges.  I will say, that in returning home to Jax, I don't have a car, and won't until I have a job.  As such, I will HAVE to take JTA to whatever position I get. 

An 80% on-time rate for the fixed routes is intolerable.  When you have to make a connection to routes with only half-hour or hourly frequency, your boss doesn't care about JTA being late.  Will they tolerate me being late once a week?  Interviewers even ask if I have my own transportation and job postings make it a point to put "must have reliable transportation" in the listing.  The struggle here is that you can't just take the earlier bus to be certain you will arrive at your destination on time.  Just Friday, my connecting bus NEVER showed up. I had a 30 minute buffer built into my plan.  The next bus that DID show up ran it's scheduled route, which, mid-day, is different from rush hour. 

I fully appreciate the $1 fare and $40/month pass.  What I can't appreciate is the lack of planning in the routes, the timing thereof, the lack of customer service, and the ABSOLUTE ho-hum mentality of the people in charge of JTA.

Aren't we also one of the least-dense cities in the country, per-capita, thanks to our 757 square miles of space?  The fact that the county is coterminous with the city and the fact that downtown is as dead as it is (or is perceived to be) and there are still 200 riders per day isn't the worst thing that could happen.

In the comments for the X4 route ridership numbers, a -18% growth is commented as: "...Route continues to follow a trend of positive productivity."  Did someone not proofread, or are they that backward at JTA...

Take a look at the system map: http://www.jtafla.com/Schedules/showPage.aspx?Sel=17 (http://www.jtafla.com/Schedules/showPage.aspx?Sel=17)  I've made spaghetti that would be more effective and efficient and getting commuters from one end of Jax to the other.

You see... I have an eye condition known as Retinitis Pigmentosa which caused the DMV to revoke my driver license (back in November 2007), forcing me to use JTA city buses and JTA Connexion. This is one of the biggest reason why I am on this website after facing the completely blasphemy and malarkey of our beloved city upclose in mass transit.

I can go into all the details all day long with those entities, but I am going to keep it short and sweet, unless someone ask me to take a dive.

JTA Connexion is one of the biggest jokes I ever seen in my entire life. Majority of the drivers I have seen and met are real nice and sweetheart, but the Director of JTA Connexion is a genuine dickhead. There, I said it. (Wherever you are, the Director of JTA Connexion who may be lurking on this sacred website, please take that into your heart).

JTA and its city buses, granted that they are more reliable than JTA Connexion, but the entire system is obnoxiously flawed.

Yes, I am preaching to the choir, but I want my opinion to be noted by my lovely peers on MetroJacksonville.

I honestly do believe JTA and its board of directors needs to be completely wiped out. I would suggests in bringing few retiredees/employees who wants to migrate from NYC's MTA, San Francisco's BART, Chicago's CTA, and other fine mass transit in North America cities to become part of the JTA to overhaul the entire system.

That should be the #1 step, then the real solutions will start falling in afterward.

I am going to stop here. -out of breath-

-Josh

Quote from: stephendare on October 07, 2010, 03:29:46 PM

Quote from: wsansewjs on October 07, 2010, 03:27:27 PM
You see... I have an eye condition known as Retinitis Pigmentosa which caused the DMV to revoke my driver license (back in November 2007), forcing me to use JTA city buses and JTA Connexion. This is one of the biggest reason why I am on this website after facing the completely blasphemy and malarkey of our beloved city upclose in mass transit.

I can go into all the details all day long with those entities, but I am going to keep it short and sweet, unless someone ask me to take a dive.

JTA Connexion is one of the biggest jokes I ever seen in my entire life. Majority of the drivers I have seen and met are real nice and sweetheart, but the Director of JTA Connexion is a genuine dickhead. There, I said it. (Wherever you are, the Director of JTA Connexion who may be lurking on this sacred website, please take that into your heart).

JTA and its city buses, granted that they are more reliable than JTA Connexion, but the entire system is obnoxiously flawed.

Yes, I am preaching to the choir, but I want my opinion to be noted by my lovely peers on MetroJacksonville.

I honestly do believe JTA and its board of directors needs to be completely wiped out. I would suggests in bringing few retiredees/employees who wants to migrate from NYC's MTA, San Francisco's BART, Chicago's CTA, and other fine mass transit in North America cities to become part of the JTA to overhaul the entire system.

That should be the #1 step, then the real solutions will start falling in afterward.

I am going to stop here. -out of breath-

-Josh

turns out, i do like you wstirngofltteers

What did the director of JTA Connexion do?

When I was at the JTA Connexion office, I was telling the receptionist one of my experiences on the JTA Connexion, which the Director of JTA Connexion walked by and overheard.

That experience was that I was on the JTA Connexion for an approximately 7 hours to the driver's lack of navigation skills in Jacksonville, wrong destination TWICE for a rider, and picking up/dropping off two more riders before me. I had to miss two classes at UNF on that day. I was simply going from my home to UNF which was 20 mins away.

The Director of JTA Connexion REFUSES to believe my story and scoffed away. I stood there in an act of shock and lost all of my respect for the Director.

-Josh

JTA is hiring a Director of Mass transit; the candidate must be "Committed to understanding the unique culture of the JTA and the realities of the environment in which it operates."  Perhaps the JTA should elaborate on the unique culture and realities of the environment for the greater understanding of its passengers.

Quote from: stephendare on October 07, 2010, 02:53:18 PM
In a city of a million people, how do you justify a service that is such a work of shite that the busiest route only averages 200 people per day?

huh?

the highest ridership route (CT1) has 72,000 riders a month....assuming it operates every day, that is still 2300+ each day

the lowest route appears to be the Mandarin express route....which likely runs twice a day (inbound in the am and outbound in the pm)....and it still gets about 10 passengers a day.

Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 07, 2010, 03:53:02 PM
JTA is hiring a Director of Mass transit; the candidate must be "Committed to understanding the unique culture of the JTA and the realities of the environment in which it operates."  Perhaps the JTA should elaborate on the unique culture and realities of the environment for the greater understanding of its passengers.

Oh the humanity...

-Josh

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 07, 2010, 04:19:09 PM

Quote from: stephendare on October 07, 2010, 02:53:18 PM
In a city of a million people, how do you justify a service that is such a work of shite that the busiest route only averages 200 people per day?

huh?

the highest ridership route (CT1) has 72,000 riders a month....assuming it operates every day, that is still 2300+ each day

the lowest route appears to be the Mandarin express route....which likely runs twice a day (inbound in the am and outbound in the pm)....and it still gets about 10 passengers a day.

Those are monthly ridership statistics, not yearly Stephen.

I moved to MIA from JAX in May.  We have a skyway just like JAX except we call ours the People Mover and it actually goes to destinations all over downtown Miami and it's free.  We also have Metrorail that will take you to the North and South ends of Miami and Tri Rail that goes to Ft Lauderdale and Palm Beach....It's nice to be in a real city for a change......

Per chart below, 70% of weekday ridership on the Skyway initiates travel at Central, Hemming, and/or Rosa.  That is a 9 block stretch.  Assuming every rider returns to their starting station and that the 5 other stations send ALL 30% of their trip initiators to the above stations, that leaves 40% of all Skyway riders moving within this 9 block stretch.  And, I bet I am being generous.  Wow, for $14 million a year, we move the average rider between 4 and 9 blocks using several times the amount of time it takes to walk it.  Given the obesity rates in this country, we should make our citizens get a little exercise and forgo the waste of money here.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1036126834_AXu7N-600x10000.jpg)

According to the chart below for June-July, 2010, the Skyway is averaging some 8,000 riders a week.  Divided by 5 days, that's 1,600/day (wonder how that reconciles with the suggested daily numbers on the other charts?).  Of course, if every rider takes a round trip, that is really 800 people a day.  Such a deal for $14 million a year.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1036126774_6Kzhc-M.jpg)

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 07, 2010, 09:05:13 AM
so basically the Skyway has gone from about 1600 riders a day to about 2400 riders a day....what say you stjr?

I say, if you look at JTA's own numbers, all that has happened is that the Skyway traffic in July, 2010, has merely returned (maybe) to the already pathetically low numbers of October, 2008.  Hardly a reason for celebration.  When you are at the bottom, you can only go up.  But, this is far from tens of thousands projected for the EXISTING system over 20 years ago....what say you Tufsu?


By the way, not that it really matters, but what does APC stand for?  And, how can APC sometimes be more than the turnstile count and lower at other times?  How does JTA measure boardings at stations?  Do the gates to the cars have counters in them as well as the alarm beams?

Wonder how many station counts and rides are people realizing they got on the wrong car and they had to reboard?  Bridge's account of his travels on the Skyway bears remarkable resemblances to the experiences I related after the Jazz Festival regarding the confusion and nonsense riders endure using the system. (See http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,8670.0.html )

Lastly, I notice also that the below chart's monthly numbers don't always match the monthly totals (see October, 09, and June, 10) on the bar graph table.  This just gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling about the competence of JTA to accurately report and track numbers and interpret them - NOT.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1036126752_jto57-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1036126764_JNAHu-600x10000.jpg)

stjr......you know that JTA is up front and honest with their numbers big guy! JTA is just as honest and up front as the current Administration and just raised our taxes! I guess JTA must be preparing to feed at the Federal trough? They are going to have to, they get no more money from me if I have anything to say about it!

Well Duh!! Expand- extend- make longer! What else is new?

lol @ Jefferson Stations numbers....that station should not have been counted.

I am concerned with San Marco Station though....whats up with that?? Mosh & Friendship Park not pulling them in? When is USS Adams docking.....As I always say get the Skyway to Riverside & Sport Complex Id easily move back to Riverside!

Quote from: wsansewjs on October 07, 2010, 03:27:27 PM
You see... I have an eye condition known as Retinitis Pigmentosa which caused the DMV to revoke my driver license (back in November 2007), forcing me to use JTA city buses and JTA Connexion. This is one of the biggest reason why I am on this website after facing the completely blasphemy and malarkey of our beloved city upclose in mass transit.

I can go into all the details all day long with those entities, but I am going to keep it short and sweet, unless someone ask me to take a dive.

JTA Connexion is one of the biggest jokes I ever seen in my entire life. Majority of the drivers I have seen and met are real nice and sweetheart, but the Director of JTA Connexion is a genuine dickhead. There, I said it. (Wherever you are, the Director of JTA Connexion who may be lurking on this sacred website, please take that into your heart).

JTA and its city buses, granted that they are more reliable than JTA Connexion, but the entire system is obnoxiously flawed.

Yes, I am preaching to the choir, but I want my opinion to be noted by my lovely peers on MetroJacksonville.

I honestly do believe JTA and its board of directors needs to be completely wiped out. I would suggests in bringing few retiredees/employees who wants to migrate from NYC's MTA, San Francisco's BART, Chicago's CTA, and other fine mass transit in North America cities to become part of the JTA to overhaul the entire system.

That should be the #1 step, then the real solutions will start falling in afterward.

I am going to stop here. -out of breath-

-Josh

I feel ya josh

Jacksonville does need to pic up ideas from the majors, the GOB network has run its coarse there. Its not a big town anymore its a city, they refuse to catch up.

JTA's numbers are total bunk.

They count the same person 2, 3, 4, or more times. If one person has to take 3 buses to get where they're going, which is quite common thanks to JTA's FUBAR route structure, then one guy will count as 6 people on these figures. E.g., 3 "riders" on the outbound trip, 3 "riders" on the return trip. When the reality is that it's just one guy who's now pissed that he had to take 3 different buses 2 different times to get where he's going.

In fact, the vast majority of JTA's ridership has to take at least 2 buses, since they force you to change buses downtown for most trips, so you can probably divide these figures by at least half right off the bat, and then go from there. Until JTA publishes figures that account for the high percentage of connecting passengers and correct for that in their statistics, so that the same person isn't being counted as 8 riders a day, then everyone needs to take these numbers with a grain shaker ocean's worth of salt.

The true JTA ridership is some small fraction of these figures, but there's no way to tell exactly since they don't account for connecting passengers, desipite their system being designed so that most passengers are connecting passengers.

Makes no sense.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 08, 2010, 01:13:37 PM
JTA's numbers are total bunk.

They count the same person 2, 3, 4, or more times. If one person has to take 3 buses to get where they're going, which is quite common thanks to JTA's FUBAR route structure, then one guy will count as 6 people on these figures. E.g., 3 "riders" on the outbound trip, 3 "riders" on the return trip. When the reality is that it's just one guy who's now pissed that he had to take 3 different buses 2 different times to get where he's going.

that is how EVERY transit agency in the country does it...that's why they are called ridership statistics...every time a person rides one of the vehicles, it counts as a trip.

Incidentally, we count auto trips in a similar fashion....say you are going to work but stop first to get gas and then drop your kids at school....that is 3 trips....it is called trip chaining

tufsu............It might be just me, but thats reallys stretching ....don't you think? This is part of the problem with JTA, when I say they "cook" their numbers! Consider it like Economics......buzz words and what if's but nothing plain language! Maybe the accounting methods need to be more real time & life? I have questions regarding the $kyway and how those numbers are tabulated.....same with bus! Something, not only user friendly, but an actual number, not something that is guessed at............one rider, three stops equals four type crud!

It is nigh impossible to determine the actual number of discrete riders taking public transportation. Unless the entire city is outfitted with personal bus cards with photos imprinted, good luck. I can let my friend borrow my pass on the weekends if I don't need it, so is that one rider or two on that pass?

Regardless to whether the system is "designed" to force all transferring passengers through DT, most public trans isn't designed to be single-leg journeys anyway.  

I personally think half the challenges with the current system map are the convoluted bus routes that take you through hells half-acre instead of a more direct route.  There are adequate "main roads" within this city that need dedicated service.  From there, how about we branch off into smaller routes that can offer neighborhood access?  

Someone give me a map of Jacksonville and a full set of Sharpies...

Can anyone speak on how the "Arlington Community Shuttle" project is working out for that part of town?  Seems to me from reading previous articles on that, as part of a larger realignment, that it made sense to have smaller shuttle-buses on the arteries in Arlington that people could transfer to the 'larger' bus routes for expanded parts of town.

Not being an expert on the subject by any stretch, and strictly IMO, that model makes sense.

My question is - is it working?

And - if it *is* working, can we duplicate it for other parts of town in a continuing effort to revamp the current sub-standard bus system?

The Arlington shuttle has been reproduced all over town, 10 in all.  I will assume that means there was sufficient success to replicate the model.  I have not yet taken it (it would be my local); however, my issue hasn't been navigating Arlington, so much as connecting to other portions of the city, particularly the JTB areas. 

I do question how the shuttle can maintain any sense of timeliness if, for an additional $.50, you can get curbside pickup within the "service area".

There is a public input meeting in two weeks(there was also one yesterday) on route changes to MANY current routes as well as the Arlington and Beaches Community Shuttle.

MORE IMPORTANTLY is the discussion about service continuation after 7PM for all routes!

QuoteS1 Regency/Avenues
The proposal is to end the route at Regency Square Mall instead of Downtown. The new route would travel between Regency Square Mall and The Avenues. Travel from Regency to Southside Boulevard would also change. The outbound bus would depart the mall, turn left on Atlantic, right on Live Oak (which becomes Forest) right on Fraser, right on Lake, left on Eisenhower and left on Southside. At Ivey, the southbound route will enter the service road. The inbound trip will remain on Southside to Eisenhower then reverse the loop. The area on Southside between Eisenhower and Atlantic and on Atlantic between Southside and the mall would not be served. If approved, the Regency to Downtown leg would be served by the modified R5 FSCJ/Regency.

R5 FSCJ/Regency
If the S1 modification is made, the R5 route would move to the service road on the Arlington Expressway to pick up riders currently using the S1. No other changes are proposed to this route.

P4 Myrtle Ave./Roosevelt Blvd.
No route change is being proposed. A schedule change is proposed to make connections with the Cecil Field Community Shuttle and WS6 Stockton/Wilson.

WS12 Murray Hill/Edgewood
The end of the route is being considered for modification. The proposed change would take the route from Normandy Boulevard to Lenox Avenue to Plymouth Street to Cassat Avenue. The purpose is to serve an apartment complex on Lenox.

NS19 Avenue /River City Marketplace
The schedule is being considered for modification to improve on-time performance.

WS52 Blanding Commuter Express
The proposal is to add one trip in the morning and one in the evening to the service.

Arlington Community Shuttle
A change in the schedule is under consideration to improve on-time performance issues.

Beaches Community Shuttle
A change in the schedule is under consideration to improve on-time performance issues.

Service after 7 p.m.
Modification to all service after 7 p.m. is being considered.  The plan is to look at the number of riders on all trips systemwide after 7 p.m. and see if the ridership is high enough to keep the run. Those trips with low ridership may be discontinued.

Public Hearing
FSCJ Downtown Campus, 101 W. State St.
October 28, 11 a.m.â€"1 p.m. and 4â€"5:30 p.m.

If you are unable to attend the meeting but want your input to be considered, send your comments to:
Kent Stover
Jacksonville Transportation Authority
100 N. Myrtle Ave.
Jacksonville, FL 32204
Fax: (904) 630-3166
kstover@jtafla.com

Or send a comment through our online comment form.

http://www.jtafla.com/News/showPage.aspx?news=125 (http://www.jtafla.com/News/showPage.aspx?news=125)

I would encourage system users to attend the meeting or email Mr Stover at the email address listed above.

QuoteService after 7 p.m.
Modification to all service after 7 p.m. is being considered.  The plan is to look at the number of riders on all trips systemwide after 7 p.m. and see if the ridership is high enough to keep the run. Those trips with low ridership may be discontinued.

More evidence that JTA is not committed to a viable bus system.  Building hundreds of millions of dollars in JTB ramps, etc. since JTA is really a road building agency and losing $14 million on a barely used Skyway system so JTA doesn't lose face - that's all OK.  JTA is showing it once again "speaks with forked tongue".

To be sure, JTA wants as little input from riders as possible.  They are holding two meetings, 11 a.m.â€"1 p.m. and 4â€"5:30 p.m, right when people who take the damned things are at work. 

Yes, let's cut service to ensure the people who have no additional transportation can lose their jobs, thereby freeing up that position for a more worthy car-owner. They're just poor people and convicts anyway.  Right?

Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 09, 2010, 12:20:32 AM
To be sure, JTA wants as little input from riders as possible.  They are holding two meetings, 11 a.m.â€"1 p.m. and 4â€"5:30 p.m, right when people who take the damned things are at work. 

Yes, let's cut service to ensure the people who have no additional transportation can lose their jobs, thereby freeing up that position for a more worthy car-owner. They're just poor people and convicts anyway.  Right?

That maybe part of the problem...........the poor and the convicted! That just might be why, when I have ridden the bus, none of the middle management and up are ever on them........infact I would bet my first born, none of them ever have!

Don't forget about the disabled, especially those who can't, DRIVE A CAR! Such as due to a sight disability, like myself. Or those who's disability subjects them to discrimination in the job market, and therefore, can't afford to buy a car. The disabled are also looked upon unfavorably by JTA.

That's why I take personal interest in seeing the entire management of JTA fired and replaced.

urbaknight...........rightfully so! Real public transportation ain't it?

Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 08, 2010, 03:47:59 PM
It is nigh impossible to determine the actual number of discrete riders taking public transportation. Unless the entire city is outfitted with personal bus cards with photos imprinted, good luck. I can let my friend borrow my pass on the weekends if I don't need it, so is that one rider or two on that pass?

Regardless to whether the system is "designed" to force all transferring passengers through DT, most public trans isn't designed to be single-leg journeys anyway.  

I personally think half the challenges with the current system map are the convoluted bus routes that take you through hells half-acre instead of a more direct route.  There are adequate "main roads" within this city that need dedicated service.  From there, how about we branch off into smaller routes that can offer neighborhood access?  

Someone give me a map of Jacksonville and a full set of Sharpies...

That hasn't been true for nearly a decade now. Public transit agencies have adopted card-based access systems almost across the board. JTA also adopted this technology. So JTA is well aware of how many connecting passengers it has, and how many actual bodies it carries, since it logs individual rider card swipes when they enter the bus. Doing the math is a no-brainer on this one, since JTA knows how many cards it issues and are used, vs. its cash revenues. These figures are easily ascertainable, and no doubt JTA knows what they are. They just don't release them. And it doesn't matter who is using a card, as only one person at a time is using one card.

It's also not true to say that other transit authorities do the same thing, as since card-based technology has become available some do break out the number of actual passengers. The MTA is one example. You're making excuses here. The figures are easily ascertainable.  

this is not correct Chris...while most transit agencies have adopted cards for weekly/monthly passes, many still accept payment on the bus...and when one transfers, they get a pull-off ticket from the driver (that are rarely trcaked).

No excuses.  Just a little reasonable logic, Chris.  Any amount of information from a transit agency will be fluffed, fudged, smoothed, corrected, however you want to put it.  I can't count the number of times a CTA bus, en route, wasn't accepting cash fares due to a jammed box.  So, they took a manual count which isn't accurate.  But then, when you have 1.6M boardings per day, no one cares about 15 riders missing from one bus.

I think the problem here in Jax is so few individual riders of the system.  Transfers, connections, whatever you want to call them, by JTA's own admission: 10-12K riders per day.  When I take the bus, I see perhaps 30% of the riders use a pass. The rest of us are plunking our change and bills into the machine.  How many of the 10-12K riders are taking JTA as exclusive means of transportation?  The same percentage as use the passes? The rest are frequent but casual passengers, I would wager.

What efforts are being made to get the middle class white people on JTA?  That will be a main stumbling point in increasing ridership outside of route improvements.  Jane Q. Suburbanite isn't putting her $100 Banana Republic-clad butt on a JTA seat where some poor black person from the Northside just got up. If Jane Q. doesn't need the system, she might think it easier to buy 10-12K cheap old cars, pass them out and ditch mass transit.

Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 12, 2010, 12:41:45 PM
If Jane Q. doesn't need the system, she might think it easier to buy 10-12K cheap old cars, pass them out and ditch mass transit.

Or scale back from the huge (and thus more-empty) buses they have now and deploy more shuttle-sized buses all over the place.  Probably a lower cost to maintain and certainly I'd assume the smaller shuttle-types would get better mileage than the 4-5mpg that the bigg'uns get now.

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 12, 2010, 10:55:46 AM
this is not correct Chris...while most transit agencies have adopted cards for weekly/monthly passes, many still accept payment on the bus...and when one transfers, they get a pull-off ticket from the driver (that are rarely trcaked).

Right, but that certainly wouldn't stop them from calculating the figures, tufsu. JTA knows how many cards are swiped vs. how much cash they bring in on a daily basis, so calculating how many riders used cards vs. cash is a total non-issue. They already know this. Then determining how many connecting passengers exist as a percentage of the total ridership is also a no-brainer, since you can determine that easily from how many times each individual card is swiped on each trip, and comparing that to the general population of card-using riders. Then you simply take that figure and expand the percentage of connections to the percentage of cash riders, combine them, and then deduct the connections from the total, and you now have the number of actual people using the system.

Hardly rocket science, and easily done.

Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 12, 2010, 12:41:45 PM
No excuses.  Just a little reasonable logic, Chris.  Any amount of information from a transit agency will be fluffed, fudged, smoothed, corrected, however you want to put it.  I can't count the number of times a CTA bus, en route, wasn't accepting cash fares due to a jammed box.  So, they took a manual count which isn't accurate.  But then, when you have 1.6M boardings per day, no one cares about 15 riders missing from one bus.

I think the problem here in Jax is so few individual riders of the system.  Transfers, connections, whatever you want to call them, by JTA's own admission: 10-12K riders per day.  When I take the bus, I see perhaps 30% of the riders use a pass. The rest of us are plunking our change and bills into the machine.  How many of the 10-12K riders are taking JTA as exclusive means of transportation?  The same percentage as use the passes? The rest are frequent but casual passengers, I would wager.

What efforts are being made to get the middle class white people on JTA?  That will be a main stumbling point in increasing ridership outside of route improvements.  Jane Q. Suburbanite isn't putting her $100 Banana Republic-clad butt on a JTA seat where some poor black person from the Northside just got up. If Jane Q. doesn't need the system, she might think it easier to buy 10-12K cheap old cars, pass them out and ditch mass transit.

Well I must admit I was stunned when I found out the total number of riders is 10k. That is really quite low for a system that requires the amount of funding this one sucks up.

But just like City Hall..............there is no waste right?

The costs are so extraordinary because this city is transporting 10K people from one end of the county to the other on convoluted routes by unionized bus drivers who think 38K a year is too little for driving the means streets of Duval 8 hours per day.  If you see ridership increase the cost per person of our transit is reduced dramatically. 

The larger a city is, the more classes are forced to blend in situations like mass transit.  You see businessmen and vagabonds sitting next to each other going to downtown Chicago every day.  Little old ladies with 40-yr old shopping carts and gangbangers taking the bus at 6am.  How do we translate that to Jacksonville terms? 

um...not sure where you get the 10,000 figure from....JTA has been averaging over 40,000 riuders a day for many years.

Unless you are trying to detrmine approximatlely how many different people ride the system each day...if that is the case, then we've known that JTA gets about a 2% mode split....so if Duval County has 750,000 residents, then JTA is likely getting about 15,000 unique people.

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 12, 2010, 04:32:28 PM
um...not sure where you get the 10,000 figure from....JTA has been averaging over 40,000 riuders a day for many years.

Unless you are trying to detrmine approximatlely how many different people ride the system each day...if that is the case, then we've known that JTA gets about a 2% mode split....so if Duval County has 750,000 residents, then JTA is likely getting about 15,000 unique people.

That figure came from the horses mouth, jta.

The 10-12K figure I found was from a TU article on the driver contract negotiations, not JTA directly. (my bad for stating otherwise)

I am deeply concerned with individual riders.  Certainly connections count toward usage, but increasing the number of riders should be JTA's #1 priority.  Bus shelters, consistent schedule-adherence, amenities at the transit hubs, customer service, and education of the public need to be in place ASAP to grow ridership.

If you factor that of the  795k residents, 26% are under 18 and therefore typically don't ride the bus. That leaves about 582k adults in Duval. Using either the 12k or 15k number, you're looking at between 1 out of 38 to 1 out of 48 adults using JTA. How does that compare to other cities?

Ex, I think it is a mistake to leave out those under 18.  Most mass transit allows for young children to ride free; however, the availability of a bus route to young people 15-18 would be great for first jobs, going to the library, cultural events, etc.  Particularly in the larger cities, students use bus/train to commute to schools that may not be serviced by private school buses.

I found an interesting link as it seems impossible to access straight number of riders versus trips.
http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2009_q4_ridership_APTA.pdf (http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2009_q4_ridership_APTA.pdf)

For the last quarter reporting Jacksonville data, comparing only motor bus (MB) figures, and sorted by population rankings (in parenthesis), these are our peers:

Jacksonville (13)
Memphis (19)
El Paso (22)
Tampa (54)
St. Pete (77)
Richmond (103)
Spokane (104)
Syracuse (176)
Lansing (223)

Quote from: exnewsman on October 12, 2010, 04:46:27 PM
If you factor that of the  795k residents, 26% are under 18 and therefore typically don't ride the bus. That leaves about 582k adults in Duval. Using either the 12k or 15k number, you're looking at between 1 out of 38 to 1 out of 48 adults using JTA. How does that compare to other cities?

average transit use throughout the US is about 2%....obviously it is closer to zero in rural areas, but most cities still don't get above 10% (only exceptions are DC and NYC)

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 12, 2010, 09:49:48 PM
average transit use throughout the US is about 2%....obviously it is closer to zero in rural areas, but most cities still don't get above 10% (only exceptions are DC and NYC)

Where did you get those stats?

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s1081.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_high_transit_ridership

QuoteThe following is a list of United States cities of 100,000+ inhabitants with the 50 highest rates of public transit commuting to work, according to data from the 2006 American Community Survey. The survey measured the percentage of commuters who take public transit, as opposed to walking, driving an automobile, bicycle, boat, or some other means.
1. New York, New York - 54.24%
2. Jersey City, New Jersey - 46.62%
3. Washington, D.C. - 38.97%
4. Boston, Massachusetts - 31.6%
5. San Francisco, California - 30.29%
6. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania - 26.43%
7. Arlington, Virginia - 26.28%
8. Yonkers, New York - 25.47%
9. Chicago, Illinois - 25.38%
10. Newark, New Jersey - 24.04%
11. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania - 21.14%
12. Alexandria, Virginia - 20.55%
13. Baltimore, Maryland - 19.55%
14. Seattle, Washington - 17.79%
15. Berkeley, California - 17.36%
16. Daly City, California - 17.27%
17. Oakland, California - 16.72%
18. Buffalo, New York - 15.62%
19. Richmond, California - 15.55%
20. Hartford, Connecticut - 15.5%
21. Atlanta, Georgia - 14.85%
22. Edison, New Jersey - 14.82%
23. Paterson, New Jersey - 13.85%
24. East Los Angeles, California - 13.75%
25. Minneapolis, Minnesota - 13.19%
26. Portland, Oregon - 12.64%
27. Cleveland, Ohio - 12.22%
28. Miami, Florida - 12.16%
29. Stamford, Connecticut - 11.86%
30. San Juan, Puerto Rico - 11.26%
31. Bridgeport, Connecticut - 11.24%
32. Cincinnati, Ohio - 11.17%
33. Honolulu, Hawaii - 11.08%
34. Los Angeles, California - 10.97%
35. Concord, California - 10.85%
36. Rochester, New York - 10.78%
37. St. Louis, Missouri - 10.28%
38. New Haven, Connecticut - 10.%
39. Milwaukee, Wisconsin - 9.96%
40. Naperville, Illinois - 9.7%
41. Santa Ana, California - 9.24%
42. Providence, Rhode Island - 8.89%
43. Bellevue, Washington - 8.81%
44. Madison, Wisconsin - 8.74%
45. St. Paul, Minnesota - 8.22%
46. Ann Arbor, Michigan - 8.13%
47. Elizabeth, New Jersey - 8.01%
48. Dayton, Ohio - 7.57%
49. Denver, Colorado - 7.44%
50. Eugene, Oregon - 7.37%

40. Naperville, Illinois - 9.7%

Wow. Naperville, the 4th largest city in Illinois (128k) and a suburb of Chicago, with only ONE commuter rail line & 3 stops (Metra BNSF Aurora Line) and yet they are the 40th largest in the country.

Most people would call Naperville the worst example of suburban sprawl, but yet they rank here.

It's nice to see Miami on that list at 12%.  Is it safe to assume the Jax's 2% represents the statistics for the consolidated city, which is essentially a county by most place's definition?  Does anyone have any idea of what the mode share split is for the preconsolidated city?

Transit ridership for work trips is always the highest....but since work trips make up only about 25% of our trips, they are not directly representative of the whole.

So, if you assume that there are about 400,000 workers in Jacksonville (don't have time to look up the actual figures)....and 15,000 use transit, then our transit mode split for work would be 3.75%.

Sorry Stephen, my imaginary set of assumptions was not exploded.

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 13, 2010, 10:10:35 AM
Transit ridership for work trips is always the highest....but since work trips make up only about 25% of our trips, they are not directly representative of the whole.

So, if you assume that there are about 400,000 workers in Jacksonville (son't have time to look up the actual figures)....and15,000 use transit, then our transit mode split for work would be 3.75%.

Sorry Stephen, my imaginary set of assumptions was not exploded.

Well what would you call it then?

You said (your own words, not mine) that no city has more than 10%, and you strongly implied that most cities' ridership is comparable to Jacksonville's. You posted no links or other citations. Then Dan responds with information and a verifiable source, which would seem to indicate that you were off by a margin of 500%. So where is a source disproving the figures Dan posted? Or would you prefer Stephen use the word "detonated" instead of "exploded"?

I'm not seeing the ambiguity in this statement;

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 12, 2010, 09:49:48 PM
average transit use throughout the US is about 2%....obviously it is closer to zero in rural areas, but most cities still don't get above 10% (only exceptions are DC and NYC)

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 13, 2010, 10:26:30 AM
You said (your own words, not mine) that no city has more than 10%, and you strongly implied that most cities' ridership is comparable to Jacksonville's. You posted no links or other citations. Then Dan responds with information and a verifiable source, which would seem to indicate that you were off by a margin of 500%. So where is a source disproving the figures Dan posted? Or would you prefer Stephen use the word "detonated" instead of "exploded"?

I'm not seeing the ambiguity in this statement;

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 12, 2010, 09:49:48 PM
average transit use throughout the US is about 2%....obviously it is closer to zero in rural areas, but most cities still don't get above 10% (only exceptions are DC and NYC)

well as you quoted what I said specifically, you should note that I said no city (except NYC and DC) had above a 10% mode share to transit....this was a general statement for all trips

Dan posted statistics for work trips only (usually the highest attractor for transit than other types of trips)....and discounting the DC and NYC metro areas, the highest was Boston at 31.6%....so it is entirely possible that Boston's overall transit share is around 10%.

It is not my fault that you don't understand transportation data

Transportation statistics for the whole country...note where it shows 89% for the highway (includes 3% for buses), an about 1% for all forms of rail

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_in_the_United_States#Mode_share


or how about this article that notes that no more than 5% of workers commute using transit

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-06-01-mass-transit_N.htm

or how about statistics from the San Francisco Bay area...shows about 10% mode split to transit for work (Table B), but less than 6% for all trips (Table C)....note that Dan's table from the ACS was for the City of San Francisco, not the entire metro area, which is why transit use was higher.

All of this shows clearly that non-work trips (like school, shopping, recreation, etc.) are less likely candidates for transit use....thereby I stand behind my original post.

http://www.abag.ca.gov/planning/smartgrowth/AltsTechApp/SG-Trans-IndicatorsSum.pdf

stephen..........I understand now why JTA is a blipping blank when it comes to something other than bus and BRT now! tufsu may be on the inside looking out, but the outsiders are looking also! I know.......we just need another study to prove what we allready know ....right?

Quote from: stephendare on October 13, 2010, 11:22:28 AM
yeah,  having just read those articles, none of them actually make your point.

Extra credit for being able to correctly identify the words 'mass transit' in a google search though.

The figures are the figures, TUFSU.  

You made a crazy claim that was incorrect, and thats all there is too it.

I think the one graph on Wikipedia makes it clear...of major cities, there's a cluster that fall into the less than 5% category for commuting (i.e., work) by transit....with only 6 cities being 25% or higher.

I agree it is sad that Jax. has such a low transit ridership....but making this just a Jax/JTA only problem is putting blinders on.

Would you be happy if transit use in Jax. doubled and we were similar to comparison cities like Dallas, Houston, Charlotte, and San Diego...or would 5% still be considered terrible?

http://www.vtpi.org/tranben.pdf (http://www.vtpi.org/tranben.pdf)

Page 20 notes 11.6% of the national population use public transportation "at least once per month."  However, please also note page 19 highlights "70% of people who used transit during the last month use it less than five times a week" and "33% of transit trips [are] made by discretionary riders (people who have the option of driving a car)."

Brass tacks: around 15K people in Jax are taking the transit system.  JTA is looking to reduce service across the board after 7pm.  Buses are running an 80% on-time rate. AND I have no where to stand in a summer torrential downpour!  Can we stop arguing about rough calculations and start talking about some solutions?

Yes, Tufsu, 5% is still poor in a city of Jacksonville's size.  According to the attached, Jax should be around 6.4%. I think if Jacksonville wants to continue to grow, in reputation, revenue, etc., strong public transportation is critical.

Ok Tufsu...

So, first you said;

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 12, 2010, 09:49:48 PM
most cities still don't get above 10% (only exceptions are DC and NYC)

In reality, the 38 largest US cities, many of which incidentally have far lower population than we do, all have above 10%, and the larger metropolitan areas can have as much as 50%. If that isn't your claim being exploded, I don't know what qualifies. I'll happily say "detonated" if you prefer?

Jacksonville has 2%.

We are bringing up the bottom, right next to Anchorage Alaska. Sweet.

I'm sure next you'll say how the differing weather conditions between Florida and Anchorage Alaska don't affect use of public transit, and so Jacksonville's 2% isn't really that bad. I guess, if you put it another way, you could say that riding JTA is statistically as unpleasant as sloshing your way through rain, sleet, snow, freezing winds, and subzero temperatures.

But are you talking about all mass-transit or just mass-transit used for commuting to work and only work?  Wouldn't that lead to a discrepancy in the numbers that you and Stephen and TUFSU are arguing about?

Bigger cities have better and more available mass transit that allows them the options to go places other than to their places of employment.  Can't say that Jax offers anything much that's similar, no?

correct DoctorK...and I'm not hiding behind anything Chris.

The fact is that work trips account for less than 25% of all trips (even on weekdays) made by people.....the desire to use transit for work trips is higher than other trips, primarily because of congestion (especially in major cities).

People are less likely to take transit for non-work trips....although auto occupancy rates are usually higher for non-work trips (how many people do we squeeze into a car to go to a football game).

Bottom line...transit use is less than 10% in just about every major city....even in NYC, it isn't close to 50% for all trips.

Quote from: Doctor_K on October 14, 2010, 09:24:45 AM
But are you talking about all mass-transit or just mass-transit used for commuting to work and only work?  Wouldn't that lead to a discrepancy in the numbers that you and Stephen and TUFSU are arguing about?

Bigger cities have better and more available mass transit that allows them the options to go places other than to their places of employment.  Can't say that Jax offers anything much that's similar, no?

Tufsu is trying to hide behind that, but it doesn't add up.

Most people tend to spend more time at home on weekends, and when many people do go out it's with family, friends, to go get groceries, to go shopping (e.g., many trips that tend to require a vehicle). Also, people's trips on weekends often take them outside of their metropolitan areas, where public transit isn't even an available option, e.g. day trips, visiting friends and family, going to a different city, etc.

Tufsu is trying to argue, without mentioning these differences in options and rider behavior patterns, that we should be factoring weekends into the ridership figures as well. Which, for the reasons I stated above and for many others, is total bunk. That is a meaningless comparison that just serves to further confuse the issue by masking how bad JTA's ridership really is. And of course the 800lb gorilla in the room is that, on weekends, of course there will be less riders. Nobody is going to work. Duh. I can't believe he's even trying to argue that.

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 14, 2010, 09:36:19 AM
I'm not hiding behind anything Chris....the fact is that work trips account for less than 25% of all trips made by people.....the desire to use transit for work trips is higher than other trips, primarily because of congestion (especially in major cities).

People are not less likely to take transit for non-work trips....although auto occupancy rates are usually higher for non-work trips (how many people do we squeeze into a car to go to a football game).

Bottom line...transit use is less than 10% in just about every major city....even in NYC, it isn't close to 50% for all trips.

Tufsu, I'll acknowledge your manupulations here and ask you a simple question:

What is Jacksonville's percentage of commuting ridership then?

Since you want to keep arguing that we're talking about apples and oranges, let's make it apples to apples .

Oh and let me save you the time of having to do what I know you're going try next, don't bother trying to compare Jacksonville's commuting ridership with other cities' total ridership, including weekends, etc. No more of your false comparisons. Let's compare apples to apples here, what is Jacksonville's percentage of weekday/commuting riders then?

We already know the largest 38 US cities are all over 10%, and some are up at 50%. So what's JTA's figure?

I've acquiesced. Let's use your figures then. What's the number?

well Chris...I estimated that the other day....based on projected unique riders (not double/triple counting trips) of 15,000 per day and estimated 400,000 workers commuting every day in Duval County, we would 3.75%

That said, the 15,000 figure is based on average daily figures (for the whole month), so weekdays would likely be a bit higher.....I'm guessing Jax. is somewhere close to 5% for commuting via transit.

And yes, I agree with all of you who believe that number is paltry...we can, should, and must do better!

Quote from: stephendare on October 14, 2010, 10:20:15 AM

TUFSU.

You literally do not know what you are talking about.

Stephen...it is just not worth arguing with you....I've known this for a long time, yet you've still been able to drag me in....that is my fault, I should know better.

I'm done with this one.

Ok now I'm really confused.

So I went back through the links provided and the links that Stephen and Dan provided were ALREADY apples to apples comparisons. Tufsu had me convinced that I must be missing something, but I've read back through all the information and the stats are using the same criteria to assess Jacksonville as they used for the other cities. Tufsu had me thinking that somehow we were arguing commuting ridership for other cities vs. total ridership in Jacksonville, but this isn't the case, the figures used the same criteria for all the cities.  

So what exactly is your point here tufsu? Both in total ridership and in commuting ridership, we suck.  

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 14, 2010, 10:25:01 AM
well Chris...I estimated that the other day....based on projected unique riders (not double/triple counting trips) of 15,000 per day and estimated 400,000 workers commuting every day in Duval County, we would 3.75%

That said, the 15,000 figure is based on average daily figures (for the whole month), so weekdays would likely be a bit higher.....I'm guessing Jax. is somewhere close to 5% for commuting via transit.

And yes, I agree with all of you who believe that number is paltry...we can, should, and must do better!

But didn't JTA's own figures (that do double and triple count riders) only work out to 10k-12k daily riders?

Is it possible to stop playing "quien es mas macho" for five minutes and offer solutions or keen insight to the transit woes in Jacksonville?

Has anyone else here ever relied on transit as their ONLY means of getting around? And no, a 30-day stint doesn't count.  For 6 years, I took transit MORE on weekends than I did during the week.  4-6 trips Mon-Friday (to and from work) and AT LEAST 15 on the weekends.  This spanned commuter rail, buses and light rail.

The key to successful transit is convenience.  It, currently, is inconvenient to live in Riverside and commute to the Southside via JTA.  However, it is very convenient to take the trolley from Five Points to Downtown, and yet the trolley shows a 10% decline in service for the last fiscal year.

The fact JTA is categorized with Wichita and Omaha (both a fraction of our population and a quarter of our area) in transit use is ABYSMAL.

Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 14, 2010, 11:27:41 AM
Is it possible to stop playing "quien es mas macho" for five minutes and offer solutions or keen insight to the transit woes in Jacksonville?

Has anyone else here ever relied on transit as their ONLY means of getting around? And no, a 30-day stint doesn't count.  For 6 years, I took transit MORE on weekends than I did during the week.  4-6 trips Mon-Friday (to and from work) and AT LEAST 15 on the weekends.  This spanned commuter rail, buses and light rail.

The key to successful transit is convenience.  It, currently, is inconvenient to live in Riverside and commute to the Southside via JTA.  However, it is very convenient to take the trolley from Five Points to Downtown, and yet the trolley shows a 10% decline in service for the last fiscal year.

The fact JTA is categorized with Wichita and Omaha (both a fraction of our population and a quarter of our area) in transit use is ABYSMAL.

I agree JTA is woefully incompetent and needs reform, as reflected in the ridership figures. However, you need to watch using your own usage patterns as an exception trying to be the rule. Most people don't share your transit usage patterns weekday vs weekend. The figures show this.

Quote from: stephendare on October 14, 2010, 11:39:54 AM
People need to realize how badly their tax dollars and this essential part of city development has been mismanaged.

But since JTA can't be bothered to post their most recent budget figures, we are unable to realize just that.

Hello rock, meet hard place.

Quote from: Doctor_K on October 14, 2010, 12:07:39 PM

Quote from: stephendare on October 14, 2010, 11:39:54 AM
People need to realize how badly their tax dollars and this essential part of city development has been mismanaged.

But since JTA can't be bothered to post their most recent budget figures, we are unable to realize just that.

Hello rock, meet hard place.

Yeah that's the biggest part of the problem, JTA has no accountability.

They don't even release the data you need to get an accurate idea of how badly it's being bungled. We know that JTA's entire system is FUBAR, but the second half of the question is WHY?

JTA would have you believe it's always because they're broke. E.g., we can't afford bus shelters, can't afford longer operating hours, can't afford to pay the drivers, can't afford to invest in rail, hell they claim they can't afford anything except lavish executive salaries and half-million-dollar studies conducted by their friends that always wind up indicating JTA is doing everything right despite all evidence to the contrary.

I want to see the ACTUAL NUMBERS. I want to know, presently, how much money is going down the drain over there.

My apologies for being 4 years late to this conversation.  I wasn't a resident; however, I've taken the bus in Jacksonville since 1996 when I worked at Regency Mall & used it every trip I came home over the past 6 years...so I am a consumer, not bystander on this front.  I have read MANY posts from the past several years to glean some insight before I tossed in my two cents, and sadly they also devolve into bickerfests. With that said...

People need to realize how badly their tax dollars and this essential part of city development has been mismanaged.

People know. But they don't care. That is the issue at hand.  If the citizens of Jax are willing to throw money at one of the state's largest homeless population, they are also willing to throw money at a small transit system for the few thousand who use it.  Makes them feel better about themselves. So, where is the massive campaign targeted toward the middle class extolling the virtues of convenient, clean, cheap, environmentally friendly mass transit?  Who do I talk to about that? 

BTW, here is a great report by APTA on transit demographics via on-board surveys from 2000-2005.
http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/transit_passenger_characteristics_text_5_29_2007.pdf (http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/transit_passenger_characteristics_text_5_29_2007.pdf)

Of note: 81.2 percent of trips are taken by persons who ride 3 or more days per week
            Sixty percent of public transportation trips do not include a transfer
            Commuting to work...account for 59.2 percent of all transit trips reported
            Less than one-third of public transit rider households are "carless"

I would like to know how that compares to Jacksonville.

Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 14, 2010, 12:22:49 PM
Of note: 81.2 percent of trips are taken by persons who ride 3 or more days per week
            Sixty percent of public transportation trips do not include a transfer
            Commuting to work...account for 59.2 percent of all transit trips reported
            Less than one-third of public transit rider households are "carless"

I would like to know how that compares to Jacksonville.

Simply put, it doesn't.

JTA has run things into the ground. JTA views its own system as a form of welfare, rather than any truly viable public transit option, and treats its customers and the taxpaying public with such disdain that its users are those people who are forced to ride the bus because they have no other choice. They have constructed a "last resort" instead of actual public transportation in Jacksonville. Much of their energy is devoted to convincing the public that there is either no problem at all, or that this kind of thing is par for the course. There seems to be no desire to actually fix the problem.

The CTA was mismanaged and failed on every front including a substantial fare hike in conjunction with massive service cuts that were documented in the paper DAILY.  We discussed it at the water cooler and waiting on the platforms. And yet, we still rode anyway, knowing there was corruption, incompetence and general stupidity. Tourists and businessmen still took it because it was a viable option and was ubiquitous, even with the cuts. The passengers saw a tangible benefit taking transit over driving.  Where is this being promoted in Jax?

chris.....stephen....both of you are correct with your take on JTA! A leach on the mass transit equation and then some...............BRT running along side rail! Anyone know just which bovine came up with this brain storm?

Quote from: stephendare on October 14, 2010, 01:04:13 PM
In fact, using the same chart, of all cities with a population of greater than 700,000 Jacksonville is dead last in percentage of population using mass transit, and among cities with a population of greater than 500,000 it is second to last.

Wonderful. Dead last out of every decent-sized city. Dead. Last.

But clearly JTA "works" just fine, doesn't it?

Hi everybody,

Sorry in advance if I'm not close enough on the specific topic. 
Out of curiousity I sent an email to JTA (they are supposed to respond in three days but never did), asking primarily the following:

"Does JTA have any plans to expand the Skyway system?  Would JTA be ready to apply for federal funding for this purpose if a new Federal program is developed for infrastructure improvements that includes mass transit funding?"

I don't know much about JTA compared to some of the people on the site, any thoughts or comments?  ("Mass transit" is some dicey language I can see in retrospect). 

Thanks! 

Quote from: Jdog on October 15, 2010, 11:13:22 AM
Hi everybody,

Sorry in advance if I'm not close enough on the specific topic. 
Out of curiousity I sent an email to JTA (they are supposed to respond in three days but never did), asking primarily the following:

"Does JTA have any plans to expand the Skyway system?  Would JTA be ready to apply for federal funding for this purpose if a new Federal program is developed for infrastructure improvements that includes mass transit funding?"

I don't know much about JTA compared to some of the people on the site, any thoughts or comments?  ("Mass transit" is some dicey language I can see in retrospect). 

Thanks! 

So JTA didn't even write you back? Nice.

No responce to public input or requests for information or even posting the most current operating figures.......so why does the public accept substandard transit? Because it's the only game in town! Maybe we should consider firing JTA and starting our own bus system? I mean .....I think I could do better hiring illegals and using old retired school bus's and would provide shelters!

That's correct, no response from JTA. 

The economy could bump and grind along anemically for quite some time and, although the mood runs counter to additional stimulus right now, things could change, and I would have been satisfied with a generic response from JTA stating JTA is prepared to apply for grants or the like if they become available for mass transit purposes. 

That was my main question. More specifically, I wonder right now, for example, if the Skyway is so given up on that it wouldn't be extended even with substantial funds and outside support that could become available (as is it will be perpetually starved for riders - it's only created to fail).  Does the JTA only have a pitch ready for funds for a bigger bus system? Would the JTA only bother with a bus pitch and nothing else?  Does anybody have a sense as to what funds have ever been applied for or could be?

I don't know much about that kind of stuff - just interested from you all! 

Go Jags! 

 

     

Quote from: Jdog on October 15, 2010, 11:13:22 AM
Hi everybody,

Sorry in advance if I'm not close enough on the specific topic. 
Out of curiousity I sent an email to JTA (they are supposed to respond in three days but never did), asking primarily the following:

"Does JTA have any plans to expand the Skyway system?  Would JTA be ready to apply for federal funding for this purpose if a new Federal program is developed for infrastructure improvements that includes mass transit funding?"

I don't know much about JTA compared to some of the people on the site, any thoughts or comments?  ("Mass transit" is some dicey language I can see in retrospect). 

Thanks! 

In my experience, JTA has always responded to my emails or written comments from public meetings(actually got a letter from them on Friday).  It may not be within three days(it usually isn't) and they don't always address every question(especially on operating budget questions, but the vast majority of other questions get answered).  That much, I will certainly give the agency.  I always get responses in a very professional manner.

Good luck to you!

Glad to hear someone is getting a responce from JTA, now if we could just get some accurate operating numbers that are up to date and current...........maybe the heat will abate! Unless this is deliberate on their part to keep from getting roasted with actual numbers that show just how badly they are doing! I do wonder though!

I don't know if this is what you guys are looking for (re: budgets) , but I just noticed JTA's 2009 annual report is FINALLY on the website.

I would assume they had to wait on final review from auditors prior to posting them

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 25, 2010, 07:44:15 PM
I would assume they had to wait on final review from auditors prior to posting them

It's almost 2011.

If this happened to an actual corporation, it would have been delisted.

not true...I know many corporations that publish their previous year financials 6+ months late.

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 25, 2010, 08:03:03 PM
not true...I know many corporations that publish their previous year financials 6+ months late.

Not supposed to if they're NASDAQ or NYSE listed.

maybe so...but there are lots of private companies (even ones that file with the SEC) that can do it.

and plenty of government entities take their time...for example, if their fiscal year ends on Sept. 30, then they close their books sometime in November or December...get their audit done in January, pay the IRS in February/March (for-profit companies)...and then release their figures

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 25, 2010, 08:12:38 PM
maybe so...but there are lots of private companies (even ones that file with the SEC) that can do it.

and plenty of government entities take their time...for example, if their fiscal year ends on Sept. 30, then they close their books sometime in November or December...get their audit done in January, pay the IRS in February/March (for-profit companies)...and then release their figures

Except we're now going into November and JTA just released. You don't think that's kinda late?

Exclusively about the Skyway and creative finance, John Mica is a HUGE FAN of the Skyway. He see's it as one of tomorrows answers and that JAX bailed out on a 1/3 finished project. He has spoken to MJ on the phone about it with such comments as "Guy's, get me something..." "they just need to ask..."

Now I said this was on creative finance, so in this instance we'll deal ONLY with the Northside line. Originally proposed from FSCJ north to Hogan's Creek, then following the extreme West side of the creeks/parks to the Shand's/8Th Street station. This is within inches of a quite large FEDERAL VA CLINIC planned for the area just South of the South medical arts tower.

WHY NOT APPROACH JOHN ABOUT A JOINT FUNDING-DESIGN-BUILD PLAN? A VA clinic with it's own built in feeder system, could even feature a train through the middle of the lobby.

Time to MOVE...

OCKLAWAHA

well John sure hasn't done anything for Jax. on commuter rail yet....in fact, funding was put in an appropriations bill that moved through the Senate but is sitting in the house.

And while Mica likes rail, don't use the word Amtrak around him!

From my view point.............Rail is rail, who cares who it's name is? Mr Mica talks alot, but nothing concrete from him! If he is waiting till he heads up Transportation Committee, too little too late! I get tired of lip service vice action.............do something!

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 25, 2010, 09:34:16 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 25, 2010, 08:12:38 PM
maybe so...but there are lots of private companies (even ones that file with the SEC) that can do it.

and plenty of government entities take their time...for example, if their fiscal year ends on Sept. 30, then they close their books sometime in November or December...get their audit done in January, pay the IRS in February/March (for-profit companies)...and then release their figures

Except we're now going into November and JTA just released. You don't think that's kinda late?

I don't think they just released it in November. I think it just got uploaded to the website in November.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 25, 2010, 09:34:16 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 25, 2010, 08:12:38 PM
maybe so...but there are lots of private companies (even ones that file with the SEC) that can do it.

and plenty of government entities take their time...for example, if their fiscal year ends on Sept. 30, then they close their books sometime in November or December...get their audit done in January, pay the IRS in February/March (for-profit companies)...and then release their figures

Except we're now going into November and JTA just released. You don't think that's kinda late?

Yes, its late... but consider that October 15th just passed, which was the deadline to file completed returns that were on extension.  So some businesses are just now getting their 09 tax returns in the IRS' hands.  I think we should hold JTA to a much higher standard than they have been accountable for up until to this point, but to Tufsu's credit its not totally without precedant in the private sector.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 14, 2010, 12:31:07 PM

Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 14, 2010, 12:22:49 PM
Of note: 81.2 percent of trips are taken by persons who ride 3 or more days per week
            Sixty percent of public transportation trips do not include a transfer
            Commuting to work...account for 59.2 percent of all transit trips reported
            Less than one-third of public transit rider households are "carless"

I would like to know how that compares to Jacksonville.

Simply put, it doesn't.

JTA has run things into the ground. JTA views its own system as a form of welfare, rather than any truly viable public transit option, and treats its customers and the taxpaying public with such disdain that its users are those people who are forced to ride the bus because they have no other choice. They have constructed a "last resort" instead of actual public transportation in Jacksonville. Much of their energy is devoted to convincing the public that there is either no problem at all, or that this kind of thing is par for the course. There seems to be no desire to actually fix the problem.

That's so true Chris, your wording is much better than mine, but I've been saying the same thing for years. But people simply dismiss me as a conspiracy theorist or a liberal activist. Most think they're too good for public transit. This is a big part of what feeds into the popular local belief, that you must have a car here in Jacksonville, if not, you're worthless!

Frankly, I would not be in the least surprised if they made it a city law to own a car or truck.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE HELP ME TO CHANGE THIS LINE OF THINKING!!! THOSE WHO HAVE TO RIDE THE BUS DEPEND ON IT FOR THEIR VERY SURVIVAL!!!

Just now getting around to posting the 2009 figures huh? Does this mean since we are closing in on the end of 2010 that it will be next year before this years figures are available? From the looks of it............that would be a "YES"! My tax dollars fund their operation and this is the best that they can do? Get rid of all of JTA's upper management and lets start over! With all of them gone, we would have some money to put some simple shelters in ........you know the ones missing...........like 1,700+! But we got BRT coming............that by the way will have shelters...........too bad where it is going in at won't help the rest of the system or actually do something positive! Gotta love those Federal Tax Dollars...........once again, your and my tax dollars hard at work! So Eco friendly to boot.............BRT, just as good as rail, but cheaper!

Quote from: showdogpro on October 26, 2010, 04:21:21 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 25, 2010, 09:34:16 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 25, 2010, 08:12:38 PM
maybe so...but there are lots of private companies (even ones that file with the SEC) that can do it.

and plenty of government entities take their time...for example, if their fiscal year ends on Sept. 30, then they close their books sometime in November or December...get their audit done in January, pay the IRS in February/March (for-profit companies)...and then release their figures

Except we're now going into November and JTA just released. You don't think that's kinda late?

I don't think they just released it in November. I think it just got uploaded to the website in November.

That's how they release them. Duh.

This isn't a public company that files them with the SEC, when I say "release" I mean release to the public. They were not available to me before now, and I'm the public, so...

JTA could care less about the public Chris! They are more concerned about saving their jobs and maintaining the status quo! They also have a problem with real numbers............I don't think what they publish is even accurate.............I mean......how do we know for sure what they print and put out for public consumption is real! With their propensity to cook the books and adjust numbers, I don't think they even know what the real figures are.....they just generate figures out of thin air! We need a third party auditor to go over their books and maybe the incoming administration will consider taking that upon themselves.....concrete grazing bovines!

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 25, 2010, 08:03:03 PM
not true...I know many corporations that publish their previous year financials 6+ months late.

Tufsu, just catching up on this thread.  JTA's year end for this 2009 report was September 30, 2009.  So, by posting it in October, 2010, it's more  than a year late.  JTA isn't regulated by the IRS or SEC.  Their statements are likely due by dates set by state and city laws and their bond holders.  My guess is the statements were done a long time ago and JTA just didn't want to make them readily available to the public on their web site.

Without regard to the numbers, which I will review separately, this report's pictures and words show just how little of substance JTA really is accomplishing.  It's the same fluff repeated over and over for the most part, especially with regard to mass transit.  I also note that it devotes about 5 full pages to its image building (billboards, web site rebuild, TV show, slogans, "outreach", an "academy", etc.) in the community.  I guess that takes on greater importance when you really aren't doing your job well. Another 4 pages are devoted to the Board and Mr. Blaylock.  That's a total of 9 pages out of 17 pages I count excluding the covers, table of contents, and financial information (we won't even talk about the copious amount of space for pictures).  Over 50% about self congratulations! If JTA cared about mass transit as much as its image, we would all be better off. 

Of the projects, much of the remainder is a reminder of how little progress JTA is really making since we now know what has transpired since it was written.

Yeah, JTA has done an awful job. Guess we agree on this one stjr. I guess they figure if they don't congratulate themselves who will? Certainly nobody who has ever been on one of their buses has anything positive to say.

For the amount of money JTA wastes on bus-based transit we could have a real rail-based system. Everyone who thinks buses are cheaper doesn't understand how inefficient JTA is. Our public transit system could consist of two donkeys pulling a passenger cart and JTA would figure out how to make it cost $100mm.