floats
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clowns
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and long lines just to get in
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My god, man. These people have lost their minds.
It's just a means to get attention....it worked. Now if the council would just do the right thing and not approve this budget with the increases
that's the saddest part...our city is barely surviving on a shoestring budget...and folks want it cut further
check this out...the City of Tampa (with less than 1/2 the pop. of Jax.) has a budget that is 80% the size of ours.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/28/281817/tampa-council-approves-787-million-budget/news-breaking/
The real sad part is that were so strapped for cash, we can spend 400 thou on a study about moving the fair and with the same breath talk about budget short falls and increasing taxes, more money for these idiots to spend, now thats whats really sad.
well at least that $400k is going to a local consultant....so the money gets recirculated through the community
tufsu...........thats about the only thing good about it!
Where were all of these people during town halls, budget meetings over the summer, finance committee meetings, etc? I watched a few of them get interviewed by local news reporters and they talked in circles. Uh, changing the city's take home vehicle policy is not going to make a dent in cutting 45 million. Canning the whole Human Rights Commission would only save a million. A bunch of clowns is right! I hope the council doesn't listen.
227 AMIO positions costing $27 Million Dollars a year...........don't see anything being done about that! Cancel the "Veterans Day Parade" chicken feed!
Just to clarify.
While I do believe there are budget items that need to be addressed, I don't think this mayor and current council will be the ones to do that. It will take new leadership with balls to make some of the serious changes that should take place. With that being said, I don't think finding 45 million in cuts by Friday will help this city grow and improve. In my opinion, our tax rate is already quite low. I'm one of those that wants the better quality of life rather than dirt cheap taxes.
I too will continue to volunteer my time money and energy to work for causes I believe better this great hometown of mine, we all want the better Jacksonville, previous notwithstanding this could not possibly be the right time (big picture) to raise the millage [so drastically].
The faces behind the broad council desk are not struggling to feed their faces or families.
I personally do not care if you own or rent your hatrack, but do you trruly believe that a 9% jump is the element which will [voila / tada] deliver your vision of the better Jacksonville?
C'mon, loon.
I am learning from C o J general counsel, that council convenes biweekly to continually adjust the budget.
I am still awake watching these nincompoops confuse themselves.
it would be funny if I weren't so pissed.
If the city is so desperate why did they give 4MM back to the Jags for a Ruth Chris dinner?
Said it before..............10% cut across the board for all Departments and make do! Any takers on who will file the first lawsuit against this? uptowngirl...........I don't have the faintest idea and evidently the Council does not either!
Why not make churches pay a 10th or some other fraction of their property taxes? There is an absurd number of churches in jacksonville. FBC owns almost 70 million in property downtown. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's?
400K spent on the study to move the fair from DT to the Equistrian center could of kept Brentwood library open five days a week, and restored the childrens library. Does anyone here think the moeny was better spent on this study than on supporting education for children in a depressed neighborhood? The whole second floor is blocked off and empty (this was the childrens section) and half the racks on the first floor are now empty. There are still a lot of DVDs and romance novels :-(
According to the COJ budget, the millage increase represents a stable revenue from last year. So essentially the millage rate needs to go up to maintain the status quo.
QuoteProperty Taxes
Property values in the city declined 7.0% from FY 09-10 to FY 10-11. The millage rate
for the FY 10-11 Proposed Budget is 10.1193 mills, an increase from the current millage
rate of 9.2727. However, the increase in the millage rate will collect, on the whole, the
same revenues from properties on the tax roll a year ago. After distributions to the tax
increment districts, property taxes are expected to produce net revenues of $489.7
million for FY 10-11, or about 49.2% of the total General Fund revenues.
QuoteExpenditures
Total expenditures in the General Fund total $994.5 million for FY 10-11, an increase of
$13.0 million, or 1.3%, from the FY 09-10 Budget. There are several cost saving or
avoidance measures in the FY 10-11 Proposed Budget that total approximately $40
million, including 3% salary decreases and a 10% contribution for employee health
insurance premiums, reduced hours at five branch libraries, changes in the Fire
Department that will have a minimal impact upon service delivery, various reductions
and deferrals in the Sheriff’s Office, the elimination of positions in several civilian
departments, savings from privatization efforts and several other reductions throughout
the government.
Reductions in Positions
A total of 96 positions have been eliminated in the non-public safety departments in the
FY 10-11 Budget compared to a year ago. In addition, 20 positions in the Fire
Department will be eliminated during FY 10-11 through attrition.
QuoteIf the city is so desperate why did they give 4MM back to the Jags for a Ruth Chris dinner?
B/c that money can be spent only on the stadium maintenance fund... which is mainly funded from the bed tax and actually not putting negative pressure on the overall city budget b/c revenue is actually generated from the ballpark/arena/stadium/parking lots
The people that were b!tching about Jack Del Rio and Wayne Weaver were really a little much last night. Why don't we also blame Peter Lynch, Bill Foley, Herb Peyton, Michael Ward or Preston Haskell. Those are also wealthy individuals that have absolutely nothing to do with the city budget... so let's blame them too!!! >:( Right?!?! ::)
Quote400K spent on the study to move the fair from DT to the Equistrian center could of kept Brentwood library open five days a week
Don't need to worry about that, b/c they are now proposing to shut down the Equestrian Center for this upcoming fiscal year.
There were some intelligent people offering some intelligent solutions last night... and then there were people there to complain for the sake of complaining. And some of the council members were so scared for their political careers that they were too shell shocked to make the hard, rational decisions they were elected to do. The city council isn't a career, it's a duty. You could clearly tell who was just scared for their hides, and who was actually thinking the process through.
I liked the signs that read, "Payton [sic] we will vote you out of office!!"
Not sure how they will do that considering he's not up for re-election.
I've got the live audio streaming, and at this moment they're discussing what sounds like a 6% payroll cut from the general fund for all departments. I think this is Joost's amendment...
Intended to cut at least 33 million from payroll and prevent layoffs, but it's asking a lot. I'm not sure if this is on top of the 2-3% already negotiated...
http://imedia.coj.net/citycouncil (http://imedia.coj.net/citycouncil)
I just don't get it, look in the "real world" meaning NON govt living off of everyone elses wages, people take pay cuts, do not get raises, and are laid off. Companies cut back on travel, personal expenses, and make the cuts were they need to be made. It is not status quo as they ahve already slashed a lot of services and still keep oerspending on BS. I AM willing to pay more in property taxes as what they are asking is not going to impact my lifestyle on bit, my issue is they are not using the money I already pay responsibly so why should I pay anymore?
QuoteI liked the signs that read, "Payton [sic] we will vote you out of office!!"
Not sure how they will do that considering he's not up for re-election.
Jacksonville has spoken... Payton and Jerrard need to go!! LOL
QuoteI just don't get it, look in the "real world" meaning NON govt living off of everyone elses wages, people take pay cuts, do not get raises, and are laid off. Companies cut back on travel, personal expenses, and make the cuts were they need to be made. It is not status quo as they ahve already slashed a lot of services and still keep oerspending on BS. I AM willing to pay more in property taxes as what they are asking is not going to impact my lifestyle on bit, my issue is they are not using the money I already pay responsibly so why should I pay anymore?
I absolutely agree with your line of thought.
What do you suggest the solution is?
I say poop on Jost's suggestion of 5%.............make it 10% for all Departments! Forget about hiking the property tax as mayor John Boy suggest......maintain the status quo! Eliminate all AMIO positions (thats $27 Million a year) shut down the Equestrian Center now! Rescind the Vescor time payment plan for the next 10 years of interest only payments due...........stop the Metropolitan Park overhaul and hold on the River Walk upgrade (both combined for a total of about $16 Million Dollars) Hold all raises and have all City employee's, middle management and above subjected to a 10% pay cut.........they can afford it, if not leave) If you crunch the numbers........totals out to $50 Million plus! What is so hard about it?
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 28, 2010, 08:17:17 PM
that's the saddest part...our city is barely surviving on a shoestring budget...and folks want it cut further
check this out...the City of Tampa (with less than 1/2 the pop. of Jax.) has a budget that is 80% the size of ours.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/28/281817/tampa-council-approves-787-million-budget/news-breaking/
and Tallahassee's budget is also over $700 million....given that does include utilities (our JEA), but please...the City has less than 200,000 residents!
Quote from: uptowngirl on September 29, 2010, 07:11:32 AM
If the city is so desperate why did they give 4MM back to the Jags for a Ruth Chris dinner?
best guess without doing that, there would have been no deal...and the City wouldn't have seen $ anyway
btw...it seems like some people don't make the connection regarding government $ finding its way back into the economy....so let me make this simple....
5% pay cuts for city employees (local citizens) means they spend 5% less in the community....which in turn leads to more businesses (retail and services primarily) closing....which leads to less tax revenue generated....which leads to more cuts....
how does this accomplish anything good?
Darn it man..........I hate to say it tufsu...........but I have to agree with you! Lordy, never thought I would say that.....but your correct as to the Jaguars situation! However, cuts need to be made, kinda obvious and there is no simple panecea! Bite the bullet now, regroup and attack from a different direction! Governement should be no different from the taxpayers...........operate within your budget and thats it! Overruns either put you in the barred motel or like we have..........gotta have a property tax increase to make ends meet! Did you forget about all of the "Fee's" we have been blessed with? Cost overruns within the City structure have taken place over many years, just not this one! Time to pay the piper, suck it up and regroup!
Quotebest guess without doing that, there would have been no deal...and the City wouldn't have seen $ anyway
Good point!
I also found it humerous while everyone else was debating
how much to reduce the city's contingency fund... Mrs Lee tried repeadetly to use nearly all of the contingency fund to hire back the firefighters.
My cousin was one of the demotions so I do have a personal connection and this is no comment as to my agreement/disagreement about the firefighter situation... but I found it quite humerous while most were focused on what cuts should be made, she was repeadetly trying to spend.
Cuts need to be made. Every city and every government can trim some fat. Our city has a lot of fat, but still looks pretty lean when compared to our federal government or many other cities.
However, I agree with Tufsu and CS, our budget is so small to begin with. This is for two reasons: our extremely low millage rate that does not go to schools (~9) and a low fair market value given to many properties in Jacksonville. For instance, the city thinks that the largest houses on the river in Ortega and San Marco would sell on the open market for $2-3.5 million at most. The largest houses. They could bump that value up easily to $5 mil + for several of the houses, even in this market, and get away with it. It seems they have values either right or even a little high when you get below houses that would sell for $1.5 mil in the open market or less.
So essentially, since I know a lot of people would prefer to just tax the richest 1-2% (I wouldn't but...), the city could levy higher property taxes on the rich only by bumping up that value.
Also, if the city had given a damn about our downtown for longer, our vacancies downtown would probably not be as high, meaning the buildings would be worth more than they currently are, meaning the city could be collecting higher taxes on the most valuable buildings in the whole city. So much of tax revenue comes from downtown anyway, their own foresight, care, and planning could be bringing in the higher taxes they need. Instead we have let so many companies move to the burbs, and even those hardly worth a penny buildings relative to the 15-42 floor office towers are suffering from high vacancy and lowered values.
Heck, I am thinking about interviewing with Deutsche Bank (they are looking at 5 schools for their 2011 class and mine is one) and they are bringing the entire class to their global sales division down in Jacksonville (15 people on top of 70 already there), and their "big" relocation to jax last year was straight to gate Parkway, but they could be in offices downtown like they would be in almost any other city.
Eventually our city will get smart and impose total impact fees on developers trying to build PUD's in the suburbs by making developers cover complete costs of all infrastructure, schools, libraries, fire and police, etc instead of levying localized impact fees and even incentives. All the money that we were spending in the burbs will be focused on core inner areas. Eventually our core inner areas will be so desirable and so expensive that they will easily collect their current tax revenue just from the inner neighborhoods. People might be priced out, but hey, we'll be getting what we want here on MetroJax...vibrant, extremely nice, walkable urban neighbrohoods, and a freaking awesome downtown.
Jax politicians are probably worried that if they make it hard for companies and developers to come into our suburbs, we won't experience the growth we have been in the past. Well, that's probably true because people only move here by default because we are in Florida. If we created something different, like reinvesting all the tax money in our urban neighborhoods and downtown, then yea the suburbs will suffer and growth might slow, but after 5 years or so we will have created something different from other Florida cities and young educated professionals and companies may decide to start moving to Jax again to be in the urban core. Companies only move here because our suburbs are cheaper than Orlando's suburbs and Tampa's suburbs and certainly Miami's suburbs and we have a large port and good weather. The port and weather staying the same, we have nothing on the other cities because everyone has good suburbs. We differentiate by focusing more on the core, eventually the core will be self financed through higher values and higher taxes, and we will have something on the other cities and an environment that young educated upwardly mobile professionals actually like.
OK extremely long rant over...
simms3..........think its hard now.........what do you think will happen if Amendment 4 is passed?
Statement from Mayor Peyton:
Quote“The budget deliberations of the Jacksonville City Council reflected the tough choices that elected officials must make in today’s challenging financial climate.
The debate over the last 24 hours also reflects the most transparent and robust budgeting process in this city’s history. This included more than a dozen town hall meetings and/or community budget workshops that began six months before the budget was proposed.
I appreciate the work of the Jacksonville City Council and the Finance Committee during the last three months to exercise their own due diligence, review the proposed budget and identify additional savings and cost reductions. The collective efforts of the legislative and executive branches this year has resulted in an even better product for our community.
I am also appreciative of the citizens who have taken the time to express their thoughts and concerns about the city’s budget and services. This included those who participated in the budget workshops, town hall meetings, Finance Committee budget hearings and at City Council meetings.
Together, the administration and the City Council identified approximately $26 million in operating cost reductions and approximately $20 million in reduced employee-related expenses. It also allows the city to continue to provide the services that the citizens expressed their support of through our budget workshop and engagement process.
In addition, the decision made on the millage rate this year, will help to ensure that Jacksonville is able to continue on a path to a more secure and financially-stable future.â€
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 29, 2010, 12:58:46 PM
Quote from: uptowngirl on September 29, 2010, 07:11:32 AM
If the city is so desperate why did they give 4MM back to the Jags for a Ruth Chris dinner?
best guess without doing that, there would have been no deal...and the City wouldn't have seen $ anyway
btw...it seems like some people don't make the connection regarding government $ finding its way back into the economy....so let me make this simple....
5% pay cuts for city employees (local citizens) means they spend 5% less in the community....which in turn leads to more businesses (retail and services primarily) closing....which leads to less tax revenue generated....which leads to more cuts....
how does this accomplish anything good?
Take my money in the form of taxes,along with thousands of others, who are already getting paycuts and layoffs in the corporate workd, and hike JEA bills by 50% and your economy really goes down the drain.
QuoteFor instance, the city thinks that the largest houses on the river in Ortega and San Marco would sell on the open market for $2-3.5 million at most.
Well, the assessed value is not a straight market value based on comparables like an appraisal for a loan... the assessed value is subject to certain homestead exemptions, classified useage exemptions, and yearly caps on assesments. So, that's a little too narrow of a view.
California could mint money if they repealed Prop 13, but that isn't going to make a lot of elderly people who have owned their homes 30 years very happy.... and elderly people tend to vote :)
Quote from: CS Foltz on September 29, 2010, 03:43:58 PM
simms3..........think its hard now.........what do you think will happen if Amendment 4 is passed?
Amendment 4 passes and I officially give up all interests in the state of Florida. I will not even mention Florida, Jacksonville, or anything related in a sentence. FL pulls that stunt and it will essentially kill itself (until 4 is repealed).
Quote from: fieldafm on September 29, 2010, 06:09:43 PM
Well, the assessed value is not a straight market value based on comparables like an appraisal for a loan... the assessed value is subject to certain homestead exemptions, classified useage exemptions, and yearly caps on assesments. So, that's a little too narrow of a view.
Good reminder. Forgot to take all of this into consideration. I still think overall values all across the urban core board can be increased leading to increased tax revenues if the city focuses its investment on the inner core. It's never going to pull in the same kind of revenue from sprawly suburbs and it's going to cost the city more to keep them up.
Not that I'm necessarily in favor if amendment 4, but handing the state over to developers and following laissez faire right off the cliff certainly work out so well either, did it? Has to be some balance.
Quote from: simms3 on September 29, 2010, 06:50:23 PM
Quote from: CS Foltz on September 29, 2010, 03:43:58 PM
simms3..........think its hard now.........what do you think will happen if Amendment 4 is passed?
Amendment 4 passes and I officially give up all interests in the state of Florida. I will not even mention Florida, Jacksonville, or anything related in a sentence. FL pulls that stunt and it will essentially kill itself (until 4 is repealed).
Chris..........initially I was all for #4 and think it has merit, but am having second thoughts! There needs to be some balance but I don't think another "Agency for Oversight" is the way of the future. I look at what has taken place to this point, developers running amok buying land so they can build the township of the future.....the only thing that has slowed that up has been the economy! I have no problem with anyone enjoying the fruits of their labors but when we all are effected by those actions......something is just not right!
Proper zoning and land use regulations can easily solve the problem of developers coming in and building 10 Nocatees. I think the current system of zoning/land use regulations works, we just need to make sure we elect people who will appoint good people to be in charge of said regulations and who know what they are doing.
Amendment 4 will screw the state.
simms3......that is a possibility, but then I see someone like Paul Harden in action and say "WTF"! Accountabilty is a possibility, but that would take something as mundane as Ethics! I tend to think it boils down to the individuals themselves.........all of the regulations in the world could be circumvented in the blink of an eye with the wrong individual in the wrong spot at the right time.
Except it didn't work. There are macro factors, but we are probably up with Cali for the hardest hit state in the union, and it really flows from unchecked development. Personally I'm livid at all the existing tax base that was lost to create vacant lots for condos that never happened. We really do need some process for ensuring sound development practices, currently its a crapshoot. A blanket prohibition on anything short of a referendum as is currently proposed in amendment 4 is probably not the best solution, but you also can't rely on incumbents To manage things appropriately since they wind up in bed with the developers. This isn't speculation, it's what happened. We tried it that way already and it didn't work. Like i said there has got to be some kind of middle ground on this. We need there to be.
Quote from: simms3 on September 29, 2010, 08:04:40 PM
Proper zoning and land use regulations can easily solve the problem of developers coming in and building 10 Nocatees. I think the current system of zoning/land use regulations works, we just need to make sure we elect people who will appoint good people to be in charge of said regulations and who know what they are doing.
Amendment 4 will screw the state.
Edited to add: Sorry for the poor typing, writing on a touchscreen keyboard is tough.
Yea all regular people are ethical! Ok ::) There are certainly unethical people in power, but by golly there are plenty of unethical people in the unwashed masses. Amendment 4 does not really solve that issue. It just holds up any kind of process that takes place. Besides, I tend to trust a well educated, well traveled planner/politician more than the average person when it comes to knowing what is probably best for the city or how to run a city. Despite what we all think on MetroJax, there are so many people in the Jax metro who actually like strip mall developments and Nocatees and who oppose investing in downtown or in public transportation. Even though we have to really battle many of our city leaders and JTA, we probably do better by them than if we had to battle the general public in this town. If you have ever read the average post on the FTU website, that is what we would be up against if Amendment 4 passed. The FTU blogosphere/comment section would become daily life.
It's not about ethics. It's about reality. And progress for the sake of progress is rarely a good thing.
The point is that there needs to be a mechanism by which residents of a community can decide what course of development to pursue, rather than relying on disconnected elected officials to safeguard their interests. It never works out. And you're forcing me into the unenviable position of defending amendment 4, which I don't actually support. So let's not shoot the messenger, I'm just saying, there really should be some kind of constraints designed to ensure wiser development moving forward.
Quote from: simms3 on September 29, 2010, 08:23:00 PM
Yea all regular people are ethical! Ok ::) There are certainly unethical people in power, but by golly there are plenty of unethical people in the unwashed masses. Amendment 4 does not really solve that issue. It just holds up any kind of process that takes place. Besides, I tend to trust a well educated, well traveled planner/politician more than the average person when it comes to knowing what is probably best for the city or how to run a city. Despite what we all think on MetroJax, there are so many people in the Jax metro who actually like strip mall developments and Nocatees and who oppose investing in downtown or in public transportation. Even though we have to really battle many of our city leaders and JTA, we probably do better by them than if we had to battle the general public in this town. If you have ever read the average post on the FTU website, that is what we would be up against if Amendment 4 passed. The FTU blogosphere/comment section would become daily life.
Oh and I agree with you in news4 and the TU's comments section there is no defending those idiots...
QuoteProper zoning and land use regulations can easily solve the problem of developers coming in and building 10 Nocatees.
In the late 70's/early 80's, there was a growth management plan in Jax called the 2005 Comprehensive Plan(mandated by a state law for localities to have comprehensive growth plans). The majority of people in the city at the time were pro-growth and developers saw a huge opportunity among vast expanses of cheap land. As such, the 2005 Comprehensive Plan was rarely followed and never had anyone dedicated to
enforce it. Ever wonder how Baymeadows/Mandarin experienced such growth? Well, mostly due to
lax enforcement of the 2005 Comprehensive Plan and having
NO impact fees during this time. Fellow named Dale Joyner kind of took a stand against what was going on at the time.... but in the end, the developers won out. Sound familiar? Hell, I can think of a certain developer getting impact fees waived on a certain Argyle development project as the most recently perfect example of this.
The problems behind why Amendment 4 came about are very real... but to me, the key is to refine and actually
enforce growth management plans. Amendment 4 will not solve the problem. History has shown us, you can buy votes quite easily. What is needed is good leadership and courage.
Besides, if Amendment 4 was in place 25 years ago do you think the explosive growth around Baymeadows wouldn't have happened? You're fooling yourself if you do.
I believe the 2030 Mobility Plan land use policies have already been approved at the state level. If so, Amendment 4 may not have as much of a significant impact on Jacksonville.
Quote from: fieldafm on September 29, 2010, 08:39:46 PM
The problems behind why Amendment 4 came about are very real... but to me, the key is to refine and actually enforce growth management plans. Amendment 4 will not solve the problem. History has shown us, you can buy votes quite easily. What is needed is good leadership and courage.
Agreed. The problems are real and there is a way to solve most of the problems No system is perfect, but Amendment 4 will most undoubtedly create MORE problems than what we already face. I would rather have the kind of growth we have been seeing for the last 30 years than no growth because decisions cannot possibly ever be made when thousands or millions of people are involved. Heck, in my lab at school there are 24 students and for the last lab we thought about making 1 big group of the whole class. It was soon agreed upon that 24 people was too large to do a lab in 6 hours because it would take at least an entire hour or two for everyone to figure out and agree on how to go about the lab.
Yea developers can pull some weight that average people can't, but average people, especially in large numbers, can vote in or vote out people in office. If people were simply more informed about anything, we would not have nearly the same problems with any system as we currently do. The safeguard is the voting system, though. Unfortunately, though, we hardly ever get any truly worthy candidates in office as a result, but I blame the people, not the candidate. Amendment 4 does give more power to the people, which sounds good, but in this particular case I am pretty weary that it would be a pretty bad thing.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2010, 08:43:07 PM
I believe the 2030 Mobility Plan land use policies have already been approved at the state level. If so, Amendment 4 may not have as much of a significant impact on Jacksonville.
Meant to ask this the other night... what mechanisms would be in place for the 2030 Mobility Plan to be followed/enforced assuming it gets implemented at the local level?
Quote from: uptowngirl on September 29, 2010, 05:14:26 PM
Take my money in the form of taxes,along with thousands of others, who are already getting paycuts and layoffs in the corporate workd, and hike JEA bills by 50% and your economy really goes down the drain.
did you conveniently forget that the millage rate was reduced for something like 18 straight years...or that this millage increase is really revenue neutral as most folks' property values declined?
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 29, 2010, 11:09:57 PM
Quote from: uptowngirl on September 29, 2010, 05:14:26 PM
Take my money in the form of taxes,along with thousands of others, who are already getting paycuts and layoffs in the corporate workd, and hike JEA bills by 50% and your economy really goes down the drain.
did you conveniently forget that the millage rate was reduced for something like 18 straight years...or that this millage increase is really revenue neutral as most folks' property values declined?
Tufsu, I think you miss my point. I do not mind paying more if I am getting my money's worth, right now I am not. My money is being wasted, and when it is running out (such as now) I am being asked for more money, and still no plan to stop the waste. My response was to your comment about cutting city workers income and that having an impact on the economy. I am hoping that was a joke. I am betting there are more homeowners being asked to pay more to support continued waste and sprawl, than city workers being asked to give up some of the gravy train.
one person's wasetful spending is another's necessity.
Example...how many people in Jax. do you think would find spending money to build streetcars in the urban core neighborhoods to be wasteful?
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 30, 2010, 08:00:56 AM
one person's wasetful spending is another's necessity.
Example...how many people in Jax. do you think would find spending money to build streetcars in the urban core neighborhoods to be wasteful?
We have street cars in the Urban Core???!!!! Holy cow I missed that!!!!
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on September 30, 2010, 08:19:56 AM
I think most people would appreciate it if their tax dollars were invested in worthy projects at fair market price( of course, you have to factor in a fraud premium) instead of staggering government personnel costs. Oh wait a minute, I forgot what a boost to the economy that is since gov. employees are paid from money trees.
do you know what the salary of the average city employee is?
One thing I know is there are far more folks making over $100k at my company than there are at the City (and the City has more employees)
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 30, 2010, 08:32:44 AM
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on September 30, 2010, 08:19:56 AM
I think most people would appreciate it if their tax dollars were invested in worthy projects at fair market price( of course, you have to factor in a fraud premium) instead of staggering government personnel costs. Oh wait a minute, I forgot what a boost to the economy that is since gov. employees are paid from money trees.
do you know what the salary of the average city employee is?
One thing I know is there are far more folks making over $100k at my company than there are at the City (and the City has more employees)
I don't know how much the average city employee makes. Perhaps you could enlighten us. I do know that city employees have been better insulated from the recession than those at many other local businesses, where significant salary cuts and reductions in benefits have occurred. Uptown girl's point is a good one, and I think you are missing it. The tax increase will likely have a greater negative effect on the economy than an across the board pay cut in government salaries would. There are a lot of people in Jacksonville who are going to be paying significantly more in property taxes this year because of the millage increase. Folks with homesteads that are assessed below market value are hit with both higher assessments and higher taxes. Many of those are elderly people on fixed incomes, or lower income families living in neighborhoods that didn't see huge increases in property values during the last decade. How are they supposed to pay their bills?
Out of my element here, but trying to make sense of things.
Who in their right mind would even think that they would vote to cut their own pay when they have the option of raising the millage (which is really low, but that's another conversation)?
There are those of us that have HAD to cut our salaries, because our businesses would go under if we didn't - it wasn't a choice. But when things are really good, I don't have a problem giving myself a raise or paying myself a bonus (unfortunately neither do they, once again, another conversation). But IMO I think there should have been a better compromise. Granted, the millage rate wasn't raised as high as it was originally proposed, but I think they still should have cut pay across the board. 5% was proposed? Why not a compromise at 2-3%? I think that would have taken a lot of the pressure off of the members making the vote.
They got one right and screwed the pooch on the other.
Not everyone works for your company tufsu. I am happy for your coworkers. Anyways since most of the people who work DT couldn't find their a$$ with a piece of toilet paper run this city I am inclined to be not in favor of any taxes(etc ) being increased. Also that was a POOR example you used when you talked about money being spent on street cars and etc. I am sure you could go to any city that has alot more going on than we do I find people against LRT, street cars and etc. That's not even the point here. I have been here far to long to watch the inept leadership squander money decades after decades on passive pocket parks, ridiculous studies and trips to other cities to learn absolutely nothing. Its time for a change, then lets talk about taxes.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on September 30, 2010, 10:43:42 AM
Anyways since most of the people who work DT couldn't find their a$$ with a piece of toilet paper run this city I am inclined to be not in favor of any taxes(etc ) being increased.
and how many of those employees do you know personally?
Fact is what we are mainly talking about is a lack of competent leadership....so maybe the top 3 people in a given department aren't good....but it is hard to apply that to everyone in the organization.
The only reason I mentioned my company is to note that the issues raised about government performance and efficiency also exist in the private sector....but since our salaries (an our internal snafus) aren't public information, we aren't looked at quite the same way.
How many us know any of them personally, what does it matter if I know them or not? I dont know Obama or George Busch either but does that mean I cant form an opinion. Once again Tufsu to the rescue.
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 30, 2010, 12:51:14 PM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on September 30, 2010, 10:43:42 AM
Anyways since most of the people who work DT couldn't find their a$$ with a piece of toilet paper run this city I am inclined to be not in favor of any taxes(etc ) being increased.
and how many of those employees do you know personally?
Fact is what we are mainly talking about is a lack of competent leadership....so maybe the top 3 people in a given department aren't good....but it is hard to apply that to everyone in the organization.
The only reason I mentioned my company is to note that the issues raised about government performance and efficiency also exist in the private sector....but since our salaries (an our internal snafus) aren't public information, we aren't looked at quite the same way.
My tax dollars are not directly paying your salary either are they? You do not provide a service to me unless I engage you correct?
uptowngirl.........it IS when tufsu's company is contracted to provide a service! Whatever company he works for is based upon contractual work, which he provides,for a paid service to either the City, State or Federal Government! There are private companies, which could retain his company's and when this happens, whatever report is generated to the payer, could have ramifications beyond what was consulted on.....side effects and the like! When they provide a contracted service to the City.......thats our money being used.....and example would be the $400K study to decide about moving the Fair to the equestrian center!
Now it all makes sense! I see said the blind man.
and as much as this pains me to say....you are correct CS
Thanks tufsu..............I do try hard!
Since no one has seen fit to show just which Councilperson voted and how.......Let me help you out! Those that voted "YES" -D. Brown, R. Brown, Corrigan, Fussel,Gaffney,Holts,Hyde,Jones,Joost,Shad and Webb. Those that voted "NO" -Bishop,Clark,Crescimbeni,Johnson,Lee,Redman and Yarborough! I don't know about you people, but I will not forget this! I cheated............I wrote it down and put this list where I can find it!
I'm new and super naive to this discussion. I have not looked at the budget so I'm just taking this out of nowhere and hoping it has something to do with this discussion.
Now is not the time to cut spending. That would be a dumb idea! All the very wealthy people follow this simple advice "Buy Low, Sell High".
Everything now is cheap, if not dirt cheap! Companies and people are desperate for work. If we have a large infrastructure project, now is a great time to build it! If we need to upgrade things, now is a great time to do so! Commuter trains? Since nobody is building them, now is a great time to buy them! Companies are desperate for business! Need a department that we never could before? Start it now! Hire people when they are willing to work for lower salaries!
Use all that money we've been saving from the "good days". Use that extra surplus cash (not the hurricane emergency fund or something similar but that extra cash earned during the boom) now! It's what smart extremely wealthy people do with their money they made during the good times! They buy when stuff is cheap and earn cash when stuff is expensive!
The only thing that would make turn this idea into a disaster is if we somehow have no money saved up and are in major debt but I'm sure we as a city can't be that dumb, right?
Quote from: CS Foltz on September 30, 2010, 07:28:53 PM
Since no one has seen fit to show just which Councilperson voted and how.......Let me help you out! Those that voted "YES" -D. Brown, R. Brown, Corrigan, Fussel,Gaffney,Holts,Hyde,Jones,Joost,Shad and Webb. Those that voted "NO" -Bishop,Clark,Crescimbeni,Johnson,Lee,Redman and Yarborough! I don't know about you people, but I will not forget this! I cheated............I wrote it down and put this list where I can find it!
Glorious Johnson for mayor, YEAH!
Quote from: sean on September 29, 2010, 08:44:39 AM
Why not make churches pay a 10th or some other fraction of their property taxes? There is an absurd number of churches in jacksonville. FBC owns almost 70 million in property downtown. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's?
thats a very strong point! Its unlawful to tax churches, so perhaps last night was a price the people of Jacksonville have to pay.
Quote from: hillary supporter on September 30, 2010, 08:18:14 PM
Glorious Johnson for mayor, YEAH!
yeah...who needs a Mayor who is willing to make the tough decisions...when you can have someone opposed to raising taxes and opposed to cutting spending!
Quote from: hillary supporter on September 30, 2010, 08:31:47 PM
Quote from: sean on September 29, 2010, 08:44:39 AM
Why not make churches pay a 10th or some other fraction of their property taxes? There is an absurd number of churches in jacksonville. FBC owns almost 70 million in property downtown. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's?
thats a very strong point! Its unlawful to tax churches, so perhaps last night was a price the people of Jacksonville have to pay.
Heard some info on the street that sort of pertains to this: FBC owns a ton of property downtown, approx 12 entire city blocks. BUT - parts of FBC are 'for-profit' and that percentage of the church DOES pay taxes. I can't verify the truth to that statement nor would I even begin to speculate of the % that is for profit, but it came from a reliable source inside the church's finance committee so I have no reason not to believe it.
The City Council meeting was indeed fascinating. I was there until 3 a.m. and back again at 11 on Wednesday.
It was just precious of Clay Yarborough to propose 14 amendments to the budget on the floor. When Jack Webb stopped him on the fourth to ask that he consolidate his amendments, bless his heart, he didn't consolidate anything.
Four hours of public hearing would try the patience of any reasonable person. The frequent demonstrations early on didn't help and Jack Webb threatened to have the room cleared.
Jon Heymann of Communities in Schools gave a resounding address asking the council not to disregard the months of commentary during the budget workshops and finance committee meetings in light of the loud and numerous calls not to increase taxes that were concentrated on Tuesday. Unfortunately, a lot of folks misinterpreted those and similar remarks to mean that comments are not welcome at a public hearing. Of course they are ... but public hearings aren't the only time to make comments.
Denise Lee spent an awful lot of time talking about those 15 firefighters. She even took a good five minutes after the vote Wednesday afternoon, when other councilmembers congratulated themselves on their fine work, to make the point again that 15 firefighters were her greatest concern. "Promises made, promises broken," yes, but what if those 15 firefighters leave Jacksonville in five or 10 years because there is no quality of life? And what of all the others who would leave? Then City Council raises the millage again just to keep up with further loss of revenue ...
We need a long-term solution with long-term vision. No more plans that solve the problems only right in front of us.