Hadn't seen this anywhere around here yet, and just came across it on jacksonville.com (courtesy of them):
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-09-28/story/solar-power-farm-launches-near-baldwin
Quote
Solar power farm launches near Baldwin
Posted: September 28, 2010 - 12:11pm
By Steve Patterson
As shafts of sunlight slipped between clouds, engineers mixed with business executives and environmentalists this morning to formally launch operation of Northeast Florida's first large solar power farm.
"This is a big day for Jacksonville. This is an exciting event," Mayor John Peyton told a crowd at the dedication of PSEG Jacksonville Solar, a 15-megawatt plant north of Baldwin off U.S. 301.
The farm's 200,000 solar panels can power up to 16,000 homes, said Diana Drysdale, the head of PSEG Solar Source, a subsidiary of New Jersey-based Public Service Enterprise Group.
"We've taken a very important step here, not just for Florida but for the whole country," Drysdale said during a ceremony where close to 100 people sat under a tent on a rain-soaked field that used to be used for cattle pasture.
PSEG has a 30-year contract to sell power to JEA, which provided land next to its Brandy Branch natural gas power plant for construction of the solar farm.
A part of the power farm began making electricity in May, but testing to show the full system is working properly won't be completed until next week.
See Jacksonville.com later today or tomorrow's Times-Union for more details.\
200,000 panels for 16,000 homes?? That doesn't seem very efficient. What is the cost of a plant that size??
Actually, it "doesn't seem very efficient" to burn coal to cool our homes.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 28, 2010, 05:20:45 PM
200,000 panels for 16,000 homes?? That doesn't seem very efficient. What is the cost of a plant that size??
It isn't efficient and I forgot the cost. The next generation of PV cells is supposed to be more efficient.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 28, 2010, 05:20:45 PM
200,000 panels for 16,000 homes?? That doesn't seem very efficient. What is the cost of a plant that size??
How much acreage is 200,000 panels going to cover?
With a 30 year lease, will this be maintained by PSEG?...With a 30 year warranty that says the upkeep won't be dumped on JEA after they fold in 4 years?
When I started hearing about 30 year leases with cell towers, i wondered what the breach of contract legalize said for THREE DECADES.....30 years is a long time to speculate.
The 75 watt panels they are using are good for at least 50 years as long as they are not physically damaged by wind, etc. No moving parts to wear out. Higher power panels have a shorter life span, but they don't know how long they will last yet. Warranty is currently 25 years from the manufacturer.
Only upkeep required is to wash the dust, dirt and bird poop off the fronts from time to time and to cut the grass and brush so that they don't shade the panels.
It's a great step forward but as other's have said, not the most effecient way to generate power. IMO, it would have been better to use that money to subsidize buisnesses in the area to provide point of use solar systems that would utilize the rooftops of already developed properties. The owners could have then put up a good chunk of the money for the costs as well thereby offsetting the overall costs and stretching the money further. It would also eliminate the utility maintenance costs by passing them onto the owner. The user would still have a JEA connection to make up the difference in whatever the solar panels can't produce at the time but the JEA rates could be locked in for a longer term as an incentive to the customer.
Jason, unfortunately JEA only pays the standard rate to residents or businesses who install solar systems and they will only apply the KWH over those used to the next month's bill.
If they would structure something for all property owners similar to the deal they gave the solar farm or follow the European (and Gainesville, Florida) model and use a "feed-in-tariff" you would quickly see every flat roof on every big box store and office park in Duval county covered with solar panels.
With a feed-in-tariff the utility contracts to buy all the solar power you can produce at a fixed, higher rate for twenty or thirty years. With this fixed, an owner can calculate the return on investment and, in these low interest rate times, actually borrow the money necessary to pay for the system. Every chicken house and warehouse in Germany is covered in solar panels due to this system and Germany isn't usually regarded as a place with a lot of sun.
Gainesville Regional Utilities is the first in the US to go to FIT and all of the other utilities including JEA are watching them closely.
I've got twenty thousand square feet of flat roof that I would love to cover with panels.
I agree.
I'm sure JEA is reluctant to enact the FIT model because of their current rate structure. They are still one of the lowest priced electric utilities in the state. Hopefully they will start to catch on and incentivise buisness owners versus trying to generate the power themselves using massive tracts of land and costly infrastructure.
Our current green technologies are much more suited for point-of-use applications. Why not capitalize on this?
I'm with these guys^^^
I'm also in favor of individual PV systems on buildings. However the next generation of PV cells will be more efficient and give more power per sq ft supposedly for less cost. I'll wait on that last one.
Just remember though if you have a house with PV system hooked to the grid current regulations now require your system to go down when the grid goes down.
Also JEA settles up the PV generated kwh balance annually not monthly.
Overstreet is right about grid-tied PV systems going down when the grid goes down. It is a safety measure so that AC power isn't going into the grid when the linemen are trying to repair it.
I've even tried fooling the inverter system by back feeding with a true sine wave generator, but the inverter software is too smart and refused to bring up the PV system.
On the other hand, being in the middle of Riverside, we haven't had the grid go down in over 5 years and it didn't go down in 2004 when we had four hurricanes go over us.
The new generation of PV cells, right now, gives you to option of more efficiency or lower cost. They haven't managed to combine both yet, but that will probably come in the future.
For a homeowner or business building owner right now the easiest and cheapest way to reduce your electric bills is to paint your roof white and install a solar hot water heater. One of the best open loop hot water systems on the market is actually manufactured right here in Jacksonville, in North Riverside. You can even "buy local"!
Quote from: Jason on September 29, 2010, 02:14:57 PM
It's a great step forward but as other's have said, not the most effecient way to generate power. IMO, it would have been better to use that money to subsidize buisnesses in the area to provide point of use solar systems that would utilize the rooftops of already developed properties. The owners could have then put up a good chunk of the money for the costs as well thereby offsetting the overall costs and stretching the money further. It would also eliminate the utility maintenance costs by passing them onto the owner. The user would still have a JEA connection to make up the difference in whatever the solar panels can't produce at the time but the JEA rates could be locked in for a longer term as an incentive to the customer.
Well naturally, but initiatives like that would cause JEA to lose revenue and control. Can't have that...
And since the technology is getting better that simply means that households will be able to produce a larger percentage of their own consumption using the limited roof area they have thereby relying less on the utility connection.
And the issues with the PV systems potentially backfeeding the grid during downtime can be solved with some programming or some sort of electronic "backflow preventer". One of the greatest benefits of site generated power is the ability to run independent of the grid especially during natural disasters such as hurricanes. If your system is dead because JEA is down you haven't really gained much.
These issues are all solvable. Just need some innovative and progressive thinking on JEA's end.
QuoteWell naturally, but initiatives like that would cause JEA to lose revenue and control. Can't have that...
That's the beauty of having a publicly owned utility... we the people have a say in what they do and how they operate.
Quote from: Jason on September 29, 2010, 04:50:58 PM
I agree.
I'm sure JEA is reluctant to enact the FIT model because of their current rate structure. They are still one of the lowest priced electric utilities in the state. Hopefully they will start to catch on and incentivise buisness owners versus trying to generate the power themselves using massive tracts of land and costly infrastructure.
I know they keep claiming that, but in reality it's not so. By the time you add in all of JEA's numerous fees, the fuel surcharges, etc., they wind up being higher than what we pay FP&L for the other house down south. Those claims rely on comparing one utility's base rates to another's, and in JEA's case this kind of comparison is completely meaningless since their fuel surcharges and various fees now account for a big chunk of each bill. I suspect if you compared the total amount of JEA customers' bills to other utilities, they are probably one of the highest in the state, not the lowest.
Quote from: Jason on September 30, 2010, 08:52:24 AM
QuoteWell naturally, but initiatives like that would cause JEA to lose revenue and control. Can't have that...
That's the beauty of having a publicly owned utility... we the people have a say in what they do and how they operate.
Well yes, I am aware that's how it's
supposed to work. But that's not how it actually
does work.
Compare my average monthly bill to your's.
1,350 sf house in Saint Augustine with a new highly effecient AC, modern construction, well insulated, 9 years old. I pay about $170 a month to FPL. Over $200 during a peak month.
Quote from: Jason on September 30, 2010, 08:59:32 AM
Compare my average monthly bill to your's.
1,350 sf house in Saint Augustine with a new highly effecient AC, modern construction, well insulated, 9 years old. I pay about $170 a month to FPL. Over $200 during a peak month.
You should feel real lucky you don't have JEA...
My smallish 2br pad in Riverside with 1 ac unit, no laundry equipment, and updated windows is normally $200-$300. During really hot months, it's $300+. All the neighbors in the building and most JEA customers you talk to have identical complaints with JEA, their billing is mind-boggling. I have a good friend with a 1-bedroom pad in Springfield with 1 ac unit, updated windows & insulation, and his bill is $300+ a month.
By comparison, my family's house in Daytona Beach is with FP&L and it's about 7k square feet, 6 a/c units, automatic lighting and pool filtration, detached poolhouse with a/c, air conditioned garages, laundry room, and the FP&L bill is usually <$400. The difference is that JEA tacks on a bunch of user fees, fuel surcharges, storm fees, they even pass along the COJ franchise fee! You name it they have a fee for it, and when it's finally tallied up a big chunk of your bill is nothing but B.S.
I get annoyed when people are always saying JEA has the lowest rates per KWH in the state, because that's a total scam. The base rate may be O.K., but after you add in all the extra crap they charge you they are, IMO, the most expensive major utility in the state that I've dealt with (and I've used almost all of them living in different places).
And while I'm on the topic, let me also say I'm infuriated every time I read the news and they're disconnecting power to some 100-year old woman's house when she was late with her bill because she had been in the hospital. Then they demanded a $1k deposit to turn her power back on, plus a reconnection fee. A church finally raised the money for her.
There is one story or another like that about JEA pretty much constantly. They certainly don't work for us taxpayers.
On my current electric bill, the amount is $214.54 for 1763 KWh, which equals a true effective rate of $.1217/KWh. JEA publicly discloses a base rate of $.03786/KWh. The true effective rate is nearly 400% higher than the "advertised" rate per KWh, when you add in all the fees and add-ons.
Well Chris, I'd say you have aducated me! I'll shut my mouth about JEA's rates. :)
Apparently a LOT has changes since I lived in Duval almost 7 years ago. My bill was in the $90-$120 range for my 2 bed, 2 bath apartment off of Powers Ave.
Also depends on how cold you keep your house in the summer months (i.e., March-December) too.
I've got a 3-story townhouse @ 2100+ sq ft and our JEA bill is hardly ever above $200.
You got me there, I keep it at 70 all year. That certainly takes power when it's hot out. But still, I understand that when I crank my a/c down, I'm going to have to pay for that. I'm certainly not objecting to that. It just bugs me that if you look at the actual KWh used compared to other utility companies, JEA's rates aren't as low as they lead you to believe.
Understood and agreed.
One of the hardest things for me to adjust to was taking my usual 72 and bumping it up to 76-77 because the fiancee is so cold-natured.
(shrug) Not so bad now that I'm used to it. But the higher thermostat setting certainly helps the usage (and the budget!).
They also base their credit rate for those of us who are producing electricity for them on their artificially low base rate, not on the rate with all the fees.
70 degrees! Brrrrrr! Chris, you need to lose more weight or take off more clothes! ;D
WE are the "Sunshine State" for God's sake. Florida should be one of the world leaders in the development and application of solar energy
in residential and commercial use. It has been said if every home in Florida had a 400sq foot solar array on their roofs we could cut the amount of coal, gas and other fuels burned to cool our homes in the summer by 30-40%. And don't forget, any power created but not used turns your meter backward, effectively paying you. Add it up over 20-30 years and the value would be in the hundreds of billions of dollars.
The building codes in the State of Hawaii now require a solar water heater on all new construction.
If all of the houses in Florida had solar water heaters on them, that alone would reduce our energy consumption by 20-30%. Besides structural standards, our building codes already require water heaters, heat and air conditioners. Should be no big deal to add another appliance.
What about tankless water heaters?
Does anyone have one? Do they work as well as they're advertised? Is there a substantial savings on utilities with one in place?
Can they be powered with/by rooftop solar panels?
(Kind of off-topic, I know... just curious...)
Doctor, Tankless water heaters are WAY more efficient than electric or other gas water heaters, but because of TECO's really high natural gas prices and hateful minimum monthly charges you have to use a lot of hot water to make them worth their price. Got babies or teenagers they are probably worth it.
It takes a special model to use "pre-heated" water i.e. water that comes from a solar water heater. Most of regular tankless heaters work on water flow sensors, not temperature sensors which are slower to react.
There are some new "heat pump" hot water heaters now made by a couple of the big manufacturers that might be worth looking at now. For most uses they might equal the energy savings of the tankless gas models. They are more efficient and more expensive than regular hot water heaters, probably have a longer life span, but I've never seen them compared with tankless models. If you don't have natural gas at your house they are probably a good choice and can certainly take the pre-heated water from a solar hot water panel since they are thermostatically controlled.
Thanks!!
http://www.news4jax.com/news/25230734/detail.html
Nice. Another 9% rate hike by JEA in the middle of the recession. I think everyone remembers them from 5+ years ago as being inexpensive but that is certainly no longer the case. The most interesting part of the article is that their average customer bill is a whopping $231/mo. That's just the average, so a full half of us pay more.
QuoteSpokeswoman Gerri Boyce said the JEA is not making a profit, but putting the money back into the utility.
"We are seeing regulations go up that are more expensive. We are seeing fuel go up. And we are seeing the cost of construction go up," Boyce said. "All of these things factor in."
Is it safe to assume some of this is the cost of going Green?
Quote from: Dog Walker on September 30, 2010, 11:27:43 AM
Doctor, Tankless water heaters are WAY more efficient than electric or other gas water heaters, but because of TECO's really high natural gas prices and hateful minimum monthly charges you have to use a lot of hot water to make them worth their price. Got babies or teenagers they are probably worth it.
Exactly--- i have a tankless natural gas teco supplied water heater. $20 mim fee discusting!
i have a propane powered water gas heater in my off grid home in Croatia..... just pennies!
i also have 3 75 watts solar panels for my 1000kwh 24 volt system. its great and all but limitations are there.
Our refrigeration is 24 volt, its the power sucker, otherwise we,d run smooth sailing with hd satellite tv, internet remote access, water pump. we resolved our problem with 24 volt 30 amp battery charger ( brought from USA) And yamaha 2400 inverted generator, running 2 hrs a night. Our cost was significant, but prices of technology are dropping fast. Also, geography of Croatia allows life w/o air conditioning--- not possible today with solar power. 24 volt ceiling fans actually very comfortable all day and night.
Not to rain on everyone's parade, but my bill is $120-$130 in the summer months, <$90 in the winter. 1500 square ft 2 bedroom 2 bath apt.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 01, 2010, 10:21:09 AM
Not to rain on everyone's parade, but my bill is $120-$130 in the summer months, <$90 in the winter. 1500 square ft 2 bedroom 2 bath apt.
Not raining on my parade, more like you're raining on JEA's. Their own published figures indicate their average customer is billed $231/mo, and averages being what they are, that would mean half of Jacksonville pays more than $231/mo. I'm sure they're missing the extra revenue off you, but that certainly doesn't change anything for the half of Jacksonville that JEA already acknowledged pays double what you do.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Esolar_13.jpg/800px-Esolar_13.jpg)
I have to say this design is by far one of the most interesting. I am not sure how much more efficient it is than solar panels but its pretty cool to read about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_SunTower
I also saw a special on its construction, pretty cool tech.
JC, the picture above is of a concentrated solar thermal plant. There are a couple of different designs. They concentrate the sun's energy to heat a fluid, usually oil. that boils water to turn a steam turbine. They can produce a LOT of electricity in dry, hot climates with few clouds. America's southwest deserts, Spain, North Africa, etc. Solar panels are better suited to point-of-us or distributed generation situations than for centralized power plant operations.
They are usually paired with natural gas powered boilers to run the steam turbines at night or during cloudy weather to solve the energy storage problem.
Solar thermal plants are a good option in certain areas and can even be used by big industrial plants who use a lot of steam or electricity. Think an aluminum smelter near a bauxite mine in the desert.
Can you imagine what would happen to a bird that flew too near the target tower? Phittt! Ashes.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 01, 2010, 10:21:09 AM
Not to rain on everyone's parade, but my bill is $120-$130 in the summer months, <$90 in the winter. 1500 square ft 2 bedroom 2 bath apt.
Thats awesome! Are you using other energy sources or just electricity?
Apartments frequently have lower electric bills because of the other apartments, above, below and beside them so they have lower heat and cold loads.
there are a LOT of variables. Asphalt parking lot next to you? My mistake..cutting all your shade tree growth out at the stupid request of the Homeowners insurance company? No attic ventilation?..the list goes on, but I agree with the rates being screwy compared to other places I visit or knowing others power bill figures.(FPL..TECO)
Back a few years ago this was organized crime behavior.
EXTORTION,or PROTECTION fees were locally assessed and enforced(collected). now it's found a way legally to pass as "Fee's, late fines, or reconnection fee's. The DMV is behaving similarly right now.
I kind of think that the old model of using a power plant to provide electricity to multiple locations is kind of, shall we say, yesterday. Why do we need concentrated power plants at all? Seems like we could reduce the price of copper dramatically if homes produced their own power. The model could work sort of like this.
The federal government loans homeowners the money to take their house off the grid. It could start in any city, an army of workers removing old power lines and poles while another army installs the needed equipment to make each home self sufficient. The government could recoup the money by charging what individuals paid for their conventional electricity. This would create a ton of jobs and would all but eliminate the need for fossil fuels... I realize I am oversimplifying but whatevs.
QuoteSeems like we could reduce the price of copper dramatically if homes produced their own power.
Power transmission lines are made of aluminum.
Love the idea, but how would you get power at night? Batteries? Oh the price and pollution of lead!
Totally grid independent would be great. We could do it easily by providing each house with a generator big enough to power that house. Ta Da! Done. BUT, why less efficient than a central power station. Way more pollution of all kinds. Much more expensive in every way.
If the price of solar PV cells comes way down then another model might be to cover every available roof and surface with solar cells, feed the power into the grid to a central station where the excess could be stored (flywheels, compressed air, pump water up hill, make hydrogen, whatever) to be returned to us at night when the sun don't shine.
Let's turn JEA into a battery! I'll vote for that!
Quote from: Dog Walker on October 03, 2010, 12:56:47 PM
QuoteSeems like we could reduce the price of copper dramatically if homes produced their own power.
Power transmission lines are made of aluminum.
Love the idea, but how would you get power at night? Batteries? Oh the price and pollution of lead!
Totally grid independent would be great. We could do it easily by providing each house with a generator big enough to power that house. Ta Da! Done. BUT, why less efficient than a central power station. Way more pollution of all kinds. Much more expensive in every way.
If the price of solar PV cells comes way down then another model might be to cover every available roof and surface with solar cells, feed the power into the grid to a central station where the excess could be stored (flywheels, compressed air, pump water up hill, make hydrogen, whatever) to be returned to us at night when the sun don't shine.
Let's turn JEA into a battery! I'll vote for that!
Yeah, its easy to poke holes in the two paragraphs I typed but whats lacking in your critique is the imagination that put a man on the moon, split an atom, cracked the genetic code, smashed particles, etc, you get the point....
"where there is a will there is a way!"
J.C., I couldn't agree with you more. With only a tiny fraction of the subsidies we spend on developing fossil fuel resources, we could indeed change our whole energy generation and consumption methods. There are promising technologies out there that are severely underfunded.
All of my hot water and over half of my electricity comes from the sun already and the minute technology comes along that lets me go complete off-grid and keep my air-conditioners, I'm there! And I live in the second oldest neighborhood in the city and never suffer from power outages.
Unfortunately, it is very expensive to do this. I have the resources, but without a redirection of all of the tax breaks and direct aid that goes to the oil and coal industries, most people don't. We don't have to spend any more money than we are now, just redirect what we are already spending.
DW, I am looking at solar systems. Any advice?
Quote from: JC on October 02, 2010, 08:35:59 PM........The federal government loans homeowners the money to take their house off the grid. It could start in any city, an army of workers removing old power lines and poles while another army installs the needed equipment to make each home self sufficient. The government could recoup the money by charging what individuals paid for their conventional electricity. This would create a ton of jobs and would all but eliminate the need for fossil fuels... I realize I am oversimplifying but whatevs. .............
The feds are.......er were.....paying incentives to install PV systems on the grid to your house. You still need the transmissin lines to cover non-sunny times, summer and winter months. Also neighborhoods like mine are mostly covered by trees. PV won't work in the shade. More PV systems would give added capacity and lower the municipal needs to expand current systems. PV systems are not efficient enough yet for off grid to be practical in Florida. Unless you forgo airconditioning and have "traditional" heating, ie wood stove. The problem is that battery systems aren't that efficient either. That and PV systems run at a steady state. Any starting surge voltage spike like the ac compressor kicking on cause it to take power off the grid or the battery system. A battery system large enough for AC would be impractable for the standard residential structure or budget. Then too since the PV system that struggles covering the load in the day time won't be charging the batteries for the night time operations.
Quote from: NotNow on October 03, 2010, 08:49:49 PM
DW, I am looking at solar systems. Any advice?
The biggest bang for the buck, the lowest hanging fruit, no brainer, etc. in solar is first put in a solar hot water system. I think JEA still has a rebate program that pays about $800 off the price and I also think that there is a Federal tax rebate available. A lot of this stuff has changed in the past couple of years but any of the solar contractors will have the information.
I have an "open loop" system made by a company right here in Riverside, Thermal Conversion Technologies (?) They are on Copeland St. just north of McCoys Creek. Five years ago the cost was $2800 including installation an a conventional 40 gallon electric water heater, drain down plumbing, etc. It's a system that heats and stores 40 gallons of water within the collector. Different design than most and no external tank so it is very low profile on the roof.
Open loop system brings in water from the meter directly to a solar panel for heating then to a water heater for storage as you use hot water in the house. There are no pumps, switches, etc. in an open loop system. We are far enough south not to have to worry about the collector freezing as it would take a couple of days of below freezing temperatures and no sun.
Downside of open loop is limited capacity. We are two people, dishwasher, washing machine and the basic 40 gallon system does just fine for us unless we get two days in a row of no sun. Then we have to turn the electric on for a little while. We turned the electric unit off in March and haven't touched it since. I think if you had teenagers or lots of baby laundry a bigger system or a "closed loop" system might be required.
JEA says that 20-30% of the average household's electricity usage is for heating water. Since ours was new construction we didn't have any before and after comparison to make. Payback on a solar water heater should be about 6-9 years.
If my aging memory is working correctly the name of the company that did our installation was Sunpower.
PV systems are EXPENSIVE! The state rebate program is out of money so the $20,000 rebate is no longer available. Payback on a PV system right now is 12-18 years AFTER the rebate although as fast as JEA is raising rates it is getting shorter and shorter. We have 2000 sq/ft. of HVAC space. Highest summertime bill was $110. Lowest wintertime bill was $21.00. I estimate that we are covering about half of our usage with a 5KW PV system and we aren't "camping out" and have big screen plasma TV which is an energy hog and use an electric clothes dryer.
Can't recommend PV systems unless you have the money to invest. Don't borrow the money to install a system. With CD and money market rates where they are right now my rate of return on the PV system is actually higher than those investment options.
I am sure the prices on PV systems will come down in the next few years and if the government would divert some of the money they give to the fossil fuel industry to PV systems then you might really see things get affordable.
Also, don't over look some of the other intangible returns on solar systems. Every time I take a nice hot shower I get a little thrill of smugness and revenge that I didn't have to pay JEA to make my water hot and I get the same nice little smugness reward every time I pay my JEA bill.