Metro Jacksonville

..too bad it's in South Florida.  Anyway, I found this quote from the article pretty funny.

QuoteThere are two bus options, but both would take twice as much time to travel between Miami and Jupiter. One, called bus rapid transit, would use buses that resemble rail cars and run them in a new roadway built next to the tracks for exclusive use by buses. The other bus option, the cheapest by far among the four being considered, would rely on buses using local streets that parallel the tracks, like U.S. 1, Andrews Avenue or Dixie Highway.

The company that owns the FEC opposes building a road for buses along the tracks because it would limit expansion for freight service and generate less robust economic development around stops compared to passenger rail stations.

As many as 192 passenger trains a day could be added to the FEC, although not all of them would travel the entire length of the corridor. They would run every 15 minutes at rush hour and every half hour the rest of the day. Tri-Rail offers 50 trains a day on weekdays but only a limited number run every 20 minutes at rush hour.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/broward/fl-fec-passenger-rail-20100915,0,1372868.story

This is the same Jacksonville-based company that owns the rail line paralleling Philips.  I wonder which one would the prefer in Jax.  BRT on Philips or commuter rail along their corridor running past all the potential TOD property they own?

Get with the program Jax!

lake..........I am beginning to believe it is a lost cause! We have not done enough studies or imported enough consultants! Not to mention according to JTA.........."BRT is better than rail and cheaper"! What a crock of excrement!

Could we get Mica to make a comment on Rail vs. BRT for Jax.  The whole we are going with BRT because that is what we were working on before we realized rail was possible is an attitude that needs to be changed at the JTA.

JeffreyS.........Mica is more concerned about getting his butt re-elected! Attitude at JTA needs to change beyond doubt, but until the upper layer is given their walking papers, the attitude won't change!

Well y'all remember what the JTA "official" said to MJ about all of this...

"Rail is rail."

OCKLAWAHA

well you should all know that FDOT District 4 is spending up to $20 million (you heard me) on the necessary studies....are you all up for that here?

oh..and btw...the consultant that is leading the effort....local grown RS&H

How much has JTA spent on BRT studies over the last decade?

lake..........probably enough to build both BRT and Rail.................thats just my humble opinion!

Far less than that....the studies they are doing right now are $300,000 each....and the studies for the former BRT plan were not more than $3 million.

And so far they have spent about $3 million for design and $9 million for construction

Also, Miami, Broward, Orlando, and Tampa are doing BRT too....the differencefor Jax  (so far) is that they are also doing rail

So about $4-5 million for a bus ride on Philips, Roosevelt and I-95 north... wow, if this is the best we can do I want my money back!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 17, 2010, 08:23:55 AM
Far less than that....the studies they are doing right now are $300,000 each....and the studies for the former BRT plan were not more than $3 million.

And so far they have spent about $3 million for design and $9 million for construction

Also, Miami, Broward, Orlando, and Tampa are doing BRT too....the differencefor Jax  (so far) is that they are also doing rail

So they spent at least $3MM just to decide whether or not to add a couple extra buses with "BRT" painted on the side of them in a lane with "BUS" painted on it? And you have no problem with that? This is like JEA paying a consultant $90k/yr to run their board meetings. At what point when we're paying all these salaries do you have to expect that things are within their job description and they shouldn't need to hire 14 outside consultants to show them where the toilet paper is in the office bathroom?

I would probably be horrified (as the rest of you would) if we actually knew how much money is spent on these consultants and studies. The real laugh track about it is that none of them accomplish anything here in Jacksontucky, we all know their minds are made up and they're going to do it anyway no matter how asinine the idea is, so we should at least save the consulting fees.

Also keep in mind that the South Florida proposal covers three counties. Also, are those other cities proposing BRT to parallel their proposed rail or will they connect rail to destinations not adjacent to tracks?

lake.........maybe tufsu would know! From what I have seen to this point, the most asinine,least cost effective and concrete sucking way they can go...........thats the way JTA will wobble!

Quote from: thelakelander on September 17, 2010, 11:17:59 AM
Also keep in mind that the South Florida proposal covers three counties. Also, are those other cities proposing BRT to parallel their proposed rail or will they connect rail to destinations not adjacent to tracks?

in at least one case (Tampa) yes...BRT down Nebraska will be implemented next year...and light rail usng either I-275, 30th St, or the CSX tracks could be in place by 2017

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 17, 2010, 09:43:10 AM
we all know their minds are made up and they're going to do it anyway no matter how asinine the idea is, so we should at least save the consulting fees.

Feel free to submit a proposal yourself when an RFP or RFQ is released

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 17, 2010, 11:29:34 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 17, 2010, 11:17:59 AM
Also keep in mind that the South Florida proposal covers three counties. Also, are those other cities proposing BRT to parallel their proposed rail or will they connect rail to destinations not adjacent to tracks?

in at least one case (Tampa) yes...BRT down Nebraska will be implemented next year...and light rail usng either I-275, 30th St, or the CSX tracks could be in place by 2017

Yes, Nebraska Avenue parallels Tampa's desired N/S LRT route along CSX's ROW.  However, these corridors are 1.5 miles apart.  On the other hand, the distance between the FEC and Philips Highway is 500 feet.  Given this, I'd make the claim that Tampa's modes would actually complement each other because the serve completely different urban neighborhoods along most of their corridors.  Nobody is going to walk 1.5 miles to get to LRT.

Tampa's proposed LRT
(http://www.freewebs.com/lightrailjacksonville/railmaplarge1%20Tampa%20LRT%20regional%20Plan.jpg)

Tampa's proposed BRT
(http://www.hartline.org/departments/marketing/brt/hdr_brt_map_lg.jpg)

Tufsu1, what is the estimated capital cost of Tampa's Nebraska Avenue BRT line?  Is this being funded locally or through the FTA?  Not that it really matters but it seems like this proposal has moved at a much more rapid pace than plans being discussed locally.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 18, 2010, 02:50:08 PM
Tufsu1, what is the estimated capital cost of Tampa's Nebraska Avenue BRT line?  Is this being funded locally or through the FTA?  Not that it really matters but it seems like this proposal has moved at a much more rapid pace than plans being discussed locally.

Lake, in the last 40-50 years Jacksonville has always been slower then the other parts of the state. I really can't put a finger on why except to say perhaps it is more important to look out for the good-ol-boys then ones city. We have had the misfortune of electing "RICK SCOTT" in every election and virtually every city office for decades and you can see where it got us. When I first came to JAX (too small to remember anything else) my father honestly thought WE would be about where Miami, Orlando or Tampa are today. While dad bordered on genius he couldn't have seen the banditry that would sack this city and land us in the backwater traditionally reserved for Mobile, Biloxi, and Selma. He found out pretty fast that his civil rights view point was going to be a tough sell here and THAT as a Navy Exchange commander. If Walt Disney were alive today and hung tight on putting his world in Jacksonville, I predict that we'd still be studying the proposal.

Back when I was a city councilman in a tiny prairie town in the great state of Oklahoma I discovered that our town fathers had paved every municipal road in the town limits back in the depression era to avoid the cost of constant grading... Jacksonville did this too, in 1985! "Go figure," as the Okies would say. Stillwater HOME OF OKLAHOMA STATE UNIVERSITY (THE university of Oklahoma!) has better mass transit then we do and it's population is 40,000 or about the same as Titusville.

So what is it? What is that odd factor that seems to have landed Jacksonville on stupid for so many years? God knows I love this city but maybe it's for the same reasons I love the Confederacy and the history of Japan from 1938-1945.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on September 18, 2010, 02:50:08 PM
Tufsu1, what is the estimated capital cost of Tampa's Nebraska Avenue BRT line?  Is this being funded locally or through the FTA?  Not that it really matters but it seems like this proposal has moved at a much more rapid pace than plans being discussed locally.

I have the info. and will look it up on Monday ($42 million comes to mind)....from what I understand, HART is funding the north-south BRT with through issuance of bonds...but is hoping to get FTA $ for the east-west line (along Hillsborough Ave).

btw...the rail line alignment is not set yet (sadly)...most likely it will follow the CSX tracks or 30th St...but if it goes along I-275, it will be much closer to the Nebraska BRT line

It may be an option, but I suspect its a distant 3rd with BRT roughly a block away.  If they actually go with I-275, they'll be in the same situation we face with Philips Highway and will continue to take a back seat to Orlando.  They've been set on that CSX corridor for years.  My guess is I-275 and 30th Street are being considered in the event that CSX gives them the middle finger.

they are studying each because that is what is required in the Federal Alternatives Analysis Study...but for some reason, HART has delayed decision on the preferred alignment for that corridor (as well as the west line to the Airport).

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 18, 2010, 10:07:46 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 18, 2010, 02:50:08 PM
Tufsu1, what is the estimated capital cost of Tampa's Nebraska Avenue BRT line?  Is this being funded locally or through the FTA?  Not that it really matters but it seems like this proposal has moved at a much more rapid pace than plans being discussed locally.

($42 million comes to mind)....from what I understand, HART is funding the north-south BRT with through issuance of bonds...but is hoping to get FTA $ for the east-west line (along Hillsborough Ave).

btw...the rail line alignment is not set yet (sadly)...most likely it will follow the CSX tracks or 30th St...but if it goes along I-275, it will be much closer to the Nebraska BRT line

This BRT system is being developed on the poison ground where CUTR has laced the waters with such golden quips as "BRT actually has a higher capacity then rail based on 2 second headways..." (2 seconds? Man those idiots must bail off those buses pretty damn fast!) Not to mention sucking off the tit of the taxpayers while convincing Tallahassee that all highways are good and all rail is bad. PLEASE, Who lives on I-275? While Tampa moves out into the cesspool of all CUTR ideas, the old Tampa Northern - nee CSX - nee Seaboard Coast Line - nee Seaboard Airline Railroad rots away, hacked into two pieces in a splendid little act of railroad rationalization.

The goal of such rationalization to may have been keep as much of freight business online as possible while severing any link that might be of some use for future passengers. Intentional or not the remaining convoluted freight lines prove it was largely achieved throughout the state. Freight doesn't complain about round-about routes or poorly maintained SLOW track.

Had we not been so damn stupid Florida would have bought up some 500 miles or so of now vanished railroads and rail banked them for future use. That Tampa Northern line? The map of the proposed light rail line shows the new system built right alongside the old mainline all the way to station 11 where the LRT jogs east and the TN continues north. The sad part of this is there is a plan for standard commuter rail (NOT light-rail) from Tampa Union Station to Lakeland, Bradenton and on the TN to Brooksville. The track survives to a point about half way between Brooksville and Inverness and from there to just south of Dunnellon they allowed the CSX to abandon the line. Beyond Dunnellon this track passes through Rainbow Springs - Williston - Archer - Alachua - Starke - Baldwin - Jacksonville...  Interesting? Well before the network was butchered there was a line from Archer to Gainesville directly, and another ran from Gainesville to Alachua and north through Worthington Springs - Lake Butler - Raiford - Baldwin - Jacksonville of which only the Gainesville - Alachua segment still exist. So rather then a lesson in Florida geography, just think of a "West Coast Route" from Jacksonville to Tampa, more or less along the line of a now dead turnpike all for the price of some track work and replacing some 40 miles m/l of track on pre-existing roadbed. Betcha CUTR would have all kinds of reasons why that would be a bad investment and I bet Rick Scott would agree!

OCKLAWAHA

with all due respect, 'lakelander'_ "Nobody is going to walk 1.5 miles to access LRT!?''
that's not encouraging.
I understand this nation is a fat one and in many ways too lazy and spoiled now for years. check that-make it  generations.
largely unappreciative, having taken for granted the related and perceived freedoms associated with previously inexpensive fuels etc and placing our glutted roads in need of mass diets, so as to make room for safe walking within our 'hoods and entire communities.

However, given the current available info, most of us will be forced to walk a much greater distance to reach the few stations proposed.

How can I - an average citizen - find the pertinent details related to the JTA's plans for the future of Shirley Avenue at Jersey Street along Blanding, north of SanJuanAve?

I am an advocate for smart planning and intelligent cohesive design implentation for such an earthshaking endeavor, but remain highly concerned that we - the general public - will continue to see the nasty waste of earnings and taxes in favor of the "founders"' descendants' ever growing egos.

^Your transit system will fail if most people are forced to walk 1.5 miles in the Florida sun or rain  to use it.  The key is to have a complementing local bus system that connects various destinations and neighborhoods with your rail spine.

whether rail or bus, the normal walkable stop distance is 1/4 to 1/3 of a mile...and some places, like Gainesville, are really stressing a 1/8 mile radius

ok...looked it up...Hillsborough County Commission authorized $40 million in bonds for the north-south BRT line, several park & ride stations, transit signal priority installation in key places throughout the county, and prelim. design of the east-west line.

based on this my guess is that approx. $25 million of the bonds are being used for the north-south line (not sure if HART has other revenue sources for the project).  

So they basically taxed themselves to do this? Makes me wonder why.............never mind I know why! JTA is a bunch of bovines! Too used to feeding at the Federal trough and have no plan b or other options!

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 19, 2010, 01:28:38 PM
So they basically taxed themselves to do this? Makes me wonder why.............never mind I know why! JTA is a bunch of bovines! Too used to feeding at the Federal trough and have no plan b or other options!

DING DING DING we have a winner cue the confetti.

yes yes that's IT! it IS a spine. Our rail lines aren't reminders of days gone by- they ARE our backbone!

Exactly! That JTA keeps bringing up buses as the "same thing only cheaper" reminds me of a famous clown act...


Actually the BRT and EXPRESS COACH network could easily be what the railroad would term as "secondaries."
While Streetcar and Skyway would be "primaries," Commuter Rail is "The Spine Line". Silly as it seems this is really quite important, like mission statements the hierarchy should dictate where the money flows most freely, where the biggest and best will operate, as well as the fast and the specialized. Neighborhood circulators and regular transit buses function much like the terminal companies of old tying everything together like strings in a tennis racket. NETWORK! Plan to work and work the plan, and meanwhile quit the danged dancing, deceit and dumbness.

This system of things is what LAKE, TUFSU, and Myself would call the "Thick lines and thin lines..."

OCKLAWAHA

Gentlemen...........I concur and then some! Let me throw a log on the fire..........has anyone considered that this is a deliberate effort to muddy the waters? I mean, JTA is deliberately taking this path because of people behind the scenes manipulating things in their favor? I do not mean to sound like a "Conspiracy Theorist" but the more I think about and look at this situation.......this really makes me wonder if these Bovines can actually be this hardheaded and wear blinders? I mean WTF? Basic transit planning calls for "Spines and Feeders" and for something or someone to continue to push...........something like BRT and plan on it for a Spine is either hardheaded beyond belief, stupid or has another agenda.............even someone like myself sees this but the so-called professionals do not? Something is just not right here!

I think you are giving JTA way too much credit

The logical principle called "Occam's Razor" says that the simplest explanation that fits all the facts is most likely to be the correct one.

Given the choice between stupidity and conspiracy at JTA, which do you think is the most likely explanation?

Gentlemen...........I am torn between the two options! The latter just kinda leapt out, from the dusty attic, but that possibility did cross my mind! Either of the two does not bode well for any  of us! stephen......the more I think about it, you might be more closer to right than I am but still!!

A stupidly executed conspiracy might just fit perfectly.  Nah!  Just too non-linear. 

Oh it's a stupidly executed conspiracy alright. JTA cuts its nose off to spite its face routinely.