Metro Jacksonville

It just annoys me to see JTA moving forward with the BRT. I want to see what form of transportation -YOU- think is more vital for the city of Jacksonville and surronding counties. Perhaps if BRT is really a more viable to you guys, I will know but personally I happen to believe that BRT is nothing but a longer bus that only benefits the Southside (and doesnt benefit it much), and that a commuter rail is the way to go ;)

If they did commuter rail and then built BRT to support and feed it I could get on board.
Apparently the JTA needs someone to explain (again) the logical order of operations.

Now: Commuter rail line from Orange park/ Flemming Island u turn in Downtown to South side/ Avenues area. Amtrak expanded services from downtown to Miami.

Very soon: Streetcar from Avondale, Five Points and Landing. Brt (I know I know) on JTB from commuter rail to southpoint/St. Luke's, Tinseltown/ Gate Parkway, SJTC/ UNF, Mayo Clinic/ Allstate and Beaches.

Not far off: Beaches streetcar on 3rd, Skyway expansion to San Marco/ E district/ Sports complex, Streetcar to 17 at San Juan. Streetcar/ BRT from Union street to Regency Mall, Commuter rail/ LRT from Airport to Gateway, Shands, Springfield, Downtown and Edward Waters.

Long Term: Commuter rail expanded to Savanna, St. Augustine, Palm Coast, Green Cove Springs, Palatka, Macclenny.  Amtrak to Gainsville, Tallahassee and New Orleans.  HSR to SEHSR and maybe Florida's HSR.  In fill with more Streetcar.

Obviously commuter rail, it is the premier regional transit option. BRT is not planned as a regional system. Commuter Rail will be the spine of the system. Other modes will feed it and compliment it. 

Quote from: fsujax on September 14, 2010, 10:45:49 AM
Obviously commuter rail, it is the premier regional transit option. BRT is not planned as a regional system. Commuter Rail will be the spine of the system. Other modes will feed it and compliment it. 

Then why waste our money with BRT lines that mirror the rail lines?

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 14, 2010, 10:47:43 AM

Quote from: fsujax on September 14, 2010, 10:45:49 AM
Obviously commuter rail, it is the premier regional transit option. BRT is not planned as a regional system. Commuter Rail will be the spine of the system. Other modes will feed it and compliment it. 

Then why waste our money with BRT lines that mirror the rail lines?

Because it's JTA of course!

Quote from: Doctor_K on September 14, 2010, 10:56:32 AM

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 14, 2010, 10:47:43 AM

Quote from: fsujax on September 14, 2010, 10:45:49 AM
Obviously commuter rail, it is the premier regional transit option. BRT is not planned as a regional system. Commuter Rail will be the spine of the system. Other modes will feed it and compliment it. 

Then why waste our money with BRT lines that mirror the rail lines?

Because it's JTA of course!

AGREED! I think that since a BRT line can be more expensive then a commuter rail, they want the government to pay for most of the BRT line project, so later on after the BRT line is complete they won't have to spend as much on a commuter rail, but really they need to face the fact that a commuter rail should be top priority. People don't ride the regular bus, what makes you think that they will ride a bus now. The commuter rail is simply the best option!

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 14, 2010, 10:41:14 AM
If they did commuter rail and then built BRT to support and feed it I could get on board.
Apparently the JTA needs someone to explain (again) the logical order of operations.

Now: Commuter rail line from Orange park/ Flemming Island u turn in Downtown to South side/ Avenues area. Amtrak expanded services from downtown to Miami.

Very soon: Streetcar from Avondale, Five Points and Landing. Brt (I know I know) on JTB from commuter rail to southpoint/St. Luke's, Tinseltown/ Gate Parkway, SJTC/ UNF, Mayo Clinic/ Allstate and Beaches.

Not far off: Beaches streetcar on 3rd, Skyway expansion to San Marco/ E district/ Sports complex, Streetcar to 17 at San Juan. Streetcar/ BRT from Union street to Regency Mall, Commuter rail/ LRT from Airport to Gateway, Shands, Springfield, Downtown and Edward Waters.

Long Term: Commuter rail expanded to Savanna, St. Augustine, Palm Coast, Green Cove Springs, Palatka, Macclenny.  Amtrak to Gainsville, Tallahassee and New Orleans.  HSR to SEHSR and maybe Florida's HSR.  In fill with more Streetcar.

+1000.

Quote from: fsujax on September 14, 2010, 10:45:49 AM
Obviously commuter rail, it is the premier regional transit option. BRT is not planned as a regional system. Commuter Rail will be the spine of the system. Other modes will feed it and compliment it. 

It's going to be tough to feed into it if the BRT buses are driving alongside of it.

OCKLAWAHA

San Francisco has an organization of volunteers who raise money and lobby for the streecars and cablecars.  Here's what their website says in part:

"Market Street Railway is the nonprofit preservation partner of the San Francisco Municipal Railway (Muni), the city agency that owns and operates San Francisco’s transit system, including its historic streetcars and cable cars.

Our group’s leaders were the driving force in making vintage streetcars a full-time part of the San Francisco scene in the 1980s and 1990s.

While we support Muni’s historic transit activities, we are not part of Muni and we receive no government money whatsoever.

We rely instead on private donations and membership dues to help keep San Francisco’s past present in the future by serving as an effective independent advocate for the famed historic streetcars of the F-line, and the national landmark cable cars, which together carry more than 40,000 riders per day.

About Us
Our Mission
Projects & Programs
=============

Is there any such group functioning in JAcksonville?  If not, why not? Could be just the thing to jab JTA in the butt and get them thinking streetcar.  The best option for JTA would be to split into two separate organizations, with one focusing solely on public transit.

Can MJ put together a fund raiser to put toward commuter rail and the like, or perhaps lobbey the city council to and/or JTA to kill the BRT plan in favor of the obvious choice?

Quote from: fsujax on September 14, 2010, 10:45:49 AM
Obviously commuter rail, it is the premier regional transit option. BRT is not planned as a regional system. Commuter Rail will be the spine of the system. Other modes will feed it and compliment it. 

I call B.S. on that, if that were actually the case, then why is that anytime people start looking into commuter rail JTA steps in to usurp the demand and the funding for it by opening up another crappy bus line that serves the exact same route? This has happened twice already.

Any takers for "Three" times or more? BRT better than rail and cheaper..........right! That JTA mantra is starting to really irritate me.........bovines!

QuoteIs there any such group functioning in JAcksonville?  If not, why not? Could be just the thing to jab JTA in the butt and get them thinking streetcar.

Are you volunteering to spearhead such a group Tayana?  This city could use it!

as fsujax noted, this is not a valid question...BRT is only planned for Duval...while commuter rail eaches into Nassau, Clay, and st. Johns.

but take note...BRT will run on 10-15 minute headways...commuter rail would likely run every 30-60 minutes.

Take note the commuter rail would have a positive economic and social impact.

no disagreement jeffrey...I'm just making sure the folks who complain about transit headways (including those of the new riverside trolley) aware

BRT on Philips is a farce.  Eliminate the existing bus duplicate routes in that area, run a regular bus with decent reliable headways and call it a day.  What's proposed is way overboard and detrimental to the economic development future of that entire corridor.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 15, 2010, 11:32:09 PM
BRT on Philips is a farce.  Eliminate the existing bus duplicate routes in that area, run a regular bus with decent reliable headways and call it a day.  What's proposed is way overboard and detrimental to the economic development future of that entire corridor.

Agreed!

Quote]The BRT concept is actually quite good, not too expensive or obtrusive and upgraded enough to make for a much better ride and a much better opportunity to connect.

You'll probably need to provide better detail on this one.  Ock, I know you understand the differences, so this post is really for new readers out there.  

There are so many things considered or called BRT that its hard to throw them under the same category because they're structurally different.  For example, the dedicated busways in these images above will cost you more to construct than LRT.

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TJGf4vyXJHI/AAAAAAAAC-c/VUIV2rujTXI/s800/BRT%20Bombardier%201.jpg)

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TJGf5KXd1BI/AAAAAAAAC-o/69d5p1SByRk/s800/brt%20Vancouver%202.jpg)

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TJGg9yD-4TI/AAAAAAAAC-0/-SqUEZBGBZI/s800/bRT%20CURITIBA%202.jpg)

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TJGg9ysDdXI/AAAAAAAAC-4/d9heyliCyAQ/s800/BRT%20pittsburgh%201.jpg)

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TJGg-J002yI/AAAAAAAAC-8/mJOpDGOt2us/s800/BRT%20Ottawa%208.jpg)

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TJGi6pyuOSI/AAAAAAAAC_Q/ne_rCWGVZw4/s800/brt%20brisbane%202.jpg)

^These tend to work the best but isn't the point of BRT supposed to be that it's cheaper?  That positive goes down the drain when you have to spend extra millions on building the dedicated lanes.

The Orlando and Denver systems are completely different as well.  While our proposed BRT corridors will have a bus running up and down them frequently, JTA is attempting to have these routes used by all buses. The Orlando and Denver systems are nothing more than short downtown shuttles that either loop around a few streets (like our PCTs) or directly connect major destinations along a compact strip with rail.  Sort of like the bus that connects TRE to Dallas/Fort Worth's airport.

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TJGg-VJCf4I/AAAAAAAAC_A/HuMgWDRDWag/s800/bRT%20MCO%209.jpg)

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TJGi6t-0vnI/AAAAAAAAC_M/DdI99zew3p0/s800/BRT%20DEN%204.jpg)

Below is closer to what we're calling BRT.  A branded bus on regular streets with super expensive stops and queue jumps.  We can do this without going to the feds and screwing up our chances for commuter rail happening within a decade.

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TJGf4141CwI/AAAAAAAAC-k/y9i8aZUA6eA/s800/BRT%20LA%203.jpg)

lake............maybe its just me, but I get the impression that JTA's game plan revolves around the Governments trough! "Do the minimum to qualify for a chunk of money and thats all folks"!

The JTA started down this path years ago thinking they couldn't get rail done.  Now that they can they won't change course as a function of "CYA" to justify the time and money they have spent over the years.  I for one would fully accept it if they said the climate has change so we are switching to the Superior mode for the community we serve.

Quote from: tayana42 on September 15, 2010, 12:15:41 AM

Is there any such group functioning in JAcksonville?  If not, why not? Could be just the thing to jab JTA in the butt and get them thinking streetcar.  The best option for JTA would be to split into two separate organizations, with one focusing solely on public transit.

This is something my husband and I have talked about. I would think group could be started that worked with RAP and other historic districts to fundraise and promote bringing back streetcars. Obviously a community group wouldn't be able to raise much more than a drop in the bucket of what it would cost- but it would show that street car is something the community wants and we worked to contribute cash towards what the city and federal grants could put up for the project.

I would suggest you contact SPAR or RAP, I believe there is a grassroots movement underway!

Quote from: fsujax on September 16, 2010, 03:31:47 PM
I would suggest you contact SPAR or RAP, I believe there is a grassroots movement underway!

Not sure about RAP and SPAR is still an unknown entity, because of their new director! If there is a "grassroots movement" someone let me know so I can put my two cents in! Gotta get some rail going, no doubt about it................are you reading JTA? Bovines!

You are right Lake, I hope no newbies see this as support for the JTA BRT plan as-is. I do not support ANY BRT that will run alongside a potential rail route.

There are several (actually many more miles then the JTA plans for) roads and routes where a moderate BRT implementation would make all the sense in the world. BRT could be a real asset on Blanding, Normandy, Cassat, Lem Turner, Norwood, Hendricks, San Jose, Merrill, University, Edgewood and perhaps JTB. I think these routes should have some of the better infrastructure and would support HOV lanes, Que Jumping, Light Priority, TransLoc, Nextbus or Googlebus, and Trolley bus with Docking if our budget allowed. Total expense about 1/2 of the REAL price of streetcar/LRT. None of these routes would ever be considered for Commuter Rail so the much less money per mile for CR wouldn't play into the picture. Just stack it against surface street running rail transit.

I'm more then willing to lead a citizens group for transit, but I want the railroad foamers to realize that not everyplace is a good fit for rail. When the citizens agree that the right fit has been found then we need to act on that finding.

TransLoc, Nextbus and Googlebus are also used by rail agencies, the great thing is you can access most of these on your cell phone and virtually wipe out waits. If you've never seen these technologies in action check out our own UNF campus:
http://unf.transloc.com/

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteBRT could be a real asset on Blanding

Ock, do you know if JTA has any additional plans on Blanding?  They already have a stretch of dedicated bus lanes.  Will this eventually be expanded?  If so, how would you expand this along the tight stretches of Blanding through Cedar Hills?  Those routes have pretty decent ridership numbers.  Higher than Philips' routes even.

No BRT until we take advantage of our rail lines. CSX A line, the S line and the FEC.

Yes they do, the plan is eventually to run from Roosevelt at FSCJ Kent down Blanding to Orange Park/Argyle. Their original idea was a sweeping "bigger then LRT" bus FREEway with such crazy features as wiping out the Cedar Hills Shopping Center with a massive socialized TOD (JTA-COJ owned and operated lease space + transit + social services). This mega-BRT idea seems to have been effectively killed by MJ and an army of concerned citizens. No doubt the plan is still to use the same route without being so damned warped with overkill.

I would continue the plan as-is with a couple of changes on the north end of the route. Post-Cassat-Blanding would be a straight shot from downtown to a very dense area on wide streets all the way. Post leads to Five Points where the BRT would turn north on Park all the way to Jacksonville Terminal.  I would use this as a mainline for the BRT making use of many of the better features and HOV lanes with rush hour restrictions. So the bus-only lanes would surrender to "autos sometimes" lanes, also usable for LARGE car pools 3+ or 4+ and ANY licenced transportation vehicle, school bus, taxi, Greyhound, Trailways, Cubana, etc. The other Blanding leg would turn on San Juan in Lakeshore and run east to the Commuter Rail/eventual streetcar interchange by Roosevelt Plaza. I would push Clay to do similar restricted lanes on Blanding, Wells and Kingsley.

These core routes would set up a future Normandy and Edgewood BRT service. They also surrender the majority of the trunk line to commuter rail and EVERYTHING east of Roosevelt to Streetcar. Of course all of these surrendered territories would still be served by local bus service connecting to the new systems.

Stations would be nice but certainly not the $50,000 dollar models, I would push corporate stations with nice amenities "courtesy of..." Buses would have TransLoc or Nextbus locating systems onboard, and depending on demographics some routes would feature docking buses (able to get railroad close to the platform through guide wheels, or guided bus tech).

BRT and RAIL could be done at the same time using different grant sources and simply being creative.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: fsujax on September 14, 2010, 10:45:49 AM
Obviously commuter rail, it is the premier regional transit option. BRT is not planned as a regional system. Commuter Rail will be the spine of the system. Other modes will feed it and compliment it. 

While I (as in myself) do agree with you, try feeding that to JTA. They seem to have it mixed up.

So far only 17 people voted in this poll. I hope that MJ members are not the only ones pushing commuter rail.

The ability to Vote seems to have been deleted ......for some reason!

Uh huh, I'm sure JTA had nothing to do with that.

Quote from: urbaknight on October 01, 2010, 10:10:21 AM
Uh huh, I'm sure JTA had nothing to do with that.

Are you sure?

I had it to where the poll never ended. Don't ask me how it ended!

Quote from: urbaknight on October 01, 2010, 10:10:21 AM
Uh huh, I'm sure JTA had nothing to do with that.

yes...like everything else, it is a giant JTA conspiracy!

Well if those pinheads are reading this stuff.........are you positive they ain't? They appear to love cooking their numbers and information......why not something they should have no control over?