Metro Jacksonville

Back in the 1980's when the Skyway Express was being built, I remember a huge banner that read, "MAKING TRACKS TO THE GATOR BOWL"   

The city and JTA’s first mistake was not finishing what they set out to do.  This extension to the Sports Complex was, and is, the most important section of all and they didn't do it?????  HELLO?? They can give the excuse that it's too costly but I don't buy that and a lot of educated people in this city don't buy that either.   

I really don't like to be negative and I try to look on the "bright" side of things but it blows my mind that the “powers that be” at city hall and JTA actually believe this Bus "rapid transit (an oxymoron if there ever was one) is going to work.  If anything, take part of the money for this project and actually finish the Skyway Express (SE) to the sports complex. Talk about a major jump in ridership. Building additional bus lanes downtown will only compete with the SE, which is the worse thing that JTA can allow to happen.

With JTA's current scenario, people take a meandering (and bumpy) bus ride from parking areas on the fringes of downtown (i.e. the convention center, park and ride lots) to the sports complex. Then after the game or concert, the buses whisk people away from the sports complex as quickly as possible, bypass the few night clubs and restaurants that downtown does have, and drops everyone back at their cars in parking lots on the edges of downtown, which only encourages them to drive home in a mass exodus from downtown.  Currently,   It's just as bad for people who park near the stadium.  Instead of a traffic flow that encourages people to stop on Bay Street or the Landing after a game, we have barricades and one way exits that encourage, if not force, people to leave downtown after a game or concert. Does this make any sense?

Downtown business owners should be furious with the city and JTA for making it so difficult for people to explore downtown after a game or concert because of the current situation.  Is it any wonder that our downtown is struggling and cities like Charlotte and Nashville have thriving downtown nightlife's?   

By simply extending the Skyway to the Sports Complex/Metro Park via the Bay Street corridor, people will actually ride the SE from the Southbank and convention center directly to the sports complex.  And, if there were a couple of stations along the way (Bay Street nightclubs, Berkman Plaza, Shipyards), people could actually stop at a restaurant for a bite to eat or to a nightclub after the game and then hop back on the Skyway. I implore they city and JTA to reconsider this ill fated bus plan and go back and finish what your started with the Skyway Express.  By connecting downtown and the Southbank with the sports complex (2 or 3 sq. miles) via the SE, you will make it easier and more enjoyable for visitors and residents to explore our beautiful “river city by the sea.”  If the city and JTA can’t succeed in connecting this 3 square mile area, the heart of our city, what makes them believe they can connect the entire city through bus rapid transit. 

I agree; they never finished what they started.  If anything, one of the first things they should have done was finished the skyway from the core to the stadium, THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIRST. Then to the convention center and future local bus station and southside.  Still say they should extend to the Gator Bowl, it would pay off from the numerous thousands coming to and from the game. Our leaders don't think at all.

"HU"

Absolutely They have only put two wheels on their car and then complain about people not liking the ride.

I don't think we will know the potential of the train to nowhere until it goes somewhere!

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on September 04, 2010, 09:59:15 AM
I don't think we will know the potential of the train to nowhere until it goes somewhere!

Therein lies the basic problem...............it does not go to where it should! But what do the taxpayers know........nothing it appears............we just pay for it one way or the other!

Its funny to read this topic, im on the Marta with all these LSU & Tarheel fans... CNN Dome Station is packed with people just hanging around on the platform. I dont Jax dont seem to want that sort of thing.

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 04, 2010, 02:32:58 PM
Its funny to read this topic, im on the Marta with all these LSU & Tarheel fans... CNN Dome Station is packed with people just hanging around on the platform. I dont Jax dont seem to want that sort of thing.

+1

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 04, 2010, 02:32:58 PM
Its funny to read this topic, im on the Marta with all these LSU & Tarheel fans... CNN Dome Station is packed with people just hanging around on the platform. I dont Jax dont seem to want that sort of thing.

and even with all those fans riding, MARTA is in worse financial shape than JTA....makes you wonder why

QUICK FIX....JUS EXPAND THE FREAKIN SKYWAY TO THE SPORTS DISTRICT...ITS AS SIMPLE AS THAT!!!WHEN THERE ISN'T ENOUGH PARKING IN THE SPORTS DISTRICT OF COURSE PEOPLE WILL PARK SOMEWHERE ELSE DOWNTOWN AND THEN GET ON THE SKYWAY. WHY CANT THEY SEE THAT??????

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Jacksonville_Skyway_stub.jpg)

For what it's worth Georgia is WAY AHEAD in moving the masses. Shortly after Amtrak started up in 1971 they immediately released a state rail plan that called for new state sponsored passenger trains:

Atlanta-Chattanooga
Atlanta-Augusta
Atlanta-Macon-Savannah
Atlanta-Macon-Albany
Macon-Valdosta
Atlanta-Columbus

They also started their own version of the JRTC (Jacksonville Terminal) which goes in the area of the razed Union Station and Terminal Station.

On high-speed rail, they jumped on the SEHSR plan to extend a line from Atlanta to DC, Atlanta to Jacksonville and Atlanta to New Orleans.

Atlanta Commuter Rail and corridor trains between Atlanta and Macon are "just about to start rolling."

1971-TO DATE, they have spent millions on study's and accomplished absolutely NONE of these things, but hey, don't sweat it, it will happen tomorrow!



OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 05, 2010, 09:19:40 AM

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 04, 2010, 02:32:58 PM
Its funny to read this topic, im on the Marta with all these LSU & Tarheel fans... CNN Dome Station is packed with people just hanging around on the platform. I dont Jax dont seem to want that sort of thing.

and even with all those fans riding, MARTA is in worse financial shape than JTA....makes you wonder why

I am guessing the why is they prefer to invest in their quality of life.

^ Is the point of transit to see how much money you can save or to positively effect your community.

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 04, 2010, 03:41:41 PM

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 04, 2010, 02:32:58 PM
Its funny to read this topic, im on the Marta with all these LSU & Tarheel fans... CNN Dome Station is packed with people just hanging around on the platform. I dont Jax dont seem to want that sort of thing.

+1

The thing about it..is people say a Skyway Station would not move people fast enough, but yesterday the sports fans were just chilling, laughing, yelling, drinking....just all around enjoying themselves...not really because of the train, but knowing your car is safely parked at one of the boring outskirt stations would give some a peace of mind. The next sporting event at GA Dome Ill try to take some flix & post em here.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 05, 2010, 09:19:40 AM

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 04, 2010, 02:32:58 PM
Its funny to read this topic, im on the Marta with all these LSU & Tarheel fans... CNN Dome Station is packed with people just hanging around on the platform. I dont Jax dont seem to want that sort of thing.

and even with all those fans riding, MARTA is in worse financial shape than JTA....makes you wonder why

From what I read in forums and AJC (atl news rag)...its the state that keeps Marta from doing well. Thats and the 28 counties in the Atlanta metro & only 2 counties contribute to funds..I dont know all the details but we all know how politics is.

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 05, 2010, 11:42:28 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 05, 2010, 09:19:40 AM

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 04, 2010, 02:32:58 PM
Its funny to read this topic, im on the Marta with all these LSU & Tarheel fans... CNN Dome Station is packed with people just hanging around on the platform. I dont Jax dont seem to want that sort of thing.

and even with all those fans riding, MARTA is in worse financial shape than JTA....makes you wonder why

From what I read in forums and AJC (atl news rag)...its the state that keeps Marta from doing well. Thats and the 28 counties in the Atlanta metro & only 2 counties contribute to funds..I dont know all the details but we all know how politics is.

that is true...for 3 major reasons

1. A fear of "urban" people being able to access the suburbs
2. Concerns that MARTA wants suburban $ to fund urban transit
3. Significant support of roads

You meantioned quality of life in a previous post...I don't think of 10-14 lane highways a the kind of quality of life I want....now I will admit that ATL has made soe serious strides toward urbanity in the last 15 years, the metro area is still sprwaling out a bunch.

btw Ock...I would submit that GA is not ahead of FL in terms of intercity rail...they have been trying to build a "brain train" from Athens to ATL for 20+ years, are nowhere near as far along as we re on HSR, and their Amtrak plans don't compare well with even our FEC proposal. 

Connect the SE to the stadium with one stop in between, then connect downtown via an expanded Riverside Trolley, and I could walk from
my house on Oak Street to Publix/Riverside Market Square and enjoy public transport all the way to the stadium area for any special event scheduled anywhere downtown. My 6 year old suggested this. Maybe I should take her down to the next City Council Meeting.

Quote from: MusicMan on September 05, 2010, 12:20:35 PM
My 6 year old suggested this. Maybe I should take her down to the next City Council Meeting.

Nah, she'd be smarter than the room.   :D

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 05, 2010, 11:54:15 AM

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 05, 2010, 11:42:28 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 05, 2010, 09:19:40 AM

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 04, 2010, 02:32:58 PM
Its funny to read this topic, im on the Marta with all these LSU & Tarheel fans... CNN Dome Station is packed with people just hanging around on the platform. I dont Jax dont seem to want that sort of thing.

and even with all those fans riding, MARTA is in worse financial shape than JTA....makes you wonder why

From what I read in forums and AJC (atl news rag)...its the state that keeps Marta from doing well. Thats and the 28 counties in the Atlanta metro & only 2 counties contribute to funds..I dont know all the details but we all know how politics is.

that is true...for 3 major reasons

1. A fear of "urban" people being able to access the suburbs
2. Concerns that MARTA wants suburban $ to fund urban transit
3. Significant support of roads

You meantioned quality of life in a previous post...I don't think of 10-14 lane highways a the kind of quality of life I want....now I will admit that ATL has made soe serious strides toward urbanity in the last 15 years, the metro area is still sprwaling out a bunch.

btw Ock...I would submit that GA is not ahead of FL in terms of intercity rail...they have been trying to build a "brain train" from Athens to ATL for 20+ years, are nowhere near as far along as we re on HSR, and their Amtrak plans don't compare well with even our FEC proposal.  

Well you hit the MARTA funding problems on the head. I always find it so unfair that the cadre of suburbanites has noooooo trouble whatsoever with using the urban tax base to fund its infrastructure (as has happened since the very dawn of suburbia) but gets immediately horrified and teabagger-y...oops...I mean "tea party"...at the thought of any of their tax dollars funding anything at all beyond the end of their own driveway.

This viewpoint, as much as anything else, is responsible for our national sprawl problem...

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 05, 2010, 11:54:15 AM

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 05, 2010, 11:42:28 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 05, 2010, 09:19:40 AM

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 04, 2010, 02:32:58 PM
Its funny to read this topic, im on the Marta with all these LSU & Tarheel fans... CNN Dome Station is packed with people just hanging around on the platform. I dont Jax dont seem to want that sort of thing.

and even with all those fans riding, MARTA is in worse financial shape than JTA....makes you wonder why

From what I read in forums and AJC (atl news rag)...its the state that keeps Marta from doing well. Thats and the 28 counties in the Atlanta metro & only 2 counties contribute to funds..I dont know all the details but we all know how politics is.

that is true...for 3 major reasons

1. A fear of "urban" people being able to access the suburbs
2. Concerns that MARTA wants suburban $ to fund urban transit
3. Significant support of roads

You meantioned quality of life in a previous post...I don't think of 10-14 lane highways a the kind of quality of life I want....now I will admit that ATL has made soe serious strides toward urbanity in the last 15 years, the metro area is still sprwaling out a bunch.

btw Ock...I would submit that GA is not ahead of FL in terms of intercity rail...they have been trying to build a "brain train" from Athens to ATL for 20+ years, are nowhere near as far along as we re on HSR, and their Amtrak plans don't compare well with even our FEC proposal. 

Right On Hoss! Thats funny you say that, because Im an urban person and want no parts of the suburbs....it reminds me too much of my parents style. It may have something to do with being a Navy brat and grew up near Cecil & NAS Jax, but when I lived in Riverside that was like heaven. It was nice to walk to fuel or club 5 or even the shell station on Margaret & Post for stuff. Living off Normandy & 103rd was nothing like that. Why people like that style of living is beyond me.  Im not saying everyone should leave the sticks, but the urban option gets no love in America.

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_d6zJSvsGq3s/Rwkjm9NVEpI/AAAAAAAAAQg/xfpCTeFOlh8/s720/tre-atl31.jpg)

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 05, 2010, 11:54:15 AM
btw Ock...I would submit that GA is not ahead of FL in terms of intercity rail...they have been trying to build a "brain train" from Athens to ATL for 20+ years, are nowhere near as far along as we re on HSR, and their Amtrak plans don't compare well with even our FEC proposal. 

Uh TUFSU, go back and reread my SARCASM...  If we think FDOT and JTA are good then wow man, check out Georgia!  If those hollow headed conservative politicos eternally promising more tax relief and a trickle down economic boom based on DOING NOTHING don't catch on soon, Papua New Guinea will surpass the "New South." Lake and I will be able to take Florida and Georgia officials on a new high speed train over the Owen Stanley Mountains and post a "Learning from the Headhunters in Pidgin," on MJ.

At least we have a shot at bringing life back into the greatest grand old temple of the rails remaining in the South. Florida is AT LEAST helping to get Amtrak back as a player in our state, even though they are still blindly following the flashing neon of "HIGH SPEED RAIL" right over a cliff. Our commuter rail new starts are looking like the real deal in Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville. Regional rail just might be returning to the SUN COAST with talk of reviving the old Lakeland-Ft.Myers-Naples connection on one of Amtrak's Tampa trains. The Sunset Limited is far from dead in Florida. Even non-official talk of regional trains between Jacksonville and Gainesville has already captured the imagination of Gainesville RTS, The City of Starke (home of the Sec of FDOT), and positive comments from our own JTA. The same sort of reception has been received from Ohio to Valdosta, as well as the movers and shakers down on the Treasure Coast over the idea of reviving the old ROYAL PALM ROUTE from (Chicago) (Detroit) (Cleveland) (Buffalo) Cincinnati-ATLANTA-Macon-Valdosta-Jacksonville-Miami via the FEC RY.

...and for all of their talk up in Georgia, they have accomplished...

drum roll please...

wait for it...

here it comes...

N O T H I N G !

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 05, 2010, 10:08:38 AM
For what it's worth Georgia is WAY AHEAD in moving the masses. Shortly after Amtrak started up in 1971 they immediately released a state rail plan that called for new state sponsored passenger trains:

Atlanta-Chattanooga
Atlanta-Augusta
Atlanta-Macon-Savannah
Atlanta-Macon-Albany
Macon-Valdosta
Atlanta-Columbus

They also started their own version of the JRTC (Jacksonville Terminal) which goes in the area of the razed Union Station and Terminal Station.

On high-speed rail, they jumped on the SEHSR plan to extend a line from Atlanta to DC, Atlanta to Jacksonville and Atlanta to New Orleans.

Atlanta Commuter Rail and corridor trains between Atlanta and Macon are "just about to start rolling."

1971-TO DATE, they have spent millions on study's and accomplished absolutely NONE of these things, but hey, don't sweat it, it will happen tomorrow!

OCKLAWAHA

OCKLAWAHA

guess I missed the sarcasm Ock...oops, my bad

Atl is Jax with more people & no water.

sad but true

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 06, 2010, 01:42:32 PM
Atl is Jax with more people & no water.

well they are ahead on the amount of concrete for roads...........I would gues at the rate we are going we should catch up and surpass them in about 10 years or less...........imho!

Whats the estimate cost of expanding the skyway out to the stadium/arena complex?  Who will be riding it?  The only way you'll get jaguar fans on it is if you do away with the bus service, and really its only 8 weekends a year.  What the max people it could transport in an hour and a half?    Lets face it after a couple hours of tailgating, then the game, the goal of most people is to get home.  Baseball games?  I doubt it, there is more than enough surface parking for those and most of the events in the arena.  Now the gator bowl and the fl-ga game I could see that working well.  But all that depends on the cost estimate.  I don't see expanding to the stadiums as being a panacea or even significantly increasing the ridership when taking the extra cost into account.

skyway extension to the stadium would cost at least $25 million

A commuter rail line to the burbs or a streetcar line to urban neighborhoods would be the best thing for the skyway.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 06, 2010, 08:35:00 PM
skyway extension to the stadium would cost at least $25 million

So that would be 3 stations to add to the 8. Not a bad price

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 06, 2010, 05:07:10 PM

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 06, 2010, 01:42:32 PM
Atl is Jax with more people & no water.

well they are ahead on the amount of concrete for roads...........I would gues at the rate we are going we should catch up and surpass them in about 10 years or less...........imho!

You lose me...Explain what u mean by this.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 06, 2010, 08:35:00 PM
skyway extension to the stadium would cost at least $25 million

3 Stations

One for Sports Complex & Metro Park/Shipyards, One for Hyatt & Riverfront District & One for Landing, Omni Hotel & Laura Street. That would be perfect...no loses but taxi drivers lol...also when the old courthouse is empty that spot will also be served by the Hyatt/Riverfront station. It would set Jax 5 years ahead instantly!

Quote from: civil42806 on September 06, 2010, 07:52:09 PM
Whats the estimate cost of expanding the skyway out to the stadium/arena complex?  Who will be riding it?  The only way you'll get jaguar fans on it is if you do away with the bus service, and really its only 8 weekends a year.  What the max people it could transport in an hour and a half?    Lets face it after a couple hours of tailgating, then the game, the goal of most people is to get home.  Baseball games?  I doubt it, there is more than enough surface parking for those and most of the events in the arena.  Now the gator bowl and the fl-ga game I could see that working well.  But all that depends on the cost estimate.  I don't see expanding to the stadiums as being a panacea or even significantly increasing the ridership when taking the extra cost into account.

The Skyway is another option....the only reason there are so many parking spaces there is because the Skyway is NOT THERE. A Sport Complex station would pick up Suns fans as well as concert goers, especially before the event. Plus Jax gets a lot of 1pm games......Ive always went to eat after a game to eat, relax & watch more football. People leave downtown because they are FORCED TO. especially Westsiders & Southsiders. How many can it ride? They have ways of adding cars to the Skyway trains. You forgot the 2 preseason games the scrimages, practices & the Arena Football...Man the amount of games/events dont matter...how many games do they play at the dinky parking lot at Jefferson Station? How many Concerts have played at the RiverPlace Station?? None. Why expect one Station at the Sports Complex to change the world when the city has 2 other ueless Stations on the line? If we are going to break it down by stations hell shut those 2 down & build to Sport Complex.

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 06, 2010, 10:18:48 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 06, 2010, 08:35:00 PM
skyway extension to the stadium would cost at least $25 million

3 Stations

One for Sports Complex & Metro Park/Shipyards, One for Hyatt & Riverfront District & One for Landing, Omni Hotel & Laura Street. That would be perfect...no loses but taxi drivers lol...also when the old courthouse is empty that spot will also be served by the Hyatt/Riverfront station. It would set Jax 5 years ahead instantly!

Granted it's not connected to the property per se (another topic of discussion), there's already a station near/at the Omni. 

And per another thread, on that property sits the parking lot that Sleiman got for the Landing, if I'm not mistaken.

So basically, based on this train of thought, you need two stations and not three - since technically the Landing's got one (albeit not convenient): Sports Complex/A Philip Randolph/Metro Park, and Hyatt/Rivverfront (which IMO would still be a sweet location for a new Convention Center).

Quote from: civil42806 on September 06, 2010, 07:52:09 PM
The only way you'll get jaguar fans on it is if you do away with the bus service, and really its only 8 weekends a year.  What the max people it could transport in an hour and a half?    Lets face it after a couple hours of tailgating, then the game, the goal of most people is to get home.  Baseball games?  I doubt it, there is more than enough surface parking for those and most of the events in the arena. 

I agree with Coolyfett on this.  The massive sea of parking is partial because of the lack of transit to the stadium.  If you put a skyway station into Lot J, you'd be able to get rid of a lot of the parking.  You could build additional attractions on that area and enhance the existing amenities in the area.  This could generate more events and more reasons to ride the skyway to the area.  Between the Sharks, the Suns, the Jags, the concerts, Met Park events, and random other occurances, I don't see why this wouldn't work. 


Think also about people that could use the skyway for the reverse commute, from the sports complex to the core.  Out of town fans could stay at a hotel adjacent to the stadium and ride into the core for food/nightlife.  Workers in the area could use it for lunch in the core.

This area draws far more visitors than the convention center, which has its own station.
 

So in other words unless you dump the surface parking and "force" people to ride the riderless express it won't succeed.  So the goal of the suns and jaguars and city is to make it inconvienent to get to there games and activities?  Quite frankly eliminating the surface parking at these facilities is a pipe dream.  If thats what it takes, lets save the money and expand it somewhere else.

Quote from: stephendare on September 07, 2010, 11:23:26 AM

Quote from: civil42806 on September 07, 2010, 11:20:14 AM
So in other words unless you dump the surface parking and "force" people to ride the riderless express it won't succeed.  So the goal of the suns and jaguars and city is to make it inconvienent to get to there games and activities?  Quite frankly eliminating the surface parking at these facilities is a pipe dream.  If thats what it takes, lets save the money and expand it somewhere else.

Come on and show some common sense.

What is the cost of the undeveloped and undevelopable land that is devoted to empty parking lots?

Decentralizing the population of parkers will only help everyone.

That's a good point.

This city has watched hundreds of millions in what would/used to be its urban tax base get tied up in surface parking and vacant lots that are valued at next to nothing. The tax revenues which would be created if they were used for their highest and best purpose are probably quite significant. The other problem is COJ is turning basically all of downtown into one big city administration complex. All of that is off the tax rolls, meaning there is no revenue to accomplish anything down there, since most suburbanites around here can't stand the thought of their tax dollars being used for anything downtown, or even much beyond the end of their own street. This probably leads to the situation we have now, where every time COJ wants to do anything downtown they have to rob peter to pay paul.

I don't believe those lots are valued at nothing. $20 per vehicle fee x 250 cars x 16(+) games including Gator Bowl and FL/GA = $80,000.00 for a lot with a 250 car capacity. Not bad work if you can get it.

I support taking the skyway to the stadium to save my $20 bucks as a citizen rather than to bolster property owners (even if it is the city) that wish to keep the wasteland status quo.

Well first of all I'm not talking about parking lots in general in downtown.  I'm talking about the lots specifically around the stadium.  Neither the Suns or the Jaguars are going to want to surrender those lots.  As much as Mr Bragan and Mr Weaver love jacksonville, I doubt either are going to want to irritate there customers.  If there is all this pent up demand for development of there parking lots I recommend you forward them to the endless lots in the heart of downtown or the old shipyards or the ambassador.

Quote from: civil42806 on September 07, 2010, 12:04:40 PM
Well first of all I'm not talking about parking lots in general in downtown.  I'm talking about the lots specifically around the stadium.  Neither the Suns or the Jaguars are going to want to surrender those lots.  As much as Mr Bragan and Mr Weaver love jacksonville, I doubt either are going to want to irritate there customers.  If there is all this pent up demand for development of there parking lots I recommend you forward them to the endless lots in the heart of downtown or the old shipyards or the ambassador.

Perhaps there is misunderstanding. I don't believe anyone is suggesting the infill of the Stadium core parking lots. Let the mercedes lexus crew have their lots right at the stadium. In fact, bringing in the skyway doesn't compel anyone to do anything different than they already do.

What it does do is offer a more affordable alternative for attendees, provides out of towners a better way to and from hotels/venues and enhances the value of the skyway.

Those wishing to park very close to the stadium will still be able to. Those wishing to keep their properties as parking lots will be able to. Those wishing to earn a better return than a seasonal parking lot offers will also have such an opportunity.

Quote from: buckethead on September 07, 2010, 12:15:13 PM
What it does do is offer a more affordable alternative for attendees, provides out of towners a better way to and from hotels/venues and enhances the value of the skyway.

Agreed! I generally ride my bike to the games if weather permits... or we squeeze 10 people in my buddys SUV. I refuse to pay $20+ to park. AND... having people park further down the river would also disperse traffic after the game. The last game we sat in downtown traffic for close to an hour and that was just to go down Jefferson into Riverside.

"The last game we sat in downtown traffic for close to an hour and that was just to go down Jefferson into Riverside."

Might I suggest taking Beaver St. to Myrtle Ave, King St. or McDuff Ave. to get from DT to Riverside after the game.

What's wrong with the Stadium Shuttle that is currently available for Jaguars games? Sports Illustrated named it the NFL's top shuttle service a year or two ago. Seems to work pretty well to me. Much better than paying $20 and dealing with all the traffic.

Quote from: exnewsman on September 07, 2010, 01:33:43 PM
What's wrong with the Stadium Shuttle that is currently available for Jaguars games? Sports Illustrated named it the NFL's top shuttle service a year or two ago. Seems to work pretty well to me. Much better than paying $20 and dealing with all the traffic.

ha ha ha ha ha Thats a good one.

Why cant workers use those lots during the week?

Quote from: Doctor_K on September 07, 2010, 10:28:10 AM

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 06, 2010, 10:18:48 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 06, 2010, 08:35:00 PM
skyway extension to the stadium would cost at least $25 million

3 Stations

One for Sports Complex & Metro Park/Shipyards, One for Hyatt & Riverfront District & One for Landing, Omni Hotel & Laura Street. That would be perfect...no loses but taxi drivers lol...also when the old courthouse is empty that spot will also be served by the Hyatt/Riverfront station. It would set Jax 5 years ahead instantly!

Granted it's not connected to the property per se (another topic of discussion), there's already a station near/at the Omni. 

And per another thread, on that property sits the parking lot that Sleiman got for the Landing, if I'm not mistaken.

So basically, based on this train of thought, you need two stations and not three - since technically the Landing's got one (albeit not convenient): Sports Complex/A Philip Randolph/Metro Park, and Hyatt/Rivverfront (which IMO would still be a sweet location for a new Convention Center).

yea I think you are referring to Central Station...i coud see where it might serve the Omni & maybe the Landing....I was kinda Laura Street area at Bay & Laura since it would be going that direction.

Quote from: civil42806 on September 07, 2010, 11:20:14 AM
So in other words unless you dump the surface parking and "force" people to ride the riderless express it won't succeed.  So the goal of the suns and jaguars and city is to make it inconvienent to get to there games and activities?  Quite frankly eliminating the surface parking at these facilities is a pipe dream.  If thats what it takes, lets save the money and expand it somewhere else.

See what I mean?? Why you gotta be so pro automobile man? I never said get ride of all the lots. People should drive to the game, BUT people should also have the rail option. How is it an inconvience?? Jags business is to sell the NFL experience.....SOME think its their job to sell wins. Suns provide the professional baseball experience. Options, options, options.....Some people take their boats to Jag games, some use Shuttle, some use their automobile like you...The Skyway is an option. The Best Option off keeping the consumer spending cash downtown. Especially once you remove the chore off driving around. I can assure you Sports Complex has ENOUGH parking spaces.

Looks like the TU covered this recently:

QuoteAfter 20 years, Jacksonville Skyway remains a punchline

The Skyway has been a Jacksonville joke for a generation.

But the underachieving, 2.5-mile elevated people mover that first opened in 1989 isn't all that funny.

Look up at its silent, almost-empty cars and you can see the failure of downtown as a place to live and work. The dingy stations reflect Jacksonville's inability to come up with a successful long-term transportation plan.

More than 20 years after it opened, the number of people who ride the Skyway remains low. The Jacksonville Transportation Authority originally promised 100,000 riders per month, but its average last year was less than a third of that.

And it loses money - a lot of money.

The system that was built for $183 million, more than half from the federal government, needs $14 million to operate each year - $1.5 million of that from Washington for maintenance alone.

In 2009, it generated only $431,000 in revenue, less than a 4 percent return. Most public transit systems lose money, but by comparison JTA's bus system made back more than 20 percent - $6.2 million - of its $30.2 million cost in 2009.

JTA says to be patient and that eventually the Skyway will be a success. The agency is counting on things breaking its way, such as vibrant downtown development and private entities who are willing to partner with JTA to expand the Skyway or build a transportation system that links to it.

Those things, though, didn't happen even in a roaring economy.

While running for mayor in 1991, Ed Austin said he wanted to stop construction on the nearly new system because of doubts it would ever work. As mayor, he changed his mind, in part because of fears - true to this day - that Washington would force JTA to pay back the money it had gotten.

Last month, Austin said he still thinks it was a mistake.

"It could work if you get more people downtown," he said. "But it would take a major revitalization of the downtown for that to happen."

Whose line is it, anyway?

Most of today's Skyway ridership appears to be on the northern section, between Hemming Plaza and Florida State College at Jacksonville.

Stations at Jefferson Street on the Northside and Riverplace Boulevard and Kings Avenue on the Southside are a good place to enjoy some peace and quiet.

A fire shut down the Riverplace station last year for several months until about $270,000 in repairs were made. No one seemed to notice, or care.

And yet it has its supporters.

Brian Presley takes the Skyway from San Marco to the Central Station most weekdays while commuting to his office in the Wachovia Building. It's cheaper for him take the Skyway than park in a downtown parking garage.

"I think the Skyway is a good idea that badly needs to be expanded," he said.

Beth Slater enjoys taking the Skyway from the Southbank into downtown, especially when she's showing the city to out-of-town visitors and newcomers.

"Occasionally I get the feeling I'm in a different city," Slater said, "or that Jacksonville has a grasp on public transit."

She just wishes the ride wasn't so short.

And that's the problem, said Ken Button, director of the Center for Transportation Policy, Operations and Logistics at George Mason University in Virginia. Urban people movers need to travel farther to be effective.

"It's the type of system that works great at Disneyland or at an airport when there are not other options available," Button said. "But people in downtown areas won't ride it when they have other options."

How, and why, it began

In the 1970s, local leaders thought they had a great idea.

Concerned with congestion on roads and toll bridges, air pollution and a lack of parking, Jacksonville transportation planners came to believe another option was needed for getting people into downtown.

The solution? A 4.4-mile people-mover system that would connect the medical centers on Eighth Street with Riverside, San Marco and the Gator Bowl.

The federal government was willing, having already put up money for similar elevated people movers in Miami and Detroit. And although Jacksonville wasn't able to get enough money to build the whole route, after years of twists and turns, it built the first stretch of the 2.5-mile downtown line that exists today.

Former Mayor Jake Godbold championed the Skyway and was in office when the city was awarded the first federal grant in 1985. He said he now regrets it.

"The business community thought it would help the downtown," Godbold said. "But if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have pushed for it."

The system was built on the assumption that growth would continue downtown and that didn't happen, said former Mayor Tommy Hazouri.

"We all assumed people would always come downtown to go shopping," he said. "We didn't anticipate something like the St. Johns Town Center."

JTA and the city should have focused on a system that took people from the suburbs into the downtown, Hazouri said.

Instead, JTA wanted the city to limit downtown parking, which it said would have encouraged people to take the Skyway. That plan made its way into some of the city's long-term comprehensive plans but was never enforced.

In fact, it was reversed.

Available parking has probably doubled in downtown since the 1980s, said Ron Barton, executive director of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission. Keeping cars out of downtown was never a priority, he said.

Then there was the stadium idea.

A line to the Gator Bowl was on JTA's initial plans and remained on the drawing board until as recently as 2002. JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock tabled it, saying the system needed to be successful before it expanded.

Former Mayor John Delaney said it should have been the other way around.

"The Skyway was built in the wrong place," he said, "and will not work until an extension is done to connect it to the football stadium."

Failure is not an option

Despite the Skyway's shortcomings, no local leader has called for it to be torn down.

It would probably cost tens of millions of dollars, and JTA estimates it would have to pay about $90 million back to the federal government if it did.

It would also hold the city back from getting money for projects it actually needs.

U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., the ranking Republican on the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said Jacksonville would struggle to get money for future public transit projects if it threw away the Skyway.

"It would go to the end of the line for everything," Mica said.

But that shouldn't be an issue, because there's nothing wrong with the Skyway, Mica said. It is supposed to connect to other modes of public transportation, those have never been built, and that is why the Skyway looks like a bad idea, he said.

"A lot of cities would love to have a system like the Skyway," Mica said "It would probably cost $500 million to install something similar today."

Blaylock said he would fight to keep the Skyway even if the federal government didn't care about getting its money back.

"Shutting down the Skyway is like turning your back on downtown," he said. "I can't do that."

But downtown may have already turned its back on the Skyway. Although the system needs downtown redevelopment to thrive, the feeling is not mutual.

Barton said its success or failure is not expected to have much impact on redevelopment. In fact, the Skyway's presence on Hogan Street may be making it harder to attract businesses downtown.

"Recognizing its marginal use," Barton said, "you certainly could make an argument that the Skyway has reduced the value of some properties it goes past."

What the future holds

Hazouri ties the success of the Skyway to efforts to revitalize downtown.

"Get people living and working downtown," Hazouri said, "and everything changes."

He's not alone in that view.

Steve Arrington, JTA director of resource management, said more people who work in the downtown are choosing to live closer to where they work. This is causing communities like Riverside, Springfield and San Marco to flourish. That will lead to more congested roads and parking downtown - and, Arrington believes, create a need for the Skyway with people parking at the Prime Osborn Convention Center parking lots and at the Kings Avenue parking garage on the Southside.

The Skyway has seen an uptick in ridership recently, and Arrington said that is largely due to more people living and working close to downtown.

Next, connecting the Skyway to other forms of transit is a necessity. Blaylock said that includes getting a commuter rail system built that will take people from the suburbs to the Prime Osborn - and getting federal money to build it.

A recent study found that a system could be built for about $600 million, and JTA hopes to get the money to build it within the next 10 years. Mica said JTA has a good chance because the Obama administration is pushing for more rail.

JTA might also pursue a fixed-rail trolley system to get downtown pedestrians to areas the Skyway does not go, such as Shands, EverBank Field and Riverside. A public-private partnership would be sought to get this done, Blaylock said.

The Metromover in Miami, which has a similar design to the Skyway, is a good model for eventual success Jacksonville, Mica said.

Opened in 1986 and extended in 1994, the 4.4-mile Metromover averaged 660,000 riders a month in 2009. The downtown system connects to Miami Metrorail, which goes to the outskirts of the city.

The Metromover, which cost $23.3 million to operate in 2009, is free of charge because of a half-penny sales tax Miami-Dade County voters passed in 2002.

The Skyway was also free of charge when it opened and, initially, ridership was at capacity. A month later, JTA began charging 25 cents, and ridership tanked.

Back in those days, former JTA Chairman Arnold Tritt, responding to continued criticism that the Skyway was costing too much, predicted that history would vindicate the agency.

"I really think in the year 2020, 2010 ... whenever," Tritt said, "people are going to say, 'What visionaries!' "

No one has, yet.

larry.hannan@jacksonville.com (904) 359-4470

Interesting tidbit I didn't know

Quotehe Skyway was also free of charge when it opened and, initially, ridership was at capacity. A month later, JTA began charging 25 cents, and ridership tanked.

While I'll argue till I'm dead that a heritage streetcar would have carried about 5x the traffic from day one, plus created a couple of BILLION in new development, there is just no excuse for the epic failure of the Skyway.

Never building the recommended route from the stadium through the government center to Central Station, or from Riverside (which btw was supposed to be next to PS-4). The north-south line doesn't even enter the campus of FSCJ and even if they don't want a station, a station COULD BE built on the north end where students and Bethel Baptist folks could easily gain access without getting mowed down by speeding cars on Union Street. Shand's the VA Clinic, Baptist Hospital, Wolfson, Nemours, Ronald McDonald, Hilton, Atlantic at the FEC... all missed opportunities.

Until some future mayor-council has the testosterone to stand up and push this thing to completion based on the original plan, we'll never be able to accurately gauge it's success or failure.

For the shocker? I'll wager that the Skyway even as impotent as it is today, is still the highest (or damn close) Passenger Per Mile transit route in the City.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 07, 2010, 07:55:30 PM


For the shocker? I'll wager that the Skyway even as impotent as it is today, is still the highest (or damn close) Passenger Per Mile transit route in the City.


OCKLAWAHA

Ock.........I won't take that bet! But it can not help but be...........how long 2.5 Miles? Makes sense to me!

So how bad does the Skyway's ridership suck??

Well for two route miles, it gets over 2,000 daily riders, lets just call it 1,000 per mile-per day.

Every year JTA buses cover 8.5 million route miles...

Are you still with me?

If each bus carried the same load as the Skyway daily, the annual JTA Bus ridership would be about

853,000,000

or roughly

2,300,000 passengers DAILY.

Sucks don't it?

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Shwaz on September 07, 2010, 04:56:26 PM
Looks like the TU covered this recently:

QuoteAfter 20 years, Jacksonville Skyway remains a punchline

The Skyway has been a Jacksonville joke for a generation.

But the underachieving, 2.5-mile elevated people mover that first opened in 1989 isn't all that funny.

Look up at its silent, almost-empty cars and you can see the failure of downtown as a place to live and work. The dingy stations reflect Jacksonville's inability to come up with a successful long-term transportation plan.

More than 20 years after it opened, the number of people who ride the Skyway remains low. The Jacksonville Transportation Authority originally promised 100,000 riders per month, but its average last year was less than a third of that.

And it loses money - a lot of money.

The system that was built for $183 million, more than half from the federal government, needs $14 million to operate each year - $1.5 million of that from Washington for maintenance alone.

In 2009, it generated only $431,000 in revenue, less than a 4 percent return. Most public transit systems lose money, but by comparison JTA's bus system made back more than 20 percent - $6.2 million - of its $30.2 million cost in 2009.

JTA says to be patient and that eventually the Skyway will be a success. The agency is counting on things breaking its way, such as vibrant downtown development and private entities who are willing to partner with JTA to expand the Skyway or build a transportation system that links to it.

Those things, though, didn't happen even in a roaring economy.

While running for mayor in 1991, Ed Austin said he wanted to stop construction on the nearly new system because of doubts it would ever work. As mayor, he changed his mind, in part because of fears - true to this day - that Washington would force JTA to pay back the money it had gotten.

Last month, Austin said he still thinks it was a mistake.

"It could work if you get more people downtown," he said. "But it would take a major revitalization of the downtown for that to happen."

Whose line is it, anyway?

Most of today's Skyway ridership appears to be on the northern section, between Hemming Plaza and Florida State College at Jacksonville.

Stations at Jefferson Street on the Northside and Riverplace Boulevard and Kings Avenue on the Southside are a good place to enjoy some peace and quiet.

A fire shut down the Riverplace station last year for several months until about $270,000 in repairs were made. No one seemed to notice, or care.

And yet it has its supporters.

Brian Presley takes the Skyway from San Marco to the Central Station most weekdays while commuting to his office in the Wachovia Building. It's cheaper for him take the Skyway than park in a downtown parking garage.

"I think the Skyway is a good idea that badly needs to be expanded," he said.

Beth Slater enjoys taking the Skyway from the Southbank into downtown, especially when she's showing the city to out-of-town visitors and newcomers.

"Occasionally I get the feeling I'm in a different city," Slater said, "or that Jacksonville has a grasp on public transit."

She just wishes the ride wasn't so short.

And that's the problem, said Ken Button, director of the Center for Transportation Policy, Operations and Logistics at George Mason University in Virginia. Urban people movers need to travel farther to be effective.

"It's the type of system that works great at Disneyland or at an airport when there are not other options available," Button said. "But people in downtown areas won't ride it when they have other options."

How, and why, it began

In the 1970s, local leaders thought they had a great idea.

Concerned with congestion on roads and toll bridges, air pollution and a lack of parking, Jacksonville transportation planners came to believe another option was needed for getting people into downtown.

The solution? A 4.4-mile people-mover system that would connect the medical centers on Eighth Street with Riverside, San Marco and the Gator Bowl.

The federal government was willing, having already put up money for similar elevated people movers in Miami and Detroit. And although Jacksonville wasn't able to get enough money to build the whole route, after years of twists and turns, it built the first stretch of the 2.5-mile downtown line that exists today.

Former Mayor Jake Godbold championed the Skyway and was in office when the city was awarded the first federal grant in 1985. He said he now regrets it.

"The business community thought it would help the downtown," Godbold said. "But if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have pushed for it."

The system was built on the assumption that growth would continue downtown and that didn't happen, said former Mayor Tommy Hazouri.

"We all assumed people would always come downtown to go shopping," he said. "We didn't anticipate something like the St. Johns Town Center."

JTA and the city should have focused on a system that took people from the suburbs into the downtown, Hazouri said.

Instead, JTA wanted the city to limit downtown parking, which it said would have encouraged people to take the Skyway. That plan made its way into some of the city's long-term comprehensive plans but was never enforced.

In fact, it was reversed.

Available parking has probably doubled in downtown since the 1980s, said Ron Barton, executive director of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission. Keeping cars out of downtown was never a priority, he said.

Then there was the stadium idea.

A line to the Gator Bowl was on JTA's initial plans and remained on the drawing board until as recently as 2002. JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock tabled it, saying the system needed to be successful before it expanded.

Former Mayor John Delaney said it should have been the other way around.

"The Skyway was built in the wrong place," he said, "and will not work until an extension is done to connect it to the football stadium."

Failure is not an option

Despite the Skyway's shortcomings, no local leader has called for it to be torn down.

It would probably cost tens of millions of dollars, and JTA estimates it would have to pay about $90 million back to the federal government if it did.

It would also hold the city back from getting money for projects it actually needs.

U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., the ranking Republican on the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said Jacksonville would struggle to get money for future public transit projects if it threw away the Skyway.

"It would go to the end of the line for everything," Mica said.

But that shouldn't be an issue, because there's nothing wrong with the Skyway, Mica said. It is supposed to connect to other modes of public transportation, those have never been built, and that is why the Skyway looks like a bad idea, he said.

"A lot of cities would love to have a system like the Skyway," Mica said "It would probably cost $500 million to install something similar today."

Blaylock said he would fight to keep the Skyway even if the federal government didn't care about getting its money back.

"Shutting down the Skyway is like turning your back on downtown," he said. "I can't do that."

But downtown may have already turned its back on the Skyway. Although the system needs downtown redevelopment to thrive, the feeling is not mutual.

Barton said its success or failure is not expected to have much impact on redevelopment. In fact, the Skyway's presence on Hogan Street may be making it harder to attract businesses downtown.

"Recognizing its marginal use," Barton said, "you certainly could make an argument that the Skyway has reduced the value of some properties it goes past."

What the future holds

Hazouri ties the success of the Skyway to efforts to revitalize downtown.

"Get people living and working downtown," Hazouri said, "and everything changes."

He's not alone in that view.

Steve Arrington, JTA director of resource management, said more people who work in the downtown are choosing to live closer to where they work. This is causing communities like Riverside, Springfield and San Marco to flourish. That will lead to more congested roads and parking downtown - and, Arrington believes, create a need for the Skyway with people parking at the Prime Osborn Convention Center parking lots and at the Kings Avenue parking garage on the Southside.

The Skyway has seen an uptick in ridership recently, and Arrington said that is largely due to more people living and working close to downtown.

Next, connecting the Skyway to other forms of transit is a necessity. Blaylock said that includes getting a commuter rail system built that will take people from the suburbs to the Prime Osborn - and getting federal money to build it.

A recent study found that a system could be built for about $600 million, and JTA hopes to get the money to build it within the next 10 years. Mica said JTA has a good chance because the Obama administration is pushing for more rail.

JTA might also pursue a fixed-rail trolley system to get downtown pedestrians to areas the Skyway does not go, such as Shands, EverBank Field and Riverside. A public-private partnership would be sought to get this done, Blaylock said.

The Metromover in Miami, which has a similar design to the Skyway, is a good model for eventual success Jacksonville, Mica said.

Opened in 1986 and extended in 1994, the 4.4-mile Metromover averaged 660,000 riders a month in 2009. The downtown system connects to Miami Metrorail, which goes to the outskirts of the city.

The Metromover, which cost $23.3 million to operate in 2009, is free of charge because of a half-penny sales tax Miami-Dade County voters passed in 2002.

The Skyway was also free of charge when it opened and, initially, ridership was at capacity. A month later, JTA began charging 25 cents, and ridership tanked.

Back in those days, former JTA Chairman Arnold Tritt, responding to continued criticism that the Skyway was costing too much, predicted that history would vindicate the agency.

"I really think in the year 2020, 2010 ... whenever," Tritt said, "people are going to say, 'What visionaries!' "

No one has, yet.

larry.hannan@jacksonville.com (904) 359-4470

Interesting tidbit I didn't know

Quotehe Skyway was also free of charge when it opened and, initially, ridership was at capacity. A month later, JTA began charging 25 cents, and ridership tanked.

SomeONE here has friends in local media and that is unfortunate. The person on this forum spreading those lies andencouraging this sort of article would make a great politician. I mean some of the lies were word for word, quote for quote...now it really isnt funny.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 07, 2010, 07:55:30 PM
For the shocker? I'll wager that the Skyway even as impotent as it is today, is still the highest (or damn close) Passenger Per Mile transit route in the City.

Ock, LOL.  I thought at first you were touting that the Skyway is the highest COST per passenger per mile!  It damn well better be the most traveled route miles in the JTA system.  Even so, it is still a financial disaster with its terrible return on investment as measured, not by dollars, but VALUE to the community.  But, then, I think most taxpayers already know that.  ;)

QuoteSomeONE here has friends in local media and that is unfortunate.

Don't know about that, but MJ has sat down with the City Council, Blaylock, The Mayor, editors, reporters, writers, camera crews etc. for the last 5 years. We have done studies that would have cost the city a cool million, and besides thousands of pages of public comment, several informational videos. So I wouldn't be at all surprised that some of these guys sound like Parrots, guess that means we ARE doing our jobs.


OCKLAWAHA

Well I hate the Gators I wish I had friends at the paper to help spread my hatred....but I dont know anyone at FTU. Bummer.

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 07, 2010, 02:20:11 PM

Quote from: exnewsman on September 07, 2010, 01:33:43 PM
What's wrong with the Stadium Shuttle that is currently available for Jaguars games? Sports Illustrated named it the NFL's top shuttle service a year or two ago. Seems to work pretty well to me. Much better than paying $20 and dealing with all the traffic.

ha ha ha ha ha Thats a good one.

Whats so funny about that a large number of people use the buses at the convention center including myself when I'm in town.  Lot easier than waiting for a slow moving people mover that holds a marginal number of people.  Thats why I asked what number of people could the riderless express move in a short period of time compared to the running of buses those 8 weeks.  Sure Ock could shed some light on that.  

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 07, 2010, 11:03:56 PM

QuoteSomeONE here has friends in local media and that is unfortunate.

Don't know about that, but MJ has sat down with the City Council, Blaylock, The Mayor, editors, reporters, writers, camera crews etc. for the last 5 years. We have done studies that would have cost the city a cool million, and besides thousands of pages of public comment, several informational videos. So I wouldn't be at all surprised that some of these guys sound like Parrots, guess that means we ARE doing our jobs.

I actually thought the article was reasonably balanced.  It captured most of the arguments, pro and con, posted in MJ threads.  This is likely due to the fact that the Skyway has thoroughly been debated here and in every forum in the community and among its citizens.

Any mimicking of MJ positions hopefully means MJ is doing its job at presenting BOTH sides of issues in the community.  Unfortunately, it doesn't help MJ, its readers, or the debate, that some resort to name calling and accusations toward those who disagree with their positions, calling opponents liars, manipulators with devious intentions, insincere, fabricators, avoiders, trolls, public saboteurs, dishonest presenters, etc.  This lack of substance only debases those hurling the accusations and shows the MJ moderators are asleep at the wheel.

lol

The TU article is making statements as fact, facts that are actually lies. Many old people still read news rags and will believe those lies as golden. Thats a very dangerous thing. Its kinda like Fox News & The PRESIDENT of the United States or Jacksonville Jaguars have no fans according to ESPN, Sport Illustrated & Radio Sports Talk....it creates a snowball of things that are just not true. Anyone that could co sign a rigged article has some real issues. Even MacGuyver thinks they rigged that article nicely.

Anyway Shwaz posted that in the wrong thread and we all are hijacking it.....back to the discussion.

Extention of Skyway to Sports Complex.

QuoteWhats the estimate cost of expanding the skyway out to the stadium/arena complex?  Who will be riding it?  The only way you'll get jaguar fans on it is if you do away with the bus service, and really its only 8 weekends a year.  What the max people it could transport in an hour and a half?    Lets face it after a couple hours of tailgating, then the game, the goal of most people is to get home.  Baseball games?  I doubt it, there is more than enough surface parking for those and most of the events in the arena.  Now the gator bowl and the fl-ga game I could see that working well.  But all that depends on the cost estimate.  I don't see expanding to the stadiums as being a panacea or even significantly increasing the ridership when taking the extra cost into account.

You're right, expanding the Skyway to the sports complex won't be a "panacea."  However, it will be a step in the right direction.  Whether we like it or not, the Skyway exists and, as I see it, the city (JTA) has three options.

1. Don't expand it and accept the fact that it will always lose money and will forever remain downtown's white elephant.
2. Tear it down and pretend it was all a bad dream.  
3. Bite the bullet and expand it to the sports complex in order to generate higher and consistent ridership and, in turn, more revenue.  

Sure, there will be costs associated with an expansion.  But that's much better than Option 1 (stagnant ridership and little chance of increased revenue) and Option 2 (re-paying the federal government millions of dollars in grant money as a penalty for dismantling the Skyway).  

Also, the use wouldn’t be limited to home football games.  What about events at Metro Park, concerts at the Arena, Jax Sun’s baseball games, Florida-Georgia game, and the Jax Fair?  As I've mentioned, there is a huge disconnect between the sports complex and the rest of downtown (Northbank, Landing and Southbank).  How great would it be if people actually used the outlining parking areas (including the Kings Avenue garage) and took the Skyway to the sports complex, with the option of stopping along the way at restaurants and nightclubs (and hopefully one day the Shipyards complex) that will surely begin the sprout up along the Bay Street and Forsyth Street corridors.    

Want to talk about misleading statements and unanswered questions, Stephen, why don't you address these:

-Skyway projections by the "experts" for the system as CURRENTLY BUILT, off 90+% after 20 years with no explanation.

-Multiple mayors wishing the system was never built but never did anything to contain the "damage".

-Original approving Congressional committee chair saying the whole project was nothing but pork barrel (Translation:  It was never thought to be viable and was only built as a political bone so we should not be surprised it isn't viable so far and should consider it never will be)

-City leaders saying it would enhance downtown development when now they say its proven to do just the opposite.

-Expenses off the charts when measured against original promises, comparable transit systems, or in absolute dollars per ride with no projections showing the results would change with additional investment.

-JTA not publishing on its web site for two years current financials.

-Your misrepresentation of my position on mass transit, roads, and just about anything else you throw about to distract from the real debate on the Skyway.

-Your unwillingness to account for the amortization through depreciation of all capital costs, whether up front, on a replacement basis, or as further investment in expansion.

-Lack of written documentation for public consumption establishing what happens with the Skyway if it's shut down and addressing the question, if its a failed DEMONSTRATION system, when and why we can't finally exit it without a penalty (its obvious this provision, IF it exists and IF there was any desire, politically, to enforce it, would not last forever).

-Why people movers like this have failed to meet anything close to cost-benefit expectations in every city (including cities with bigger populations and more developed mass transit systems) they have been built in and why no more are being built?

-Why ridership has gone down regardless of economic cycles?

-Why you reduce your arguments to name calling rather than tackle the above questions with fact based answers?

-Why you call out any opposing arguments on the Skyway lies but never state exactly what the lies are?  (A contributing factor may be your inability to distinguish opinions from statements of fact).

The reason you don't understand my desire to abandon the Skyway is because you don't understand how to financially and politically evaluate it in more than one light and think its success is just around the corner (now running on decades of such failed promises with no change in sight) rather than maybe never or, at best, decades and hundreds of millions dollars more in operating losses later.

Regardless, your emotionally charged position is akin to a baby crying because he can't have his way.  I can only LOL when I read your posts because they seem to be so much more self descriptive of your own antics and are way beyond being taken seriously.  I only bother to respond because new readers enter the fray regularly and I would hate for them to be left with only your take on things.  Now that would be misleading.   :D

Quote from: jacksoninjax on September 08, 2010, 01:24:04 AM
Sure, there will be costs associated with an expansion.  But that's much better than Option 1 (stagnant ridership and little chance of increased revenue) and Option 2 (re-paying the federal government millions of dollars in grant money as a penalty for dismantling the Skyway).  

Aaaahh....Jacksoninjax, therein is the crux of the issue.  Your statement, like other advocates of expansion, remains, presently, as pure speculation unless you have access to JTA's data, studies, projections, financials, etc. as well as to Federal agreements and insight into the politics of their stance on eventual abandonment and enforcement of any penalties.  No one on MJ really has much more to go on (based on their postings) than a few numbers on operating expenses from two years ago and the numbers cited in T-U articles regarding the original investment, etc.  Even if we had all the projected data, it must be viewed with a skeptical eye given the JTA's prior history of 90% shortfalls on such projections.  No doubt any mode of transit will find some appreciative riders for any conveyance or route, but can such traffic justify the costs to deliver it?  And, if their are other alternatives, such as streetcars, could these be more effective and efficient solutions vs. pouring more $$$ into the Skyway to do the same thing?

I suspect that if JTA could make the numbers work they would be pushing for expansion already.  It sure would be in their best interest to do so if it were true.  They cover over their current daily boondoggle and they get to run a bigger system which means more money and jobs in their organization.  Their failure to do so as the "experts" on the Skyway's economics makes me, for one, think they see it more my way than yours and are avoiding compounding the errors of their past ways.  For political reasons, I believe they are pressured to not admit so publicly.  Nor, will they publicly put the abandonment option on the table.  Which is wrong, because, until a full blown and aired analysis is made, no one knows for sure the best option.  I am merely advocating that the abandonment option remain on the table until such time as it is reasonably proven a better option exist and am rejecting a knee jerk reaction that abandonment can't possibly be the best option.  I would accept keeping the option open for expansion despite my common sense feelings to the contrary provided that it is not knee jerk to automatically assume that option is feasible.  Let JTA make their case and we can go from there.

[/quote]See what I mean?? Why you gotta be so pro automobile man? I never said get ride of all the lots. People should drive to the game, BUT people should also have the rail option. How is it an inconvenience?? Jags business is to sell the NFL experience.....SOME think its their job to sell wins. Suns provide the professional baseball experience. Options, options, options.....Some people take their boats to Jag games, some use Shuttle, some use their automobile like you...The Skyway is an option. The Best Option off keeping the consumer spending cash downtown. Especially once you remove the chore off driving around. I can assure you Sports Complex has ENOUGH parking spaces.

Quote

Coolyfett, you hit the nail on the head with your comment that the Skyway is an option.  Currently, after a game or concert, people are herded to their cars, sit in bumper to bumper traffic and then are essentially directed by the police to exit downtown as fast as they can.   The Skyway will transport visitors (consumers) through the heart of downtown rather than around it (which is what the current shuttle buses do).  This will encourage people to stop and explore the urban core (and spend money) prior to getting in their cars for the mad dash home.  Jacksoninjax

I noticed in pics of the Detroit and Koreon system and some others the cars where advertisements for the local news, Pepsi, and other things...how about selling ads on the skyway cars to boost revenue for an extension to the stadium area? It would also give the cars a facelift. I wouldnt be for it.

I'd plaster those things with ads in a heartbeat.  You can't complain about it being a money loser and then turn around and refuse to do things that will generate more revenue.

stjr........makes one very very valid point! That is without financials for the past two years regarding the $kyway, everyone is guessing or trying to come to a conclusion without enough information to work with! We know the turnstiles are not working...........so how would the actual ridership be judged? Current number discussed is  around 2K per day but how do we know this to be truthfull? We have an idea that it is around $7 Million a year to operate, if those numbers are from the JTA vault of incompetance, I would question them. At this point in time, with all of the discussion that has taken place........that is about all that we know and not really sure any of that information is accurate! It would seem to me, IMHO, we need JTA to come clean with some real time information so we can chose which way to go.......expand or demolish!

Demolish is not a realistic option. The real choices are do nothing, better utilize what exists or expand.

Sadly Lake undermine seems to be one of the options.

I'd plaster those things with ads in a heartbeat.  You can't complain about it being a money loser and then turn around and refuse to do things that will generate more revenue.

Exactly what I was thinking....no one uses it because its not usefu. Its not useful because we are not generateing income to expand it. I think finding alternative ways to fund expansion (advertisements, partys, what else?) could be the awnser.

And Lake is compltetely right- demelition is not a realalistic option. It would make us worse off then when we started and also make us the laughingstock of the modern world.

Quote from: triclops i on September 08, 2010, 06:12:06 PM
Exactly what I was thinking....no one uses it because its not useful. Its not useful because we are not generating income to expand it. I think finding alternative ways to fund expansion (advertisements, partys, what else?) could be the answer.

And Lake is completely right- demolition is not a realistic option. It would make us worse off then when we started and also make us the laughingstock of the modern world.

Actually people DO USE IT, and it is the heaviest traveled transit route PER MILE in North Florida, and perhaps the busiest this side of West Palm Beach.  Using the old passengers per mile rule of measure, the Skyway is well over the 1,000 PPM level even in the slower months of summer. The Skyway ridership figure dwarfs those of the more "flexible" bus system in a route by route comparison of PPM. You get what you pay for.


OCKLAWAHA

I just happened to be at City Hall tonight, zoning issue, went outside at about 1945 (sorry....0745 PM) and there just happened to be a $kyway car taking off from the station............two people were visible! How in hell do we come up with 2K riders per day? Unless people were laying on the floor.......two persons visible from street level!

Well, it would make an awesome inmate mover between the jail and the new courthouse when it opens!  At least, it would have an established and predictable ridership between Jaguar games. 

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 08, 2010, 09:46:56 PM
I just happened to be at City Hall tonight, zoning issue, went outside at about 1945 (sorry....0745 PM) and there just happened to be a $kyway car taking off from the station............two people were visible! How in hell do we come up with 2K riders per day? Unless people were laying on the floor.......two persons visible from street level!

Just the other day, well around 2am, I was on JTB and only saw one other car.  Those people who say JTB has congestion problems must be lying crooks who want to steal our money.


(note - that was sarcasm)

Quote from: thelakelander on September 08, 2010, 06:16:12 AM
I'd plaster those things with ads in a heartbeat.  You can't complain about it being a money loser and then turn around and refuse to do things that will generate more revenue.

Some of your ideas I have seen in real life and they work. So I have yet to see and wonder how are if they could work.

The Skyway train will not be shut down...people pushing for thats is comical....but if local media starts pushing that agendy then it may be trouble. I rode the Skyway a lot. It irritated me I couldnt take it home. The thing just aint done. Simple as that. Unfinished business. When they finish it and if it sux after that, then ill hate it like the minority duo here, but so far it cant be judged until its complete to Riverside, Sports Complex & Springfield. Finish it then count the numbers.

Quote from: jacksoninjax on September 08, 2010, 01:24:04 AM

QuoteWhats the estimate cost of expanding the skyway out to the stadium/arena complex?  Who will be riding it?  The only way you'll get jaguar fans on it is if you do away with the bus service, and really its only 8 weekends a year.  What the max people it could transport in an hour and a half?    Lets face it after a couple hours of tailgating, then the game, the goal of most people is to get home.  Baseball games?  I doubt it, there is more than enough surface parking for those and most of the events in the arena.  Now the gator bowl and the fl-ga game I could see that working well.  But all that depends on the cost estimate.  I don't see expanding to the stadiums as being a panacea or even significantly increasing the ridership when taking the extra cost into account.

You're right, expanding the Skyway to the sports complex won't be a "panacea."  However, it will be a step in the right direction.  Whether we like it or not, the Skyway exists and, as I see it, the city (JTA) has three options.

1. Don't expand it and accept the fact that it will always lose money and will forever remain downtown's white elephant.
2. Tear it down and pretend it was all a bad dream. 
3. Bite the bullet and expand it to the sports complex in order to generate higher and consistent ridership and, in turn, more revenue. 

Sure, there will be costs associated with an expansion.  But that's much better than Option 1 (stagnant ridership and little chance of increased revenue) and Option 2 (re-paying the federal government millions of dollars in grant money as a penalty for dismantling the Skyway). 

Also, the use wouldn’t be limited to home football games.  What about events at Metro Park, concerts at the Arena, Jax Sun’s baseball games, Florida-Georgia game, and the Jax Fair?  As I've mentioned, there is a huge disconnect between the sports complex and the rest of downtown (Northbank, Landing and Southbank).  How great would it be if people actually used the outlining parking areas (including the Kings Avenue garage) and took the Skyway to the sports complex, with the option of stopping along the way at restaurants and nightclubs (and hopefully one day the Shipyards complex) that will surely begin the sprout up along the Bay Street and Forsyth Street corridors.     

Thats basically what everyone has been saying. +1

I forgot about the Fair

Nice Charles!

(http://mumbai.thecityfix.com/files/2010/03/wi-drive.jpg)
It's a motor coach folks, not to be confused with a bus.

Touche Charles + 2

I am always half tickled and half embarrassed by the citizens that see one bus at some odd time of day or night and complain that they "KNOW" nobody rides. Sort of reminds me of the American who visited Medellin and exclaimed to his friends, "All the Colombian's walk in single file... at least the two I saw did."

This evening I was one block east of the Greyhound Station on Forsyth, it was raining lightly and the X4 (MCI COACH) express to Orange Park stopped at the opposite curb. It was somewhere around 1700 hours (uh, 5 O:Clock PM) as I observed 8 passengers (all of which appeared to be professionals, suits, dresses, etc.) board and use a commuter pass. The driver seemed to know everyone by name and they had quite the good time boarding as she was all smiles. I'm here to tell you that THAT bus was packed, I couldn't make out a single empty seat from my sidewalk vantage point. Deja vu, for a second I was back in Aguacatala watching the commuter crush in a typical Colombian evening. Imagine if these coaches (not buses - BIG difference) were newer, ordered in a business tour style... Wow.

Plug all of this into the Skyway at expanded end points, streetcar, and commuter rail and watch the economics and rider demographics start to change throughout downtown. If these professional types are flocking to a less then excellent Coach, then God knows they would jump on a BIZ-BUS in a stampede. The Skyway is one of the keys to future success of the whole system and we ignore it to our own peril.


OCKLAWAHA

Ock +1..............as usual!

"It was somewhere around 1700 hours (uh, 5 O:Clock PM) as I observed 8 passengers (all of which appeared to be professionals, suits, dresses, etc.) board and use a commuter pass."

8 passengers, alert the Press!!

QuoteIt was somewhere around 1700 hours (uh, 5 O:Clock PM) as I observed 8 passengers (all of which appeared to be professionals, suits, dresses, etc.) board and use a commuter pass. The driver seemed to know everyone by name and they had quite the good time boarding as she was all smiles. I'm here to tell you that THAT bus was packed, I couldn't make out a single empty seat from my sidewalk vantage point.

Let's not take things out of context.

You're not a reporter, are you? ;)

Nope!

However, if every downtown stop was like the one I witnessed - and I believe that the Courthouse stop is a bus filler all by itself, then these "express" buses are landing VERY CLOSE to the target market. A bit of improvement in comforts and business friendliness and JTA would have a runaway winner.


OCKLAWAHA

Today is the perfect day to have this system at the sports complex

Coolyfett....+1! Would, coulda, shoulda! JTA is pathetic!

I'm not sure who is in control of the Skyway but if I had control of the Skyway I would dismantle it (not sure its possible) and SELL it to a city that actually would utilize it and with the profit invest in a Streetcar system that benefits the entire urban core. Don't think it would actually happen, but I like to let my imagination run loose. Not to mention the fact that the thing is hidious!

Quote from: arb on September 13, 2010, 11:04:15 PM
I'm not sure who is in control of the Skyway but if I had control of the Skyway I would dismantle it (not sure its possible) and SELL it to a city that actually would utilize it and with the profit invest in a Streetcar system that benefits the entire urban core. Don't think it would actually happen, but I like to let my imagination run loose. Not to mention the fact that the thing is hidious!

Arb, +1,000 (that's to offset all the minuses you may find forthcoming  ;) )

Quote from: stjr on September 13, 2010, 11:51:47 PM

Quote from: arb on September 13, 2010, 11:04:15 PM
I'm not sure who is in control of the Skyway but if I had control of the Skyway I would dismantle it (not sure its possible) and SELL it to a city that actually would utilize it and with the profit invest in a Streetcar system that benefits the entire urban core. Don't think it would actually happen, but I like to let my imagination run loose. Not to mention the fact that the thing is hidious!

Arb, +1,000 (that's to offset all the minuses you may find forthcoming  ;) )

LOL thanks ;)

Interesting proposition but we would still be on the hook for paying +$90 million back to the feds for shutting it down. 

Quote from: thelakelander on September 14, 2010, 06:14:00 AM
Interesting proposition but we would still be on the hook for paying +$90 million back to the feds for shutting it down. 

True!

Quote from: stephendare on September 14, 2010, 01:13:08 AM

Quote from: arb on September 14, 2010, 12:20:41 AM

Quote from: stjr on September 13, 2010, 11:51:47 PM

Quote from: arb on September 13, 2010, 11:04:15 PM
I'm not sure who is in control of the Skyway but if I had control of the Skyway I would dismantle it (not sure its possible) and SELL it to a city that actually would utilize it and with the profit invest in a Streetcar system that benefits the entire urban core. Don't think it would actually happen, but I like to let my imagination run loose. Not to mention the fact that the thing is hidious!

Arb, +1,000 (that's to offset all the minuses you may find forthcoming  ;) )

LOL thanks ;)

It sounds clever on the face of it Arb, but you are still faced with the conundrum of how to replace the transit bridge over the river without spending twice as much money as simply utilizing the system correctly.

Yeah I do agree. I think there are better alternatives than a Skyway (for example, Seattles light rail link), but honestly I would rather have a Skyway that is being used correctly than none at all. It was just an idea, not like it would happen. Best thing is complete the Skyway and utilize it the correct way through DT and have a Streetcar system through-out the urban core!

I ride the buses and the skyrail fairly regularly, and have seen both of them packed.  I've also ridden both and felt like I was the only passenger.  It varies.  I take WS12 home (OPM Shuttle) and there are quite a few people who ride it from the AT&T building, but that's not the majority.
About the skyway.....  I do feel that it should be expanded to the sports complex, but I don't like the path it would have to take down bay st.  Do you really want an elevated rail running down the corridor of the city?  I do like the idea of a ground level trolley, though, with quick headways and stops at the bars, shipyards, the jail, metro park and of course the sports complex.  Think how you could tie it in with the Train Condos that are already there. :)  The skyway imo when expanded needs to be for springfield and 5 points.

Skyway running done Bay Street would have no issues on my end. Im not for trolleys because they run at grade. Its better to have a system with its own right of way

Bay St isn't usually all that crowded, and they have how many lanes, 4 - 5?  One of those could easily be dedicated for rail.