Metro Jacksonville

Looks like they're planning to expand to Jax. in the future

http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/south-florida-travel/2010/09/02/luxury-bus-debuts-with-40-orlando-miami-roundtrip/

Interesting.  I wonder what type of profit are they making off such a service.

Greyhound?

The interior looks like a train....  Wait!  I have an idea!  We could use trains instead of busses to connect Florida's cities.

Quote from: Jason on September 03, 2010, 12:18:46 PM
The interior looks like a train....  Wait!  I have an idea!  We could use trains instead of busses to connect Florida's cities.

that is a good long-term idea....but in the meantime, this is an inexpensive service using existing (and available) infrastructure

They could run these buses between Jax and Tallhassee during the legislative sessions and stay full!  Leave Jax at 6:00am to be in Tally at 9:00am.  Have returns in the late afternoon getting here by 7:00pm.

Why does it take someone from South America to teach us how to run a transportation system?

because no other country in the world has auto ownership like the U.S.

True tufsu........so why ain't we educating the public? Better yet..........the US maybe ahead on the auto ownership, but we have nothing else to take its place...........like rail maybe?

Quote from: thelakelander on September 03, 2010, 09:22:16 AM
Interesting.  I wonder what type of profit are they making off such a service.

GEE JTA? Where could I have heard an idea like this before? Might it have been when I sat down with your director and planners and spelled this out for you suggesting Ponte Vedra/Beaches, Fernandina/Amelia Island Plantation, etc?

WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE LISTEN!

Lake, this is extremely popular in the few markets where it has been tried. This doesn't target the "TRANSIT REGULARS," rather it targets the upper economic end of the automobile commuters as a group. Movers and shakers that once sold, could win friends and $$ to our system locally.

I want to direct your attentions to:

Quote
"We're trying to get people out of their Mercedes or Lexus, people who wouldn't ride public transit," said company Chief Executive Officer Gary Bauer.

Each route will have just a handful of stops. To deal with the spread-out urban geography of the South Bay, the stops are located near prominent companies or transit hubs. The Sunnyvale stop, for example, is at North Mathilda and Fifth avenues, near Juniper Networks, Lockheed Martin and a light rail station for the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority.

"We're not here to take people away from public transit," Bauer said. "We're not trying to step on anyone's toes. We want to complement what they do."

SOURCE:
SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE
http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-03-02/news/17212606_1_bus-service-bus-lines-new-bus
http://www.bauerswi-drive.org/

JTA already operates 3 MCI (Greyhound Style) motor coaches on select express routes, they have been popular for the longer commutes because of their over-the-road design and greatly superior ride qualities. So with such a great start, coaches as good (opinion) as those of Bauer, what has JTA done?

Runs them on a couple of schedules in the morning, and a couple in the evening, otherwise they sit all day.

Ordered them with low-end intercity seats.

No Wifi

No Restroom

No Snack Bar/Coffee Bar

No 110 volt outlets

Basically NO AMENITIES AT ALL, So close but no cigar boys and girls.

Today the JTA coaches are becoming high mileage liabilities, due for a change out. JTA could win this contest by ordering coaches such as Silver Eagle, Prevosts-Volvo, VanHool, Setra, or newer MCI's. Order at least 6 of them and make sure to check "all whistles and bells" on those orders. JTA itself would then be in a position to offer a premium regional service immediately and as rail comes on line, a premium service to new markets unreached by rail.

I also want to go on record as WARNING JTA AND COJ that our Jacksonville Terminal Station downtown (the temple that y'all call the Prime Osbourne or JRTC) as drawn conceptually calls for a "NEW GREYHOUND STATION".
This is another Jacksonville move that is so shortsighted that it makes me gag. You boys and girls do know that TRAILWAYS is still around don't you? How about LA CUBANA which stops at highway SR 210/I-95 daily with it's luxury buses that link Miami and NYC and Miami and Chicago? What about Auto-Bus with it's unique "auto-train" like automobile delivery service and first class tour coaches? Uh ever see those big red ANNETT coaches? Oh and Southeastern Stages could probably be convinced we are a transit center too...

We can't afford more "transit stupid!" See for yourselves:

http://www.auto-bus.com/
http://www.lacubanabus.com/services.html
http://www.annettbuslines.com/
http://www.martzfirstclass.com/  (Trailways)
http://www.southeasternstages.com/Home.html

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, JTA can't do that.  

Did you read this article?  http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-09-03/story/tea-party-city-hall-spending-must-slow-down  This is probably one of the most positively commented article in the TU.  

If JTA designs the buses like that, it will look like Luxury buses that are a waste of tax payer dollars that will be trumped throughout the city.  Even if the dollar figures are realistically small, people like those who commented there don't care.  So before we can get buses like these, you need to convince them why this is a wise use of tax dollars since they make up a large vocal group of people in this city.  

I would like to know the Tea Party's position on sprawl and its impact on our city financially.  Complaining about spending money fix up a park is one thing.  However, that expense is peanuts compared to our real bull in the china room.  Any idea on their position towards reigning in unsustainable low density growth and the saving of taxpayer money being spent to support that sinking ship that come along with it?  Have they made any comments on the Collins Road interchange, Atlantic/Kernan Overpass, New Kings Road Overpass or Outer Beltway?  How about encouraging more density to help reduce the coverage area by police and fire?

Too simple of a solution lake! Maybe we should require all JTA employee's (boss's/planners) to ride what they tout as the panecea for mass transit? I would be money that middle management up has never set foot on a bus to see first hand the fruits of their labors!

I think JTA knows how bad our bus system is and they are trying to keep it that way on purpose mostly for show and tell.  As long as they look poor, they pass under the radar. 

Public transportation for some reason get's a bad name today.  I have no idea what happened between the 1900's and today but something caused a lot of Americans to think that buses are a "waste" of tax payer dollars and if a city has to have one - it's only for the poor people - so it should be funded, designed, and look like a transportation system for poor people.

cityimrov.............if that is JTA's goal.......I would say they have achieved that goal! I have heard rumors that JTA is set up to deliberately lose money on the public side, or at least what looks like losing, when in reality they are making money hand over fist behind the public doors! I am trying to confirm just which it is.....for my own personnel edification. Don't know how much luck I will have but need to make the effort.......if it is the latter, that would explain one hell of alot!

Quote from: cityimrov on September 03, 2010, 11:39:06 PM
Ock, JTA can't do that.  

Did you read this article?  http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-09-03/story/tea-party-city-hall-spending-must-slow-down  This is probably one of the most positively commented article in the TU.  

If JTA designs the buses like that, it will look like Luxury buses that are a waste of tax payer dollars that will be trumped throughout the city.  Even if the dollar figures are realistically small, people like those who commented there don't care.  So before we can get buses like these, you need to convince them why this is a wise use of tax dollars since they make up a large vocal group of people in this city.  

I beg to differ my friend, in fact if JTA doesn't take some bold steps and soon they might be out of the mass transit business forever. Highway builder? Probably. Skyway operator? Probably not. Bus system operator? Not a chance of a snowball in hell.

JTA doesn't need to design a thing, most any over the road coach builder can lay out the floor plans and/or bring a demo model down that would be very close to whatever we desired. Interesting that you call them "luxury buses," because while they might be marketed that way, they are really no different from the old Trailways "Golden Eagle" buses from 1956. I would go after the business market here in Jacksonville, and 6 coaches like this could not only protect the long commute schedules, but would be of fantastic value to the Chamber of Commerce, mayor, council, and anyone else interested in marketing our city. I would equip them with fax/copier, wifi, restrooms, coffee/snack bar (leased out to a vendor and occupying a two seat space in the rear of the coach) 110 volt outlets at EVERY seat, TV monitors, overhead cabinets, headphone music choices, 6 tables with 24 facing seats. The whole idea being that the coach becomes your extended office or living room to and from work or play. It's a concept that worked in 1956 and is working again today as it is being reinvented.

Also JTA is a STATE organization and NOT a COJ operation. The city does assist with it's operations budget but then Tallahassee and Washington DC put WAY more into our transit system capital costs then we locals do. This would be via a Federal/State grant for new equipment. Since these coaches have never been tried in a urban Florida market it should be fairly easy to sell the concept to FDOT and the FTA. I will bet they would be more then just a little interested in the programs success, everybody in the Southeast will be watching.

QuoteStill, First Coast Tea Party Executive Director Billie Tucker said there is more work to be done. She referenced the recently unveiled plans to spend $3.1 million refurbishing Friendship Fountain, saying she'd have no problem if so many people - including herself - could afford to remodel their own homes.

"Sharpen your pencils. Roll up your sleeves. Get behind closed doors and do what you've got to do," Tucker said. "Because we know there's waste."

Now these idiots want us to board up the fountain? I think this speaks to backwardness of these neanderthal minions.

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 04, 2010, 06:43:16 PM
cityimrov.............if that is JTA's goal.......I would say they have achieved that goal! I have heard rumors that JTA is set up to deliberately lose money on the public side, or at least what looks like losing, when in reality they are making money hand over fist behind the public doors! I am trying to confirm just which it is.....for my own personnel edification. Don't know how much luck I will have but need to make the effort.......if it is the latter, that would explain one hell of alot!

Well CS, I'll tell you that if you think JTA is making money, even a little bit of money, I've got a swamp I'll sell you!  It just doesn't happen in mass transit, doesn't happen ANYWHERE in the world except for the mega-dense cities of the Orient and even then it's not all "easy money." Y'all don't need to go confirm this anywhere, trust me you can do the math yourself.

TRANSIT FORMULA - 75% of your cost is labor, 25% of your costs are covered by the farebox. Not much room for high profit in that!

Go figure, $500,000 dollars for a new city bus (though many new hybrids cost closer to a Million each). At least $50,000 per year (again I'm cheap here) x 4 drivers just to cover the three daily shifts plus off days and/or sick days. That's about $411 dollars a day in labor alone.

FARE: ONE DOLLAR
TYPICAL JTA DAILY RIDERSHIP PER ROUTE: ABOUT !,500-3,000

Solution? Guy's, even if this bus could be made to run off of dirty bath water and emit only pure mountain air you are about to lose your ass if you own it! The economics don't change all that much for trains either. Just to
be fair airplanes would all be flying backward too if the tax payer didn't cover MOST of their expenses. AMTRAK? hey move over because we are just a fuel pump short of having AMBUS and AMPLANE.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on September 04, 2010, 06:58:05 AM
I would like to know the Tea Party's position on sprawl and its impact on our city financially.  Complaining about spending money fix up a park is one thing.  However, that expense is peanuts compared to our real bull in the china room.  Any idea on their position towards reigning in unsustainable low density growth and the saving of taxpayer money being spent to support that sinking ship that come along with it?  Have they made any comments on the Collins Road interchange, Atlantic/Kernan Overpass, New Kings Road Overpass or Outer Beltway?  How about encouraging more density to help reduce the coverage area by police and fire?

easy....taking away or restricting people's choice to buy/develop in the suburbs would be seen as a bad thing..and making investments in urban areas would be a problem...now they might stand behind no investment at all, but the generl public wouldn't support that for long....and much of the political power in the U.S. these days come from suburbs of metro areas.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 04, 2010, 06:58:05 AM
I would like to know the Tea Party's position on sprawl and its impact on our city financially.  Complaining about spending money fix up a park is one thing.  However, that expense is peanuts compared to our real bull in the china room.  Any idea on their position towards reigning in unsustainable low density growth and the saving of taxpayer money being spent to support that sinking ship that come along with it?  Have they made any comments on the Collins Road interchange, Atlantic/Kernan Overpass, New Kings Road Overpass or Outer Beltway?  How about encouraging more density to help reduce the coverage area by police and fire?

I share quite a few sentiments with the Tea Party. I also find what I read here to be very logical, and the benefits of urban density and transit are apparent once a person takes the time to consider the economic realities so often presented.

Fiscal conservatism need not be exclusively opposed to transit investment. In fact, the opposite when considering the overall cost of road building. Many conservatives have not considered the cost of road building vs transit such as busses or rail. Those costs are not limited to dollars, but even based on a dollar per dollar perspective, you might find more allies than you seem to think.

We had business in Korea in the early '90's and rode the motor coaches from city to city.  Movie screen in the front (Saw "Red Heat" dubbed in Korean and understood it all!).  Cocktail bar in back.  Leather seats that reclined almost fully.  Great way to travel!

Off the subject, have never understood why Korea isn't more of a tourist destination.  Beautiful country, lots of history, really friendly, outgoing people.

If we had buses like that, the complaint over the over - luxurious spending would be on the front page news.  The city would be in national news about the overspending of buses.  

Ock has a point that realistically - it wouldn't cost too that much more to make the buses nicer.  The problem is that people don't care about reality.  To a certain group of people, IF IT LOOKS EXPENSIVE - IT IS EXPENSIVE.  The general public would then get caught up into that since that argument is easier to understand then looking at the bus budget.  Most people hate staring at budget numbers so you need to educate them by mass media campaign and that's a massive undertaking for a transit agency.  Don't worry, people will then massively complain about why the agency is wasting money on ad's (ask JEA).   

Even if JTA is funded mostly by state or federal dollars, most people don't care.  They think the agency is funded by their city tax dollars and the city will get blame over anything the agency does.

Quote from: cityimrov on September 05, 2010, 08:09:42 PM
If we had buses like that, the complaint over the over - luxurious spending would be on the front page news.  The city would be in national news about the overspending of buses.  

Ock has a point that realistically - it wouldn't cost too that much more to make the buses nicer.  The problem is that people don't care about reality.  To a certain group of people, IF IT LOOKS EXPENSIVE - IT IS EXPENSIVE.  The general public would then get caught up into that since that argument is easier to understand then looking at the bus budget.  Most people hate staring at budget numbers so you need to educate them by mass media campaign and that's a massive undertaking for a transit agency.  Don't worry, people will then massively complain about why the agency is wasting money on ad's (ask JEA).   

Even if JTA is funded mostly by state or federal dollars, most people don't care.  They think the agency is funded by their city tax dollars and the city will get blame over anything the agency does.

As a transportation planner, if I became director of mass transit tomorrow for JTA, this would be in the works by next weekend. When the heavy hitters of the area business, industry and sports start explaining how nice it is to abandon the Lexus and "Ride the Eagle" the opinions of the city would become a choir of praise. I'd take that risk and stake my reputation on it with a challenge to ride it once and talk about it twice. Branded with a name like "The Eagle" "The American Enterprise" "Freedom Coach" etc.. Jaxson's would place their hands over their hearts when the thing drove by.

OCKLAWAHA