Metro Jacksonville

Trimming the Fat: How to reduce the cost of JTA's BRT

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Metro Jacksonville takes a closer look at JTA's $25 million plan for BRT on Philips Highway and presents an affordable non-federal funding assistance seeking alternative.


Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-sep-trimming-the-fat-how-to-reduce-the-cost-of-jtas-brt-

I think you could trim the fat by firing anyone at the JTA that supports the current concept of damaging commuter rail with parallel BRT routes.

BRT is a freaking joke. I'm amazed the COJ would waste such valuable dollars in poor economic times on crap like this.

I doubt any JTA employee would ride BRT if the system was built.  That should be their first indicator that the system is a bad idea.  A chef wouldn't sell a meal that he wouldn't eat, so why should a transit official create a system that they wouldn't be willing to use?

Are there even sidewalks on the majority of that route? Sounds too dangerous to even walk to the stops

Quote from: Actionville on September 02, 2010, 09:54:10 AM
Are there even sidewalks on the majority of that route? Sounds too dangerous to even walk to the stops

It isn't that bad and good transit could really positively impact that area. I just am not much of a believer in BRT having that kind of impact.

Who the hell is going to use the stop at JTB? How could you even get there without being killed? JTB is as anti pedestrian as it could possibly get! Let's hope for this not to happen until after the election, Maybe we can thwart this awful plan with competent officials.

The few people that do vote in Duval are probably friends with those who run and win. Is there a way MJ could hold a voter registration drive to get more like minded people out there for election day? We could hole drives in areas like Springfield, riverside (five points in particular), Avendale, San marco and even Murray Hill. Sprawlling areas like baymeadows, Tinceltown, Argyle etc are too far gone. They love their cars way too much, no need to focus in these places. If anybody knows how to go about such a project, let me know. I need to fill my time with constructive activities.

Stephendare touched on what I think is our big hurdle to killing the bad BRT plans in another thread.  The JTA at one point saw BRT as doable and fixed rail as a real crap-shoot in terms of being able to get it done.  So they invested money time and reputation into BRT. They are smart people and know if given the choice between fixed rail (commuter, light and streetcar) and Buses meant to imitate the fixed rail solutions that fixed rail is Superior.  Fixed rail will be more bang for the buck, spur infill, smart development, attract riders and enhance the quality of life in ways that are just in a diffrent league than BRT. So why you ask do they continue to push BRT? To justify the last 10 or 15 years they have dedicated to it. I am sure that the loss of the large system of bus only lanes they championed hurt pride and reputation.

I just wish they could say "you know fixed rail is possible now so we are going to change tact".  We need people in the JTA who are not responsible for the BRT mess and can move on with no baggage.  I am sure the current people at the JTA want to bring fixed rail here they are just carring the baggage of their old plan in hopes to have justified the time and resources they have already put into BRT.
We need to be great not second rate.  If it is risky and hard so be it.

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Just bend the BRT away from the FEC RY and watch how quick I'll support it, whistles, bells and all!

San Jose anyone? Southside? JTB? Beach?

Trolley bus? On the 10 minute headways routes would cut our maintenance expense WAY DOWN! Matter of fact, electric is FAR cheaper to maintain over the long haul. Thousands, maybe Millions cheaper.


OCKLAWAHA

Agree.

Another well thought article (expose'?) from the great minds at MetroJacksonville!

I'm sure the fine folks at JTA are reading now, and reconsidering for the sake of doing that which is right.

JTA can not plan their way out of a closet! Infact I wish they would come out of the closet and get in touch with reality! BRT on Philips is a waste of resources, Federal Funds are still our tax dollars .......and JTA is busy wasting it! The bovines just don't get it...........more interested in creating more concrete related transit when it has been shown over and over...........rail does more....period ......end of discussion! WTF?

here's a thought...and let me preface it by saying I'm not ncessarily supporting BRT....

It has been made abundantly clear to some of us and many leaders that there needs to be better transit service for the folks on the northside to get to the jobs on the southside.

The north-south BRT line (with 10-15 minute headways) serves this purpose....what other options are there?

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 02, 2010, 04:02:17 PM
here's a thought...and let me preface it by saying I'm not ncessarily supporting BRT....

It has been made abundantly clear to some of us and many leaders that there needs to be better transit service for the folks on the northside to get to the jobs on the southside.

The north-south BRT line (with 10-15 minute headways) serves this purpose....what other options are there?

Rail it runs through the northside and runs through the southside.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 02, 2010, 09:49:51 AM
I doubt any JTA employee would ride BRT if the system was built.  That should be their first indicator that the system is a bad idea.  A chef wouldn't sell a meal that he wouldn't eat, so why should a transit official create a system that they wouldn't be willing to use?

+1

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 02, 2010, 04:08:11 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 02, 2010, 04:02:17 PM
here's a thought...and let me preface it by saying I'm not ncessarily supporting BRT....

It has been made abundantly clear to some of us and many leaders that there needs to be better transit service for the folks on the northside to get to the jobs on the southside.

The north-south BRT line (with 10-15 minute headways) serves this purpose....what other options are there?

Rail it runs through the northside and runs through the southside.

commuter rail will run on 30-60 minute headways on the southside...and the north part will take a good bit of work....will that cut it?

Yes and you know it.
Do you think so?

Is the JTA plan to run the northside BRT buses on to the southside?  Or make people transfer downtown?

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 02, 2010, 08:14:56 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 02, 2010, 04:08:11 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 02, 2010, 04:02:17 PM
here's a thought...and let me preface it by saying I'm not ncessarily supporting BRT....

It has been made abundantly clear to some of us and many leaders that there needs to be better transit service for the folks on the northside to get to the jobs on the southside.

The north-south BRT line (with 10-15 minute headways) serves this purpose....what other options are there?

Rail it runs through the northside and runs through the southside.

commuter rail will run on 30-60 minute headways on the southside...and the north part will take a good bit of work....will that cut it?

You should be able to cut it with 30-60 minute headways and complementing cheap 10-15 minute bus service without all the bells and whistles.  What's proposed can be considered overkill, especially when it comes down to timing.

as I understand it, the BRT line will run from north to south, going through downtown on Broad and Jefferson

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 02, 2010, 08:18:55 PM
Yes and you know it.
Do you think so?

I do think 30-60 minutes could work...but average commuter rail fares of $3-$5 won't for those who are transit dependent

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 02, 2010, 09:13:25 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 02, 2010, 08:18:55 PM
Yes and you know it.
Do you think so?

I do think 30-60 minutes could work...but average commuter rail fares of $3-$5 won't for those who are transit dependent

Interesting point. I do want to serve the transit dependant but I also want to shape development and attract riders who are not transit dependant. Rail IMO would do a better job of that than BRT.

Commuter rail and reliable bus service without real-time information, TSP and queue jumps should suffice.  That will bring you some redevelopment potential from rail and connectivity between rail stops and destinations not within walking distance of them.

Hey JTA, how about TWO Southeast BRT routes?

Tell ya what,

We scrap the current plan for Philips, but NOT the Southeast Corridor.

We go with 15 minute headways on TWO routes.

We make the densely populated San Jose route drop to every 30 minutes after 9:30 pm, AND every 45 minutes from midnight to 5:00 am, hence back to 30 minutes until 6:00 am, and right back to 15 minutes again.

We tie both routes into coordinated connections at each major cross street station.

We make FREE TRANSFERS A SYSTEM WIDE POLICY.

We skip "REAL TIME INFORMATION" and exchange it for basics like excellent lighting, bike racks, shade, trash cans, landscaping, and cleanliness.

We brand both routes, with the eastern route matching up with similar JTB, Beach blvd, Arlington Expy/Atlantic lines all the way to the beaches.

We actually link up with the SKYWAY and the commuter rail on the FLORIDA EAST COAST plus any Southside AMTRAK station development.

We spend our extra dimes on interior amenities that make the bus better then driving, such as WI-FI, 110 volt outlets at every seat, bag racks, 4 tables with facing seats.

Then just make me the director of mass transit, and hey, you've got TRANSIT!  ::)

OCKLAWAHA  ;D

nice plans Ock....a couple of issues/questions

1. Some have "railed" against the Philips Hwy plan with statements like nobody lives or works there....which isn't quite true as there are plenty of jobs along the corridor and many more within 1/4 mile....but a route down San Jose doesn't really serve any employment centers....so it doesn't help with the north-south home-work issue.

2. We've been debating whether the east line should use the Hart Bridge/Expwy or the Mathews/Arlington Expwy.....there is virtually nothing along the Hart Expwy. and Arlington needs some serious help....so the thought would be to run BRT down State/Union, acrosss the Mathews Bridge, over to Regency, and then Southside....from there one line can continue down Southside while another line goes east on Beach.

btw...the routes I just outlined are what JTA is planning and consistent with the 2035 TPO LRTP

I wonder if its better to look at JTB as the long term east/west solution over Beach Blvd?  Transit ridership is at its highest when it directly connects riders to major destinations.  While Beach is the centralized corridor, the Southside's major employment, retail, medical and educational destinations all line JTB.  A part of me feels like JTB should be looked at as the major transit spine to the Beach with secondary north/south (Southside, St Johns Bluff, Kernan, Hodges, San Pablo, A1A) and east/west spines (Atlantic, Beach, Wonderwood) on the other roads.

I agree Lake and have gone back and forth myself many times.

The problem w/ JTB is you still need north/south connections to access the shopping and employment....and would need to go up A1A to reach the heart of Jax. Beach.

Beach Blvd, meanwhile, still has a large ROW (even with 6 lanes)...so dedicated lanes and/or signal queue jumps could be implemented.

You'll still need north/south connections on both.  There's also decent ROW on JTB.  However, on JTB, you'll directly connect with Southpoint, St. Lukes, Deerwood Park, SJTC, UNF, Allstate and Mayo Clinic.  On Beach, the only thing you directly hit is FCCJ and downtown Jax Beach.  Everything else is low density suburban sprawl at its worst.  How about a JTB/San Pablo/Beach Blvd route to tap into the heart of Jax Beach, while directly serving where people actually go on the Southside?

Quote from: thelakelander on September 03, 2010, 09:18:53 AM
How about a JTB/San Pablo/Beach Blvd route to tap into the heart of Jax Beach, while directly serving where people actually go on the Southside?

now that might be ideal

Or perhaps you could use 3rd Street (A1A) as the north/south connection instead of San Pablo. 

I am deeply impressed with the fact that (a) you guys care enough to actually STUDY this esoteric transport stuff AND come up with what reads like doable,  more sensible alternatives.  I've never been very impressed with the proposals I've seen coming out of JTA.  That makes me wonder who they are responsible to.  Must be the politician who appointed them, because is sure doesn't seem to be us, the people.

Keep banging on the drum; more people are hearing it every day.  Eventually, enough caring people will join with you and MAKE something happen. 

Quote from: tayana42 on September 03, 2010, 11:36:37 PM
I've never been very impressed with the proposals I've seen coming out of JTA.  That makes me wonder who they are responsible to. 

Developers, landowners.

Quote from: finehoe on September 04, 2010, 10:36:22 AM

Quote from: tayana42 on September 03, 2010, 11:36:37 PM
I've never been very impressed with the proposals I've seen coming out of JTA.  That makes me wonder who they are responsible to.

Developers, landowners.

Don't forget the "Nifty Fifty"! The actual taxpayer in the trenches comes in a distant third.....maybe!

are you implying that the Nifty Fifty and developers aren't taxpayers?

It's not JTA's fault that they are a government agency and therefore intrinsically incapable of being efficient or pleasing customers.

tufsu.............the Nifty Fifty and developers employ tax lawyers and accountants up the wazoo to keep from paying! I am not saying they don't pay, but if they pay what they should rather than what they do.....that trickle down theory might work!

Quote from: urbanlibertarian on September 05, 2010, 03:40:40 PM
It's not JTA's fault that they are a government agency and therefore intrinsically incapable of being efficient or pleasing customers.

Agreed but it is the public's fault that Government operates this way.  The public says do everything on the cheap and never excel.  Just do whatever lowers taxes and looks good on this hour's budget.  If it will last or stand out then we may have spent a dollar too much for election time.

Government projects are almost always more costly that their private sector counterparts. I would not say the public is clamoring for doing things "on the cheap".

Now sprawl is what the public has voted for, right here in our home town. Sprawl is yet another example of the public voting for a more costly alternative.

Land away from an urban core is often cheaper by the acre, but new infrastructure spreading to kingdom come is not.

What people really want is the best of the best, on someone else's dime.

More cost effective solutions from any government would be nice also big guy! Sometimes, cost is secondary, to the most for the public good! IMHO..............some accountability would also be a nice touch, since we vote into office most of the guidance counselors for our collective well being or at least those that are supposed to have the republic's best interest at heart!

Quote from: buckethead on September 06, 2010, 08:03:51 AM
Government projects are almost always more costly that their private sector counterparts. I would not say the public is clamoring for doing things "on the cheap".

Now sprawl is what the public has voted for, right here in our home town. Sprawl is yet another example of the public voting for a more costly alternative.

Land away from an urban core is often cheaper by the acre, but new infrastructure spreading to kingdom come is not.

What people really want is the best of the best, on someone else's dime.

You are right in that the public isn't clamoring for what is the cheapest but what they think is the cheapest.  The famous example being the military buys a hammer and no one fusses because it looks cheap and the urban legend is they paid thousands for it.  Same with sprawl the public just doesn't realize it isn't cheap they think it is all private and spread out over a thousand smaller projects instead of one giant urban improvement like transit.

I think you are wrong about people wanting the government to spend our money.  Republicans have won most of the elections over the past 30 years with their dishonest narrative that they spend less money and create less debt. Example Reagan blaming "Welfare Queens" because single poor women were easy to take political advantage of. Then Reagan created our national debt problem for every new President to follow suit.

QuoteI think you are wrong about people wanting the government to spend our money.  Republicans have won most of the elections over the past 30 years with their dishonest narrative that they spend less money and create less debt.

Democrats tend to lose because they continue to fail to present a logical visual argument that this isn't true.

Gentlemen...........it might be time to consider a political alternative! I don't refer to the Tea Part either, but a viable third party that actually might represent the people who put them into office! I don't know about yall, but I get tired of chosing between an apple and an orange! Along with someone from anyParty/ Agency telling me.....this is the best option when I am quite capable of deciding for myself!

If JTA is planning on having bus service to the Avenues mall every 15 min why not have bus service to the outlet mall and downtown St. Augustine from the Avenues mall.  Greyhound only has bus service to St Augustine 3 times a day 4:45 am, 12:45 pm, 5:30pm and returns 3 times a day 10:45AM, 3:05PM, 8:45pm (Not Very Frequent!) Of course Rail Service would be a better way to travel in order to avoid traffic and gas consumption.

The Sunshine bus company connects the Avenues with these destinations already.

http://www.sunshinebus.net/

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Wasteful spending!

Quote from: arb on September 27, 2010, 08:35:32 PM
Wasteful spending!

I would also suggest upper management! No plan A or B..........nothing showing for what ifs! Not to mention one hell of a lack of something as mundane as "Shelters"............with or without advertising! I wonder if we could advertise for replacements?

Why don't we tie JTA's pay to on-time performance and customer reviews?

FYI....most metro areas are proposing BRT in some form or another in their long-range plans....one example is Tallahassee, where they are set to adopt their 2035 LRTP soon....the Cost feasible Plan has over $65 million allocated for BRT....and their needs plan identified over $200 million for BRT routes throughout the city.

Maybe so tufsu..........but the rail is the "Spine" and BRT is strictly the feeder end ....is it not? ChriswUFGator if JTA did that..........they would go down the tubes in the blink of an eye! On-time performance is in the same catagory as "Shelters" which means it is non-existant!

not really CS....both BRT and rail are considered premium transit services, meaning they are the spine....the big problem here is that we have proposed BRT and rail spines in the same corridors/areas.

Your right! This is the basic issue with what JTA is proposing.......no plan and no vision!  I disagree with the BRT, as set forth from JTA, if your definition of "Premium Transit Services" includes "Shelters" as it does! The rest of the system is still without something as basic as a shelter and advertising will not make up the difference! The balance of the Bus system will still be lacking something as mundane and there are no plans to do something about that other than still pushing for advertisements to make it up..........won't happen!

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 29, 2010, 01:15:10 PM
Your right! This is the basic issue with what JTA is proposing.......no plan and no vision!  I disagree with the BRT, as set forth from JTA, if your definition of "Premium Transit Services" includes "Shelters" as it does! The rest of the system is still without something as basic as a shelter and advertising will not make up the difference! The balance of the Bus system will still be lacking something as mundane and there are no plans to do something about that other than still pushing for advertisements to make it up..........won't happen!

CS, I think Tufsu means that BRT is considered 'premium' in transportation circles, I don't think he means the people who actually have to wait in the rain for a crappy bus that's 2 hours late consider it a 'premium' experience. He's referring to how JTA and other agencies look at it. I'm pretty certain Tufsu is on our side when it comes to the need for rail.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 29, 2010, 02:22:35 PM

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 29, 2010, 01:15:10 PM
Your right! This is the basic issue with what JTA is proposing.......no plan and no vision!  I disagree with the BRT, as set forth from JTA, if your definition of "Premium Transit Services" includes "Shelters" as it does! The rest of the system is still without something as basic as a shelter and advertising will not make up the difference! The balance of the Bus system will still be lacking something as mundane and there are no plans to do something about that other than still pushing for advertisements to make it up..........won't happen!

CS, I think Tufsu means that BRT is considered 'premium' in transportation circles, I don't think he means the people who actually have to wait in the rain for a crappy bus that's 2 hours late consider it a 'premium' experience. He's referring to how JTA and other agencies look at it. I'm pretty certain Tufsu is on our side when it comes to the need for rail.

+1

We need commuter rail and streetcar here.  If you want a little skyway expansion fine by me but let's stop trying to reinvent the wheel here.  Commuter rail and Streetcar have proven themselves over time as cost effective ways to impact local economies.

Come on Tufsu let us see you type it one time fixed rail is better than buses gimmicked up to look like trains.

Did anyone notice that in the JTA proposals for the new I-95/JTB/Philips Highway intersection improvement that there was no accommodation for BRT lanes on Philips Highway?

Doesn't anyone find it odd that in public hearings on a new intersection ($110 M) there is no mention of BRT, and then 4 months later, BRT is announced as this long planned, gotta have activity?

Does the right hand know what the left is doing? Was the whole I-95/JTB intersection hearings just a political activity to get TBJP auditors off JTA's collective back?

Does this tell you that BRT was a "throw some cash at it" stimulus activity?

Mass Transit in Jacksonville can't be a "take the money and run" activity. It takes a holistic, well thought out plan with public support to fund it effectively over its life. Otherwise, BRT will just become another Skyway, except with wheels.

BRT and commuter rail were mentioned in the JTB/Philips presentation I attended.  However, it was clear that little to no real effort had been made to integrate the two.  For example, this road project had a huge retention pond being constructed on the proposed commuter rail/BRT park & ride site.  While the site can easily accommodate a pond, it would be best to make sure it is designed to an amenity that would integrate seamlessly with the proposed rail station and potential TOD opportunities.  In addition, zero thought had been put into making sure transit riders can access anything east of I-95 without being forced into a gas based vehicle.

Here is an article about this in further detail: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jun-jtas-plans-for-i-95jtb-interchange-shortsighted

Why am I not surprised.

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 29, 2010, 03:31:26 PM
Come on Tufsu let us see you type it one time fixed rail is better than buses gimmicked up to look like trains.

ok Jeffrey...sure rail is better than buses for fixed-route operations...

....but....

there is always a question of cost....if you're going to do high-end BRT (at $20+ million a mile) than you might as well just do rail....but I do believe there is a place for enhanced bus (call it BRT-lite) that would cost less than $3 million a mile.

As to the Philips Hwy corridor...I like commuter rail as a way of providing an alternative to the car during peak periods....but a train every 60 minutes during the rest of the day isn't exactly ideal...so unless we can get good usage agreements from FEC (or buy the tracks), we'll still need better bus service on the corridor too.

My main issue from the beginning has been that JTA intends to request FTA funding for both BRT and commuter rail...I doubt FTA will be interested in funding both projects in the same corridor.

Why no focus on relating economic development to cost? Quite frankly, it's more important than being a congestion relief alternative.

I'm also of the belief that we can and should have better reliable bus service on Philips without the attempted FTA BRT money grap. 

Yeah I think that's the main issue most people have with B(R)T. The existing bus system habitually runs hopelessly behind schedule, there are no shelters, the route structure is asinine, and most riders have to take 2, 3, 4, or more different buses, not to mention waste several hours of their time, trying to go a few miles. It's pathetic.

Why not fix the systemwide problems at JTA first? Why are we building another expensive and complicated additional sub-system here, when the basic system is completely FUBAR? JTA is putting its cart before the horse, IMO...

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 30, 2010, 08:45:23 AM
Yeah I think that's the main issue most people have with B(R)T. The existing bus system habitually runs hopelessly behind schedule, there are no shelters, the route structure is asinine, and most riders have to take 2, 3, 4, or more different buses, not to mention waste several hours of their time, trying to go a few miles. It's pathetic.

Why not fix the systemwide problems at JTA first? Why are we building another expensive and complicated additional sub-system here, when the basic system is completely FUBAR? JTA is putting its cart before the horse, IMO...

Just so I can understand where you're coming from....  How often do you ride the hopelessy behind schedule bus?

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 30, 2010, 09:05:51 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 30, 2010, 08:45:23 AM
Yeah I think that's the main issue most people have with B(R)T. The existing bus system habitually runs hopelessly behind schedule, there are no shelters, the route structure is asinine, and most riders have to take 2, 3, 4, or more different buses, not to mention waste several hours of their time, trying to go a few miles. It's pathetic.

Why not fix the systemwide problems at JTA first? Why are we building another expensive and complicated additional sub-system here, when the basic system is completely FUBAR? JTA is putting its cart before the horse, IMO...

Just so I can understand where you're coming from....  How often do you ride the hopelessy behind schedule bus?

Wouldn't the correct question be "How much more often would I use the bus if it didn't take 3 hours to go 10 miles?"

Let's start with - I have a car.  My commute is from Lake Shore to the Northside.  I can drive it in 25-30 minutes each way for about $20-$25/wk in gas (Doesn't include wear & tear on the car).  I can bike it in about an hour, it's free - but it doesn't include the wear & tear on my.  JTA is 45-50 minutes.  It's $10 per week, and I don't have to fight the traffic.  I honestly enjoy the ride home, because it gives me options:  finish what I was working on on the laptop, read a book, just zone out and put in the ear-buds. 

I understand that time is money, but what I get in exchange for that time (about 3 hours a week) is peacful so I don't mind.  The same reason people do home projects, I ride the bus. ??? Confused, yeah, I know.

Building a deck at home - 3 weekends or roughly 40 hours @ $30/hr + $1,500 in material = $2,700
Contractor Quote - $1,900.

You think you're saving money, but it's more about how you feel spending your time.  ;)

It doesn't take 30 minutes to go from Lakeshore to the Northside, it takes more like 10 minutes. Just hop on 17 to 95N and you're there. If you took Edgewood all the way up or something, it would probably take 25-30 minutes with all those stoplights.

And you're lucky if it really only takes 45 minutes to make that run by bus. Ask DeadGirlsDontDance about the 2 hours it takes her to get from Springfield to Riverside. That is indicative of the usual experience.

But still, if that's how you want to spend your time, so be it. Not judging. Just saying, most people's bus trips take exponentially longer than yours, and most folks can't afford to deal with JTA.

I'm going to throw this out there, too.  I my travel times are affected due to the times I go to and from the office - I'm there by 7:45 and leaving at 5:30, so I'm on 95 during peak times.  The schedules, I would assume, are based on a typical work week, so in that case, it does work out for me.  I transfer at Rosa Park and honestly get out of one bus and into another that's already there. 

There's a good chance that DDCD's trip takes a while depending on when she goes.  It may also depend on the route she's taking.  Her best option would be Springfield to Rosa Park / People Mover to Convention Center / Trolley or bus into Riverside - there are more routes going by the CV to Riverside than leaving RP to Riverside.  She should have to wait more than 10-15 minutes at each stop, and could tighten that number by checking the schedules.  Have her look into that and get back to me.

She reads the forum the same as you or I, so I'm sure she'll see this thread eventually. I'm not normally in the business of planning out ideal bus routes for people and then getting back to anyone about it. That's not really my profession. If you question most peoples' experience with the bus, read Stephen's article about taking 10 hours to go to the equestrian center, or check out any of the comments in other threads on this topic. It is what it is.

I've heard from a reliable source that bus service is most reliable in the Northwest Quadrant which is the part of the city where the greatest percentage of residents are dependent upon it.  That may help explain why people in different parts of town have different experiences with JTA.

Quote from: urbanlibertarian on September 30, 2010, 03:14:28 PM
I've heard from a reliable source that bus service is most reliable in the Northwest Quadrant which is the part of the city where the greatest percentage of residents are dependent upon it.  That may help explain why people in different parts of town have different experiences with JTA.

Based on my bus experiences (note the plural!) I think your more than correct urbanlibertarian! Just a crying shame that region has a severe lack of simple shelters.........along with the rest of the system! I think the totals are now about 1700 .....that is those missing any kind of shelters! Longest I had to wait was about 45 min's and this was on Philips, the proposed BRT route! Gosh.......what a freakin waste of money!

I suppose since JTA is a reliable transportation mode for myself and 1 other person on this forum, cliff's daughter's husband, and possibly the entire county of duval then I will have to play devil's advocate and propose a challenge.  I am willing to take the route of YOUR choice and see if JTA would be a reasonable choice for you. 
I should probably clear up some more details before taking the challenge that I will present to you all:  1.)  I will have a bike with me, this allows me to travel 1-3 miles quickly and easily if opportunity for an easier transfer is around the corner.  2.) I will dress business casual (like every other day), kakhi pants / button down shirt / dress shoes.  3.)You let me know where I have to travel from and to, and it needs to be your typical commute (i.e. home to work, home to shopping, home to the beach - it can't be going to the store for ice-cream at 9 at night.  4.) I have 1 week to research the route and 5.) 5 attempts within a month to prove my theory (I need a few tries to figure out which bus to catch and where)
I'm betting that I will be able to create a proposal FOR riding JTA as part of your daily commute.  If I'm successful, I challenge the person whose route I am able to use to actually try it for 2 weeks.  I think you'll find a new or probably even first time respect for the service that's provided.

I also want to be clear that I don't have any affilliation with JTA other than a recent mode of transportation, and like most of you on this forum would like to seee man more improvements and additions.  I think there's a lot of possiblity, but the myopic view of those in charge are affecting the system in ways that can/could be more detrimental than they realize. 

JTA needs to reach out to those of us who don't rely on their services, but those of us who choose to use it as another alternative to driving themselves.

You can start with the daily commute I take right now.  

Start: Timberlin Park Blvd @ Southside Blvd (Shopping center with Border's Books)

End: 1660 Prudential Dr, Jacksonville, FL 32207 (Downtown Southbank)

By car, the 12 mile commute ranges from 25 - 45 minutes, depending on rush hour traffic conditions and stop light cycles.  Work hours are 8am - 5pm, although it's not uncommon to stay until 7-8pm or travel down to Daytona Beach a couple days out of the week.  

So I would really qualify as a choice rider.  By the nature of my job and company, I dress in suits or dress pants, shirt & tie on a regular basis (haven't worn khakis in years).  A couple of days out of the week, I don't leave downtown or Springfield to after 10pm (Metro Jacksonville meetings).

The commute to my last job was much shorter but I was still hesitant to ride a bike or the bus on Southside Blvd. because of heavy traffic, no sidewalks, no bus shelters, and not being comfortable riding a bike on a shoulder next to drivers who move at +50 mph, merging on/off I-95, and who routinely run over that white line for a variety of purposes (text messaging, switching CDs, putting on makeup, avoiding rear ending people, etc.).

At this point, the only transit mode I use is the skyway, which basically gets me across the river during lunch hour.  I doubt I'll be able to use the bus every day but there would be times that it may be a viable option, if the travel time were efficient and service attractive.

I'll get back to you on this one.

Lake stepped up first, so let's see if I can put my money where my mouth is.

Lake is being generoud with the 25-45 nminute commute....I go the opposite way (downtown to the Avenues) and mine ranges from 15 min (morning) to 20-25 min (afternoon).

JTA does offer a route that stops 1 block from my house and ends across Southside from my office at the mall....the trip takes about 40 minutes (then add 5-10 minutes for walking)

^I've got my commute timed down to the second.  I've never been able to get downtown in 15 minutes during rush hour northbound.  That's impossible from my location.  A good portion of my time is spent getting to I-95.  I use Western Way, which backs up a couple of blocks south of the Baymeadows signal.  However, its still better than taking Southside to Baymeadows or Southside to Philips to access I-95.  The 45 minutes come into play when I-95 is backed up from Baymeadows up to University, heading northbound.  The worst part about this is that on these days, you can see I-95 traffic slowing down, while driving on Western Way, but there's no real logical alternative route to take north.  Using Baymeadows to get to Philips or San Jose isn't ideal and going down to Philips and then back up, isn't peaches & cream either.  Oh yeah, try to avoid leaving after 7:45am.  You'll find yourself behind a couple of school buses.  All this being said, I would love to have the option of driving to a park & ride at Avenues Walk (a little over a mile south of my origin) and catching a train, that is not subject to regular traffic conditions, into downtown.  Time wise, it could be pretty competitive and I'd save a ton of money on auto maintenance, gas and come November, Northbank parking.

The bus is going to be caught in rush hour just like everyone else.

Which is why it's not a realistic option for me.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 02, 2010, 09:00:01 AM
Which is why it's not a realistic option for me.

Oh I know, I was agreeing with you not disagreeing. We are on the same page.

I was just saying that because some people on the forum like to argue how wonderful the bus is, and when they do their calculations on how long it takes you to get anywhere by car, they seem to be adding in traffic and red lights, when the bus would be delayed by these things as well. Already I've seen estimates of 30 and 45 minutes for car trips that routinely take me 10 minutes, and I don't see the point of saying "well it takes 20 extra minutes with traffic" because the bus would be sitting in that same traffic too and be delayed just as much. That was my point.

This is a main reason that easy to use, on-time, and rapid public transit really = rail, not road-based options.

Rail would beat everything........plain and simple! Even the vaunted "BRT" that JTA keeps trying to shove down our throats! If we can ever get some rail that is!

Quote from: CS Foltz on October 02, 2010, 07:16:33 PM
Rail would beat everything........plain and simple! Even the vaunted "BRT" that JTA keeps trying to shove down our throats! If we can ever get some rail that is!

maybe, maybe not CS....light rail in Tampa is expected to take 45 minutes to get from the north end to downtown and 20 minutes from there to the airport....during non-rush hour, those trip are 25 minutes and 12 minutes by car.