Metro Jacksonville

QuoteSubmitted by Jeff Elliott on August 19, 2010 - 11:23pm

And you wonder why Jacksonville continues to fight a negative perception throughout the NFL?

Jason Cole is an award-winning writer who covered the Miami Dolphins for 15 years at The Miami Herald and the South Florida Sun Sentinel. He now lives in Gainesville and works for Yahoo.com. He’s currently about halfway through his excursion around the country visiting each of the NFL sites.

Here, in part, is how he opened his report on the Jaguars.

“Jacksonville might be the worst town in the NFL. The beaches are cool, featuring plenty of funky places to hang out for a beer. But Jacksonville completely lacks identity. There is nothing that defines it. It’s really just a series of housing developments connected by a beltway with I-95 splitting it pretty much down the middle.

“Fortunately, the distinct odor from the paper mills that defined Jacksonville (and Savannah, Ga., to the north) has been cleaned up. But if you’re looking for history and culture, Jacksonville doesn’t have much, aside from a couple of spots where the French, Spanish and English battled over property.”

This is a national report that circulated on Monday.

Now I’ve met Jason before. He’s been through Jacksonville and written stories from here.

Yet there it was this week, Jacksonville, a city that “completely lacks identity.” Right. Because, of course, we don’t have any golf courses, or beach resorts, or museums, or Naval history, or famous running races, or a sports complex, or paradise weather 11 months a year.

No, all those things are probably only found in Buffalo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh or a few choice others. Come on, Jason, you’re better than that.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/401949/jeff-elliott/2010-08-19/bashing-jacksonville-gets-little-old

There seems to be a consensus among sports media pundints that the Jags should be moved elsewhere.

Much like any partisan news outlet (all of them?), we can expect to see the notion that Jax is a substandard city hammered home until the general population agrees.

The Jaguars issue will be self correcting upon succesive 10 win seasons..............8 & 6 and in the playoffs when teams with 9 & 7 don't make it. That was a fluke that required other teams to win or to lose! When the Jaguars become a winning team on a regular basis...........all questions will be answered, but not until!

This guy lives in Gainesville and has the nerve to speak ill of Jacksonville? give me a break. Obviously he has never seen the great historic neighborhoods our City boast! This kind of crap just aggrevates me to no end.

Here is the thing I have realized about most people: they just don't "get" Jacksonville and frankly I think when people come through here, they are jealous of what we have.  If anyone has seen our older neighborhoods, clearly the downtown (Riverwalk etc), the river, and the beaches, they know that our city has more for amenities and potential than almost any other city in the Lower 48, Miami included.  Our nicer neighborhoods are also exclusive in the fact that you almost have to be raised a certain way to live in, fit in with, and appreciate an Avondale, Ortega, San Marco, PVB, Atlantic Beach, etc and most people don't fit that bill and they are jealous.

You look at Charlotte and Austin, two booming cities that are also the media's current darlings.  One of them is utra-trendy, outdoorsy, ultra-lib if you will, and there are many cool things about Austin, but in reality it's in an ugly part of Texas (let's be honest) and its weather is not the greatest thing since sliced bread.  The media and people build it up because it's easy to move there for your job and get into live music, start riding a bike or kayaking, and become a liberal.  It's very easy and people from all over do it, especially young people.  (Not that those things are bad, but that's really all Austin has besides the university)

Charlotte has NO history left over, barely any old neighborhoods, no old buildings downtown, no grit, etc.  It's a media darling because it's tied to Wall Street without being Wall Street, and it's all so fresh and new and clean.  There aren't old families there and there is no history there, and most people aren't part of old families with history, so they can easily fit in there and relate to the "new" scene.  It's definitely a keeping up with the Joneses and the media has no problem with that scene.  They do have a problem with "established" scenes where people are more subtle and ways of thinking are a little bit older.

Jax on the other hand, whether one has money or not, is old family and old history central.  We may have a lot of people moving here, and excluding those who move to the Southside or certain suburban areas, it takes a certain type of person to move to "our" beaches and any of the neighborhoods lining the river.  Our Cuban population is literally families dating from the 60s and prior and our Jewish population consists of families from the early 1900s who have stayed in Jacksonville.  Everyone here has some sort of history, and people who don't have any family history anywhere can't really relate and people with "new" money certainly aren't comfortable plopping it down in our established neighborhoods where they often stick out like sore thumbs.  Everything Jacksonville is (Conservative, old, established) the media hates and people are jealous of.  I am not saying we need to be stuck in old ways (and biking and being outdoors is actually a great thing, better parks will help with that LoL), but Jacksonville is actually a pretty refined city and people either don't see it and it looks boring to them or they see it and are turned off because they themselves are not as refined as the average person in this city.

Rant over, but I really think that's what it is.  It is so easy for anyone to pack up and move further south to the more "popular" trendy cities in tropical climates and where everyone is so transient and everyone is meeting everyone for the first time and it's one big party or retirement scene, but to move to Jacksonville, you most likely need a few connections and you need to come from a similar background or environment to fit in.  Our city is hardly transient (except with the military and those people always end up moving back here) and while there are 1.35 million people, everyone knows everyone.  It's more like a really large small town.

What is the identity of Jacksonville? I often have people visit, and rack my brain on where to take them to "show off Jacksonville", eventually I give up and realize it really is the gateway to Florida and that is about it- a stop on the way to everywhere else in Florida. Can anyone name one place/thing to go/do that someone would actually fly to Jacksonville for (other than work)?

PS: We really don't need or want people moving to our city who have no appreciation for our history and non-flashy ways of conducting business or living, and we don't need to spend time, effort, and energy convincing people who don't fit in to our city that our city is so great they shouldn't bash it, but should mover here.  I get soo frustrated too when people make fun of Jacksonville, but I am starting to realize our whole city is actually kind of exclusive and many people know they don't belong here, but they wish they did because of the location, the water, the scenery, and the weather.

Many people like to be the "big man" on their street or their block, and Jacksonville is not like that at all.  People here are usually the complete opposite and don't care who is the richest or coolest person on the block, so people with that attitude won't find what they are looking for here.

For the record Atlanta is a pretty similar city people-wise to Jacksonville and it catches about as much grief from the media as we do.  Anything wrong with Atlanta the media will continuously harp on without mentioning any of the positives, and it's probably because they wish they could fit in with Atlanta's ITP society where everyone also knows each other and history is abundant.

This is what happens when you let 90% of the city turn into sprawl that no one cares about. That is all a visitor will see if they don't take it upon themselves to find the urban core neighborhoods (which they have most likely been warned against doing).

^Pretty much.  You can't expect visitors to see the unique things and history this city has to offer when the city itself does not really care or promote them.

QuoteWhat is the identity of Jacksonville? I often have people visit, and rack my brain on where to take them to "show off Jacksonville", eventually I give up and realize it really is the gateway to Florida and that is about it- a stop on the way to everywhere else in Florida. Can anyone name one place/thing to go/do that someone would actually fly to Jacksonville for (other than work)?

I've got a pretty standard itinerary I use for out of town friends and/or clients

I'll post it up this weekend.  It's usually pretty interesting.

QuoteBecause, of course, we don’t have any golf courses, or beach resorts, or museums, or Naval history, or famous running races, or a sports complex

Golf courses, "famous" running races, and sports complexes are not what give a city its identity.  

Quoteparadise weather 11 months a year

Try about 3 months.

I agree the bashing of our fair city gets old, but I think Cole's view isn't too far off the mark, once you get past the "worst town in the NFL" remark.

^^or a visit to the Town Center....haha

Damn right Stephen - we'll treat him to a round of golf at the 1st Tee on Golfair, followed by fine dining and drinks at Dave & Buster's and then to cap the night off, we venture back riverside for a nightcap at InCahoots.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 20, 2010, 09:08:43 AM
^Pretty much.  You can't expect visitors to see the unique things and history this city has to offer when the city itself does not really care or promote them.

I completely agree with this.

And I disagree with the poster above who says Jacksonville doesn't need people moving here, or to be perceived as a trendy city. Thinking like that is only going to keep this city stuck in the bizarro 70's time warp it currently finds itself in, which all of our sister cities continue to emerge into mini-global cities. Jacksonville desperately needs an influx of young professionals and corporations. You're never going to get that if you consider the city to be some kind of a walled garden.

It sucks, but the original artlcle is absolutely correct in that Jacksonville has zero national identity aside from the Jaguars. No landmarks or streets that someone out of state would instantly recognize. No distinct local cuisine (no, Lubis does not count). No hot underground music scene. People know the Jaguars, and that's it.

We might have great neighborhoods, cool beaches, and a fascinating history, but if it isn't properly marketed, none of that matters.

That's the bad news.

The good news is, Jacksonville is legit one of the most beautiful cities in the Southeast. This city just has so much potential to be great if only the proper leadership would emerge to take Jacksonville into the 21st century. We've got it all. A beautiful downtown. Great beaches. A good location. Awesome weather. Good existing infrastructure. It shouldn't be as hard as it is. It's just a matter of putting the package together and someone creating a buzz that Jacksonville is the place to be.

I can see where some people would say the same stuff as this guy, but what does that have to do with the Jaguars??? This guy lives in the jorts capital of the world and he has time to make fun of Jacksonville. Good luck Jeff you're an idiot, I guess that's why you live in Gainesville. Sorry to all you gator fans.

LOL.  That picture almost looks like its been photoshopped and someone put his head on another body.

The guy looks like an idiot, and he probably is wearing jorts!

I still stand by that while we need to continuously get with the picture and make our city better (and advertise it, little St. Augie spends at least 4x as much on advertising than Jax), it takes a certain person to feel comfortable moving to this city where everyone already has history and everyone knows each other.  Most other sunbelt cities are every bit as sprawling and have almost all of the same problems, but people are so new, so transient, and everyone is in the same boat so everyone feels more comfortable.  Unless you are coming from a similar environment up north or are trying to raise a family (and those trying to raise a family people will always move to Clay or St. Johns until we fix our school problem), you are going to pass Jax up for a newer, more modern city, where most people have no clear background and nobody knows each other on more than a superficial basis.  This sort of exclusivity makes people jealous and our conservative attitudes (well maybe socially the latter isn't exactly a good thing) don't win favors with the media, which including the sports media, is pretty liberal.

I think Jacksonville has soul.

I think the analysis offered upthread is giving this writer too much credit.

A lot of members of the sports media are lemmings who follow a trend.  It's trendy to bash Jacksonville because it's a smaller market, in the South, and relatively low-profile, all of which are anathema to the trend-makers in the sports press.  The negativity toward Jacksonville began during the expansion race, and after dying down for a while due to the Jaguars' initial success and the city's intense response, it re-emerged when the city hosted the Super Bowl and sportswriters in search for an easy story (as always) decided to pick on the smaller, Southern city without as many obvious tourist sites.  (Full disclosure, I am an outsider who regularly visits Jacksonville and thinks it has a lot to offer in the way of tourism, but in ways that are subtle compared to other Florida destinations and not at all well marketed.)  Not-easily-understood but easily mocked factors such as the tarps and the Tebow cult have contributed more recently, along with last year's ticket sales swoon that has led to this year's exceptionally impressive sales surge being more or less ignored.

Most Jacksonville criticism from the sports press comes from those who have never been there or have the slightest and most peripheral experiences with the city, and are just looking for an easy story to write.  It's not legitimate criticism founded in experience or fact, even if portions of it occasionally are accurate by accident.  I maintain that even if you took all these guys to Kingsley Plantation and the LaVilla Museum and Avondale and San Marco for a day and showed them the city's wonderful hospitality, they'd still write the same article because it's easy and the prevailing, expected trend to follow.  Those from competing cities in the region cannibalistically and enthusiastically follow along even if they know the city well.

Tony Kornheiser started this garbage when he wrote his Super Bowl column that he later admitted was written without having ever visited the city, and then he started piling on with the "unknown city, unknown players, unknown team" mantra whenever there was an MNF broadcast in Jacksonville.  And the lemmings followed.

It is EXACTLY the same criticism in all circumstances and has been since '93.  You can wine and dine them at Morton's and they'll still write that the best restaurants in town are Applebee's and Waffle House.

^^^^^Agreed, but I think there is a slightly more complex reason as to why Jacksonville of all places is the place to pick on.  It's not just sports writers (and all media are lemmings, I love hearing newsbites from all the different media pertaining to one event and they all use the same exact phrases as if there is one person behind the scenes telling everyone what to say).  The fact that Jax is in the south doesn't help, the name of the city doesn't help, the fact that our city is a "red" city in elections doesn't help, but I think it goes even deeper than all of that.  The amount of pure vitriol directed at Jacksonville is the same amount of hate you would see coming from a school-aged child who was jealous of another.  It's the same thing on a much larger scale.

Quote from: uptowngirl on August 20, 2010, 09:00:14 AM
What is the identity of Jacksonville? I often have people visit, and rack my brain on where to take them to "show off Jacksonville", eventually I give up and realize it really is the gateway to Florida and that is about it- a stop on the way to everywhere else in Florida. Can anyone name one place/thing to go/do that someone would actually fly to Jacksonville for (other than work)?

An easy Saturday starts with brunch at biscotti's, a stroll from Stinson park across the Ortega bridge then around El Dorado Ct and over to Stockton Park,  spend an hour or so downtown, grab a beer at bold city, look at the quirky five points shops, go to Mossfire or O'brothers,  walk around memorial park, then finish the night at either the Loft/Kickback's, or Dos Gatos/Lit.  Then wake up the next morning and hit up Metro Diner or Orsay for breakfast/hangover cure.

Quote from: Lunican on August 20, 2010, 09:05:39 AM
This is what happens when you let 90% of the city turn into sprawl that no one cares about. That is all a visitor will see if they don't take it upon themselves to find the urban core neighborhoods (which they have most likely been warned against doing).

When I mention to people that I mostly go to places in Riverside/Springfield, you'd think I had just told them I was nursing a slight crack addiction.  Almost the first thing they say is "Is it safe over there?" or "Have you ever gotten jumped?"  The only place I've ever gotten jumped was in Gainesville, hahaha. 

I was in town last week for a fw days and roamed about Riverside, Avondale, DT and Springfield
during the evening.

Great time/was not harmed.

Quote from: simms3 on August 20, 2010, 09:55:28 AM
they all use the same exact phrases as if there is one person behind the scenes telling everyone what to say

Like this?

QuoteIn purporting to "take a look back" at how the economic recovery plan "grew, and grew, and grew," Fox News' Jon Scott referenced seven dates, as on-screen graphics cited various news sources from those time periods -- all of which came directly from a Senate Republican Communications Center press release. A Fox News on-screen graphic even reproduced a typo contained in the Republican press release.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200902100019

Quote from: stephendare on August 20, 2010, 10:00:29 AM
meh.

I doubt being southern or red has anything to do with it.

I'd say southern is a factor but not the only one.  A lot of major-outlet sportswriters do and have picked on the South in general, and I think Jacksonville is their most acceptable alternative because Charlotte (which was also picked on in '93, and in the late 80s when it was making its NBA expansion bid), Nashville (which was getting Jacksonville-level vitriol when the Oilers moved there and the NHL Devils considered it), and Atlanta (which was picked on heavily at the time of the Olympics bid) all have become recognized as trendy and happening to some degree or other.  Miami isn't really southern and is popular with sportswriters because they universally recognize that South Beach is cool.  New Orleans is popular with sportswriters because they universally recognize that Bourbon St. is cool.  (As the T-U put it in one of its better lines ever, New Orleans is the home of Bourbon Street; Jacksonville is the home of Water Street.)  So when they want to write a cheap column using all their favorite Southern stereotypes, Jacksonville is the invariable target.

But the reasons for their picking on the city go far beyond regional considerations.  Jacksonville caught their attention in the 80s with its seemingly undignified push to get several existing NFL teams to move there.  Then in 1993 they were all embarrassed with their wholesale dismissal of the Jacksonville expansion bid, so after attendance and on-field success shut them up for a while, they are again looking to crow that they were right all along and pro sports in Jacksonville didn't work.  I think that may be the biggest root of the bizarre level of vitriol we see.  Sportswriters don't like to be proven wrong.  The Super Bowl is root #2.  Sportswriters like to spend their travel allowance at Mons Venus in Tampa, on Bourbon St. in New Orleans, and at South Beach in Miami.  They're not going to be charmed by Avondale and San Marco, or if they are, they're still going to write the easy column about being disappointed that they're not in one of the other obvious flashy destination cities for the Super Bowl (exception: the year Detroit hosted it, when the lemmings all decided to write "Let's not bash Detroit; it's suffered enough" columns).  Then that Super Bowl year happened to coincide with the arrival of the tarps, and it's a lot easier to make 50 lame tarp jokes than figure out the real reason the tarps are there and report on them intelligently.

I definitely agree that most mainstream sportswriters are not "red" because a lot of them rather gratuitously wear their politics on their sleeve in their writing, but I don't think they're thinking too heavily about Jacksonville's politics when they bash it.

(More full disclosure: I was an unsuccessful part-time sports columnist for several years and wrote on this very topic at the time of the '05 Jacksonville and '06 Detroit Super Bowls.)

Quote from: finehoe on August 20, 2010, 10:46:19 AM

Quote from: simms3 on August 20, 2010, 09:55:28 AM
they all use the same exact phrases as if there is one person behind the scenes telling everyone what to say

Like this?

I don't think Simms was making a political reference there; he is quite correct that sportswriters from all over the country tend to repeat exactly the same phrases when referring to an event.  I can't count the number of Waffle House references I saw in columns about Jacksonville.  Virtually every sports commentator refers to Brett Favre as "having fun out there, just like a kid."  Etc. etc. etc.

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on August 20, 2010, 10:48:06 AM
I don't think Simms was making a political reference there

Well, maybe not there but his/her repeated references to "liberals" and "red cities" tell us the lens through which he/she is viewing this.

Quote from: finehoe on August 20, 2010, 10:51:21 AM

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on August 20, 2010, 10:48:06 AM
I don't think Simms was making a political reference there

Well, maybe not there but his/her repeated references to "liberals" and "red cities" tell us the lens through which he/she is viewing this.

In fairness to Simms, Jacksonville generally has been a red city and many of the nation's most widely disseminated sportswriters do express opinions in their columns that strongly indicate left-of-center political leanings*.  I do not intend that as a political comment or to say red or blue is either positive or negative.  I don't know that Simms did either.  I think he was trying to identify part of the reason Jacksonville gets bashed reflexively.  If Jacksonville were a politically blue city and National Review went out of its way to bash it all the time, it'd be equally fair to note that trend.  

In short, politics may be a factor in the negativity toward Jacksonville.  I don't think it is one as posted upthread, but it's not unfair to note the possibility.

* Example: Peter King, a prominent NFL writer, inserts messages of support for Democratic candidates into the middle of his "Monday Morning Quarterback" feature out of nowhere.  He also started on the "London Jaguars/L.A. Jaguars" bandwagon even before the 2008 season began.  I think these two facts are completely coincidental and not related, but I also completely understand why someone might see a political element to certain sportswriters' contempt for Jacksonville.

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on August 20, 2010, 10:55:11 AM
In short, politics may be a factor in the negativity toward Jacksonville. 

I tend  to doubt that.  Where is all the bashing of Houston, Dallas, & Denver?  They are all 'red' cities.

Quote from: finehoe on August 20, 2010, 10:59:09 AM

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on August 20, 2010, 10:55:11 AM
In short, politics may be a factor in the negativity toward Jacksonville. 

I tend  to doubt that.  Where is all the bashing of Houston, Dallas, & Denver?  They are all 'red' cities.

I doubt it too, as I stated in the longer posts upthread, but I can understand why someone would draw that conclusion.  I am not sure if you read the mainstream sports press regularly (and I apologize if I am making an incorrect and unfair assumption), but there is a strong tendency for the Rick Reillys, Peter Kings, Mike Lupicas, etc. of the world who have a national platform to insert political opinions into their columns, often rather gratuitously.  Most of the time they are opinions that one would broadly define as liberal.  (There's also one or two who drop conservative opinions into their columns equally gratuitously.  Rick Telander from Chicago, formerly of Sports Illustrated, comes to mind.  Perhaps coincidentally, perhaps not, he was the only mainstream sports columnist I noticed who bashed Detroit at the time of that Super Bowl.)

Incidentally, Denver is most definitely not a red city. 

Quote from: finehoe on August 20, 2010, 10:59:09 AM

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on August 20, 2010, 10:55:11 AM
In short, politics may be a factor in the negativity toward Jacksonville. 

I tend  to doubt that.  Where is all the bashing of Houston, Dallas, & Denver?  They are all 'red' cities.

as noted Denver is not a 'red' city....and Houston just elected the first openly gay big-city mayor in the U.S.

^^^I hear people bash Dallas and Houston all the time.  Denver I can't speak for, but Denver is also pretty socially liberal and Boulder is right there.  I personally wish Jax was a little more like Denver politically (a little less morally strict in the Southern Baptist sense, but still economically and fiscally conservative, but also not quite as loonie socially as San Fran).

Virtually all media (sports included) except for the FTU, Fox News, and talk radio are left leaning, if not very left leaning.  To me it's a good thing in one respect that Jacksonville is continuously bashed, because if politically we turned into San Francisco, whoa (at least we wouldn't be bashed by the media as much, but regular folks might be turned off).  Also, a place like Birmingham is even more southern and red than Jacksonville, but the media never mentions it because it has fallen completely off the map.  At least Jax is partially in the national spotlight.  We'll never be a media darling and that's ok by me, as long as we improve the city for young educated professionals to move here and keep the city classy so they stay here when they have made money and decide to start a family.

Bashing  Jacksonville gets really old. But there are a few reasons that this happens. The number one reason is that most people judge a city by its downtown. If your downtown is not booming, then they pretty much consider you "the country". Jacksonville has sprawled so much no one will ever get the true side of Jacksonville.

Another reason people think jacksonville is "country" is because our interstate is lined with trees. When you get further down south, you dont see tree off the interstate. For some reason we build BEHIND the trees, therefore people never really see the city. But as the saying goes you cant judge a book by its cover.

Good point about the trees, but I think the people on the sides of the interstate and throughout the city actually like having trees, unlike most of S FL (I have heard more compliments about the number of trees than criticisms, though it can give the appearance of being underdeveloped).  Also, everyone's downtown gets bashed except for the really big cities.  Charlotte is miles ahead of us, but I hear people all the time complain that there isn't really much to do in Uptown Charlotte.  I think whether a downtown has construction cranes dotting the landscape and urban/lively bar districts is irrelevant to why sports writers/casters and other media bash the city as a whole.  Atlanta's downtown/midtown is like South Beach compared to downtown Jax and it still gets bashed constantly.  People like to compare downtowns to the very best, and it's almost impossible for any city to hold a candle to DC, NYC, Boston, Chicago, or Seattle.

Gentlemen.........the tree's are a noise barrier plus they help cool off those hot winds! I wish we had more but that would probably break the bank even more than we already are!

I can't disagree with any of the points in this thread, but I really don't think any sportswriter is putting that much thought or effort into it.  Their commentaries about Jacksonville invariably reflect virtually no effort and even less originality (if that's possible).  The only effort they might reflect is an effort to try to redeem themselves for getting egg on their faces from the 1993 expansion race.

And I think Jacksonville does have any identity. Unlike the other major cities in Florida, we dont depend on Tourism to survive.  Heck, if disney world and islands of adventure shut down today, Orlando would die. If the oil had reached south florida beaches, they would have been ruined. I pride Jacksonville in being a business-oriented city, and I believe that is why weve weathered the recession pretty well. Thats why we need should strive to keep young professionals here. We attract them, but we need to keep them. I truly feel that Jacksonville just needs some young blood.

Jacksonville has real potential, there are some really good people here and there is a community attempting to improve things.  I spent this past Saturday at RAM for the break dance contest and was surprised by how great RAM really is.  There are surprises under every stone however there is nothing tying them all together. 

Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 20, 2010, 10:24:50 AM

Quote from: uptowngirl on August 20, 2010, 09:00:14 AM
What is the identity of Jacksonville? I often have people visit, and rack my brain on where to take them to "show off Jacksonville", eventually I give up and realize it really is the gateway to Florida and that is about it- a stop on the way to everywhere else in Florida. Can anyone name one place/thing to go/do that someone would actually fly to Jacksonville for (other than work)?

An easy Saturday starts with brunch at biscotti's, a stroll from Stinson park across the Ortega bridge then around El Dorado Ct and over to Stockton Park,  spend an hour or so downtown, grab a beer at bold city, look at the quirky five points shops, go to Mossfire or O'brothers,  walk around memorial park, then finish the night at either the Loft/Kickback's, or Dos Gatos/Lit.  Then wake up the next morning and hit up Metro Diner or Orsay for breakfast/hangover cure.

Quote from: Lunican on August 20, 2010, 09:05:39 AM
This is what happens when you let 90% of the city turn into sprawl that no one cares about. That is all a visitor will see if they don't take it upon themselves to find the urban core neighborhoods (which they have most likely been warned against doing).

When I mention to people that I mostly go to places in Riverside/Springfield, you'd think I had just told them I was nursing a slight crack addiction.  Almost the first thing they say is "Is it safe over there?" or "Have you ever gotten jumped?"  The only place I've ever gotten jumped was in Gainesville, hahaha.  

Agree! It could be said that this could be had in just about any city, inlcuding my lest favorite Columbia. We do have some great attractions, expecially in places like Riverside and Springfield-but none of them are really "special" meaning you can find this in about any city. Which makes for great neighborhoods, but still not sure about the "Identity" for the city overall.  Where is China Town, or the WestEnd for Jacksonville?

^^^Places that have Chinatowns, Little Havanas, West End, Little Italy, etc are all places that received heavy immigration in times when nobody knew English and people didn't mix and mingle.  All of those ethnic neighborhoods are so diluted now from what they were and in 20 or so years there may not be any more "ethnic" neighborhoods.

Also, do we need an identity that you are seeking?  We are known as a great place to raise a family and as a major port for both the navy and shipping lines.  Just about everyone in the country knows these two things about Jacksonville (or at least those looking to move, which is a lot of people).  We are also known for our high level of quality healthcare.  It seems to me that there is better/more quality healthcare in tiny Jax than 6 million person Atlanta (which has Emory, Northside/St. Joe, and Piedmont, that's about it).

What identity does Tampa have?  Atlanta?  Raleigh?  San Antonio?  There are so many cities that don't have this "Identity" that are still doing fine.  The day we get the same reputation/identity as Orlando, Miami, New Orleans, Phoenix, Las Vegas, or even Charlotte, we have lost what we do actually have, and that is a quiet, nice place to do business.  We just need to bulk our finance/insurance sector back up and keep on keeping on with our ports and hospitals and we will have 4 things that other cities in FL or most of the country don't have!

I would argue that all four cities you mentioned have reasonably strong identities. Tampa has Ybor City, The Buccaneers, its cigar history, and is almost has a twin cities vibe with neighboring St. Pete. ATL has the Braves (once America's baseball team), Ted Turner, CNN, Olympic Park, the best aquarium in the country, and a very distinct, legendary grit. Raleigh is in the center of some of the best universities in the country, is a hotbed for college basketball, and is known to be very progressive. San Antonio has the Alamo, the riverwalk, the Spurs, etc.

We're not even in the same league as these cities when it comes to national recognition and image.

I'm no proponent of turning Jacksonville into Disneyland, but it would be great if the city had something that really made it stand out. Some kind of iconic landmark or destination. Like St. Louis with the Arch, for example. Or San Antonio with the river walk. Or Cleveland with the Rock N' Roll Hall of Fame. I'm not even sure what it could be, but even with all the great neighborhoods and lost history, we still need that one crown jewel to put on the front of our city brochures.

this guy looks like Tim Tebow's retarded brother

I had never even heard of jacksonville FL (other than some obscure cousin being arrested here for making crack) until my job sent me here on a business trip about 12 years ago. When I came back six years ago, 95 was still under construction, and downtown was still dead. The one thing I rembered (other than 95 being a nightmare) was Riverside. I really do not understand the "quiet nice place to do business" what does that mean? It is so nice and quiet we do not have one big corporation headquarted here that could help push the city, such as so many other cities do. Our Stadium is named after some bank that even the residents of the city don't understand (see them tryign to open bank accounts!) It is sad, because Jacksonville has ALL the components to be grand, but is held back by its sprawl and small townishness and attitude. More roads, bus routes, and parking garages is not the answer and believe it or not, NYC is a freat place to bring up kids and enjoy an adult life once in awhile also.

There is a difference between being known as a bar/tourist/nightclub town and one that has great nightlife for its own citizens.  We don't need to be the party animal city that certain other cities are known for (i.e. Miami, Orlando, NOLA, and Las Vegas).  Aside from Miami holding Latin American HQs for virtually every company given its populace and stature as a gateway to the U.S. for almost every Hispanic country, none of these cities are business powerhouses.

Also, I live in Atlanta, and every few days there is some AJC article about how Atlanta doesn't really have an identity.  It has things which attract tourists, sure, and it has several major Fortune 500 companies and several excellent universities, but there is no "culture" unique to Atlanta or food unique to Atlanta, etc.

Regarding Tampa, in no way do the Bucs give Tampa way more identity than the Jags give Jax.  Have you seen the list compiled by Portfolio on teams' worths?  The Bucs were only two spots ahead of the Jags near the bottom of the list.

http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2010/08/09/daily38.html

Sure there is Busch Gardens, St. Pete, Ybor City, and Gasparilla.  We have St. Augustine, PVB/TPC, and other solitary things that add up that are unique to Jax.  Raleigh has no history and is more sprawled than Jacksonville will probably ever be.  I'll concede on San Antonio, it does have identity, but is not really in the national spotlight nearly as much as it used to be.

And Uptowngirl: I think Everbank Field is fitting, any other suggestions?  It's one of the fastest growing banks in the country and has a large mortgage servicing unit, as well.  It is the largest bank in the state outside of the National Association for Northern Trust (which is actually based in Chicago).  Also many people are stuck in NYC, which is undoubtedly a great place to be when you are young and single, but so many millions with families who can leave the City for the suburbs do or they come down to a place like Jacksonville or Atlanta (a big city that is also considered family friendly).

I'd agree that Jacksonville lacks a national identity.  Its national claim to fame is the Jaguars.  Of course, some know about the St. John's, some know about the beaches, some know it as the entryway to Florida, some know about the former predominance of the insurance industry, some know the old paper mill smell problem (which Kornheiser perpetuated as though it still existed in his Super Bowl writings).  Quite a few people do not know where in Florida Jacksonville is located, or that it has beaches.

To say Jacksonville lacks the components for an identity, or lacks an identity to those who know it well, is not accurate.  I think everyone I've ever taken to Jacksonville or shared my love of the city with knows it as an exceptionally friendly place, as maintaining southern character (in the best sense) in a transient state, and for its distinctive architecture and neighborhoods.  They also know it as a city defined by the river.

All of that said, once again, I guarantee you the author was not making an enlightened and considered commentary on Jacksonville's identity or lack thereof with this piece.  He was taking an easy shot at a place that a slew of sportswriters are taking shots at without really knowing anything about it.  Because doing that is trendy and expected in the sports commentary community.

^^^2nd.  Who is going to bash a city like Miami, Orlando, Las Vegas, or NOLA where people's memories of the place include theme parks, trendy fashionable beaches, and/or getting drunk at the Hustler bar and then getting laid.  It's sooo easy to target a city that has none of these things, and where people go to raise families (an entity arguably constantly under attack in this country nowadays).  The other things come into play, too.

Well, I'll say this much, we've given the author of the article about 40 more hits than he would of gotten. I mean, besides his mom and his friends on facebook, who's giving this guy the time of day...he writes for yahoo sports for pete's sake, not exactly Sports Illustrated.

Quote from: RockStar on August 20, 2010, 02:42:41 PM
Well, I'll say this much, we've given the author of the article about 40 more hits than he would of gotten. I mean, besides his mom and his friends on facebook, who's giving this guy the time of day...he writes for yahoo sports for pete's sake, not exactly Sports Illustrated.

I'm not sure anyone actually opened his article; I know I didn't.  Although I did enjoy the portrait of the author that Stephen located.

Quote from: simms3 on August 20, 2010, 02:37:59 PM
families (an entity arguably constantly under attack in this country nowadays). 

Are sportswriters attacking families now?  I missed that one.

LOL, we have an identity:  That city 30 miles north of St. Augustine!

As already mentioned, Jax lacks a national identity because we don't actually market one.  Going one step further, we don't market one for the same reason we can't successfully develop an area like downtown:  No consistent vision, plan, or execution.  This city has had more slogans in my lifetime than I can remember:

Florida Crown
Gateway to Florida
Bold New City of the South
Florida's First Coast
Where Florida Begins...
America's Logistics Center (wins prize for most anti-identity effectiveness)

All just end up being vacuous slogans.  Where is the beef?

If we are calling ourselves Florida's First Coast for example, where is the marketing program to draw in visitors and tourists to see the related historical sites and understand the history here that backs that up?  Do we have a First Coast historic sites/history brochure ( or web site) handed out to visitors at the airport or welcome centers on the interstates?  How many of our very own residents even know the story underlying this moniker?  Until we correct this, the First Coast is reduced, at best, to one point: St. Augustine, America's oldest city.  End of story.

Having an identity also stems from CULTURAL development, not economic development.  But, all Jax promotes is economic development.  Where is the EQUAL promotion of our museums, orchestra, performing arts groups, theaters, history, cuisine, night life, ethnic diversity, educational magnets, etc.?  Our CULTURE IS OUR IDENTITY.  It stays with us long after industries die, are transformed, or relocate.  It is that permanent thread in our community that makes us unique.

Unfortunately, we have gone in the opposite direction.  By literally demolishing much of our cultural heritage, we have been gradually extinguishing much of the DNA of our identity.

Bottom line, we may have an identity, but no one seems to be able to succinctly capture and promote it.

As to being teased, every City is the butt of jokes.  Most jokes start with the residents who live there and know the city best.  I know many here who proudly, if not tongue-in-cheek,  promote Jax as a back woods, redneck, old South city.  Rather than get in a tizzy over these barbs, we should act like adults, ignore them, and focus on the message (whenever we get around to developing one) that we truly want to get out.  The sign of a truly great City is one that can take its medicine.  If we don't like it, let's do something to substantively address the root issues.  In the mean time, maybe any publicity is good publicity.  At least people have us on their minds.   :D

Quote from: simms3 on August 20, 2010, 02:08:25 PM
There is a difference between being known as a bar/tourist/nightclub town and one that has great nightlife for its own citizens. 

There is also a difference between being known as a party town and being known for having a particular identity.  There are countless cities across North America that aren't known for their nightlife, yet if you say their name, people conjur up an image in their mind about that city.  What comes to mind when your average person on the street hears "Jacksonville"?  Not much I'm afraid and that's the whole point.  Protesting that we have some beautiful neighborhoods or that we have so much potential does not change that dynamic.  Jacksonville needs to establish an unique identity and promote the hell out of it, so when someone hears the city's name, they immediately think of <fill in the blank>.

The remarkable thing about this thread is that we're having a substantive, meaningful discussion about a legitimate topic--the city's identity and marketing of itself--as a result of a substanceless fluff column that probably took five minutes to write.  I love this site.

Quote from: finehoe on August 20, 2010, 03:05:50 PM


Are sportswriters attacking families now?  I missed that one.

No, but they do have a tendency to wax rhapsodic about party towns while turning up their noses as more family-oriented ones, at least when it comes to where they would most like to spend their travel expense accounts.  I guess you could say it is part of the reason Jacksonville gets picked on.  Sportswriters who got Jacksonville as a Super Bowl destination when they were hoping for San Diego or Miami started complaining during Super Bowl week and some of them never turned it off.  If a similarly comparatively sedate NFL city like Indianapolis had hosted that particular Super Bowl, maybe it would get teased comparatively more often instead. 

The bias is pretty obvious when you compare the 2005 Jacksonville and 2007 Miami Super Bowls...sportswriters complained about the weather all through the week of the Jacksonville game (when it was in the 50s and on-and-off rainy, though this did not afflict gameday itself), but didn't make a peep over the fact that the Miami game was played in a downpour.

Well, people go to sports events to have a good time, and if you're traveling to some place to have a good time, you prefer a party town.  I don't see anything weird or bizarre about that.

Quote from: finehoe on August 20, 2010, 03:38:13 PM
Well, people go to sports events to have a good time, and if you're traveling to some place to have a good time, you prefer a party town.  I don't see anything weird or bizarre about that.

Didn't mean to say it was weird or bizarre, especially not when you put it that way.  It is likely a major contributing factor to the gratuitous cheap shots that have been taken at Jacksonville since.

Incidentally, maybe it's just me, but I would think an all-expenses-paid trip to cover the Super Bowl would be pretty exciting for someone who chose to cover sports for a living.  But a lot of sportswriters have a make-myself-the-story ethos that leads them to whine about their circumstances to a degree that is, well, weird and bizarre. 

And in my opinion, the fact that not getting to party to their heart's content in Jacksonville in 2005 tarnishes their subsequent reporting is just bad journalism.  Holding a grudge toward a city is petty to begin with, and practically doing a preliminary end-zone dance on the prospect of that city's losing its sports team--without any regard for how that might devastate that city's image and citizenry--is most politely described as callous and unprofessional.

It's real simple:  Controversy sells.

Witness this thread.  Have we ever discussed this guy's comments otherwise?  He just made a name for himself.  And eyeballs pay the bills.  How to get those eyeballs....?  Well, that's not too important nowadays.  Just get them.

Meanwhile, his point is still appropriate.  We, as a city, have mismanaged our image making.

Quote from: stjr on August 20, 2010, 06:05:45 PM


Meanwhile, his point is still appropriate.  We, as a city, have mismanaged our image making.

You're absolutely right that the city has mismanaged its image making. 

But there is no way the writer had that intelligent of a point.  He was just trying to do the cool thing and bash Jacksonville.

And I promise you, even if this city marketed itself as well as it ought, there would still be a gaggle of sportswriters who would trash it because of some combination of the 1993 embarrassment to the sportswriting community, tarps, and the unfamiliarity of an easy target.

I doubt the author made much of a name for himself.  I doubt anyone here is scrambling to read his next piece to see what happens.  Probably everyone just read the excerpt Lake quoted rather than racing over to Yahoo Sports.  Mike Florio, on the other hand, is a master of playing the flute of inaccurate Jacksonville-bashing and getting a parade of people to dance in response.

How about just ignoring them and focus on making the city better?  The better REAL things you add to Jacksonville (for starters, update the Riverwalk!, expand Riverside!) the more power marketing you have.  The fundamentals have a tendency to speak for themselves for the people that matter.  It's hard to write a news story about how terrible the city is when it's flourishing and growing!

I don't see anything about this article's opening that is a lie or untrue.  History and culture, yes Jacksonville doesn't have much compared to other cities.  It's hard to compete against history when you living next door to St Augustine!  All cities around the world have some history behind them.  The question is, how unique is this history to the world that it should care about it?

Jacksonville is pretty much an average American city with a beach nearby.  There's nothing here that makes us "outstanding".  There is a reason why major companies use Jacksonville as a test bench for new products and marketing ideas.  Jacksonville represents the average American and the average American's lifestyle.  Think about this, how many other cities around the country has 4G installed (Clearwire)?  The data learned from this city is used to market to other places around the county!  

There's nothing wrong with being a good old fashion average city but that doesn't mean Jacksonville should stop growing!

Speaking for myself........I could care less what some yoyo in Timbucktoo has to say about Jacksonville! I mean sticks and stones yada yada! Live here then I make an exception for a different opinion but until that happens.....so flippin what?

Quote from: simms3 on August 20, 2010, 02:37:59 PM
^^^2nd.  Who is going to bash a city like Miami, Orlando, Las Vegas, or NOLA where people's memories of the place include theme parks, trendy fashionable beaches, and/or getting drunk at the Hustler bar and then getting laid.  It's sooo easy to target a city that has none of these things, and where people go to raise families (an entity arguably constantly under attack in this country nowadays).  The other things come into play, too.

I agree. I think Jacksonville is an excellent city to raise a family. The fact that its not a tourist town or major party city, give the perfect atmosphere to raise you children. It doesnt have some of the bad influences other major cities have (gangs, etc)

Quote from: thelakelander on August 20, 2010, 06:32:04 AM

QuoteSubmitted by Jeff Elliott on August 19, 2010 - 11:23pm

And you wonder why Jacksonville continues to fight a negative perception throughout the NFL?

Jason Cole is an award-winning writer who covered the Miami Dolphins for 15 years at The Miami Herald and the South Florida Sun Sentinel. He now lives in Gainesville and works for Yahoo.com. He’s currently about halfway through his excursion around the country visiting each of the NFL sites.

Here, in part, is how he opened his report on the Jaguars.

“Jacksonville might be the worst town in the NFL. The beaches are cool, featuring plenty of funky places to hang out for a beer. But Jacksonville completely lacks identity. There is nothing that defines it. It’s really just a series of housing developments connected by a beltway with I-95 splitting it pretty much down the middle.

“Fortunately, the distinct odor from the paper mills that defined Jacksonville (and Savannah, Ga., to the north) has been cleaned up. But if you’re looking for history and culture, Jacksonville doesn’t have much, aside from a couple of spots where the French, Spanish and English battled over property.”

This is a national report that circulated on Monday.

Now I’ve met Jason before. He’s been through Jacksonville and written stories from here.

Yet there it was this week, Jacksonville, a city that “completely lacks identity.” Right. Because, of course, we don’t have any golf courses, or beach resorts, or museums, or Naval history, or famous running races, or a sports complex, or paradise weather 11 months a year.

No, all those things are probably only found in Buffalo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh or a few choice others. Come on, Jason, you’re better than that.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/401949/jeff-elliott/2010-08-19/bashing-jacksonville-gets-little-old

Whatever


I said it before ill say it again. The Media hates Jax. Their just jealous they cant control Jax like they want to.

Jacksonville may do a bad job of marketing its history, culture, and other virtues, but it has plenty of virtues (including a remarkably rich and vastly underrated history).

Unfortunately, as has been covered quite thoroughly and effectively on this site, it seems to have a remarkably low opinion of itself, seemingly internalizing and embracing the ridicule it receives and believing it has little to offer.  

I don't tend to put much stock in the cleverness of sportswriters, but sometimes I wonder if at least a few of them perceive this about Jacksonville.  The exponential barrage of negative articles seems geared to get the people of Jacksonville to conclude their city is worthless and that the Jaguars will inevitably leave for someplace more glamorous.  It's like a mass PR campaign to con people out of supporting the hometown team.  Certain sportswriters scarcely can conceal their glee at the thought of the team's relocation.

We want Jacksonville to be a party town. We do not want Jacksonville to be boring any longer. Jacksonville has been boring for long enough. That is the image we want Jacksonville to have is a party image. Does anyone really think that Jacksonville can be known as this big major city but have the small town image at the same time??? Guess what.... That's the image that they have been trying to portray for years and it does not work! As the saying goes, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Jacksonville obviously thinks it can. I would take heed to what this writer says, because he's right. Personally I am tired of all of these cities surpassing Jacksonville and here we are still the same. Nobody here wants to bring any type of real tourism in here, but then they complain when people talk smack about Jacksonville. Please just keep an open ear to these critics. It's time for the mentality of this city to change. It really is. Jacksonville is a Florida city, so let's start thinking like one.

Quote from: stephendare on August 20, 2010, 06:45:16 PM
Except that Jacksonville doesnt have an 'average' history.  We don't even have an 'interesting' history.

We have a fucking remarkable history that makes this place one of the more unique stories of the East Coast.

The genesis of the Black American Cultural experience began in LaVilla and Sugar Hill. James Weldon Johnson, A Phillip Randolph, Zora Neale Hurston, Eartha White, Bess Coleman, The Afro American Insurance Company, Hank Aaron, the Negro Baseball League and a host of black thinkers, writers, musicians, poets, innovators and millionaires are Jacksonvillians.  

This is the birthplace of Soul, the cradle of the Blues, the home base of Southern Fried Rock.

Women voted here, while they were still being arrested for smoking in Boston.  We had the largest municipal trolley system in the United States, and were one of the most famous Progressive Cities in the Country in the Progressive Era.

The Astors, Duponts, Morgans, and Flaglers made cold fortunes in this town, and our port innovated processes that revolutionized shipping the world around.

Even in vice we have a few trail blazers.

We don't even have run of the mill prostitutes in this town.  While the eastern seaboard had Sidney Biddle Barrows, whose primary distinction for being a madame was that she had been a debutante, Jacksonville's most famous madame Cora Taylor Crane was married to a living legend of literature, Stephen Crane, the author of The Red Badge of Courage.  She was friends with HG Wells, and Joseph Conrad, a member of the Fabian Society, and the first woman in western history to report from the field of battle during the Greek War.

This is in addition to the father of Gay pornography, Wakefield Poole having come here.  Like Cora, he didn't just distinguish himself in the field of vice with his ubiquitous invention, he was also a member in good standing of the Ballet Russe, and a longstanding voice on Broadway.  His friendship with Andy Warhol was close enough that his video montage of the Factory was played during Warhol's wake.

We had an actual german invasion on the shores of Ponte Vedra, and gave aid and comfort to every species of pirate in the region for more than a hundred years, including the nascent film industry.  

Don't have a history?

Give me a freaking break.

+1 doesn't begin to cover it.

How many cities have an architectural style unique to their region, were the breeding grounds for influential genres of music, served as the battlefield for two European powers' control of a territory, and witnessed the transformation of the film industry?

I'm sick of seeing people claim Jacksonville lacks history or distinction.  It's all part of that self-doubting internalization of the slings and arrows of other Florida cities and outsiders.  Stephen as usual put it far more eloquently and thoroughly than I could.

Quote from: stephendare on August 20, 2010, 06:50:53 PM
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2006-dec-what-if-jacksonville-suddenly-woke-up

Yep.

Stephen...great post afew post above. What do we have to do to take advantage of all this great history? It just seems lost in time. I do support the Jauguars, though!!!

I am convinced that the Jaguars are an economic and psychological plus (I know, surprise, surprise) and believe the negative psychological and national-image impact of losing them would be substantial.  But I was in love with Jacksonville before the team.  It is and has been an amazing city.  I love the Jaguars because I love Jacksonville and not vice versa.

Quote from: simms3 on August 20, 2010, 09:00:41 AM
PS: We really don't need or want people moving to our city who have no appreciation for our history and non-flashy ways of conducting business or living, and we don't need to spend time, effort, and energy convincing people who don't fit in to our city that our city is so great they shouldn't bash it, but should mover here.  I get soo frustrated too when people make fun of Jacksonville, but I am starting to realize our whole city is actually kind of exclusive and many people know they don't belong here, but they wish they did because of the location, the water, the scenery, and the weather.

Many people like to be the "big man" on their street or their block, and Jacksonville is not like that at all.  People here are usually the complete opposite and don't care who is the richest or coolest person on the block, so people with that attitude won't find what they are looking for here.

For the record Atlanta is a pretty similar city people-wise to Jacksonville and it catches about as much grief from the media as we do.  Anything wrong with Atlanta the media will continuously harp on without mentioning any of the positives, and it's probably because they wish they could fit in with Atlanta's ITP society where everyone also knows each other and history is abundant.

Simms I know you & I both live in The Plastic Peach and both have roots in the Backwards River and most of what you said I totally agree with. So + 1 on that. I think I am one of the types of people you are referring to with the Big Man on Campus statement. Its funny because I can think deep enough not to be offended. I like flash, I like cool trendy stuff, I dont think everyone should be hip or posh, but I do like for the option to be available. Jax & Atl are so similar its not even funny. Sometimes the statements I hear in Atlanta are the same thing I would here in Jacksonville. I find I get along better with people NOT from Georgia, same as I did in Jax, Im a Navy brat and got along better with other Navy brats, people from Jax I never really saw eye to eye with a lot of them. I wouldnt go to another city and bash it for the sake I feel Im powerful enough to hurt it. A lot of these media guys think they are powerful enough to persuad the masses to hate the COJ. They had this agenda for years

I still think the history in Jacksonville, while important in it's own way, are still things that the world really doesn't care about to put it in a history book.  Due to our size, our history may be slightly above average, but there are hundreds of cities in the United States - thousands in the world.  Millions throughout the civilization of mankind from Cairo all the way to Rome all the way to New York.  It's hard for me to say if our story fits in the upper echelon of human history.  All cities in this planet have a history, the question is how does this history of Jacksonville compare to other places around the world?  Does this history have a place that generations upon generations of people through the world should learn it vs other areas?

From the reactions to this thread, the one thing I do see Jacksonville has is - insecurity.  Jacksonville is what Jacksonville is.  Attacking sports writers isn't going to change the city, changing the city will change the city.  

History of any city, culture, or community is important.  The history of the world and mankind as we know it is the sum total of ALL local history.  History is integral to the very identity we cherish both as individuals and as a community, locally, nationally, and globally.  To diminish that history is to diminish our own self esteem and self worth as we are the embodiment of that.  A shared history is also what both binds us together and bonds us to the the place that we live.  Without it, one place becomes indistinguishable from another.  We are all just "passing through" with little loyalty or affection for our "home".

I seldom visit a city or other place for any amount of time that I don't take the opportunity, via the internet or other resources, to consider their history.  It gives me an immediate appreciation for the area and allows me to better immerse myself in the experience of my visit.  Often, such history leads me to the most interesting and instructive cultural and geographic sites as well.  When I leave such a place, I feel an everlasting attachment and affection for it as I have come to know it and appreciate it.

I believe that such opportunities do much to motivate the wanderlust in us.  This in itself is a major economic development tool.  Unfortunately, Jax has lacked this appreciation, along with any long term vision, and has both ignored and diminished its history to the point that few appreciate what has transpired here.  This just cycles back to the lack of identity issue that started this thread.

Great cities do great jobs promoting their history (and, as Stephen noted, many of these cities have no more, and perhaps less, illustrious histories than Jax).  We must do the same if we are to climb the ladder we speak of.

Keep them coming Stephen, this history is facinating, Jacksonville truly was a fabulous place and will be again!

Quote from: stephendare on August 20, 2010, 09:23:35 AM
(http://www.phinatics.com/dougswebimages/jtpp05media.jpg)

hmm.  He doesnt look terribly bright, though.

He's the one in the middle.

What! ha ha ha ha that is un sexy! Him bashing Jax is funny

Some of these history lessons are interesting in their own right...but beyond that, it's a big old "so what?" isn't it? In all the major cities with real or adopted histories that tend to have that "enjoyable" reputation, the history has been embraced as part of the culture. Jacksonville simply hasn't embraced it's history, and as such, the culture has developed accordingly, i.e., nonexistantly. The history is interesting for history buffs and such, but it seems to have zero bearing on the culture of the city. As an outsider who has been been here for 5 years now, I can't identify a Jacksonville culture, and if someone living here can't, how would we expect people looking in to find one?

Quote from: stephendare on August 20, 2010, 09:23:35 AM
(http://www.phinatics.com/dougswebimages/jtpp05media.jpg)

hmm.  He doesnt look terribly bright, though.

He's the one in the middle.

What! ha ha ha ha that is un sexy! Him bashing Jax is funny

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on August 20, 2010, 09:48:41 AM
I think the analysis offered upthread is giving this writer too much credit.

A lot of members of the sports media are lemmings who follow a trend.  It's trendy to bash Jacksonville because it's a smaller market, in the South, and relatively low-profile, all of which are anathema to the trend-makers in the sports press.  The negativity toward Jacksonville began during the expansion race, and after dying down for a while due to the Jaguars' initial success and the city's intense response, it re-emerged when the city hosted the Super Bowl and sportswriters in search for an easy story (as always) decided to pick on the smaller, Southern city without as many obvious tourist sites.  (Full disclosure, I am an outsider who regularly visits Jacksonville and thinks it has a lot to offer in the way of tourism, but in ways that are subtle compared to other Florida destinations and not at all well marketed.)  Not-easily-understood but easily mocked factors such as the tarps and the Tebow cult have contributed more recently, along with last year's ticket sales swoon that has led to this year's exceptionally impressive sales surge being more or less ignored.

Most Jacksonville criticism from the sports press comes from those who have never been there or have the slightest and most peripheral experiences with the city, and are just looking for an easy story to write.  It's not legitimate criticism founded in experience or fact, even if portions of it occasionally are accurate by accident.  I maintain that even if you took all these guys to Kingsley Plantation and the LaVilla Museum and Avondale and San Marco for a day and showed them the city's wonderful hospitality, they'd still write the same article because it's easy and the prevailing, expected trend to follow.  Those from competing cities in the region cannibalistically and enthusiastically follow along even if they know the city well.

Tony Kornheiser started this garbage when he wrote his Super Bowl column that he later admitted was written without having ever visited the city, and then he started piling on with the "unknown city, unknown players, unknown team" mantra whenever there was an MNF broadcast in Jacksonville.  And the lemmings followed.

It is EXACTLY the same criticism in all circumstances and has been since '93.  You can wine and dine them at Morton's and they'll still write that the best restaurants in town are Applebee's and Waffle House.

Tony is an idiot everything he says is always viewed with laughter....I can see this topic bothers a lot of people, but the dude who wrote it, is not attractive or hip or cool in any regard. I know style and this dude has none....so basically its a joke.

How about Bashing Jacksonville Bashing gets a little old?

Snip

Quote from: stephendare on August 20, 2010, 10:08:57 PM
Consider, for example that the City has had, in living memory, simultaneously a Gay or Bisexual Mayor, School Board Superintendent, Governor----all popularly elected or appointed with the approval of the people.

Please elaborate Stephen.

Meh...I never said this place doesn't have a history (which is a stupid statement...everywhere has a history). My claim is that the culture of the city doesn't reflect the history. The readily observable culture around here is nothing really beyond <insert random city here>. You come close with the claim of "the rest of the country finally caught up to what Jacksonville already had," but even then, that's a negative for us - everyone else has what we have, PLUS some additional cultural background that comes from it's history that adds to the city's appeal.

Should Jacksonville have a fantastically defined culture based on it's history? Sure.

Does it? Again...meh - it's arguable that it's allowed itself to become just a generic American city.

Again, the history is fascinating in it's own right...but it's in the form of stores that need to be told, rather than history that smacks you in the face the minute you hear or set foot in the city.

Today, out on Old St. Augustine Road, seeing the hundreds of people welcoming Marine Corporal Tyler Southern back home...I was damn proud to be a resident of this city. 

Links to some of the photos here:
http://photos.jacksonville.com/mycapture/category.asp?eventID=1061375&CategoryID=14346

That joker who lives in that God-forsaken backwater craphole G-ville is talkin' noise about Jax? Just another reason for me to hate Gainesville. They might as well just rename it Gatorville, because that's the only thing that it's known for.

It is appearing to be a common thread in Jacksonville, some strong and talented women lived here, whether they be suffragists, brothel owners, jazz artists, business owners, artists, authors, or architects. It is unfortunate that most of the "places" these women lived, worked, or created are gone-but I would definately consider taking a vacation with my daughter to visit a museum based on this history. What if we still had the "Jacksonville Harlem", you could spend a weekend here strolling the river, hop a trolley and listen to fantastic jazz and blues. Or the brothel district, people are facinated with that whole era, in NOLA it is part of the tours. Now that is an identity! Too bad Jacksonville lost most of this in the race to become an average American city.

Fabulous Saturday morning coffee read- thank you Stephen!

Every time I think I know Jacksonville history, I come here and discover new, uncharted territory.

Stephen - could you explain the term "Porkchop Gang"?  I understand it has something to do with the Burns administration but that's it.

When commenting about accomplished women in early 1900s Jacksonville, let's not forget Henrietta Dozier, an architectural pioneer and one of the few women to attend and graduate MIT at that time.

Quote from: stephendare on August 20, 2010, 10:08:57 PM

Our history actually has been embraced by the population.  The average Jacksonville person is way more openminded and tolerant in my personal experience than the louts who claim to lead them.  They are also generally more intelligent and progressive thinking.

...

I agree with you that we don't celebrate it, but we do embrace it.  So thoroughly that it doesn't even occur to the rank and file.

Very true in my experience...everyone I've met from Jacksonville, from different parts of town and walks of life, seemed to know and appreciate the city's history quite well...part of why it's paradoxical to me that the city as a whole doesn't seem to appreciate itself or recognize its uniqueness. 

I'm amazed at all the comments that Jacksonville is average and generic.  The volume of unique features this city has is staggering.  No one I've ever taken there knows much about it in advance, but once they get there, they recognize it, without fail.

Quote from: stephendare on August 20, 2010, 10:08:57 PM
Look at the remarkable careers of Frances Kinne, Eve Heaney, Mary Sue Griffin, Tillie Fowler, Corrine Brown, Betty Holzendorff, the women of RAP, San Marco and SPAR, Jesse Lynn Kerr, Ann Hyman, Blaire Woolverton, JuJu Taylor, Sylvia Simmons, Pat Hannan and so many many other women who trailblazed careers in Jacksonville long before women were 'allowed' to progress in the other great southern cities.

They may have all voted republican and talked up the merits of americanism vs communism, but take a more incisive look...why did women do so much better, so much sooner here than in other Southern cities?  Its because of the background of our history and culture.

You might not have noticed American Beach, just to the north of the city, but has it ever occurred to you that its strange that there would be an all black stretch of Florida Real Estate left along the Ocean on the East Coast, in between some of the most expensive stretches of american seaboard?

Regardless of the rhetoric and the misleadership of the Ed Ball Era, that heritage is part of this place and this culture.  You don't see all black owned beaches in Connecticut do ya?

How about the fact that our Arabic families have all been here for more than a hundred years?  Or that there is a huge upscale Jewish population that lives in this town whose names covered all the department stores and shops of the entire city?

Do you suppose that's because there has always been basic toleration in this area?  Despite flareups with rustics?

Perhaps you can't see our history and our culture all around you, but that's only because the rest of the country finally caught up to what Jacksonville already had.

And that isn't even mentioning the unstopped flow of the musical originality that emanates from this town.

I agree with you that we don't celebrate it, but we do embrace it.  So thoroughly that it doesn't even occur to the rank and file.

I think its time we rediscovered our full heritage and began understanding why Jacksonville is the way that it is.

Both whats wrong with it, and whats right.

Love this quote...goes along with what I was saying in that most of the residents/natives of Jacksonville have such long family histories (and awesome family histories at that) and people at bare minimum loosely know each other or know of each other.  Even so many people that move here, whether from Buffalo, Chicago, Atlanta, or any other city have long family histories there that may be tied here and can relate.  It's offputting to people like Tony and others who look at Jacksonville from the outside and see what is basically a close-knit gang of over a million people, and they don't fit in.  I think people are actually jealous.

Do we embrace our history?  Well many of the citizens do, but I highly doubt half of the city council does or city hall staffers.  Have we moved a long way past the Pork Chop Gang (small gang of a few people who somehow held a stranglehold on the rest of the city)?  I think mostly so.

Also for famous or well known women, I think in retrospect we are going to have to add Betsy Lovett just for her status as a major socialite and respectable donor for just about everything going on in this city.  I know her and she would have been front and center in the women's suffrage movement had she lived that long ago.  She almost single handedly runs the civilian part of this town (all of the charities and social fund raisers, and pulls A LOT of weight).

And might I add that for museums and libraries, I would put Jacksonville (metro, including St. Augie) at the top of the list in the whole SE.  MOSH is actually larger than almost any other museum in FL (around 80,000 SF) and larger than most in the SE.  Atlanta, the largest city, has Fernbank, but they are roughly comparable with one not way better than the other.

Our library system is ranked the highest in the SE by HAPLRS, the official library ranking system.  Well actually Palm Beach is a couple points higher on a scale of 1,000.  We dominate even the larger cities of Atlanta, Houston, Miami, Dallas, etc, and the only Main Library larger and potentially better than ours is the one in Dallas, which is ugly and brutalist compared to our jewel designed by my favorite architect, Robert A.M. Stern (and our main library is significantly larger than the others,even Atlanta's crappy main library).

For art museums, the Cummer ranks right up there with the best (aside from the High and museums in Dallas and Houston).  I would put the Cummer ahead of the Miami Art Museum in space and exhibits, and fame.  I would also say we have more of a burgeoning art community in Jacksonville than most cities our size or in the south with a few exceptions like in St. Petersburg, the Keys, and New Orleans.  I would not be surprised if we had more galleries than Atlanta.

We still have the Florida Theater, a significant theater, and many cities our size or in the south can't lay claim to having such a famous old theater (let alone a theater school/troupe based in the theater).

When you add St. Augustine, Fernandina Beach, Timucuan Perserve, Huguenot Park, and all of the other little museums and preserves, we have way more history and potential culture and potential identity than almost any other city our size and definitely any other city in the south.

Also, the Times Union Center is piss poor imho, but easily comparable if not better than most performing arts centers in cities our size or in the south.

Let's not even forget to mention that we have one of maybe just a few super significant old train stations here that is essentially a replica of the old Penn Station in New York (and thank God it survived the wrecking ball, but people were actually considering demolishing it!).

All of this is easily enough to make people jealous if they know about these assets we have.  And we have all of this even though our city is soooo cheap and has basically the lowest milleage rate in the state because we have people in our city that have always graciously given a very considerable chunk of their wealth to keep our city up.  For a city our size without any billionaires we have quite a bit (we can basically compete with Atlanta on many levels, and the city of Atlanta has at least 5 permanent billionaires living there).

Not that high schools are the end all be all (universities are and that's where we lack significantly, but UNF is making strides and people like Betsy Lovett and Ann Hix and so many others who are Ivey Leaguers are actually boosting and supporting UNF like no other), but we have Episcopal High School (there are a few, but literally ours is 2nd most well known and respected nationally behind the one in Alexandria) and Bolles.  I don't want to leave out the other schools (St. Johns is so small and the other schools don't really have the same rep), but these two high schools are more renowned than most colleges!  How many cities can lay claim to having entities such as these?

Finally, comparing to cities our size only, our fine dining, retail, and hotels easily outcompete what you would find in Louisville, Oklahoma City, Buffalo, Hartford, Milwaukee, Providence, SLC, and tons of other cities.  If we add just one or two nicer department stores and a couple more chain boutiques, we could just about compete with some of the much larger cities in the 2-4 million person range, that's how close we are.

We have local restaurants serving locally grown food in what Vicarious Cari described as the slow snail of approval movement, and it seems we are ahead of the game on this movement moreso than most cities.  Even Atlanta has to catch up (crappy farmers market in Atlanta and Atlanta is still stuck on importing chefs from New York and creating some overpriced restaurant with ok food but "really cool" decor).  Our flea markets and farmers markets and arts markets are some serious stuff that put us waaayyyy ahead of almost every other city in the country in this department.  Hopefully some transplants here can back me up on this (what I said in prior sentence), but even before the organic movement, many restaurants that served seafood mainly served up seafood locally caught that same day or the day or two before.  It is hard to get more local than that.  Our Publixes have Mayport Shrimp for Pete's sake.  I shop in Publix up here every day and I can't find anything local except for Vidalia Onions, which are actually grown closer to Jax than Atlanta!

I can go on, but if Jacksonville were to increase its advertising budget to at least St. Augustine or Ponte Vedra's budget numbers and we got some of our best institutions (did I mention our zoo is tops in the country?  It really is and its attendance should be over a million, not over 600,000) to do some package deals where people can choose difference packages offering a round at the TPC, a day or two in St. Augie (with its own packages), a half day or so at the Zoo, and throw in the Cummer, Mosh, meals at some of our better restaurants, a day in Fernandina with a visit to Fort CLinch (and if it's the right weekend a day pass to the Concours...one of the top 3 car auctions in the country), etc.  Get the picture?  The first time I visited Atlanta was back when I was in 8th grade and my parents knew I wanted to go to Tech, so we made an early visit.  We bought a package that allowed us to see a Braves Game, have a day at 6 Flags, a pass to Whitewater (which we passed on), a visit to the High, food at the Varsity, and a trip to Stone Mountain.  It was a package deal, well advertised, and easily purchased.  It was also worth it and the trip was fun.

The old castle fortress looking building on Liberty at (Union?) with the cannons out front- Elvis did a concert there and apparently that place was PACKED. I love that building and wished it was used for something...anything....

^^^^The old Armory.  Constructed from 1915-1916.  You're talking about the brick building with the parapets right?

That is the one! I love that building!

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on August 20, 2010, 02:14:09 PM
I'd agree that Jacksonville lacks a national identity.  Its national claim to fame is the Jaguars.  Of course, some know about the St. John's, some know about the beaches, some know it as the entryway to Florida, some know about the former predominance of the insurance industry, some know the old paper mill smell problem (which Kornheiser perpetuated as though it still existed in his Super Bowl writings).  Quite a few people do not know where in Florida Jacksonville is located, or that it has beaches.

To say Jacksonville lacks the components for an identity, or lacks an identity to those who know it well, is not accurate.  I think everyone I've ever taken to Jacksonville or shared my love of the city with knows it as an exceptionally friendly place, as maintaining southern character (in the best sense) in a transient state, and for its distinctive architecture and neighborhoods.  They also know it as a city defined by the river.

All of that said, once again, I guarantee you the author was not making an enlightened and considered commentary on Jacksonville's identity or lack thereof with this piece.  He was taking an easy shot at a place that a slew of sportswriters are taking shots at without really knowing anything about it.  Because doing that is trendy and expected in the sports commentary community.

Many people still do not know where Jacksonville is located geographically. I say the St. John River is the crown jewel of Jax, just underpromoted and under used.....I still say if there was a Jetski rental and license place downtown during the summer it would be BAD ASS!! the St. Johns is where the heart is.....if its still dirty they need to treat it, if its clean they need to promote!

nexttime anyone needs to give directions to any out-of-towners_ if they're arriving by car, and end up at Forest St. from 10/95, present them and their eyes with the great view of the river before them as they see the skyline from that particular entrance to the riverside neighborhoods, downtown, Springfield.
Late to the list of sorely needed revisions to this landmark junction, but truly the most improved redesign I've been able to appreciate.
The truth behind blowing the pavement out to the full width of the easements is that the FDOT has known for years this would be sent back to the drawing board, and Arvida (St.Joe connection) held more land and developments (largest landholder in FL for decades) adjacent to McCoyCreek, TU, rail.
It's my favorite new approach to show off to others. On a sunny day.. .can hardly wait to see final plans for the dogpark between artist walk, PS#4, and that abandoned brick chunk of a derelict (school?) building across from Forest St Animal control..? Any leads?

Quote from: uptowngirl on August 21, 2010, 10:43:20 AM
The old castle fortress looking building on Liberty at (Union?) with the cannons out front- Elvis did a concert there and apparently that place was PACKED. I love that building and wished it was used for something...anything....

That building is occupied, it's the Jax Dept of Recreation on Market St.

http://jacksonville.citysearch.com/profile/39951363/jacksonville_fl/jacksonville_parks_rec_dept.html

Have they recently moved in? I was there a year ago and while there was one or two people in there the rest of the place was vacant. It is available for rent though (ir it was).

Parks and Rec is now in the Ed Ball Building.