A Look at BRT: The Kansas City MAX
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/968125607_u4qEX-M.jpg)
As JTA looks into investing our hard earned tax dollars into bus rapid transit, Metro Jacksonville highlights one of the most successful recently completed BRT projects: The Kansas City MAX
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-aug-a-look-at-brt-the-kansas-city-max
Seems to me that JTA ain't listening to anyone but JTA, regardless of how logical an argument anyone makes for rail. I'm guessing it's because we're asking them to do something they have no idea how to execute. An organization whose purpose was always to build and maintain roads wants to stay that way. The only way to get this done the right way is to overhaul JTA with new people (appointees by new mayor, perhaps), or just eliminate JTA all together. Seems like the city doesn't care what its people want. Instead of trying to get them to listen, it's time to try to get them gone. They've had opportunity after opportunity, but they've failed every time.
Why in the hell would that Chamber/City delegation go tot KC and NOT examine the BRT there? Inexcuseable.
many of them believe transportation and economic development are linked....just not transit and economic development.
Well bus based transit and economic development really aren't as linked as some (like CUTR, goBRT, etc.) would like people to believe.
"from the Plaza to Downtown in 18 minutes"....yeah...uh, it takes about that long or less by car...I've spent time driving around KC. KC has the same problem that Jacksonville has when it comes to reliable mass transit - everything is spread out....way out. You have to take the expressway to go everywhere unless you're within the core. And, unfortunately, while the Core has had some serious developments come in, like the Power and Light District and the sports center, it's still a struggling downtown, much like Jacksonville. There just aren't enough people that can afford to live downtown not in the ghetto to make it work....yet. It's getting there though. They've talked about incorporating rail in KC for years now. Just recently North KC voted to add rail transit. Unfortunately KC voted NOT to have rail transit....a failure on the part of those responsible for educating the public on mass transit realities. It will get there though. Jacksonville I'm not so sure about.
I just got through going through the article and several things stand out! One of which is a lack of advertising on any of the Max stops! Clean and minimal, I would have to say, none of those shelters would cost $24,000 per unit to install or maintain! Lighting could even go solar with a minimum of muss and fuss. Second, there appears to be no infill taking place and this is after 5 years in operation? Article said nothing at all about total ridership numbers either......50% increase would not translate into much if ridership were only 100 people a week. As this would apply to Jacksonville,IMHO, is no more than what JTA's idea of BRT is translating into. I have yet to see anything dealing with increasing ridership and if the drivers go on strike, it will be the kiss of death!
QuoteI would have to say, none of those shelters would cost $24,000 per unit to install or maintain!
Forget about installing and maintaining. I'm sure those MAX shelters cost a lot more than $24,000 just to purchase. The system cost $21 million to implement. Since they are running on a street that was already there, the majority of that money had to dropped on those shelters, a couple of buses and signaling. As for development, that thing isn't going to pull in a dime. Its a well run bus corridor that doesn't zig zag and loop around like the typical JTA buses do. So, its a lot more reliable for a bus rider but its not enough to attract a developer to spend millions building something next to it. After all, if that system failed they could simply pluck those shelters (they call them stations) right out of the sidewalks.
lake I concur! That system will not pull in ANY kind of development........it is a plain and simple people mover! Just like our BRT will be upon completion but with a small difference! Based upon the projected route, I am not sure that is the best route. I have already bite the bullet, knowing full well that we will be subsidizing that also! That $12 Million is just a plain and outright waste of resources! At least those shelters,being replaced along the BRT route, will be refurbished and set out somewhere along the 1,800 stops that have nothing right now!
Quote from: archiphreak on August 13, 2010, 11:08:30 AM
"from the Plaza to Downtown in 18 minutes"....yeah...uh, it takes about that long or less by car...I've spent time driving around KC. KC has the same problem that Jacksonville has when it comes to reliable mass transit - everything is spread out....way out. You have to take the expressway to go everywhere unless you're within the core. And, unfortunately, while the Core has had some serious developments come in, like the Power and Light District and the sports center, it's still a struggling downtown, much like Jacksonville. There just aren't enough people that can afford to live downtown not in the ghetto to make it work....yet. It's getting there though. They've talked about incorporating rail in KC for years now. Just recently North KC voted to add rail transit. Unfortunately KC voted NOT to have rail transit....a failure on the part of those responsible for educating the public on mass transit realities. It will get there though. Jacksonville I'm not so sure about.
Actually the voters led the charge for light rail and got stomped by the highway boys through the KC City Council. In Jacksonville we have been fighting this nonsense for 30 years and are finally seeing some light, KC hasn't been in the game nearly as long and apparently the Rail advocates were not fully aware of the dirt that the highway lobby can pump out.
DAMN THE TORPEDOES - FULL SPEED AHEAD!QuoteKC City Council overturns voter-approved light-rail initiative
Friday, November 9, 2007
seMissourian.com
KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) -- The City Council has repealed a light-rail plan approved by voters last year, calling the $1 billion-plus plan unfeasible and too expensive.
The council's 10-3 decision Thursday capped months of activity and negotiations since voters last year approved light-rail advocate Clay Chastain's 27-mile light-rail line from Swope Park to Kansas City International Airport.
Council members said they would have to move ahead with developing their own plan.
"This plan can never be built," said Councilman Ed Ford, who has led the council's latest light-rail efforts. He said the repeal was not undemocratic because the city charter provides checks and balances that allow the council to overturn unworkable initiatives.
Chastain had hoped to persuade council members not to repeal his plan. Instead, he wanted to have revisions made to his plan and presented to voters in February. But he didn't get a chance to address the council.
After the vote, he vowed there would be a legal challenge.
"Today the City Council did a bad thing," Chastain said. "They slapped democracy in the face."
Chastain's plan would have been funded starting in 2009 by a 3/8-cent sales tax that currently funds the local bus operations through 2009. Kansas City Area Transportation Authority officials contend that losing the funds would devastate their operations, and council members want to have an election next year to renew the tax for buses.
SOURCE:
http://www.semissourian.com/story/1289939.html
OCKLAWAHA
So the MAX was so successful since 2005 that voters still pushed for LRT against the transit authority's and council's wishes? Any idea why they didn't beg for more BRT?
$21 million for 6 miles? On an existing street? Could this be the Skyway on rubber tires?
Streets look blah to dead in these pictures as well.
Also, those "stations" are hideous. Over sized at 1 1/3 stories tall, they compete with the buildings they are in front of and block most of the width of the sidewalks. And, I bet the stainless steel finish makes for a blinding mirror of the sun.
LOL, because in NYC they do next to none of this yet everyone figures out the system just fine, millions of visitors included. [Ironic that one of the grimiest systems in the country remains its most used.] If you are looking for a stop, you will (a) be looking for a nice bus stop size sign on a street side post, (b) been directed by a friendly local, or (c) found the spot on a transit map, smart phone app, or GPS device. Who needs these large than life monstrosities that serve more as monuments to the transit agencies than aides to the public? Are there any transportation planners in this country with common sense and a need to stretch their dollars? Have they all gone mad?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/968121730_rPAmS-M.jpg)
I for one believe that you don't need millions of federal dollars to accomplish a bus corridor such as this one or the ones proposed by JTA. It's not the expensive bells and whistles that attract choice riders. It really boils down to the basics of (1) reliability, (2) being end user friendly, and (3) directly taking the masses to where they want to go. This can be accomplished without real time information, traffic signal priority and dedicated bus lanes.
Before we really blow an opportunity to get commuter rail on the FEC or CSX A lines, I'd really like JTA to actually attempt to run what basically amounts to being a limited stop bus line with frequent headways and stops with shelters (and system maps) along these BRT corridors. Either way, you're not going to get any TOD out of it, so you might as well make this bus thing as cost efficient and economical as possible.
Quote from: stjr on August 17, 2010, 08:59:30 PM
$21 million for 6 miles? On an existing street? Could this be the Skyway on rubber tires?
well that's $3.5 million a mile...for comparion, Tampa is looking at spending $1.3 Billion to build about 13 miles of light rail....that's $100 million a mile.
so no, it's not a skyway on rubber tires.
Tufsu, I must be in the wrong business, These numbers seem absurd for the distances and "apparent" effort involved.
Does Tampa's light rail cost include construction only or also ROW acquisition? At grade or above grade? Bridges or all on land? What's its capacity vs. KC's BRT?
KC's BRT used existing streets. Are you comparing apples to apples? Or, just grabbing at data to overstate your point? ;D
Tampa doesn't know what their actual plan will be or how much it will really cost. However, they want people to agree to tax themselves for it first.
Based on that scenario.............I would bet the proposal will fail! No one will willingly tax themselves, in any way, without a picture or plan laid out to digest! stjr ......I agree with your points! I could live with an additional tax, split up the way it was discussed, but would like something to see, touch and smell before making that decision......stops was not mentioned nor the bldg/infrastructure for the stops!
Wow, nice quote from Nat Ford in this 2010 Metro Jacksonville article on BRT:
Quote"Streetcars do more for economic development than buses. Rail projects are very expensive but tend to be permanent. And you get the economic development around stops that you normally don't see with bus operations."
Nathaniel Ford - Executive Director of San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-aug-a-look-at-brt-the-kansas-city-max