Metro Jacksonville

Pick the one that is closest to what you think should go there (regardless of whether public or private) just the type of building will suffice for now.

Keeping in mind that the 680' Pier is kept for public use at the least!

I picked other.  DT needs organic uses that stimulate long term economic growth. So at this point, i'm going to go with a  working waterfront filled with maritime oriented uses and public space.  By maritime, I don't mean a container port but but maybe a mix of uses like a fisherman's wharf, seafood restaurants, marinas, small boat repair, marine science school, etc.

lake............only question that I would have is simple.........what about parking?

Parking should be the least of our concerns on a site that large.

lake if we are talking about multiuse or what ever, we only have x amount of area (44 acres?) who ever is going to be there has to come there somehow? Water......maybe, but vehicles have to part someplace! Rail would be great for in and out but still have to get to the rail!

We currently have more parking stalls than people in DT.  On street parking on Bay and the use of existing lots should be fine. If more is needed, a garage or mass transit can become a part of the picture.

I agree with the parking end, if BRT does not shoot that down in flames, a garage or mass transit is just going to add to the cost though! No matter what goes into there, all aspects are going to have to be looked at not only for now, but future useage also!

I am going with the waterfront open public park.  A once in a lifetime opportunity.  Future generations will thank us endlessly for the vision to preserve this spot as green space.  Every major world city on water has a park like this.  If we want to join the club, we need to step up to the plate.  Economic development will come from all those residents who want to live and work in proximity to such a grand space.  See development around Memorial Park in Riverside for an example.  Or, New York's Central Park.  Great urban parks drive development.

Quote from: stephendare on August 11, 2010, 10:02:45 PM
This is an oft repeated meme, stjr.  

Can you provide any evidence of it?

Stephen, won't take my word for it, eh?  How about the American Planning Association [APA includes a professional institute for certified planners, 47 chapters, 20 divisions, and special memberships for students].  

See below:

QuoteHow Cities Use Parks for Economic Development

Executive Summary

Parks provide intrinsic environmental, aesthetic, and recreation benefits to our cities. They are also a source of positive economic benefits.They enhance property values, increase municipal revenue, bring in homebuyers and workers, and attract retirees.

At the bottom line, parks are a good financial investment for a community. Understanding the economic impacts of parks can help decision makers better evaluate the creation and maintenance of urban parks.

KEY POINT #1:
Real property values are positively affected.

More than 100 years ago, Frederick Law Olmsted conducted a study of how parks help property values. From 1856 to 1873 he tracked the value of property immediately adjacent to Central Park, in order to justify the $13 million spent on its creation. He found that over the 17-year period there was a $209 million increase in the value of the property impacted by the park.

As early as the 19th century the positive connection between parks and property values was being made. Olmsted's analysis shows the real dollar amount impact of parks. His study was not a unique situation, however. Several studies conducted over the last 20 years reaffirm his findings, in cities across the country. Below are more examples of how proximity to a park setting is connected to property values.

Chattanooga,Tennessee: In the early 1980s this city was facing rising unemployment and crime, polluted air, and a deteriorating quality of life.To lure middle-class residents back, local government, businesses, and community groups decided to improve the quality of life by cleaning the air, acquiring open space,and creating parks and trails.As a result, property values rose more than $11 million, an increase of 127.5 percent.

Atlanta: After Centennial Olympic Park was built, adjacent condominium prices rose from $115 to $250 a square foot. As noted on the Centennial Olympic Park website, "Thousands of people who have made the move to downtown Atlanta have chosen Centennial Olympic Park as their front yard." www.centennialpark.com.

Amherst, Massachusetts: Cluster housing with dedicated open space was found to appreciate at an annual rate of 22 percent, compared to a comparable conventional subdivision's rate of 19.5 percent. This translated in 1989 dollars to a difference of $17,100.

KEY POINT #2:
Municipal revenues are increased.

Another component of the Central Park study was an assessment of increased tax revenue as a result of the park. The annual excess of increase in tax from the $209 million in property value was $4 million more than the increase in annual debt payments for the land and improvement. As a result of building Central Park, New York City made a profit.

Increased property values and increased municipal revenues go hand in hand. Property tax is one of the most important revenue streams for cities. By creating a positive climate for increased property values,the tax rolls will benefit in turn.As shown with Central Park, parks can both pay for themselves and generate extra revenue. In addition, tax revenues from increased retail activity and tourism-related expenditures further increase municipal monies.
Property Tax Benefits

Chattanooga: Improvements in Chattanooga resulted in an increase in annual combined city and county property tax revenues of $592,000 from 1988 to 1996, an increase of 99 percent. (Lerner and Poole, 1999).
Boulder: The presence of a greenbelt in a Boulder neighborhood was found to add approximately $500,000 in property tax revenue annually.
Sales Tax Benefits

Oakland, California: The presence of the East Bay Regional Park District is estimated to stimulate about $254 million annually in park-related purchases, of which $74 million is spent in the local East Bay economy.
Shopping Districts: Surveys indicate that prices for products in districts with trees were on average about 11 percent greater than in no-tree districts; the quality of products were rated 30 percent higher than in areas with no sidewalk landscaping.
Tourism-Related Benefits

Atlanta: Centennial Olympic Park has an estimated 1.5 million visitors each year, attending 175 public events.
San Antonio,Texas: Riverwalk Park, created for $425,000, is lined with outdoor cafes, shops, bars, art galleries, and hotels, and has overtaken the Alamo as the most popular attraction for the city's $3.5-billion tourism industry.

KEY POINT #3:
Affluent retirees are attracted and retained.

"There is a new, clean growth industry in America today â€" The industry is retirement migration" (Foreward in Longino, 1995, 7).

By the year 2050, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, approximately 1 in every 4 Americans will be 65 years of age or older, creating an affluent group of retirees with financial benefits, including Social Security, military benefits, and pension plans.With an average life expectancy of between 75 and 83 years, this is a significant population group, both in size and affluence.

They are also mobile, moving to various locations across the country â€" places as diverse as northern Wisconsin and Michigan, the mountains of Colorado and Montana, and New England. Members of this mobile retiree cohort have been termed "GRAMPIES": (Growing [number of] Retired Active Monied People In Excellent Shape).

GRAMPIES want communities that provide leisure and recreation amenities. In a study by Miller et al. (1994), a retiree sample was asked to review 14 features and indicate their importance in the decision to move. The first three in rank order were scenic beauty, recreational opportunities, and mild climate.

Retirees bring expendable income into their communities. If 100 retired households come to a community in a year, each with a retirement income of $40,000, their impact is similar to that of a new business spending $4 million annually in the community. (Crompton, p. 65).

They increase the tax base and are "positive" taxpayers, using fewer services than they pay for through taxes. For example, they pay taxes to school districts but do not send children there.

Retirees transfer significant assets into local investment and banking institutions, expanding the local deposit base that can be used for commercial and industrial financing.

KEY POINT #4:
Knowledge workers and talent are attracted to live and work.

"...cities are characterized by a sense of place, beauty in the natural environment, a mixed-use transportation system and a 24-hour lifestyle. These are the characteristics that will attract the creativity and brainpower that undergird the new economy." Steven Roulac, futurist, The Roulac Group.

A significant change has occurred in the American economy. Industry today is composed of smokeless industries, high technology, and service-sector businesses, collectively referred to as the "New Economy." The workers in the New Economy are selling their knowledge, as opposed to physical labor, as the main source of wealth creation and economic growth. These employees, referred to in studies as "knowledge workers" or "talent," work in a "footloose" sector â€" companies are not tied to a certain location in order to achieve a competitive advantage.

What the companies are attached to is retaining their talent and attracting more talent. As a result, several studies have been conducted to determine what factors are important to talent when they are making employment decisions.

A survey of 1,200 high technology workers in 1998 by KPMG found that quality of life in a community increases the attractiveness of a job by 33 percent.

Knowledge workers prefer places with a diverse range of outdoor recreational activities, from walking trails to rock climbing. Portland, Seattle, Austin, Denver, and San Francisco are among the top cycling cities; they also are among the leaders in knowledge workers.

Workers attracted to an area are then positioned to put money back into the local economy through jobs, housing, and taxes, which then contribute to parks.

KEY POINT #5:
Homebuyers are attracted to purchase homes.

"Parks, ponds, bike paths." "Nearly five acres of woodland protected as a nature sanctuary" "My lake...my park...my home."

All around the U.S. real estate brokers and homebuilders are advocating parks as one of the top residential selling points. The desire to live near parks also translates into real dollars.

A 2001 survey by the National Association of Realtors (NAR) revealed that 57 percent of voters would choose a home close to parks and open space over one that was not.

In addition, the NAR survey found that 50 percent of voters would be willing to pay 10 percent more for a house located near a park or protected open space.

The National Association of Home Builders found that 65 percent of home shoppers surveyed felt that parks would seriously influence them to move to a community.

According to Economics Research Associates (ERA), a 1991 survey in Denver found that 48 percent of residents would pay more to live in a neighborhood near a park or greenway.

One of the most popular planned community models today is golf-course residential development. However, surveys have shown that the majority of people who live in golf course communities don't play golf regularly â€" as many as two-thirds, according to ERA. They are attracted to the dedicated open space, the expansive views, and the guarantee that both elements will stay the same. By promoting, supporting, and revitalizing urban parks, cities can help attract a significant portion of the homebuying community.

Resources

Association of Foreign Investors in Real Estate. December 11, 2000. "Ten U.S. Cities Among 20 in the World Poised to Reap Benefits of New Economy." Press Release:The Roulac Group.

Center for Urban Horticulture. November 1998. "Trees in Business Districts: Positive Effects on Consumer Behavior!" Seattle,Wash.: University of Washington.

Crompton, John L. November 2001. Parks and Economic Development. PAS Report No. 502. Chicago: APA.

Florida, Richard. January 2000."Competing in the Age of Talent: Quality of Place and the New Economy." Prepared for the R.K. Mellon Foundation, Heinz Endowments, and Sustainable Pittsburgh.

Foster, Mary. November 6, 1999. "Better homes have gardens, parks." New Orleans Times-Picayune.

Handley, John. September 5, 1999. "Gold Medal." Chicago Tribune, Section 16, Real Estate.

Harnik, Peter. 2000. Inside City Parks. Washington, D.C.: Urban Land Institute.

Lerner, Steve and William Poole. 1999. The Economic Benefits of Parks and Open Space: How Land Conservation Helps Communities Grow and Protect the Bottom Line. The Trust for Public Land.

Longino, C.F. Jr. 1995. Retirement Migration in America. Houston: Vacation Publications.

MacKay, Ned. December 21, 2000. "Putting a price on the value of open space." Contra Costa Times, Oakland, Cal.

Miller, W., et al. 1994. Retirement In-Migration Study. Mississippi State, Miss.: Southern Rural Development Center.

National Park Service. 1995. Economic Impacts of Protecting Rivers,Trails, and Greenway Corridors: A Resource Book.Washington, D.C.: NPS Rivers, Trails and Conservation Assistance. Fourth Edition.

Phillips, Patrick L. n.d. ERA Issue Paper: Real Estate Impacts of Urban Parks. Los Angeles: Economics Research Associates.

Urban Land Institute. 1994. Golf Course Development and Real Estate. Washington, D.C.: Urban Land Institute.

For further information on this paper, please contact the author, Megan Lewis, AICP, Assistant Director of The City Parks Forum, 312-786-6363; mlewis@planning.org.

City Parks Forum Briefing Papers

This is one in a continuing series of briefing papers on how cities can use parks to address urban challenges. We hope the information here helps you to create great urban parks in your city.

http://www.planning.org/cityparks/briefingpapers/economicdevelopment.htm

I picked the open space.

Most of the development around Memorial Park was streetcar driven. Memorial Park we know of today came later.

Stephen, here is another:

QuoteThe Urban Institute

In the mid-1960s, President Johnson saw the need for independent nonpartisan analysis of the problems facing America's cities and their residents. The President created a blue-ribbon commission of civic leaders who recommended chartering a center to do that work. In 1968, the Urban Institute became that center.

Today, we analyze policies, evaluate programs, and inform community development to improve social, civic, and economic well-being. We work in all 50 states and abroad in over 28 countries, and we share our research findings with policymakers, program administrators, business, academics, and the public online and through reports and scholarly books.

Full article at:  http://www.urban.org/uploadedPDF/311011_urban_parks.pdf

Introduction below:[/b]

Quote
The Public Value of Urban Parks
Chris Walker

Parks have long been recognized as major
contributors to the physical and aesthetic
quality of urban neighborhoods. But a new,
broader view of parks has recently been
emerging. This new view goes well beyond
the traditional value of parks as places of
recreation and visual assets to communities,
and focuses on how policymakers, practitioners,
and the public can begin to think about
parks as valuable contributors to larger urban
policy objectives, such as job opportunities,
youth development, public health, and community
building.

This first in a series of policy briefs reviews
the traditional value of parks and explains how
parks are claiming new attention for their
broader potential. It goes on to discuss
how parks are building new partnerships to
strengthen their communities in these
broader waysâ€"but that, to do so, they need
reliable information about community needs
and the effects of actions intended to meet
those needs. The brief concludes with a discussion
of how public support for parks
increases as they expand their role, creating
a self-reinforcing process.

The examples cited and the policy implications
in these briefs derive largely from material
gathered by researchers at the Urban Institute
in the course of an evaluation of The Wallace
Foundation’s Urban Parks Initiative, a wideranging
effort to determine how to improve
the quality of urban parks, particularly in lowincome
neighborhoods, and to broaden urban
leaders’ understanding of the importance of
parks to the health and vitality of cities.

The Traditional View

The traditional view of parks and recreation
departmentsâ€"that they provide open spaces
and operate recreational facilities and programsâ€"
is still widely embraced by community
members.1 Parks are valued even by
those who do not use them. For example, one
study found that three-quarters of the respondents
who said that they did not themselves
use parks nonetheless reported receiving benefits
from them, with many of those benefits
tied to opportunities for children (Godbey,
Graefe, and James 1992).

Parks’ value to neighborhood quality is further
confirmed by studies that find a
statistically significant link between property
values and proximity to green space, including
neighborhood parks and urban forested
areas.2 One study found that the value of
properties near Pennypack Park in Philadelphia
increased from about $1,000 per acre at
2,500 feet from the park to $11,500 per acre
at 40 feet from the park (Hammer, Coughlin,
and Horn 1974). Another found that the price
of residential propertyâ€"based on data from
three neighborhoods in Boulder, Coloradoâ€"
decreased by $4.20 for every foot farther
away from the greenbelt (Correll, Lillydahl,
and Singell 1978).

This connection between urban parks and
neighborhood quality is receiving renewed
attention from community developers as
they strive to make their neighborhoods
more attractive to low-income and, increasingly,
middle-income residents. A recent
survey for Community Development Corporations
(CDCs)â€"which were once focused
largely on housing and commercial development
activitiesâ€"reveals that about 20 percent
of CDCs now invest in open-space
programs, and that this activity area is undergoing
the most rapid expansion. This finding
should be no surprise. CDCs respond to their
communities, and the communities’ priority
is often more green space.

Well designed urban parks do spur economic development where the context allows.  At the shipyards, you don't have much opportunity unless you're looking to relocate Maxwell House, which would be a bad idea imo.

University of Washington:

QuotePublic Value of Nature: Economics
of Urban Trees, Parks and Open
Space
Kathleen L. Wolf
University of Washington,
College of Forest Resources

Hedonic Pricing
A local public good can have an economic
ripple effect on nearby properties and commerce.
The concept of hedonic or amenity pricing
acknowledges that both property values and
people’s spending behaviors can be affected by
the presence of parks and green spaces.
Measurement of the effect of parks and open
space on adjacent property values has become an
accepted value measurement. Numerous studies
have shown that appraised property values of
homes that are adjacent to parks and open spaces
are typically about 8 percent to 20 percent more
than comparable properties elsewhere (Crompton,
2000). These values are capitalized when
property taxes are assessed or when taxes are paid
on a property sale.
Hedonic valuation can also be applied to
commercial and retail situations. Wolf (2003)
investigated the role of trees on shoppers’
behavior in retail business districts using
contingent valuation method, finding that people
claim they are willing-to-pay about 10 percent
more for products in a shopping area with trees,
as compared to a comparable district without
trees. Another study found that rental rates of
commercial office properties were about 7
percent higher on sites having a quality
landscape, including trees (Laverne & Winson-
Geideman, 2003). While nearby parks have not
been factored into the consumer response studies,
it is possible that the observed ripple effect on
residential properties may also apply to retail and
commercial sites.

http://www.naturewithin.info/Policy/EDRA_Value.pdf

Quote from: stephendare on August 11, 2010, 10:37:43 PM
Im aware of the academic claims.

But they are based on a shell game premise.

Aye, Stephen, changing the rules in the middle of the game, are we not?  You asked for support.  I produce just a sample of the endless studies posted from a Google search supporting my point.  And, now you say they are all an academic shell game.  You are lumping in the American Planning Association which consists of working planning professionals, not mere university academics.  Tell Lake what you think of his professional association!  ;D

Once again, you are introducing yourself as an expert on all subjects not to be challenged.  Putting yourself above those who have made a career extensively studying the subject.  Sorry, Stephen.  You are bright, but not so much so that you can nonchalantly dismiss every pronouncement from whatever source that undermines your position.  Time to adopt another strategy in making your points.

One case study example of several cited in this 6 page report.  See link at end for full report.

QuoteFor years a two-acre parcel in the midst of Boston’s
financial district was occupied by an unsightly, 500,000-
square-foot concrete parking garage. But in the early 1980s, atthe urging of surrounding businesses, the city joined a unique public-private partnership to demolish the structure and create
a privately funded underground garage covered by a graceful
park.

Today, the Park at Post OΣce Square features a
spreading lawn, polished granite walls, teak benches, a 143-
foot formal garden, a walk-through sculpture fountain, and a
café. Each day as many as 2,000 people stream up the escalators
from the garage to jobs in the surrounding high-rises.
“Post OΣce Square Park has changed Boston forever,”
wrote Boston Globe architecture critic Robert Campbell. “The
business district used to be an unfathomable maze of street
and building without a center. The park provides that center,
and all around it, as if by magic or magnetism, the whole
downtown suddenly seems gathered in an orderly array. It’s
as if the buildings were pulling up to the park like campers
around a bonfire.”

This rare open space in Boston’s crowded financial district
has boosted the value of surrounding properties while providing
an elegant green focus to a crowded commercial area. The
city receives $1 million a year for its ownership interest in the
garage, and $1 million in annual taxes. After the construction
debt is paid, ownership of the garage and park will revert to
the city.

“The garage that formerly filled that block was really a
negative,” says architect and city planner Alex Garvin, who
has written extensively on the role of open space in urban
economies. “It simply wasn’t attractive for a business to be
located opposite a multistory parking structure.” But with
the parking relocated below ground and the park created on
top, all that changed, particularly given that the park is not
just decorative space but has become a popular gathering
spot. “There’s a café there,” Garvin says. “You can sit in the
park. It has become an attractive place where people want to
be. And now that people want to be in the park, businesses
want to be across the street from it and the value of that
property goes up.”

http://www.tpl.org/content_documents/Chap3.pdf

Quote from: stephendare on August 11, 2010, 10:53:55 PM
STJR.  You asked me if I had heard of the APA.  The question was a little insulting.

Stephen, I never asked you this question.  You are imagining things.

QuoteAnd I demonstrated to you the fallacy of the argument, which I have had to demonstrate a number of times, in a number of settings, and in a couple of different cities.

Its odd that you find it strange that while posting on an urban planning and policy website that one of the founders of the website might have some background in the subject.  I would think that it would be kind of implied by the simple fact that you are on an urban planning site.....i dunno.

You gave a HYPOTHETICAL example in which you made up all the assumptions/facts.  No support that the real world actually works this way, especially in an URBAN environment which is what I am referring to and which has a whole different context than a virgin hundred acres on a rural/suburban tract.

QuoteI do not have a position, nor am I defending one.  You stated a very oft repeated meme, and I asked you to provide some evidence for it.

You do have at least one position that is apparent:  You don't support using the Shipyards as a public park.  Looks like you prefer some form of private development instead.  Attacking my position is a form of defending yours.

QuoteInstead you started pulling essays from land planning texts, without critically examining the information that you were posting.

I have pointed out to you the problems behind that source of data, and in the process answered your insulting question about my familiarity with the subject material.

Now you would like to undermine my points, not by answering the factual basis of them, but by trying to present me as a 'know it all'.

Stephen, I have cited studies which are footnoted and include specific facts and examples.  You have only provided a hypothetical calculation and no "non-Stephen" factual information.  The only insult here is the one from you to me but that's OK, I am used to it by now.  And, I don't have to present you as a "know it all" because you do such a great job of presenting yourself.  ;)

QuoteThis is usually an admission of defeat.

So, unless you have some further evidence to produce, I consider the matter settled, and will attempt to overlook your peevish attitude.

Take your own medicine.

Let's keep this one on topic guys. Stjr, I don't discount the fact that parks can spur development.  However, we already have a waterfront park right next door and it has not stimulated anything.  Why not work with that and expand by turning the stadium's surface lots into active green space?  This method gives you more open space, waterfront access and opportunity to strengthen your tax base by bringing a mix of uses to the Shipyards site (which could still have a riverwalk, pier and integrated public spaces, btw).

^Lake, all I ever wanted to do was to offer a rationale for using the Shipyards as a public park, one of the choices on the survey.  All discussion after that was "beyond my control".  :D

The difference with Metro Park to me is that it is currently more disconnected to the fabric of downtown proper.  Also, I don't see the harm in having the full Metro Park/Shipyard's stretch as one park.  It sure remains far behind rivaling major parks in other cities so I am not concerned about overdoing a good thing.  That's just my OPINION, not a declaration of FACT.  Listening, Stephen?

By the way, I am not adverse to a hybrid solution in which a park incorporates a permanent "street fair" of some sort.

QuoteThe clear implication is that I might need to have the APA explained for me.  Considering we have been twice recognized by organs of the APA, it seems a bit ironic.

Let's clear this up, now, Stephen.  The explanation wasn't for your benefit, its was for the benefit of MJ readers at large.   You definitely are thinking out of the box.  ;) You may be a founder of MJ (thank you very much!), but it is now in the public domain and the audience, as you regularly tout, is far wider than just yourself.  I am mindful  of that when composing my posts.

QuoteI recently discovered from Ock that many of the US municipal parks after the development of streetcars were linear parks that mirrored the routes, and that this was one of the ways that parkland was used to give value to the adjacent residential development.

Run a street car line down Bay Street to the Arena/Stadium/Metro Park area and make us all happy.

Shipyards

First I hope that the Promised Public Pier is saved with an amendment to 2010-604 that is pending legislation and is in two committees. RCD, Finance, Final vote could be Aug.24

I picked Open space right now because in my opinion the administration is focusing on the Entertainment component of our new 2005-1283.

So with Entertainment being the focus use the open space for competitions.
Jacksonville's Waterfront Jocks.

Have competitions and the winners can be posted every week. Come and compete when you can make it. Different catagories.

1. Longest frisbee throw.
2. Have a spin on the Punt, Pass and Kick.
3. Longest Field goal.
4. Weightlifting

You get the idea. Think small and grow. There is an opportunity for someone who wants a job to run this. As you take down the fences redirect them so they can be used to create boundries for the various catagories. Some events can use the same space. For example the frisbie throw can be at the same space for the football throw. Schedule times.

Create activity immediately. Fred Kent the power of 10

Open the activities for grade school, high school college division.
Age catagories. Men divisions/ Women divisions.

People will come back and defend their titles.
Run this by Downtown Vision.
Check the winners and current records on Metrojacksonville.com

 

Interesting that many of you chose the Convention center mixture. Mullaney/Haskell has talked/written about that.

Park Space? By a coffee plant, jail and sherrifs office?

I think the best place to make a GRAND city park would be expanding in RIVERSIDE. Cummer already there, RAM. The original plan was to extend RP to the River. Keep the Schools and entice the offices (in time) to 200 Riverside or Brooklyn complex

Quote from: rjp2008 on August 12, 2010, 09:45:35 AM
Interesting that many of you chose the Convention center mixture. Mullaney/Haskell has talked/written about that.

Park Space? By a coffee plant, jail and sherrifs office?

I think the best place to make a GRAND city park would be expanding in RIVERSIDE. Cummer already there, RAM. The original plan was to extend RP to the River. Keep the Schools and entice the offices (in time) to 200 Riverside or Brooklyn complex

I say this over and over about our city and its "planners / developers"... Take a look at other large Southern cities! Charleston, SC is a PERFECT example of waterfront parks done right! In fact check out "Waterfront Park" in Charleston... absolutely GORGEOUS... they have several large fountains right on the water, where children play and couples walk along the tree covered sidewalks. They even have a decent sized pier going out into the water with covered sections.

I found some really nice pictures of it but they are way to big to post... just search Google Maps for "Waterfront Park"

Just search for our Elements of Urbanism: Charleston articles.  You'll find a lot of park images in them.

My $.02... I'm with you Lake.  Not sure I like the choices presented here.  Not in favor of the Hotel/convention center/retail option.  Too far out of the core for my tastes.  A Convention center located there would be adjacent to... nothing.  A redesigned Metro Park without fences and better access fulfills the idea of having a park in the area on the water front.  I believe I would be partial to residential... apartment/condo development with the riverwalk extended to Metro Park...

What is going to happen to the abandoned condo development?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 12, 2010, 10:39:12 AM
What is going to happen to the abandoned condo development?

I've also wondered about this! And I totally agree, I don't think the shipyard the right place for a new convention center.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 11, 2010, 09:04:07 PM
I picked other.  DT needs organic uses that stimulate long term economic growth. So at this point, i'm going to go with a  working waterfront filled with maritime oriented uses and public space.  By maritime, I don't mean a container port but but maybe a mix of uses like a fisherman's wharf, seafood restaurants, marinas, small boat repair, marine science school, etc.

Ok, I've been curious since you brought it up a few weeks ago.

A few questions.... who would invest in these type of projects?  There really isn't a pentup demand for waterfront dining in Jax.  RCBC gets a sweet deal, CPC got a great deal at the Landing, there is another open spot at the Landing(which hopefully can be filled with a pretty cool tenant soon).  The shipyards site will be expensive to aquire and develop.  Much more expensive than the typical restaurantour or fisherman could afford to setup shop at.
There is indeed a burgeoning ship building/repair industry in my neighborhood now and that is pretty much a legacy type industry.  Not much demand for people my age looking to start up small vessel repair businesses along expensive premium property.

How is this idea(which I have to say has piqued my curiosity) more economically viable(read not HEAVILY subsidized by the city) than say something like this:


http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-may-encore-tampa-a-lesson-for-urban-jacksonville

This is a good topic :)

A shipping container flea market would easily attract people wanting to both buy and sell.

I'd go for public/private mixed use, maybe a Shands/UF treatment center; something that will bring life to the area... and money, between the physicians and patients.  I'm not referring to an ER/hospital, but proton therapy, cancer treatment.

Or a set of upscale apartments that could be cost effectively converted to condo's if the market had demand for it down the road. 

Definitely something private sector that's going to generate tax revenue.  I don't agree with a non tax revenue producing park, we're already broke; that cost's money to create, upkeep, and would be another bum beacon.  A complex that mirrored the Strand and Peninsula on the Northbank would be cool, not sure about economic feasibility however. 

Final idea, some type of Academic campus would be absolutely beautiful. 

Field, i've been in Kansas City and St. Louis for the last week.  My internet accessibility is limited to my phone.  I'm eating in a downtown dive and will be heading to the airport in a couple of hours. So i'll give you a detailed response when I get back to Jax later tonight.

I chose other.  I would like to see the property sold (except what's needed for Riverwalk and streetside ROW for streetcar, bikes and pedestrians).  Let the new property owners use it as they wish.

Perhaps the city should create or restore (don't know if they ever existed) extensions of Marsh and Palmetto streets from Bay St to the Riverwalk extension to improve public access and divide the property.

(http://weburbanist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/5-pier-57-shipping-container-mall.jpg)

I chose other.  I would rather see this get developed with a minimal area set aside for public space, other than the piers.  I think everything that goes in here should address the street with retail/restaurants/bars, but no park space.  There is plenty of underutilized public space around there already.  When private development stretches that far east, the public space will be more of an asset.

I think the JEA site is better for creating public space.  The block closest to the water could be a great public park, with fountains, an amphitheatre, and a great lawn.  A well designed street with bike lanes and wide sidewalks could be next.  Back from that would be mid-rise (5-7 story) residential with cafes and bars at street level and patios.  Behind that would be 14-20 story office or apartments.

Quote from: rjp2008 on August 12, 2010, 12:26:52 PM
(http://weburbanist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/5-pier-57-shipping-container-mall.jpg)

Hell yes! Not sure where the $ would come from but that's awesome!

We can make a smaller scale version. With containers it would be as cheap. Do it like RAM. Rent out 20 or more containers and start bringing in revenue. Revenue pays for expanding into a larger multi-level container mall/residence.

Set five of these suckers up on the Pier at night for an instant PARTY.

(http://www.isbu-info.org/boxman_container-cafe_02.jpg)

Choices are a little too simplified.  Other: Public park/entertainment park not unlike Chicago's Grant/Millenium Parks, with a hotel, maybe some condos on one end.  If the sports district had more stuff going on, that end could be towards the sports district, though at this point it would have to be closer to Berkman/Bay.  The hotel and possible condos would clearly have commercial space at the bottom.  The hotel could have a really cool outdoor lounge overlooking the river and park, and/or a club that had an outdoor component doing the same thing.  People could leave the hotel/bar/club to go to the park or vice versa come in from the park.  I envision a more hip hotel like a W.

The bad thing is that no hotel is going up anywhere in the metro for the near to medium future and definitely not downtown.  The hotel market has bottomed out (some say) in the past 2 months, but it could drop some more and Jacksonville is way overbuilt right now.  I am sure in a different environment and different economy, any developer would love to put higher density on that site and incorporate it with a park, but it ain't happening for a long while.

Lastly, I think the current courthouse site/parking lot is a better place to put a convention center since the land is already essentially owned by the city and there is a 966 room hotel next door already in place.  Our convention center does not need to be large.  I agree with Stephen on this one; the convention business has deteriorated overall across the country and if and when it picks back up Jacksonville is not going to be able to compete with our immediate neighbor down south, Chicago, Las Vegas, San Diego, Boston, NYC, Atlanta, or virtually any other city that has a really large and elaborate space.  We just need a few hundred thousand square feet in a cool riverfront building, like Vancouver's new convention center expansion.  Whatever's built will need to make a statement and will need to be green, either Energy Star or LEED, preferably the latter.

Quote from: fieldafm on August 12, 2010, 11:11:07 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 11, 2010, 09:04:07 PM
I picked other.  DT needs organic uses that stimulate long term economic growth. So at this point, i'm going to go with a  working waterfront filled with maritime oriented uses and public space.  By maritime, I don't mean a container port but but maybe a mix of uses like a fisherman's wharf, seafood restaurants, marinas, small boat repair, marine science school, etc.

Ok, I've been curious since you brought it up a few weeks ago.

A few questions.... who would invest in these type of projects?  There really isn't a pentup demand for waterfront dining in Jax.  RCBC gets a sweet deal, CPC got a great deal at the Landing, there is another open spot at the Landing(which hopefully can be filled with a pretty cool tenant soon).  The shipyards site will be expensive to aquire and develop.  Much more expensive than the typical restaurantour or fisherman could afford to setup shop at.
There is indeed a burgeoning ship building/repair industry in my neighborhood now and that is pretty much a legacy type industry.  Not much demand for people my age looking to start up small vessel repair businesses along expensive premium property.

fieldafm, I didn't forget about you, I just had to settle in after getting back in to town to provide you with a detailed answer.

Shipyards site
(http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/9162/picture003copy.jpg)



My "Other" revolves around filling this 44-acre site and its multiple piers with a diverse range of marine-based activities, both public and private.  Some of the random uses listed below alone won't amount to anything but combined they could create a very unique organically grown urban atmosphere.  Thinking "water-based", here are some potential uses that could be combined on this site because they don't take up a lot of land and the fact that there are a number of piers still in place.

1. Public Pier
(http://www.waterviewhome.net/communities/shipydpier3426.jpg)
This one is simple.  There's no reason the pier adjacent to Berkman Plaza should not become a public pier.  It's long an wide enough to accomodate green space, containers if you want them, shelters and several other pedestrian friendly amenities.


2. Marine Biotechnology, Research & Education  
(http://www.umbi.umd.edu/comb/about/images/columbus3center.jpg)
An example would be the Center of Marine Biotechnology in Baltimore's Inner Harbor (it's actually right next door to Hard Rock Cafe)

QuoteIt comprises four centers:

Center for Advanced Research in Biotechnology (CARB)
Center for Biosystems Research (CBR)
Center of Marine Biotechnology (COMB)
Medical Biotechnology Center (MBC)
UMBI Central Administration is currently located in the Columbus Center in the Inner Harbor, Baltimore, Maryland. The Columbus Center's Hall of Exploration was used at the home for a short-lived marine biotechnology museum from May through December 1997.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Maryland_Biotechnology_Institute


3. Full service boat yard  
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/947241879_v2jUU-M.jpg)
Do we have a true full service boatyard in DT Jax?  One that features a marina, boat sales, service, rentals, maintenance, repair, dry and wet storage.  I know that there were complaints about them disappearing due to big time developers snapping them up for waterfront condos a few years back.  These things don't have to take up a lot of land and could be centered around on of the existing piers.


4. Fisherman's Wharf
(http://www.holbrookcommunityfoundation.org/images/rebuild/rebuild026.png)
Considering their length and width, this activity could easily take place on one of the existing four piers.  With the longest pier being a public pier not to far away, opportunities of fisherman selling their fresh catch to the public become a possibility.  By sticking these uses adjacent to each other, organically you make a home grown seafood market feasible.
(http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/11/30/mn_crab_87874.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/792943998_wG3TN-M.jpg)
Here is an article from a similar idea being looked at in downtown St. Petersburg.  I don't know the economic numbers for commercial fishing in Jacksonville but I wonder could something small scale work at the Shipyards?

QuoteSeattle, San Francisco and St. Petersburg?
St. Petersburg Times (FL) - Sunday, August 13, 2006
Author: AARON SHAROCKMAN AND STEPHEN NOHL

Desperate for space to unload their catch, commercial fisherman want the city to make the Port of St. Petersburg into a thriving fisherman's wharf .

The open-air seafood market - like ones already in Seattle, San Francisco and other major coastal cities - would draw curious tourists and give new downtown residents another destination along St. Petersburg's sprawling waterfront, the fishermen say.

The fisherman say the public wharf also could reinvigorate Florida's smallest port, which has lost $1.2-million since October 2003. It stands to lose an additional $748,000 next year, according to the city.

But city leaders aren't sure what they want to do on the waterfront.

The area already serves as a base of operations for the Coast Guard and several marine research institutions, and the city has long wished the port would become a cruise destination.

Presented recently with the idea of adding a fish market, Mayor Rick Baker was reluctant to commit to any specific future.

For local fishermen, however, St. Petersburg may be their last great hope.

"We are not asking for a free lunch," said Will Ward, a St. Petersburg resident and third-generation fisherman who owns Captain's Finest Seafood in Tampa. "We are asking for something that will provide revenue.

"We could put 100 boats down there tomorrow."

Nowhere else to go

Commercial fishing is a $100-million industry in Pinellas County, Ward estimates. But the local industry is in risk of dying because there is nowhere left for commercial fishermen to dock.

In the past seven years, Pinellas County has lost three of its four largest fish houses to development. The last remaining one, Madeira Beach Seafood, sits on leased land that is for sale.

A handful of small fish houses operate in Tarpon Springs, Madeira Beach and Redington Shores, but their slips can hold only a few dozen boats.

Ward and Bobby Spaeth, who owns Madeira Beach Seafood, are searching for new locations to develop, but coastal land is too expensive.

That's why both have turned to St. Petersburg, a city that still owns much of its waterfront.

Though the two men are working independently, their ideas for the port are similar.

Both want to turn the area into a working waterfront for commercial fisherman.

They believe the spectacle of huge fish being unloaded, hundreds of pounds at a time, is enough to create a tourist attraction.

Plus, visitors could purchase fresh fish right on the waterfront. Where grouper would cost $16 a pound at a grocery store, Ward said it could sell for $10 a pound directly from the fishermen.

There could be flowers and produce and antiques for sale nearby, even a seafood restaurant, Ward and Spaeth say.

"This could be an East Coast San Francisco if they could do it right," said Martin Fisher, a commercial fisherman who sells his catch at St. Petersburg's Saturday market.

"It's just not a place for us to unload our fish," added Ward. "It becomes a BayWalk Two."

Besides dock space, the fishermen would need a place to refuel and huge ice machines to keep their catch fresh, Ward and Spaeth said. They're unsure how much the changes would cost, or who would pay for them.

For it to happen, though, city officials might have to finally abandon one of their longest-held hopes, that St. Petersburg can become a destination for cruise ships.

'Call' unanswered

St. Petersburg leaders have hoped to make their city a port of call for the cruise industry since at least 1986. But cruise ships, including the troubled Ocean Jewel gambling casino, have failed to stick here.

City officials, however, continue to hold some hope.

The city is waiting on a Army Corps of Engineers report to see if a channel could be dug to accommodate hulking, modern cruise liners. That report, due later this year, will likely determine the city's next step.

In the meantime, a series of expansions are being considered along the 1,200-foot-long port wall, including 25,000 additional square feet of retail space and a marine educational component called Port Discovery. That plan, fishermen say, could adapt well into a Fisherman's Wharf -type concept.

Could it work here?

City officials like the thought of a working waterfront, though they differ on where it might work best.

Rick Mussett, the city development administrator, said conceivably a wharf could be constructed into the approach to the city's Pier, which is scheduled to be rebuilt in the coming years.

And Mayor Rick Baker said there may be possibilities at the south end of Bayboro Harbor, opposite the port facilities.

"Over the past few years, with the real estate industry being as hot as it is, lots of folks said to change the zoning to allow residential," Baker said of the area around the harbor. "But I've resisted that. Having a marine area is a good thing."

Baker said he would meet with the fishermen to discuss the concept.

City Council member Jamie Bennett said he's interested in the fish house concept at the port, where he said something needs to be done.

"I like the idea of a fisherman's wharf ," said Bennett, who offered to work with the fishing industry on a proposal. "What we have down there isn't working. It's high time to try something else."

5. Minor ship or barge repair and building?  
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/792945159_c5nqs-M.jpg)

The addition of a marine-based industrial use may be the one that many may not agree with but here goes.  I wonder if there is opportunity to lure one of the smaller operations (Green Cove Springs, Palatka, etc.) that are south of us that happen to be limited in growth due to bridge heights and rising fuel costs?  While the industry might not be a booming one, its well paying and as long as we have a port, the navy and water, it disappearing anytime soon.  In fact, the North Florida Shipyards in Commodore's Point seems to be doing well enough to expand.  

QuoteThe land underneath the ramps to the Hart Bridge at Commodore Point may not be empty much longer. North Florida Shipyards , a 42-year-old Jacksonville ship repair and conversion company with operations at Commodore Point and Mayport, has big plans for the space.

If you've driven over the Mathews or Hart bridges, you've likely spotted ships anchored at the company's 3,600 feet of bulkhead wharf where they are undergoing repairs. Now, with the addition of a mobile vessel hoist, the company plans to expand, lifting vessels out of the river and dry-docking them in the shadows of the bridge's ramps.

The $7.6 million project will upgrade North Florida Shipyards ' downtown facilities, nearly doubling the company's employee base over the next four years, adding 246 employees to its current 320.

August is the target date for the installation of the hoist, as well as a new basin that will allow for the lifting and launching of ships weighing up to 600 metric tons on the St. Johns River.

Planning for ship repairs is an arduous task.

"We operate in the blind," says Robert Wilson, the company's vice president and CFO. "We never know what we are getting into until you get a ship up and out of the water."

In the world of marine repair, owners don't make maintenance decisions - ship classification services, such as the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS), do. Once a ship is out of the water, ABS surveys it, gauging it against industry rules and specifications. It then designates what repairs need to be performed. Ship owners have no choice - don't comply and the vessel is no longer insurable.

That can make it difficult to plan ahead. North Florida 's dry dock, a solid-concrete pontoon built by the Navy during World War II, accommodates two ships. If one needs lengthy repairs, both are held up as it's not a simple process to re-float the second ship.

The new vessel hoist will solve that problem, allowing the company to dry-dock vessels on the 25-acre site and serve more customers. How many it can dry-dock depends on the size of the vessels.

Wilson says the company's workforce is aging, and he faces challenges with hiring experienced workers. As a result, he's exploring options, such as creating an apprenticeship program.

"There's really no training program to bring these types of employees to us," he said. "I'm looking for individuals with aptitude and attitude. If you have those, I can give you a career."

So, North Florida Shipyards will employ 566 high salary workers on a 25-acre site when their lift is completed?  That's a lot more people than many of the white collar bigwigs we're worried about leaving the office towers.  Plus it's organic. While you can pick up and move an office because you get better lease rates in the Southside, you can't pick up and move a marina, a wharf, build a new pier or marine education facility on the drop of a dime.

Quote from: fieldafm on August 12, 2010, 11:11:07 AM
How is this idea(which I have to say has piqued my curiosity) more economically viable(read not HEAVILY subsidized by the city) than say something like this:


http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-may-encore-tampa-a-lesson-for-urban-jacksonville

This is a good topic :)

I believe you have to plan specific sites based on local context and opportunity.  The Encore lesson for Jacksonville is the urban layout and footprint, not the specific uses.  Instead of trying to force affordable housing on waterfront property (not economically viable without heavy public subsidies), why not implement an urban plan that plays to the strengths of the site's physical and natural assets?  After thinking about this long and hard, my mind tells me that marine-based activity makes the most sense.  It also tells me with the jail and Maxwell House being next door, even some limited industrial use may be feasible, as long as we find a link between that use creating well paying jobs and stimulating the DT atmosphere.

Anyway, at this point, the list above is just a random assortment of organic water-based economic generating uses that could be easily combined with public space on a 44-acre linear waterfront site with four very long piers and nearly a mile of waterfront frontage.  While not all of these uses may be considered sexy and cutting edge for the modern day yuppy, combined they could create quite an economic scene with round the clock activity. A scene that won't pick up and move anytime soon, no matter what happens in the Southside, Clay or St. Johns Counties.  Plus, since most of these uses don't involve massive buildings, cost to implement should be cheaper and you would still have land available for a mix of additional complementing uses such as support retail, dining or housing.  

All things considered, we can enhance and add park space in other areas, including Metropark and the stadium's surface lots right next door.  We should place a convention center right next to the Hyatt Hotel and Bay Street district once the courthouse abandons that property.  We should forget about luxury housing because that won't be happening anytime soon and it won't make downtown anymore vibrant than the Peninsula, the Strand and San Marco Place do for the Southbank.  On the other hand, we have a limited supply of space, land and opportunity where a multitude of marine-based activities (public and private) can take place in close proximity to each other.

So to directly answer your questions...

Who would invest in these types of projects?

Since they are public and private, the city would have to invest in the creation of a public pier and riverwalk.  The city would probably have to work with local colleges to create some sort of marine based or logistical training center or program.  A fisherman's wharf would be created by making a pier accessible to local fishermen to moor their vessels and unload their catch.  A marine based industry could be lured by the JEDC like they do for any other company looking to relocate, expand or create jobs.

There isn't demand for waterfront dining in Jax.

You create demand by turning the site into a place where several people visit on a regular basis for a variety of uses.  You successfully pull that off and you'll get someone there who will attempt to make money off of those potential hungry pier visitors, industrial employees, students, fishermen and leisure boaters.

The shipyards site will be expensive to aquire and develop.  Much more expensive than the typical restaurantour or fisherman could afford to setup shop at.

We're going to acquire it through foreclosure.  The piers are already in place, so we don't have to build those.  To get started we could open two piers to the public and fisherman and proceed from there.

Not much demand for people my age looking to start up small vessel repair businesses along expensive premium property.

North Florida Shipyards proves that some existing companies are still in expansion mode.  Similar marine based industries in Green Cove Springs and Palatka also exist.  We could possible put together some plan to lure them and the jobs they create to a highly visible site that will save them on fuel costs, help with worker recruitment and allow for company growth.

Unless City Hall has a hidden buyer for the Ship Yards property, sounds good to me! With the refusal of Mr Gaffney (Mr Redman says yes but has done nothing to this date concerning the Public Pier)to present any amendment to ensure the Pier returns to the public, that part should be seperate! If that could get off the ground, rail might become a viable alternative for both in and out! CSX could run a spur line in and out and lease time slots for local traffic...............lots of possiblities here! Limited to our pocket books and imagination!

(http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/53321746.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921F7C3FC3F69D929FDAD63ED12623A774A409112CFB54E905EACE57E21D920EE4FF06BF04B24B4128C)

Following up on my post yesterday, I've been trying to dig for information regarding the commercial fishing industry here.  I'm not in the fishing industry, so all of this stuff is a learning experience for me.  However, if our river is full of white shrimp, blue crabs and catfish, I wonder what would be the negatives in allowing local fishermen the opportunity to moor and unload their vessels on one of the piers at the Shipyards?  It would seem like combining this with a public pier nearby would open up opportunities for the public to buy fresh local seafood right at the Shipyards.

QuoteShrimpers fret contest for freshwater will drain industry

Commercial trawlers against plan to siphon off St. Johns River water

DAVID HUNT

Mayport's commercial shrimpers fear a plan to pump freshwater from the St. Johns River could send their harvest swimming south.

The migration would pack a crippling blow to a $9.8 million local industry and long-standing tradition already dwindling in numbers on the St. Johns River.

"We'd lose it all," said Janie Thomas, executive director of the Shrimp Producer's Association. "They might not be able to keep doing it and paying the bills without going on welfare. We're too proud for that."

Thomas is one of the latest protesters rallying against a plan to replenish a distressed Central Florida water supply with freshwater from the St. Johns River and a tributary, the Ocklawaha.

Groundwater alone is not expected to be enough to quench the Orlando region past 2013. The net effect of a potential 262 million-gallon daily river withdrawal would be a 4.9 percent reduction in freshwater flowing north through Jacksonville.

The river's level isn't expected to decrease though, because more south-flowing ocean water likely would fill the void. But that's where many in Jacksonville, from shrimpers to environmentalists and public officials, have begun to worry.

A primary concern for commercial shrimpers is how far south the saltwater will go, and how far shrimp will follow.

Scientists studying the plan for the St. Johns River Water Management District say modeling based on five years of data shows the freshwater withdrawal should not have a significant impact on the river's salinity or aquatic life.

Sonny Hall, a technical program manager for the water management district, said modeling based on five years of data suggests the average salinity level will rise by a small fraction.

"Granted, we'd feel better about this model if we had 20 to 30 years of data. We're working to get more," he said. "We don't feel there's a cause for alarm and we understand everyone's concerns."

Quinton White, a Jacksonville University biologist and the school's arts and sciences dean, said the water management district's study doesn't comfort him. He said drought alone this summer moved the seawater so far south in the St. Johns River that recreational fishers were catching shrimp in Palatka.

"We already saw this happen once naturally this summer. It's one of those things that the district is disputing as not a big deal," he said. "But we don't know that it's not a big deal. The question is what would be the long-term effects."

Thomas said commercial shrimpers, by law, can't trawl south of the Buckman Bridge.

Lee Schlesinger, a spokesman for the state Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, said commercial fishing zones can be a complicated issue - based on regulations developed over many years to prevent multi-species catches and ensure the species being harvested can regenerate.

For the same reasoning, Thomas said she thinks fighting for a larger shrimping zone would be pointless.

"These things have pretty much been set in stone," Schlesinger said. "They didn't come up because of one or two reasons. There were dozens of reasons."

A Times-Union analysis of state records shows Duval County shrimpers have caught an average of nearly 14 percent of the food and bait shrimp produced statewide this decade.

Statistics from 2006 and so far 2007 show an upward surge, though, with the 7.4 million pounds of shrimp brought ashore in Duval County accounting for nearly a quarter of the state's catch in that time frame.

However, the records show the average wholesale price for a pound of food shrimp - the lion's share of the catches - has dropped 37 cents, or about 15 percent, since 2000. Thomas said the costs of fuel and maintaining a shrimping vessel have continued to go up and the highly regulated business is difficult for potential shrimpers to break into.

Between Nassau and Duval counties, she said there are 48 commercial shrimping permits, but only about 20 of the shrimpers remain active.

Andrew Thompson, 69, of Mayport, has been shrimping since he was 14.

He said the freshwater withdrawal may accelerate the twilight years of his career.

"I probably could survive. My house is paid for and everything," he said. "Now, my son - he's a full-time shrimper and if he had to quit, he'd have to sell everything off and move out of Jacksonville."

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/111107/bus_216500875.shtml

QuoteThe blue crab industry is economically one of Florida’s most important fisheries. Florida produces over 10 million pounds of blue crabs each year. Colorful trap buoys dot Florida estuaries from Pensacola to Jacksonville. The economic value to the state exceeds $48 million annually. Florida's fisherman, local crab houses and coastal communities are the heart and soul of the industry.

http://www.fl-seafood.com/news/08-10-05.htm

QuoteWhite Shrimp
Where the oceans meets the lower St. Johns River is an estuary; in fact, it's Florida's largest at 2,777 square miles. White shrimp, such as this one, spawn offshore but use the river's lower basin as a nursery to mature. Commercial and sport shrimpers operate between Jacksonville and Palatka.

Blue Crab
The blue crab is a St. Johns inhabitant more commonly associated with oceans than rivers. During warmer months, blue crabs move up and down the river, reaching as far south as Lake George. They spawn in cooler months in the lower basin of the River, near the Atlantic Ocean.

http://www.theriverreturns.org/explore/profile/text/

QuoteFrom 2006 to 2007, crabbers reported to the Fish and Wildlife Conservation a 13.5 percent dip in Gulf Coast landings. The numbers for 2008 have not yet been recorded, but anecdotally, the agency expects another dip, McMillen-Jackson said.

The decline in local crabs has led many fishermen to drive miles out of their way to find the crabs, a signature dish for many local eateries.

Mark Davis, 46, who owns the Crab Hut, a wholesale and retail fish distribution store on Martin Luther King Jr. Drive, drives to the St. John's River near Jacksonville. He started doing so last month, when the crabs just couldn't be found in the Alafia River or in Clearwater, where he normally lays traps.

He pulled up all 100-plus traps and drove north.

"I was running 130 traps and getting 100 pounds of crabs, which is terrible. I said, 'I had enough of this.' "

In Jacksonville, he ran 240 traps and got 600 pounds. Big difference.

Longtime crabbers have experienced dips in the crab population before. In 2000 and 2001, a record drought in the area, the industry went through similar woes. About that time, Travis Johnson, owner of 40th Street Seafood, hooked up with distributors in Louisiana and started getting the blue crabs flown in from there.

He's doing that again now.

"We have local crabbers that are really, really having a rough time," Johnson said. "My two crabbers, I told them to take off for a couple of weeks until the crabs pick up."

For those crabbers who do travel, even if their bounty is bigger up north, it doesn't mean that their profit margin is any wider. The culprit: gas.

Davis, owner of the Crab Hut, drives two trucks hauling two boats up to Jacksonville, at a cost of $230 round trip. The gas to fuel the boats costs $175.

It's either pay up for the gas to travel or get no crabs at all.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/jul/03/031416/lack-blue-crabs-pinching-fishermens-pockets/c_1/

Lake, if shrimpers are concerned about fresh water withdrawals affecting the river's salinity, the next issue likely to arise will be the impact of the port's desired dredging of the river.  Like the shrimpers vs. JPA on the cruise terminal, I don't expect their interests to fare any better with the port's dredging plans.

If the shrimp head south, wouldn't DT be more closer for the industry to moor vessels than Mayport?  Nevertheless, the local fishing industry is a lot more than just shrimp and allowing commercial fishermen to moor at one of the piers shouldn't really be a complicated thing.  I would image just having as little as 10 boats docked and being unloaded there would do wonders for that space.

I was thinking the shrimp need fresh water as part of their life cycle. No fresh water nearby means less shrimp.  I think that's why the water withdrawals are an issue for shrimpers and why there would be concern over dredging that could make the river saltier as well. 

In a worst case scenario, I thought the fresh water just move further south.  If so, wouldn't that just move the harvesting area from north to south, meaning there would be potential for new areas for vessels to dock?  Anyway, I'm not talking about anything major.  I'm talking about a use that could be included with a mix of maritime and public space related uses on this 44-acre site.

Thank you Lake.  I want to speak intelligently on some of your ideas, but I've been at work since 730AM and I'm still here with no end in sight so it may not be the weekend until I can give some thoughts, as this is pretty much the schedule I expect to keep through Saturday.

I do see some specific challenges and some opportunities in your vision.

No problem.  Just remember the mixed-use vision I'm describing is using the site for organic marine-based purposes (both private and public).  By introducing "connectivity" and "clustering" complementing compact uses I believe natural synergy could be created.  

With this in mind, the things listed above are samples of marine-based uses that maybe could work on some level.  However, I'm sure with detailed thought, some may not and others not mentioned as of yet, may make better sense.

lake.........if the Orlando region has their way and they start siphoning water from the St Johns at their end, then the salinity level will rise at our end. Depending on the type of shrimp reflects what they need to reproduce! Deep water shrimp are one thing......shallow water shrimp are another! There are many types out there.............best shrimp I ever had overseas came from the Gulf of Mexico! Either way, Ship Yards has many potential possibilities! I just hope to hell that the Council does not have some back room deal that we don't know about!

Researching the history of the site after the shipyards closed, for years income was generated through the leasing of waterfront space to water-based companies.  Other than the fact that no one really wants industrial use down there anymore, that's still a viable option for the portions of the property even in this economy, if the city desired.

Anyway, I know there has been much focus on the idea of a fisherman's wharf and if it's realistic or not.  However, that's a very minor part of what I threw out on the table.  However, to go into more detail on that particular idea, I'm not talking about building any elaborate expensive structures.  I'm trying to describe something as simple as making one of the four existing piers available for the local commercial fishing industry to moor their vessels and unload their catch. 

By fishing industry I basically mean just about anything you can catch in our local waterways and sell.  So if it isn't shrimp, it could be blue crabs, catfish or whatever.  Anyway, I'm not talking about something as historic and large as San Franscisco's Fisherman's Wharf or a fake remake of one.  I'm talking about just making a pier available for the possibility.  If it fails, all you have is the same empty pier that exists today.  In the event that you attract a couple of vessels (maybe 5 to 10), you create a natural opportunity for the public (assuming there is a riverwalk and public pier adjacent) to potentially purchase fresh seafood directly from the fishermen unloading their catch.  If there is no direct sell, they still have the option to unload and deliver their catch to the various restaurants and markets all over this town.

Yesterday at RCD the legislation that will give the Shipyards back to the city and people of Jacksonville was voted out of committee 5-0 and now goes to the council. We will be getting the property in about 3 weeks. The real discussions as to what will happen now can begin.

Lake, I love the Working Waterfront component.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2010, 01:11:55 AM............ I thought the fresh water just move further south.  If so, wouldn't that just move the harvesting area from north to south, ..............

I don't remember the details but the majority of shrimping grounds are a mile off the beach not in the river. The river is limited to smaller trawls like the bait sellers.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2010, 12:58:20 AM
If the shrimp head south, wouldn't DT be more closer for the industry to moor vessels than Mayport?  Nevertheless, the local fishing industry is a lot more than just shrimp and allowing commercial fishermen to moor at one of the piers shouldn't really be a complicated thing.  I would image just having as little as 10 boats docked and being unloaded there would do wonders for that space.

Note commercial netting of shrimp was common on the river to points south however the practice has been banned for some time due to harmful effects to the river bottom.
We need to hear from the commercial fishing community as prospective users of the piers.The round trip from Mayport to Downtown is quite a run.$$$$

I was on the river at the piers this weekend and have pondered the property for many hours and days including many discussions with the general public while attending boat shows next door.

  **** The public always speaks glowingly of Downtown as to what could be ****
The vision for the Shipyards is largely one of primarily public ownership and use.

Costs likely prohibit my own vision of infill beteween piers,a meander shoreline creating Gilligan Island Cove and increased dry land.

I have wondered too about a public "Hand Launch" facility for kayaks,canoes.How neat would it be to paddle to Goat Island (next to Arlington Expressway bridge).On the other hand,this particular section of the River is often treacherous for small craft due to extreme tidal current and vessel traffic.

QuoteNote commercial netting of shrimp was common on the river to points south however the practice has been banned for some time due to harmful effects to the river bottom.
We need to hear from the commercial fishing community as prospective users of the piers.The round trip from Mayport to Downtown is quite a run.$$$$

Just a question.  There are a ton of crab traps between the Buckman and Fuller Warren Bridges.  Where are the vessels that empty these traps coming and going?  A part of me doubts they are all coming from Mayport.

Also follow the river and its tributaries closely on Google Earth.  There are commercial fishing boats docked all along the thing at various private docks and marinas miles from Mayport.

Commerical crap traps south of the Fuller Warren (the little balls floating on top of the water)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Jacksonville-Shipyards/Crab-traps/973003437_ywGUE-L.jpg)

An example of commercial vessels in marinas miles from Mayport
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Jacksonville-Shipyards/trout-river-marina/973003492_B4Rbu-L.jpg)

Green Cove Springs. This image captures what is floating in my mind to a degree.  Focusing on the four existing piers (not the dry land), why can't you have a riverwalk and open those piers up to various marine-based uses at the same time?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Jacksonville-Shipyards/GreenCoveSprings/973003465_DoyaX-L.jpg)





Shipyards in 1999 when previous owners were generating income leasing the piers to marine-basd companies, while planning for site redevelopment.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Jacksonville-Shipyards/Shipyards-1999/973013690_xAQvk-M.jpg)

Shipyards in 2010.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Jacksonville-Shipyards/Shipyards-2010/973013727_gbQAG-M.jpg)

Soon back in public ownership but no funds to make real expensive improvements anytime soon.  Property aside, assuming the far left pier is opened to the public, what you do with the remaining piers?

By the way, the Shipyards site has more than 4,900 linear feet of waterfront frontage.  In the short term, I guess the city could just plant grass or keep it fenced and generate no income.  Or perhaps it would not be a bad idea to do what the previous owners in the 1990s did to keep the bills paid.

Quotes from TU articles back in 1996.

QuoteShipyards developer threatens showdown
The Florida Times-Union - Tuesday, June 4, 1996
Author: Simon Barker-Benfield, Times-Union business writer


While Hanan is adamant about not returning the shipyard site to industrial use, he is generating cash flow by using part of the site as a shipping terminal while he searches for investors.

About half the property has been leased to Jacksonville International Terminals, also called Cuban Caribbean Shipping Inc., which runs cargo to the U.S. Navy base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Also renting space is Cross State Towing Co.

QuoteCuban Caribbean continues Guantanamo Bay shipments
The Florida Times-Union - Monday, February 12, 1996
Author: John Finotti, Times-Union business writer

Jacksonville 's Cuban Caribbean Shipping Inc. says it will continue carrying cargo to the U.S. Naval Station in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, for at least another year.

Cuban Caribbean outbid several other firms for the contract with the U.S. Navy Military Sealift Command. The agreement is for one year, followed by two six-month option periods. The total value of a two-year contract is $9 million.

The shipping service provides supplies and military equipment to the U.S. base.

Cuban Caribbean operates a container terminal at the former downtown Jacksonville Shipyards site. It uses tugs and barges to haul the containers to Guantanamo Bay.

Cuban Caribbean Shipping was founded in early 1992 and was first awarded the Guantanamo Bay contract in April 1992.

The company also owns Caribbean Cargo Shipping Inc., which operates shipping service to Haiti, and Jacksonville International Terminals Co., which provides terminal and stevedoring services.

QuoteCaribe moving to defunct shipyard
The Florida Times-Union - Saturday, March 29, 1997
Author: John Finotti, Times-Union business writer

While investors, developers and city officials ponder the long-term use of the defunct Jacksonville Shipyards property, small barge lines continue to find the downtown location irresistible as a low-cost seaport terminal.

On Tuesday, a barge that runs supplies between Jacksonville and the U.S. Naval Station at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, will begin using the former shipyards property to load and unload cargo.

The barge line, Caribe USA Inc ., is moving its Jacksonville terminal operations from the Jacksonville Port Authority's Blount Island terminal to the downtown facility because it's cheaper.

Caribe USA compared costs of using Blount Island, the former Jacksonville Shipyard site and the port of Fernandina Beach, and the shipyard was deemed the most cost-effective, said Ken Wear, Caribe's port manager in Jacksonville.

Caribe's barge will be docked for loading at the former shipyard facility every other Tuesday and Wednesday. The barges dock in Guantanamo Bay on alternating Tuesdays and Wednesdays.

The company has signed a six-month lease with the owner of the shipyard, Jacksonville Riverfront Development Ltd, Wear said.

Once an employer of a 1,000 shipyard workers, Jacksonville Shipyards went under in 1990. In 1994, the shipyards' parent, Fruehauf Trailer Corp., sold the property to Jacksonville Riverfront Development.

The development firm's plans to build restaurants, entertainment venues and retail shops on the site have been stymied by a lack of financing.

In the meantime, the company has been able to generate some cash flow by leasing out the pier and dock.

The shipyard property had been used as a shipping terminal by Cuban Caribbean Shipping Inc . until late last year.

Jacksonville-based Cuban Caribbean had the contract to carry cargo to the Navy base, but lost it because of poor performance to Caribe, said a spokesman for the Navy Military Sealift Command. The one-year shipping contract is expected to be put out for bid in September.

Separately, Cuban Caribbean is being sued by its lender for bank fraud and is under federal investigation for possible criminal wrongdoing.

In its suit, Cuban Caribbean 's lender, MTB Bank of New York, said the shipping company's principals, led by Atlanta businessman Boyd L. "Cotton" Hobbs, used a complex scheme involving fictitious companies and phony bills and invoices to cheat the bank out of more than $2 million.

Meanwhile, Caribe USA is looking at starting up barge service in the hotly competitive Jacksonville-to-San Juan, Puerto Rico, trade route.

Presently, Caribe sails to San Juan out of Mobile, Ala.

"We're going to try to expand our liner service into the Caribbean out of Jacksonville," Wear said.

He said the company would use the former shipyard site for the liner service if it's found to be feasible.

Could it be possible to lease out river frontage for a period of time and use that annual income to raise capital to pay for the development of public infrastructure at the site?

I had a conversation early this morning and expect to have one possibly Saturday about some of the ideas you suggested Lake.

However, one very important thing you have to remember... the previous two administrations are dead set against maritime uses coming back to this site.  Delaney even tried several times to purchase this property in order to turn it into a large public park.

In the meantime for anyone reading this thread, council members sure could use some emails in support of the public pier today  :) It takes just as much time to post in this thread than it does to email a councilperson about your thoughts on 2010-604 as it relates to the public pier.  :)

Quote from: fieldafm on August 17, 2010, 01:34:59 PM


  Delaney even tried several times to purchase this property in order to turn it into a large public park.

council members sure could use some emails in support of the public pier today  :) It takes just as much time to post in this thread than it does to email a councilperson about your thoughts on 2010-604 as it relates to the public pier.  :)

As for me and many others,large public use. The Pier doesn't garner much traction.
As for me,large public use.Period-no interest in just the Pier.Skip just the Pier.

Quote from: fieldafm on August 17, 2010, 01:34:59 PM
I had a conversation early this morning and expect to have one possibly Saturday about some of the ideas you suggested Lake.

However, one very important thing you have to remember... the previous two administrations are dead set against maritime uses coming back to this site.  Delaney even tried several times to purchase this property in order to turn it into a large public park.

I'm very well aware.  I'm just brainstorming.  However, sooner or later something will have to give.  Either we need to man up and raise taxes or find additional methods to generate income to pay for the things that will make our community a better place.

Quote from: north miami on August 17, 2010, 01:45:17 PM

Quote from: fieldafm on August 17, 2010, 01:34:59 PM


  Delaney even tried several times to purchase this property in order to turn it into a large public park.

council members sure could use some emails in support of the public pier today  :) It takes just as much time to post in this thread than it does to email a councilperson about your thoughts on 2010-604 as it relates to the public pier.  :)

As for me and many others,large public use. The Pier doesn't garner much traction.
As for me,large public use.Period-no interest in just the Pier.Skip just the Pier.

I respect your viewpoint, however....
I have a very rational and very real fear that if the pier is not set aside as seperate... it would be very easy for it to be completely wiped off the map of public use if a developer or other land owner came in with a deal.  The riverwalk extension is going to happen as this was originally required as part of the financing deal for the bulkhead rehabilitation, but from everything I've read in the previous agreements/land contracts there is nothing to stop the city from selling the 680' pier and effectively forever cutting off its use by the public.

I think there is much constructive conversation to be had about the ultimate use of the entire 44 acre property, and I do like some of your views NorthMiami(as an avid kayaker, I welcome any additional public launch points but I'd personally never try to kayak downtown nor within the shipping lanes at Commodore Point b/c of the current issues you mentioned).  No matter what happens ultimately with the property, it would be a HUGE mistake if at least the pier was not made available for public use.

That is the context of my urgency to act at the very least on this issue now.  The lessons learned from the now defunct Fuller Warren fishing pier should resonate soundly in our consciousness as a call to act now, lest the opportunity slip away forever.

I wonder what real benefit public access to only a pier would be.We could stroll out and wonder out loud about what could have been while gazing at likely bland retail, private basically boring buildings and view scape.


For those that ardently wish to see the Pier reserved in public domain I suggest refrain from reference to "Fishing" pier.The concept of "Fishing" element compromised the Fuller Warren pier proposal.

I still wonder if there has not been a back room deal allready made! The reason being, neither Gaffney nor Redman have come forth with an amendment reserving that part for the public! A lack of interest from the Council bodes not well to me!

I missed the voting on this, but have to say this...

If we want an "ideal" solution to this, which seems like most people agree is some mix of commercial development with public access, we have to look long term.  No offense to the proponents of the "cover costs for now by inviting industrial maritime companies to downtown" plan, but this would be a terrible step backwards IMO.

Here's a few reasons why, to my way of thinking:

1)  Something on the order of $30 million has been spent so far on environmental mitigation of the site, which operated for 100+ years as a commercial shipyard.  Included in this sunk cost is the price of basic-use infrastructure, like the new bulkheads that were put in along the length of the waterfront.  To re-introduce industrial operators to this property, such as Reynolds shipyards in Palatka or North Florida Shipyards at Commodore's Point, would be destroying the value of the land for anything EXCEPT further heavy industrial use, which seems to be totally counter to what majority of people in Jax want to see this turn into.  Shipyard work is dirty, damaging work.

2)  The crab tenders that work the pots around downtown, including the crab pot fields near the Hart & Matthews bridges, and off the shore of Riverside/Avondale, are small boats, not real trawlers like are in Mayport to do offshore shrimping.  Many of the crabbers can/do trailer their boats to take advantage of fishing in many different waterways around our area without being bound to only water transit between fields.  It all comes down to cost...the established logistical mini-system for the downtown crabbers probably wouldn't be able to easily bear the additional cost of overland transport from the Shipyards Pier to their buyers' warehouses.  The seafood they put ashore on the pier would have to be sold at the pier to be profitable, and the likelihood of a high-volume seafood market suddenly appearing in the heart of an abandoned brownfields site is not...very...high.   **would love to hear an actual crabbers take on this point though, to support/refute the basic economics of this part of the proposal**

3)  As for the TU articles from 96/97 that were referenced, talking about the barge lines that used to be at the site...that business is gone.  The barge line to Gitmo now runs out of Blount Island, which saves the operators upwards of $10,000 PER PORT CALL by reducing fuel, pilotage, and assist tug costs that were required for the trip all the way to downtown.  This line of thinking also brings into play the "back to industrial use" problems I referenced before.

For my unsolicited $.02, I say move the current chain link fence along Bay Street back to the water IMMEDIATELY.  Use the open space during Jaguar season as fields to play, tailgate, etc.  We need to re-introduce the are to the public first, to get a positive image of the place back in people's minds...get them to remember it "that big field where we grilled and tailgated and hung out by the water before the game" rather than "that failed development downtown, next to the abandoned highrise where the parking garage collapsed".  After that, still feel that private commercial development is that way to go.  The City doesn't have to own it to be involved in it, but sitting on the property until values rebound some seems a prudent move.  It's a classic "buy and hold" investment opportunity...COJ's carry cost on the property is very low, its all sunk costs already.

Bornnative your newbie post # 1 was a dandy! Welcome!!
Interesting insights.
I like the idea of moving the fence and introducing people to the site is excellent.

Great post, Bornnative and welcome to the site. Any suggestions for what to do with the existing piers in the short and long term?

Why do anything at all? Since the City is such dire financial straits, why not just hold on to it, fence all of it off and use the 680' as a Public Pier? I am just concerned there is something going on with the whole thing and we won't find out untill it is too late! Use the land as a "Tail Gate Area" until we can afford to really do something to the whole stretch!

It will probably be over a decade before commercial development makes any sense at the site.  The economy won't be really improving anytime soon, downtown is declining and we've been trying to get commercial development there for at least 15 years already with no luck in the best of boomtimes.  While I agree with the idea that a mix of uses integrated with public space would be best, I see no reason to limiting ourselves to just opening the site for tailgating (that's something like 10 out of 365 days of the year).  

Personally, I'd like to see the city move forward with developing a plan for the property, carving out whatever public space it desires, using those piers for something and moving forward with the riverwalk connection.  At this point, the significant work has already been done.  Imo, if it takes shifting the rest of the Metro Park money over to complete the pier and connect the riverwalk to the sports district, so be it.

Lake, I am sticking with 100% public use.  For some thoughts on park development at potentially very low costs, see the new thread I just started on the subject at: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,9511.msg171471/topicseen.html#new

No problem, as you know I'm not against public use.  However, I do believe an urban public space is much better when it's integrated with complementing private uses (this doesn't mean they have to consume the site like Landmar's old plan).  A look across the country of vibrant downtown urban parks easily proves this.  Without the complementing private uses, you're basically looking at a remake of our pitiful rarely used Metropolitan Park instead of a Millenium Park, City Garden or Campus Martius.

lake.............how many acres are there Metropolitan Park? Is there enough area for a Convention Center? Maybe we are just looking in the wrong direction!

A convention center makes less sense, imo.  Those sites are just as isolated as the Prime Osborn and we can't support another Hyatt sized hotel in downtown.

Regarding short term use for the piers, I'd probably advocate opening them for unstructured public access, in whatever form that may take - fishing, strolling, sightseeing, etc.

Long term, I think a 680' jut into the river could be a grand place for some semi-permanent low profile (read: NOT museum size or style) exhibitions/installations by the St. Johns Riverkeeper, JU's marine biology program, the Jax Zoo, and/or an organization like BEAKS on Big Talbot Island (which if you don't know about them, give them a call...well worth your time and interest).  We don't have the money for a real aquarium at the site, but the river is the real draw to that property...the river is why it is valuable (culturally and economically)...the river should be integral in the use of the land.  These kinds of presences on the waterfront would serve to reinforce the "public access and use" portion of the property, increase general goodwill toward the site by the citizenry, and would create a natural "next door" draw for the groups that already use Met Park, such as all the schoolchildren that eat lunches there while on field trips.  Even without committing the entire 44 acre site to public use, maintaining public access along the waterfront, especially a more substantive presence than just a strip of Northbank Riverwalk, would serve the overall development of the greater downtown entertainment/sports/recreation corridor well.

As for Lakelander's 2nd comment, I fully agree and acknowledge that it will be some time before property values and the commercial RE market come back to "premium" levels.  However, I still believe that our carry cost on the property is extremely low.  With a huge opportunity like the Shipyards parcel is, I personally would much prefer the City to err on the side of caution and retain ownership than relinquish it to the first (or 4th, in this property's case) developer to throw a fistful of cash at them.  Let the developers have the JEA parcel on the southbank as their riverfront experiment/prize.  The Shipyards is too integral a link between core DT and the stadium/arena/Met Park complex to mess it up (again).

My suggestion to open the site for tailgating was purely a short term answer, I hadn't intended that COJ only open the site for football Sundays.  With a relatively minimal amount of prep/infrastructure, the site could pretty easily be used for festivals, flag football, softball, car shows, etc.

The sad fact is that COJ would more than likely play the budget card in denying any allocation of funds to open the site, since doing so would require security, administration, insurance, and would open them up to all sorts of lawsuit possibilities if someone were to get injured on "unsupervised City property".  Realistically, the hoops through which COJ would have to jump in order to "properly" prep the site for public use will, ironically, keep it inaccessible to the public until a private developer/partner comes along to mitigate the City's cost and liability.

So, anyone in the park vendor business want a contract to manage a riverfront park?   :)

bornnative............I concur! Any COJ usage would require a minimal expenditure to "Safety" and possible liability issue's! Current COJ funds would preclude spending allmost anything at all! Possibly signage saying "Use at own risk" or something similar...........I would bet OCG would be more than happy to provide verbage in lawyer speak! The container layout, might be quick and cheap, since they could be obtained at no cost for minimal restroom facilities and basic food's............set up could be minimal as well as removal..........add solar power, tank in potable water and that's pretty basic! Up and running in very short time............just fence off unused piers and mow/clean up as needed!

I know I've mentioned this before, but in Columbus there is a project underway to convert the now defunct City Center Mall to a park space that will eventually be converted to various uses. This seems like a good place to do the same thing. Create temporary park space which will later be developed.

Here's more info.

QuoteThe Project:
The Columbus Commons takes 1.2 million square feet of dead urban space and turns it into 9 live acres of inviting green space with trees, flowers, grass and walking paths.
That’s the future for the central parcel of property upon which City Center once stood. This Capitol South property will continue in its proud tradition of creating a space that draws people inside. This time, instead of concrete walls, the community will be drawn inside the beautiful natural surroundings of the Columbus Commons.

Capitol South surgically dismantled the entire mall from September 2009 into mid 2010, at which time construction began on the creation of a community park with one-third of the entire site reserved for market-driven development.  By late fall 2010 park construction will be complete and the park will open in spring of 2011.
Over time, the spot will help support the development of walkable neighborhoods that integrate residential living with retail, office and entertainment space.

http://www.downtowncolumbus.com/progress/columbus-commons (http://www.downtowncolumbus.com/progress/columbus-commons)


Initial phase
(http://www.downtowncolumbus.com/img/birds%20eye%20view%20112009%20web(1).jpg)

Next step
(http://www.downtowncolumbus.com/img/PARK%20PHASE%20I%20PLAN%20112009%20web(1).jpg)

Final Product
(http://www.downtowncolumbus.com/img/PARK%20MASTER%20PLAN%20112009%20web.jpg)

 I do like some of your views NorthMiami(as an avid kayaker, I welcome any additional public launch points but I'd personally never try to kayak downtown.

I'll be kayaking downtown in the morning about 7:15 putting in at RCB then heading over to the Northbank. May make it down to the Pier. When the city takes back ownership the Pier needs to remain separate. It can be used for passive and recreational access.  

Nice first shot Bornnative!

The idea for a public quay - seafood market and such would dovetail nicely with a remote location for a branch of the farmers market. The local fishing industry even at it's best would only be a small but interesting attraction, the same could be said of the crabbing business. I live near The Outback Crab Shack in WGV and often hang out at the landings on 6 Mile Creek. On any given day one can see a couple of commercial fishing boats come or go - MAX. These craft are typically about 23-28 feet long and like their big cousins they will have a stack of traps onboard usually in the 10-20 trap range. As one might gather from this, it is hardly a stellar industry, but as an aside to a larger market on the water concept it would be a very interesting niche.

Commercial charter boats are the one single fishing industry that could thrive and grow from this edge of downtown location. Deep Sea charters can adjust their fare to reflect the extra hour between Mayport and Downtown. The sheer Convenience of boarding downtown should attract a goodly number of operators. Big operations such as the off shore shrimpers and trawlers would be insane to go downtown due to the inability to hike prices to cover those extra miles and time.

Within the realm of fishing and pleasure boating we are already a strong player internationally, a quay with a scattering of marine suppliers, fishing, boating, tackle, boats, motors, and trailers would be a harmonious union with the public pier concept. Though I know Lake is not a big fan of launching plans around big box stores such as Bass Pro, this is one chain store that could stand alone or anchor a whole quay-village.

You are dead on about the barge traffic no longer moving downtown, but it does move up river (South) from Jacksonville. The traffic is considerable but there is nothing moving in that circuit that would an attraction to shoppers or curious sightseers. Thousands of pounds of steel, concrete, sand, gravel or bunker fuel oil jsut aren't sexy. There has been a desire at MJ to recreate the old downtown wharves with their freight markets, sales floors, and such, but it is just no longer possible. Transportation has changed so drastically that no longer are small coastal freighters or barges carrying loads of Zenith TV sets, Admiral Refrigerators, depression glassware or bath towels from cannon mills in the Carolina's. Those industries are largely gone, consolidated, merged, centralized, world market oriented and thoroughly digitized and containerized. NOBODY ships loose cargoes anymore, the economics are just not there.

I'd like us to move forward SLOWLY on this and aim at the whole 9 yards, aquarium, maritime museum, museum ship(s), big box specialty stores, quay, public market.

As a postscript:
I'd also be in favor of knocking out a segment of the wall along Hogan's Creek on this property just to create a safe DOWNTOWN landing for canoes, kayaks and very small sail boats. For those who don't know the hobby, landing a canoe on a concrete boat ramp is like trying to wash your feet with boots on. Ramps make it very easy to flip a paddle boat and once flipped have a nasty surface perfect for cracking heads, arms or legs.


OCKLAWAHA

QuoteThough I know Lake is not a big fan of launching plans around big box stores such as Bass Pro, this is one chain store that could stand alone or anchor a whole quay-village.

I'll have to take a closer look at it but I think a big box would take up most of that site.  Although its 44 acres, only around 28 or so is above water.  Looking at the site, its pretty narrow and split in half by Hogans Creek.  To accommodate a large big box and its parking, you're looking at removing those piers and filling in the waterfront (making the recently completed bulkhead work useless).

QuoteThe local fishing industry even at it's best would only be a small but interesting attraction, the same could be said of the crabbing business. I live near The Outback Crab Shack in WGV and often hang out at the landings on 6 Mile Creek. On any given day one can see a couple of commercial fishing boats come or go - MAX. These craft are typically about 23-28 feet long and like their big cousins they will have a stack of traps onboard usually in the 10-20 trap range. As one might gather from this, it is hardly a stellar industry, but as an aside to a larger market on the water concept it would be a very interesting niche.

Farmer's market aside, this is what I've been trying to say.  When I mention "fisherman's wharf", I'm not talking about something large scale, just where a few fisherman could enter the river, dock boats and unload them.  Even if the entire site were converted into a park, this is still something that could give that space a unique feel.

QuoteCommercial charter boats are the one single fishing industry that could thrive and grow from this edge of downtown location. Deep Sea charters can adjust their fare to reflect the extra hour between Mayport and Downtown. The sheer Convenience of boarding downtown should attract a goodly number of operators. Big operations such as the off shore shrimpers and trawlers would be insane to go downtown due to the inability to hike prices to cover those extra miles and time.

Within the realm of fishing and pleasure boating we are already a strong player internationally, a quay with a scattering of marine suppliers, fishing, boating, tackle, boats, motors, and trailers would be a harmonious union with the public pier concept.

So how does everyone feel about this?  This is another example of using portions of the site for marine based uses, which is basically my whole point.

QuoteThere has been a desire at MJ to recreate the old downtown wharves with their freight markets, sales floors, and such, but it is just no longer possible. Transportation has changed so drastically that no longer are small coastal freighters or barges carrying loads of Zenith TV sets, Admiral Refrigerators, depression glassware or bath towels from cannon mills in the Carolina's. Those industries are largely gone, consolidated, merged, centralized, world market oriented and thoroughly digitized and containerized. NOBODY ships loose cargoes anymore, the economics are just not there.

The MJ desire (it's really only been talked about by Stephendare & I) is to see a number of organic marine based uses clustered along this waterfront.  I don't think any envisions Jaxport moving in and turning the site into a container terminal or placing a paper mill on it.  On the other hand, that MJ desire is a concept where a mix of marine based uses stimulates synergy for additional use.  For example, you have a public space where commercial fishing industry could possibly enter/exit the river.  The pure presense of these two uses (no matter if you only getting two or three boats) presents the opportunity of fresh catch to be purchased at that space (even if its just a guy with an umbrella and ice box).  That would be an example of an organic use that comes from mixing a industry with the public.

I woke up ridiculously early today to scout out some of the crabbers along the Ortega River.  I'm going to talk to one of the guys in more detail on Saturday.  One of the guys I spoke with as I was standing on the Ortega River Bridge lol, had some interesting insights on the industry.  Some of the traps in that area are from out of town guys, and the percentage of crabs they sell locally isn't very high.  One of the guys gave me a lead to follow up on which I hope to do Saturday depending on this hellacious work schedule Ive been subjected to  :(

In the meantime, something to chew on... small cruise ship mooring/terminal for the Northernmost pier on the site.  Jax is home to one small cruise line: http://www.epicjourneys.com/AmericanCL.html (http://www.epicjourneys.com/AmericanCL.html).  You see it from time to time docked near the Hyatt.

QuoteCommercial charter boats are the one single fishing industry that could thrive and grow from this edge of downtown location. Deep Sea charters can adjust their fare to reflect the extra hour between Mayport and Downtown. The sheer Convenience of boarding downtown should attract a goodly number of operators. Big operations such as the off shore shrimpers and trawlers would be insane to go downtown due to the inability to hike prices to cover those extra miles and time.

Both very good points.

OCKLAWAHA

Bass likes to be near major highways....LaVilla would be more approriate for them than the Shipyards site

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 18, 2010, 11:17:41 AM
Bass likes to be near major highways....LaVilla would be more approriate for them than the Shipyards site

Guess you have obviously missed Branson and OKC's stores. Urban BFE!


OCKLAWAHA

Bass Pro has explored this market.  Downtown is not their choice of destination.

Quote from: fieldafm on August 18, 2010, 11:47:01 AM
Bass Pro has explored this market.  Downtown is not their choice of destination.

You boys and girls are missing the point. I can damn well gaurintee that "Bricktown" in Oklahoma City wasn't in anybody's sights either, it's all about how the concept is laid out and presented. I wouldn't suggest walking into Bass Pro and saying "We would really like to have a store..."  We will get a hell a lot more attention by creating this mega-marine-quay-port-hotel buzz throughout the retail world, then suggesting Bass Pro could be the major retail anchor.

OCKLAWAHA

BPS might be interested in DT if the incentives deal was steered that way.  Put a BPS in Brooklyn.  It could be on the river, on the Riverwalk, at the intersection of TWO interstates, and in the heart of the metro area all in same spot.    

The YMCA site might be one option, they have been looking to move to a new facilitu for years anyway.  of course, the dead Brooklyn Park land is an option as well.

The T-U offices site would be an option, they could use the money out of that asset.  The BPS would bring hotels too.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 18, 2010, 11:45:49 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 18, 2010, 11:17:41 AM
Bass likes to be near major highways....LaVilla would be more approriate for them than the Shipyards site

Guess you have obviously missed Branson and OKC's stores. Urban BFE!


OCKLAWAHA

from what I can tell the OKC store is ajacent to I-40 and I-235....and the Branson store is in the middle of a tourist area (like Destin, FL store).

I think the reality (as has neen noted here many times before) is that Bass Pro Shops would likely locate at SJTC...closer to the beach and adjacent to JTB and 9A...but I would definitely suuport/encourage them to look at the Brooklyn/LaVilla areas.

Just playing around at lunch time with Ock's Bass Pro/IKEA talk.

Bass Pro Oklahoma City (in Bricktown, yet directly adjacent to I-40)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Jacksonville-Shipyards/Bass-Pro-OKC/974248991_urvQF-L.jpg)

OKC Bass Pro & parking overlayed on Shipyards site
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Jacksonville-Shipyards/Bass-Pro-1/974248919_yfHqb-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Jacksonville-Shipyards/Bass-Pro-2/974248960_YmFZv-L.jpg)

Atlanta IKEA
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Jacksonville-Shipyards/IKEA-ATL/974249070_Um66q-L.jpg)

Atlanta IKEA (vertical parking), overlayed on Shipyards site
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Jacksonville-Shipyards/IKEA-2/974249048_DSaBp-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Jacksonville-Shipyards/IKEA-1/974249010_5X6wv-L.jpg)

Yeah, the OKC store is adjacent to I-40 but the access is pretty poor and somewhat convoluted. It really iS about as complicated trip as coming off I-95, over the Main Street Bridge, right on Bay a few blocks out to the store. Of course the OKC store does have canal access!

Branson is a tourist area without any interstate highways and miles and miles of Ozark Mountain roads. They do have an active airport as does Harrison, over in Arkansas. The country is stunning, but hardly urban, sophisticated or Avant-garde. The nearest "major" highway is in Springfield... however the proposed Kansas City - Jacksonville I-22 corridor passes nearby (on paper).

Also I don't think of this as the plan to end all plans, this is simply a store that doubles as an attraction, activity center etc... and could easily mold to fit the waterfront theme.

OCKLAWAHA
from a LONG line of Missouri-Ar-Ok-Ks bushwhackers!

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 18, 2010, 01:05:06 PM
Yeah, the OKC store is adjacent to I-40 but the access is pretty poor and somewhat convoluted. It really iS about as complicated trip as coming off I-95, over the Main Street Bridge, right on Bay a few blocks out to the store. Of course the OKC store does have canal access!

Ock...retailers aren't that concerned how hard it is to get to/from their store....just that it can be seen from the highway....the one outlet center in St. Aug. is a perfect example.

Reaching back the point about the small cruise ships...economically this is a non-starter.

The cruise line you referenced is extremely small, markets to a theme-cruise niche, and has a fleet of American flagged vessels.  These three points represent the very reasons why this wouldn't work.

#1 - Small cruise line = very few port calls.  For something of this size, we're talking 1-2 per year...possibly.  Unlike Carnival, etc., these small cruises have no problem canceling a cruise if the bookings don't materialize.  Ask Fernandina...their "regular" small cruise calls have dropped from 3 per year to 1 in the past 3 years, all due to decline in the small/inland cruise market.

#2 - These small/inland cruises market on a theme...look at the website that was given as example.  These are cruises of people doing a "birdwatching" or an "antebellum and historic waterfront" tour.  Downtown Jacksonville isn't what their looking for - think Savannah waterfront, Beaufort or Charleston, SC.

#3 - These small/inland cruise companies get away with lower costs through docking at small municipal dock facilities because they are a) using existing facilities that are already municipally maintained to cater to recreational boaters, and b) they are conducting commercial operations on American-flagged vessels.  To my knowledge, there are only 1-2 of the US-flagged "Jones Act" operators still in business on the east coast.  To bring in a foreign flagged cruise ship, no matter how small, would require someone to foot the bill to create/get approved a USCG Marine Terminal Facility Plan, a USCG Facility Security Plan, as well as arranging facilities on the shore side to meet all US CBP requirements for handling foreign vessels/passengers/crew.  This last issue is exactly what caused 2 cruise calls that I was working on in Savannah to cancel and re-route last year...there was no USCG FSP for the municipal dock, and the city had no interest in arranging/paying for one.

It's entertaining to talk about what would be the highest & most ideal use of this land, but we have to be realistic too. 

Sadly, economics don't lie, and I think that applies to the Bass Pro Shops idea also.  Might be nice, but is wholly unrealistic, especially since a BSP facility would consume a lot of the available space for only a very narrow piece of the commercial market spectrum.  Someway/somehow - smaller (than big-box at least), mixed-use commercial/public access is going to be the answer.

Just what we need, suburban, big box stores downtown, on our invaluable waterfront no less.  I thought you guys were boosters of the urban environment, not the sub-urban one.  ;)

^LOL. To be fair, Ock's more of a mass transit guy than an urbanite.

Quote from: bornnative on August 18, 2010, 03:13:30 PM
Reaching back the point about the small cruise ships...economically this is a non-starter.

The cruise line you referenced is extremely small, markets to a theme-cruise niche, and has a fleet of American flagged vessels.  These three points represent the very reasons why this wouldn't work.

#1 - Small cruise line = very few port calls.  For something of this size, we're talking 1-2 per year...possibly.  Unlike Carnival, etc., these small cruises have no problem canceling a cruise if the bookings don't materialize.  Ask Fernandina...their "regular" small cruise calls have dropped from 3 per year to 1 in the past 3 years, all due to decline in the small/inland cruise market.

Actually it is a very popular segment of the cruise industry, new ships are being launched and more and more schedules are planned. Jacksonville AND Fernandina, as well as Palatka, Sanford, St Augustine, Daytona etc... all have closer to 4 per month via American Cruise Lines 

http://www.epicjourneys.com/AmericanCL.html#anchor_59

2010 Independence:
November 6, 13, 20, 27
December 4, 11, 19, 26

2010 American Star:
November 6, 13, 20, 27
December 4, 11, 19, 26

2010 American Spirit: 
November 20, 27
December 4, 11, 19, 26

2010 American Glory: 
November 13
December 19, 26

2011 Independence:
April 2, 9, 16, 23, 20
November 5, 12, 19, 26
December 3, 10, 17, 24, 31

2011 American Star:
April 2, 9, 16, 23, 30
November 5, 12, 19, 26
December 3, 10, 17, 24, 31

2011 American Spirit:
February 26
March 5, 12, 19, 26
April 2, 9, 16, 23
November 19, 26
December 3, 10, 17, 24, 31

A newbie in the business is ACCL and it's new 96 passenger M/V Grande Caribe.
Blount Small ship adventures has also just added to it's fleet...
http://www.blountsmallshipadventures.com/

ALL OF THESE ARRIVE AND DEPART ON THE NORTHBANK RIVERWALK IN FRONT OF THE HYATT.

Quote#2 - These small/inland cruises market on a theme...look at the website that was given as example.  These are cruises of people doing a "birdwatching" or an "antebellum and historic waterfront" tour.  Downtown Jacksonville isn't what their looking for - think Savannah waterfront, Beaufort or Charleston, SC.

Downtown Jacksonville and the Riverwalk are very much a part of the business and featured in the cruises, The Landing, Hyatt and other local's may be playing a part in this. I would think that Lake and Stephen's quay-village-market concept would be a star attraction. Wouldn't it be cool if our JAXPORT folks could be convinced to create a small welcome center on the Riverwalk which could serve as a pedestrian-Marine welcome station for JAX and FLORIDA.

WE ARE THINKING ABOUT DOING A STORY ON THIS LITTLE KNOWN INDUSTRY.

QuoteIt's entertaining to talk about what would be the highest & most ideal use of this land, but we have to be realistic too. 

Sadly, economics don't lie, and I think that applies to the Bass Pro Shops idea also.  Might be nice, but is wholly unrealistic, especially since a BSP facility would consume a lot of the available space for only a very narrow piece of the commercial market spectrum.  Someway/somehow - smaller (than big-box at least), mixed-use commercial/public access is going to be the answer.

I respectively disagree, as I said, BPS might not be the be all - save all for the Shipyards property, but anyone that has ever been inside one of their "worlds" cannot deny they have one of the broadest spectrum of customers one could imagine. As someone else said, BPS and IKEA bring their own HOTELS and tourist related businesses where ever they go. For me that means putting vibrant life on the street DOWNTOWN.

Design a complete "Seaside Quay - Steamship Village", the success won't be built on Ikea or BPS, American Cruise Lines, a Maritime museum, aquarium, or Farm and Fish market. The individual elements, Fish Market, I-Max , Aquarium, or even the big box retailers, don't have to be the biggest, shinning, units in the chain either. The big box retailers don't even have to be on the current property, (think Hogan's Creek Walk, JSO, JAIL and 1/2 of a Berkman...) lot's of possibilities. The Success will be found in the synergy created by combining many venues large and small into a unique, walkable, transit oriented, pedestrian-auto-marine development.

...and Lake? WTF? NOT AN URBANEST? I believe you have insulted the metropolitan "World Golf Village!" Hee Hee!


OCKLAWAHA

Anyone want to go kayaking downtown? Does anyone know the guy named Todd who calls in on the Florida Sportsman's fishing show on Sat. mornings 7-9 on 9:30am.

I want to meet Todd. He promotes Downtown.

Yesterday, Put in at RCB at 7. There was a crabber putting in his boat. Takes his catch back to the family business up on Lem Turner. So Lake there is an opportunity to explore the marine use of the Shipyards location moving forward.

The key is to make available the opportunity for economic growth without the restictions of over regulated govt. restrictions.

Ock, I get what you're saying about the planned number of calls on the schedule, but I still think it's an economic issue.  These small lines are exactly that...small lines that don't have deep enough pockets to fund the necessary pier improvements themselves, and don't promise enough of a financial impact for the City to justify anyone in City Hall going to bat for them to foot the bill for the infrastructure.  That's exactly why they use municipal piers in all their stops, including the City-owned dock in front of the Hyatt...they only have to pay a slip fee and a per-head passenger tax to the City.  No dock upkeep, no rent, no property taxes, no building of anything.  Their margins are too slim.

Look, I get the idea of the quay-fishing village, I really do.  I dig it.  I think it would be a very cool thing to have a waterfront addition to downtown similar to what there is in St. Simons (with shops and restaurants), Mobile (with the ship-museum USS Alabama), Charleston, and Savannah.  This really comes down to a philosophical question of how best to accomplish something...anything...productive at the site that doesn't turn into another blighted failure on the waterfront.  Do we swing for the fences and go for a picturesque fishing village anchored by a boutique size Bass Pro Shops, or do we focus our collective energy on ensuring that City Hall mandates some public access set-aside (pier or otherwise) and go from there?  It's the same as pursuing legislation at the federal level...the incremental approach almost always works better that the "home-run" approach, especially when public funds would be needed during a down economy.

Trying to carve out 30 half-acre dedicated niches for cruise ships docks and farmers markets and containerized art shops and fishing/bait stores and seafood markets would do a disservice to the potential of the property to have a truly changing effect on downtown.  Organic growth is great, but it needs to be just that...set aside space, and promote growth, but do it within the context of a coherent greater plan.

And for goodness sake, realize that everything worth doing - costs.  Someone has to pay the bill, and in all likelihood, its not going to be the City anytime soon.

**sidebar...I kayak too, and downtown is a great paddle.  I'd love to have hand-launch access worked into the Shipyards somewhere.  Its a small footprint, and very inexpensive.  It would be a nice afterthought kind of inclusion.

I think we all bring powerful and important elements to such an idea as this. Bornnative want's the steady as she goes approach, NOTHING wrong with that.  Lake want's walable, connectivity, which we all support. Stephendare is pushing the history button in order to keep what ever we do, uniquely Jacksonville-Waterfront.  I just want to bust up the "same-old-shit-different-day" thinkers into a team of "what if" imagine.  Put together, it's a symphony of Jacksonville done right and I hope the city is listening.

Bornnative? Would you agree or disagree with my statements about concrete ramps and paddlers? Since most people on here have probably only seen canoes and kayaks in the movies or at summer camp it's a steep learning curve.

My wife and I were quite entertained one day when our muscle bound boy James was back on leave from the Army and wanted to go canoeing with us. All went fine until he ran the bow of his boat up on a concrete boat ramp, the splash and the ensuing thunder of new, exotic and previously unknown profanity's was hilarious.


OCKLAWAHA

I probably wasn't as clear as I had intended, but I actually do agree with you.  My intended point was that while I value and believe that the organic growth is the way to bring the property back, I think at some point it gets counterproductive to "overplan" the property use by specifying the particular business you want to place in each little corner of it.  That just doesn't seem organic to me...seems too heavy handed.  That's why I made the note about setting aside portions of the property as space for this kind of organic commercial growth, without insisting on creating business-specific infrastructure that has limited, if any, usefulness for other businesses.

And yes, Ock, I do agree that canoes/kayaks and concrete ramps do not mix.  A point sadly lost on most boat-ramp users and designers.   :)

The water fronting property is too 'valuable',too distinctive to turn over to standard commercial endeavors which would likely flop anyway.Even a Bass Pro effort seems so bland.

Quote from: Noone on August 19, 2010, 06:11:56 AM
Anyone want to go kayaking downtown? Does anyone know the guy named Todd who calls in on the Florida Sportsman's fishing show on Sat. mornings 7-9 on 9:30am.

I want to meet Todd. He promotes Downtown.

I have kayaked downtown.Also small craft such as 15' aluminum with small hp outboard.
Running the creek that passes under the Times Union parking lot and on out to the other side is,well,interesting.
Also Goat Island at Arlington Expressway bridge.

Conditions potentially treacherous for kayakers.No shoreline access in the event of a flip.Perhpas mediated with sit on top type kayaks.And of course significant tidal currents,although folks from Colorado would deem the currents manageable.(Coloradians are always amazed Florida's water and wild land recreation opportunities).
Concerns with large vessel traffic too- kaykers advised to make shore to shore crossings via the railroad bridge.

No matter how demanding or limiting,I believe we would see more small craft use downtown if there were more small craft launch facility spontaneous and nearby to the immediate vicinity and custom shoreline and Landing kayak access facility.

How about akin to Pier 39, San Francisco?
(http://www.pier39.com/UserFiles/Image/HomepageSlideshow/ss_photo4.jpg)

Like New York City, San Francisco uses public/private partnerships to get things paid for:

QuoteWe invite you to join our limited group of elite Corporate Sponsors.

Coca-Cola
Coca-Cola is the world's leading manufacturer, marketer and distributor of non-alcoholic beverages, producing nearly 300 beverage brands. As the ubiquitous beverage brand, Coca-Cola has a passion to quench the thirst of its billions of friends around the world. As a partner of PIER 39 since 1991, Coca-Cola has been aggressively activating its partnership through retail promotions, on- PIER point-of-sales, and sampling programs to constantly enhance the visitor experience and associate Coca-Cola with that memorable occasion. Odwalla, a premium juice brand owned by Coca-Cola, is also featured throughout the PIER and has activated its partnership through on-site sampling events each year. Visit Odwalla and Coca-Cola.

Crystal Geyser ALPINE SPRING WATER
Crystal Geyser ALPINE SPRING WATER'S primary goal is to offer the highest quality spring water at everyday value prices. As a local business, Crystal Geyser has partnered with PIER 39 since 1989 by intimately linking their brand through their title sponsorship of the Crystal Geyser ALPINE SPRING WATER Center Stage. Their on-site presence ties in with the free, fun, family entertainment showcased at PIER 39. With millions of visitors annually, PIER 39 provides an ideal venue for driving sales of their spring water products. Visit Crystal Geyser ALPINE SPRING WATER.

Dreyer's Grand Ice Cream
Founded in 1928 in Oakland, CA, Dreyer's Grand Ice Cream is the leading premium ice cream brand in the United States. In 2006, Dreyer's became a wholly-owned subsidiary of Nestlé and now offers a range of branded ice cream products including Dreyer's and Edy's, Häagen-Dazs', Nestlé frozen snacks, and Starbucks' ice cream and frozen snacks. With a longstanding partnership with PIER 39 since 1994, Dreyer's has successfully leverages this venue by selling their products to the millions of visitors who frequent the PIER each year. In 2009, Dreyer’s remodeled the PIER 39 Scoop Shop to create a Dreyer’s Grand Ice Cream flagship store at PIER 39. Visit Dreyer's Grand Ice Cream.

El Mensajero
El Mensajero is the only home-delivered Spanish-language newspaper that covers the entire Bay Area. With more than 103,000 copies delivered to the reader’s door step and more than 18,000 available at single copy locations, El Mensajero is the largest Spanish weekly with an audited circulation. This has made El Mensajero the best print choice in the Bay Area for advertisement and public service announcements geared toward the Latino community. In 2007, El Mensajero proudly celebrated its 20th year of service to the Bay Area’s Latino community. An essential part of this service has been sponsoring and presenting family-oriented events and activities which have been made possible through meaningful partnerships, such as the one with PIER 39. For more information, visit El Mensajero.

The Examiner
The Examiner is a free, home-delivered newspaper delivered to more than 200,000 households in San Francisco and San Mateo Counties and reaches more than 250,000 households on the weekend. The Examiner has been a beloved San Francisco institution for more than 140 years. Its easy-to-read, compact format focuses on local news, sports, business and entertainment and is specifically tailored to Bay Area busy lifestyles. For more information, visit The Examiner.

Wines of California
Wines of California operates the Wines of California Wine Bar, the Wines of California Retail Store, and Swiss Louis Italian Restaurant at PIER 39. The Wines of California Wine Bar, located on the first level of PIER 39, features 1,200 square feet of indoor/outdoor dining and wine tasting space overlooking the San Francisco Bay and the PIER 39 Marina. Offerings include a unique selection of fine wines from more than 25 California wineries, as well as small bites, spectacular views, and heated patio seating. Wines of California also hosts wine tasting events and opportunities to meet the winemakers from each of the featured wineries.

The Wines of California Retail Store, located at the Bay End of PIER 39, offers a wide selection of California Wines for sale on-site and also for shipment throughout the United States.

Hours: Open everyday from 11:00 am - 10:00 pm.
Phone: 888.981.9463
Located mid-PIER on Level 1
www.winesofca.com

Telemundo 48
Telemundo 48/KSTS-TV is the Telemundo network Spanish-language station in the San Francisco Bay Area serving more than 1.4 million Hispanics. Telemundo 48 offers the best in originally produced novelas Monday - Friday from 7-11PM. Telemundo 48 is home to premiere sports properties such as the Mexican Soccer League and the 2008 Beijing Summer Olympics. Telemundo 48’s local line-up includes the award-winning Noticiero 48 at 6PM and 11PM. On weekends, Telemundo 48 produces Telemundo Deportivo, the only Spanish-language local sports program in the Bay Area, which airs Saturdays at 6PM. On Sundays at 6PM, Telemundo 48 presents Vive Telemundo, a half-hour newsmagazine featuring local entertainment and community events. For more information, call Telemundo 48 at 408.944.4848 or visit www.telemundo48.com.

See: http://www.pier39.com/index.cfm

I probably just missed it somewhere, but why not a marina for private recreational power and sailboats?  Boats make a waterfront more interesting.  The city marina is located on the narrowest segment of the river and suffers from the problem of strong tidal currents. The shipyard site has less current and more space.

Here's Gothenburg, Sweden's, city marina;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Lilla_Bommen_in_Gothenburg.jpg/800px-Lilla_Bommen_in_Gothenburg.jpg

It is surrounded by restaurants, shops, the opera, and is the origin point for sightseeing boats, and is the home of Sweden's largest sailing vessel (now a restaurant). 

Just a thought.

QuoteHow about akin to Pier 39, San Francisco?

Don't mean to be a negative nanny, but wouldnt that just be recreating the Landing at a spot 8 blocks down?

Quote from: tayana42 on August 19, 2010, 08:58:22 PM
I probably just missed it somewhere, but why not a marina for private recreational power and sailboats?  Boats make a waterfront more interesting.  The city marina is located on the narrowest segment of the river and suffers from the problem of strong tidal currents. The shipyard site has less current and more space.

Here's Gothenburg, Sweden's, city marina;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Lilla_Bommen_in_Gothenburg.jpg/800px-Lilla_Bommen_in_Gothenburg.jpg

It is surrounded by restaurants, shops, the opera, and is the origin point for sightseeing boats, and is the home of Sweden's largest sailing vessel (now a restaurant).  

Just a thought.

I have been employed in the Jacksonville pleasure boat industry since 1984, 'Jacksonvillemarinamile" was my brainchild (see www.jacksonvillemarinamile.com)

I would down play a marina concept.
The River City Marina is in a state of disrepair.Emphasis should be on existing facility.

Most importantly- we need boating and cruising DESTINATION,a place to go.

Again-the Shipyards property is too valuable,too distinctive for private vessel long term mooring or any other standard 'marina' or any typical commercial venture which would likely flop anyway.

north miami...........you have very valid points and there is merit to what you have posted! I can understand your reservations and do agree that a marina type enviroment may not be the best use for the Ship Yards. Right now we are just discussing things and all viewpoints are welcomed! Since the City still does not have that property back into the City fold, all is speculation! I still think there is a back room deal that has been struck without taxpayer knowledge or consent! Time will tell!

Quote from: CS Foltz on August 20, 2010, 12:06:43 PM
north miami...........you have very valid points and there is merit to what you have posted! I can understand your reservations and do agree that a marina type enviroment may not be the best use for the Ship Yards. Right now we are just discussing things and all viewpoints are welcomed! Since the City still does not have that property back into the City fold, all is speculation! I still think there is a back room deal that has been struck without taxpayer knowledge or consent! Time will tell!

Most masterful CS Folz, indeed I have made a note of your possibly prophetic post on this thread of August 17,2010 4:21 PM.

-N.M.

Quote from: CS Foltz on August 17, 2010, 04:21:57 PM
I still wonder if there has not been a back room deal allready made! The reason being, neither Gaffney nor Redman have come forth with an amendment reserving that part for the public! A lack of interest from the Council bodes not well to me!

***

Quote from: fieldafm on August 20, 2010, 09:34:45 AM

QuoteHow about akin to Pier 39, San Francisco?

Don't mean to be a negative nanny, but wouldnt that just be recreating the Landing at a spot 8 blocks down?

That does not have to be a negative. If you have too much competition in an area it can hurt existing retailers and restaurants etc. Until you get to the point where you have enough going on that it now attracts enough people to shop, visit, eat, do business and and live in the area to now support all of the businesses by achieving critical mass.

Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on August 17, 2010, 11:08:11 PM
I know I've mentioned this before, but in Columbus there is a project underway to convert the now defunct City Center Mall to a park space that will eventually be converted to various uses. This seems like a good place to do the same thing. Create temporary park space which will later be developed.

Here's more info.

QuoteThe Project:
The Columbus Commons takes 1.2 million square feet of dead urban space and turns it into 9 live acres of inviting green space with trees, flowers, grass and walking paths.
That’s the future for the central parcel of property upon which City Center once stood. This Capitol South property will continue in its proud tradition of creating a space that draws people inside. This time, instead of concrete walls, the community will be drawn inside the beautiful natural surroundings of the Columbus Commons.

Capitol South surgically dismantled the entire mall from September 2009 into mid 2010, at which time construction began on the creation of a community park with one-third of the entire site reserved for market-driven development.  By late fall 2010 park construction will be complete and the park will open in spring of 2011.
Over time, the spot will help support the development of walkable neighborhoods that integrate residential living with retail, office and entertainment space.

http://www.downtowncolumbus.com/progress/columbus-commons (http://www.downtowncolumbus.com/progress/columbus-commons)


Initial phase
(http://www.downtowncolumbus.com/img/birds%20eye%20view%20112009%20web(1).jpg)

Next step
(http://www.downtowncolumbus.com/img/PARK%20PHASE%20I%20PLAN%20112009%20web(1).jpg)

Final Product
(http://www.downtowncolumbus.com/img/PARK%20MASTER%20PLAN%20112009%20web.jpg)

Rehash: great points Fallen Buckeye!  I agree that private developments should be phased in.  Shipyards is too isloated for a major public use like a convention center and right now is also too isolated for glitzy hotels and condos (will always be too isolated for office towers, I think).  I say there should be a private-public partnership to develope the shipyards in phases, starting with making at least the western half public park space to start off with, and then as the economy and things pick back up start rolling in the big guns/buildings.

Gentlemen........... a phased developement make sense looking at this from a long range point of view! There is not enough private/public funding available to do much of anything! One small step at a time makes sense from a money stand point but there really should be an overall picture or vision. I am not sure that the Council would have that vision............maybe this is something that should be discussed with the Mayoral Candidates? They all should have some kind of idea...........granted this is only one issue, but I think should be included in all of their platforms!

Several small developments would be preferable to one big one, IMO.  The big ones tend to be dependent on bank financing and take longer to design and permit.

UL, I agree. Several small developments would be preferable to one big one. and CS, I agree that this should be one of the biggest city council and Mayoral campaign issues. Not just on the 44 acres but also should the 680' Promised Downtown Public Pier be sparate.

Remember. We are getting this 44 acres back. Not skill, just dumb luck.

Right now there are numerous pending legislative actions that can insure that the people of Jacksonville get back the Promised Downtown Public Pier.

2010-604 the legislation that is paving the way for regaining full city control of the former Shipyards/Landmar will soon be voted on by our city council. With no amendments.

Downtown Vision has a boundry. The boundry stops at Berkman Plaza or Plaza at Berkman. Should legislation be introduced that would extend the boundry of Downtown Vision to include the 680' Promised Downtown Public Pier? I'd say yes