Curious what you guys think about it, especially the flailing octopus of off/on ramps that connect with downtown.
A lot of money was spent to exclude that part of downtown from the rest.
When it reaches the end of its life it should be torn down and not replaced.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453546754_gbD4W-L.jpg)
Yes it's overkill. 9B and the Outer Beltway are too.
What Lunican said.
I'm pretty sure there was a thread where the overkill of Hart was discussed. Most were in favor of tearing it down rather than rebuilding it. There really needs to be a master plan/vision for this area. Everything east of Berkman and South of Arlington Expressway should be in one overall plan. I do remember a thread where residential was envisioned for the "point."
Mullaney specifically mentions the "future idea" of removing it in his letter following the Kansas City trip.
this is something worth persuing. My great grandmothers house on Adams St was torn down for this project and I have the pictures to prove it!
I'm all for bringing it down but with a VISION, say:
A Buenos Aires style parkway with Skyway down it.
(http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/buenos-aires-147156880.jpg)
Almost looks like home doesn't it?
(http://duncanmitchel.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/image.jpg)
Okay, maybe not, but it IS way cool!
BTW Stephen, THIS is what I was talking about in Buenos Aries.
OCKLAWAHA
the idea of replacing it with a boulevard at street level was included in the 2035 LRTP Needs Plan....money was not identidied (reconstruction is separate pot olf money) so it was not included in the Cost Feasible Plan.
Bet it wasn't a "Buenos Aries" boulevard. What do y'all think, would something like this be cool or what?
OCKLAWAHA
Who knows what goes on in the mind of the GREAT planners of this city. At the time maybe they thought it was a good idea.
Bay Street extended out to Commodore Point(if I remember correctly) with Ock's Buenos Aires Parkway and streetcar down the middle would be beautiful and a huge boost for development along the whole stretch. Infill the stadium parking lots with residential, entertainment, restaurants, retail and green space; rework Metro Park into a real festival park; create a public pier and throw some towers up in the Shipyards area...and now we're talking!!! I guarantee we won't have to beg to sell Jaguars tickets either.
I counted 16-lanes of traffic on that Buenos Aires Pkwy is that what we want downtown?
I'm pretty sure I can speak for Ock as well. We aren't interested in the 16 lanes of traffic. The "look and feel" of a tree lined parkway with mass transit, and rows of tall buildings was more what we are after. Big, Bold and Beautiful!
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 11, 2010, 10:02:43 PM
the idea of replacing it with a boulevard at street level was included in the 2035 LRTP Needs Plan....money was not identidied (reconstruction is separate pot olf money) so it was not included in the Cost Feasible Plan.
Reconstruction? What's wrong with using Gator Bowl Blvd and Bay St?
^ They of course would be utilized. I was thinking this discussion was about what happens when the Hart is torn down. With it gone there is the opportunity for a new design, perhaps a beautiful tree-lined parkway that extends all the way to the river. ;)
the idea was to use bridge reconstruction funds (that would have been needed for the raisxed expressway) to tear it down and enhance Bay Street/Gator Bowl Blvd.
That way, the project wouldn't have to be funded with the limited "new capacit" money available in the cost feasible plan.
Quote from: brainstormer on August 13, 2010, 07:40:52 PM
I'm pretty sure I can speak for Ock as well. We aren't interested in the 16 lanes of traffic. The "look and feel" of a tree lined parkway with mass transit, and rows of tall buildings was more what we are after. Big, Bold and Beautiful!
EXACTLY, a wide, bold, immaculate, manicured, place for flora and fauna alike, a street so different that people come from all around the South just to experience it and its sundry attractions.
BTW, the original probably wasn't overkill as the Commodore Point Expressway was to join JTB out at Town Center and hence run right out to the beach. Had this ever been done, we'd probably need all of it just to distribute the traffic. Sadly when the "good ol boys" put the quietus on the extension, they rendered the multimillion dollar HART bridge a terrible waste of money. Dumb as a sack of shit.
OCKLAWAHA
Just wondering if anything ever became of this idea, specifically the part about tearing down the octopus of feeder ramps downtown??
I live downtown and have a son at Episcopal, and consequently drive the Hart every day. Its a lovely bridge, and the south side portion of the expressway is a super convenient way to get out to Beach Blvd when necessary. But the downtown portion is madness, completely unnecessary, and a visual blight on downtown.
In my opinion it would be awesome if the bridge simply came down to the surface streets at the stadium and connected with Bay St. Tear down all that horrid concrete crap that chops up the stadium district. Bay St is like 6 lanes wide out there. As configured, the elevated expressway only serves to divide the stadium from the river, isolate Metropolitan Park, and reduce the number of souls down in the east end at any given time.
It needs to go. How do we do this? Who makes that call?
It likely won't go anywhere until its useful lifespan is nearing completion....at that time, it will be important to have a community discussion on the value of rehabbing, replacing, or tearing it down....I'm guessing those conversations are in the next 5-10 years
I always thought it reminded me of something I'd do in SimCity that no one would use but that would eventually bankrupt me with maintenance.
Who would ultimately make that call? Is that the city? FL DOT? I wonder if that conversation could be accelerated by folding the demolition into a comprehensive plan to improve the far east-end of downtown and the East Bay? Say, one master project that pulled down the elevated expressway, and turned the riverfront from Metropolitan Park all the way down to the Old Courthouse into a centerpiece park. Bay St becomes the grand riverfront boulevard it could and should be. To make it perfect they could drop the Skyway down to street level through the new park all the way down to the Stadium.
FDOT.
It was brought up (somewhat quietly) as part of the last North Florida TPO LRTP Update....the next LRTP Update will be starting this year and it could be discussed in more detail...it could also find its way into Jax 2025 discussions, although it may be too sepcific for an overall city vision
I've seen it mentioned on this site somewhere that on south southbank side of the hart expressway, the expressway was supposed to continue on down to southside. Does anyone know what the original plan was or have a picture?
While we're at it, what about the Arlington expressway connection around Union Street?
Is there any futher discussion about working on that?
I think that was Ock that mentioned it.
Quote from: billy on January 09, 2013, 01:18:33 PM
While we're at it, what about the Arlington expressway connection around Union Street?
Is there any futher discussion about working on that?
Isn't this what MLK already does?
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 13, 2010, 09:44:21 PM
Quote from: brainstormer on August 13, 2010, 07:40:52 PM
I'm pretty sure I can speak for Ock as well. We aren't interested in the 16 lanes of traffic. The "look and feel" of a tree lined parkway with mass transit, and rows of tall buildings was more what we are after. Big, Bold and Beautiful!
EXACTLY, a wide, bold, immaculate, manicured, place for flora and fauna alike, a street so different that people come from all around the South just to experience it and its sundry attractions.
BTW, the original probably wasn't overkill as the Commodore Point Expressway was to join JTB out at Town Center and hence run right out to the beach. Had this ever been done, we'd probably need all of it just to distribute the traffic. Sadly when the "good ol boys" put the quietus on the extension, they rendered the multimillion dollar HART bridge a terrible waste of money. Dumb as a sack of shit.
OCKLAWAHA
That's it! Those damned good ol' boys who ran this town for so long. Doing things on the cheap and/or ass backwards - and acting like they were doing something special.
(As for the good ol'boys: Davis [family], Paxson, Burns, Ritter, & Lanahan immediately come to mind. I know there are alot more)
As far as construction and demolition is concerned, in a fantasy world where money and approvals were no problem, the Hart/Commodore Point Expressway could be salvaged.
1. Eliminate 80% of the ramps, including the long trek along/above Bay Street. The exception being the connection with the MLK/Haines Street Expressway.
2. Parkway the entire length of Bay from the Lafayette to Talleyrand, complete street + monorail
3. Extend the east end of the 4 elevated lanes on Beach east to Southside Boulevard, the 4 C/D lanes remain at ground level. Alternative routes exist along Beach or via Hogan and approaching Southside on Hogan or at Anders (power line Right of Way) which could be extended all the way to St. Johns Bluff.
4. Add modern expressway lighting and landscaping.
This would at least salvage the sizable investment made in a FREEway that was supposed to tie the STJTC area with town by becoming a usable alternative for the typical gridlock on Southside and Beach.
Meanwhile don't worry over the Arlington Expressway connection with State and Union until the bridge over the old railroad yard, Hogans Creek, Palmetto and Randolph collapse in a giant smoldering heap. When that happens we'll get free money and a fun round of finger pointing.
All this discussion of taking down these artificial barriers is upsetting Ed Ball. Can you stop please? ;) ;)
Quote from: coredumped on January 09, 2013, 12:04:29 PM
I've seen it mentioned on this site somewhere that on south southbank side of the hart expressway, the expressway was supposed to continue on down to southside. Does anyone know what the original plan was or have a picture?
I don't have pictures or schematics, but I do recall that in the late 80s, there was still residual speculation in communities near Parental Home Road and Hogan that the expressway extension could still be extended down Hogan Road to Southside Blvd. I vaguely recall a high amount of confusion and rumour regarding whether the terminus at Southside was intended to be at Hogan and Southside or if it was to be located further north and cut through the Pottsburg Park housing project to the west of the Pottsburg post office on Southside Blvd.
Highlights from a meeting held in 1962:
• At the meeting of the Jacksonville Exchange Club in the George Washington Hotel, County Commissioner Bob Harris called the proposed Commodore’s Point Bridge “a $39 million monstrosity†and said he was “violently opposed†to threats made against an elected board.
Harris told the club the Jacksonville Expressway Authority, which had proposed a bridge over the St. Johns River at Commodore’s Point, had threatened to increase tolls on three existing bridges on the Expressway unless the commission renewed its pledge to earmark gasoline tax money for an additional bond issue.
“If this is done, it will be 10 years before we get any tax money for secondary roads,†said Harris.
He said that from 1960 until 1961, the gasoline tax revenue pledged for the recently completed Expressway system had been held in escrow.
“We are just starting to get that money and I don’t want it to stop. We need it to repair roads all over Duval County and to buy rights of way for primary roads,†Harris said.
In addition, he said that toll revenues were down on the Mathews, Fuller Warren and Trout River bridges while traffic on the toll-free bridges was increasing.
“If the Commodore’s Point Bridge is built, it will have to have steady, 24-hour traffic in order to bring in enough tolls to pay for itself,†said Harris.
I really enjoy the continued futile talk of this 'controversial' ramp that was built many many years ago; It still will be here whenever we all past on anyway, if you can't beat it, accept it is my motto. Call me crazy, but I enjoy the DT bound trip over the ramp passing Everbank Field.
We don't build things to last. Like the I-95 Overland Bridge, eventually it will become deficient enough that it will either need to be torn down or hundreds of millions spent on building a new replacement. I suspect, when that time comes, it won't be rebuilt in its current configuration.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 10, 2013, 06:51:31 AM
We don't build things to last. Like the I-95 Overland Bridge, eventually it will become deficient enough that it will either need to be torn down or hundreds of millions spent on building a new replacement. I suspect, when that time comes, it won't be rebuilt in its current configuration.
Especially condidering the amount of traffic it gets.
I like driving on it too, it's like a race track haha. When it becomes deficient though I am 100% for removing it and transitioning that traffic to bay street. The only elevated portion I would still be ok with is the part from the MLK parkway to the bridge.
I'm not holding my breath for that overpass to become dangerously 'deficient' anytime soon. It's in tip-top shape compared to many of the highways throughout this country that I've driven. Remember this is the USA a country that's well known to hold on to most old road infrastructure.
Give it 10 to 20 years.
Quote from: coredumped on January 09, 2013, 12:04:29 PM
I've seen it mentioned on this site somewhere that on south southbank side of the hart expressway, the expressway was supposed to continue on down to southside. Does anyone know what the original plan was or have a picture?
Yes, the Hart Expressway was originally supposed to link to JTB. Men of influence realized this would not be in line with their financial interests and 'suggested' the expressway terminate at Parental Home... Thereby changing the financial fortunes of rival land speculators and preserving their own.
Jim Crooks has a lot of research on this. He also co-produced a program with Jax Historical Society through WJCT. I think you can watch it online.
For those of you who might be bored, you can look at the Traffic and Economic Impact study of the Hart bridge that was done in 1962. It is part of the special collections library at UNF. It is under the Arthur Sollee collection. There's actually a lot of good transportation related stuff in there.
http://www.unf.edu/library/specialcollections/manuscripts/containers/Arthur_N__Sollee_Papers_Container.aspx
The southbound Hart Bridge side has only one lane without the ramp; Where is the other lane gonna come from to form two lanes? That ramp IS a part of the Hart Bridge, if the ramp comes down, than so does the entire bridge which won't happen.
Are you saying you think it's impossible to bring the expressway down to grade without tearing down the bridge over the river?
^^^Oh, so tear down some road, and add some also that surely makes sense. Yall keep dreaming of the waterfront condos that will soon replace that ramp. Try visiting cities in the Northeast to know what's deficient.
It's really funny, the Hart Bridge itself is in decent shape, but the ramp oh no, it's supposedly a crumbling Roman ruin that's apparently on it's last legs, haha yall crack me up. I get that many don't like the ramp, but lets get real here.
Quote from: I-10east on January 10, 2013, 08:48:18 AM
^^^Oh, so tear down some road, and add some also that surely makes sense. Yall keep dreaming of the waterfront condos that will soon replace that ramp. Try visiting cities in the Northeast to know what's deficient.
It hasn't worked for over a dozen cities of our same size, so you're probably right.
Sticking your head in the sand is an art form in this city. If reasonable discussions about the possibilities of fixing inherent issues in our community anger you so much, why do you keep reading?
You do realize that elevated concrete roadways, just like aircraft carriers and processed foods have useful life spans. The Overland Bridge isn't being reconstructed just because our engineers don't know what they are doing. The Hart Expressway ramps will probably reach the end if their useful life spans within the next decade. It doesn't hurt to start having the conversation well enough in advance to research and debate viable solutions.
;)
(http://news.legalexaminer.com/uploadedImages/InjuryBoardcom_Content/Blogs/News_Blog/News/bridge%20collapse500.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_SqsTu1kXgNg/TDIC60szv2I/AAAAAAAAC7o/0qZQgYjIHeo/s1600/nothing_to_see_here.jpg)
Quote from: I-10east on January 10, 2013, 08:39:24 AM
The southbound Hart Bridge side has only one lane without the ramp; Where is the other lane gonna come from to form two lanes? That ramp IS a part of the Hart Bridge, if the ramp comes down, than so does the entire bridge which won't happen.
You may want to google what those big steel structures above the bridge are used for so you understand the engineering a little better. The load supporting the over water span is not supported in the same way as the load on the concrete elevated highway.
Quote from: fieldafm on January 10, 2013, 09:01:40 AM
If reasonable discussions about the possibilities of fixing inherent issues in our community anger you so much, why do you keep reading?
Apparently me having reasonable, likely, and realistic thoughts concerning this ramp matter angers you so much. Gotta love the old 'if you don't agree in unison with MJ, get out' mentality.
Quote from: fieldafm on January 10, 2013, 09:17:57 AM
You may want to google what those big steel structures above the bridge are used for so you understand the engineering a little better. The load supporting the over water span is not supported in the same way as the load on the concrete elevated highway.
Field, you are way offbase, I don't even know what you're taking about. I was referring to the ACTUAL existing design of the Southbound side of the bridge. Keep on wishing for the luxury hi rises to replace your most hated landmark...
Quote from: I-10east on January 10, 2013, 11:27:20 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on January 10, 2013, 09:01:40 AM
If reasonable discussions about the possibilities of fixing inherent issues in our community anger you so much, why do you keep reading?
Apparently me having reasonable, likely, and realistic thoughts concerning this ramp matter angers you so much. Gotta love the old 'if you don't agree in unison with MJ, get out' mentality.
I don't think "reasonable, likely and realistic" thoughts are the problem here friend.. However, the blind anger and vitriol you spew in place of those "reasonable, likely and realistic thoughts" dont really do much to advance the conversation.
^^^Example?? Blind Anger & vitriol? Sounds pretty harsh. I guess that it's okay for someone to give me the biz, but I'm supposed to remain humble always just because you disagree with me, right?
^^^I'm not saying that everyone on MJ shares the 'our way or the highway' but some people elude to comments like that. For example"Why do you keep reading?" and I was just calling it out.
Man, regurgitating tiresome posts for YEARS and YEARS is like being in an asylum or something; I dunno what people see in it, but whatever floats the repeaters boats ( I can't wait until a new store is announced in the SJTC) *sigh*
Duval has 712 bridges of which 104 are seriously deficient. Ramp structures such as the Bay Street connector to the Hart or the Overland Bridge are defective due largely to carbonization. The results of this carbonization causes the rebar to erode away, leaving you with a lot of unsupported concrete. I've been meeting with the engineers for the Overland Bridge project and confirmed this is exactly what has happened on the Southbank. I suspect the same would be true for the Bay Street connector to the Hart as it traverses the old WWII shipyards and the soil is no doubt contaminated with carbon and other exotic chemicals.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/ScreenShot2013-01-10at114028AM_zpsb9565a22.png)
I-10East hasn't a clue about the bridge quality because that quality is not found in the 'ride' but in the structure itself. I'm starting to think that we could fill the Laura trio with dog shit and I-10 would be telling us its a great idea because after all, it's OUR dog shit.
^^^So you're giving me a lil' of the 'blind anger and vitriol' Ock? I take it that you're a structural engineer that can confirm that ramps structure since I can't huh? Wow, it's really pathetic all of the hate that many have for a freaking ramp, which has land underneath that will more than likely always be owned by the DOT anyway, just sad...
Quote from: I-10east on January 10, 2013, 12:00:25 PM
I can't wait until a new store is announced in the SJTC) *sigh*
Expect this soon. I'm pondering the addition of a monthly Southside construction update to the mix.
Quote from: I-10east on January 10, 2013, 08:48:18 AM
^^^Oh, so tear down some road, and add some also that surely makes sense. Yall keep dreaming of the waterfront condos that will soon replace that ramp. Try visiting cities in the Northeast to know what's deficient.
talk to Portland, Milwaukee, and San Francisco....and the newest cities to explore the concept: Baltimore and New Orleans
I got a bright idea! Maybe I can intentionally bore yall out of far-fetched and ultra-tiresome redundant posts by making a 'Ramp' and 'SJTC parking' thread every single month; Unfortunately they still will get alot of comments...
^^^Well I guess that the the words 'professorial' and 'redundancy' are synonyms. I don't think that it takes a professorial to have a reasonable conversation, and I don't consider myself an one-dimensional person stuck in a football realm. I just don't think that ramp is going anywhere anytime soon, and what professorial can tell me that I'm totally wrong?
^I think everyone agrees that the ramp isn't going anywhere anytime soon. However, there will come a time, within most of our lifetimes, when the ramp will either have to be rebuilt or taken down.
Quote from: I-10east on January 10, 2013, 12:15:03 PM
^^^So you're giving me a lil' of the 'blind anger and vitriol' Ock? I take it that you're a structural engineer that can confirm that ramps structure since I can't huh? Wow, it's really pathetic all of the hate that many have for a freaking ramp, which has land underneath that will more than likely always be owned by the DOT anyway, just sad...
I'm not a structural engineer, however as a transportation consultant I HAVE been working directly with the engineers on the Overland Bridge Project and am very familiar with the problem these structures have anywhere the soil is contaminated with carbon.
It just gets very tired to point out a deficiency and suggest a fix (to make the city better) and then have you all over the threads going freaking nuts because someone identified a problem in Jacksonville. Had you not identified a serious communications problem at an early age you'd still be using 'goo goo' as part of your vocabulary. Likewise for a city to grow and mature we MUST identify problems right down to the nuts and bolts so as not to see a repeat of the Minneapolis bridge collapse here in Duval. Your knee jerk reaction to virtually any constructive conversation is consistently over the top.
BTW, Lake, the ramp is in poor shape and scores rather low in the national inventory.
Quote from: spuwho on January 09, 2013, 11:47:19 PM
All this discussion of taking down these artificial barriers is upsetting Ed Ball. Can you stop please? ;) ;)
Another one of the good ol' boys. Thanx.
Forgot Tanzler, Godbold, and Austin(sort of). Mayors put in by the good ol'boys.
Quote from: fieldafm on January 10, 2013, 09:01:40 AM
Sticking your head in the sand is an art form in this city. If reasonable discussions about the possibilities of fixing inherent issues in our community anger you so much, why do you keep reading?
Brilliant.
Quote from: I-10east on January 10, 2013, 12:38:00 PM
I got a bright idea! Maybe I can intentionally bore yall out of far-fetched and ultra-tiresome redundant posts by making a 'Ramp' and 'SJTC parking' thread every single month; Unfortunately they still will get alot of comments...
I don't understand what you're so angry about.. Nobody is forcing you to read any of these threads, and so if a group of us wants to waste our time discussing ramps, or SJTC parking, or for that matter, the usefulness of having a sky, what's it to you? You've contributed nothing to this topic besides your scorn for those who wish to discuss it.
I'm not angry about anything, many of yall twenty or so 'visionaries' are angry because the ramp does exist. I'm just being a freaking realist and not a far-fetched visionary. Yall have no clue on what kind of freaking bureaucratic red tape it will take for changes to zoning, cost, etc, so I'm in the realistic camp. The land under the bridge isn't that significant concerning yardage anyway; It's like a narrow isthmus that's squeezed from Gator Bowl Blvd to WJCT and other buildings, so it's not like it will be a super huge land grab or something. So I'm not freaking angry about anything at all. I didn't even wanna take this thread this far, because I know how sensitive some of yall can be with these petty topics. So paint me as the off base unprofessional or whatever so please; Just becuase I'm outnumbered, I'm a big boy, I can handle it. IMO when the ramp gets worn to extreme deficiency, it will simply be repaired; Hopefully I can have that opinion without being 'angry' SMH.
Quote from: I-10east on January 10, 2013, 09:30:41 PM
Yall have no clue on what kind of freaking bureaucratic red tape it will take for changes to zoning, cost, etc, so I'm in the realistic camp. The land under the bridge isn't that significant concerning yardage anyway; It's like a narrow isthmus that's squeezed from Gator Bowl Blvd to WJCT and other buildings, so it's not like it will be a super huge land grab or something.
Let's see, without outing anyone, we've got at least 4-5 professional transportation planners, a couple of city planners, and at least another 4 people from the various city or transit agencies all discussing this and YOU ALONE think none of us have a clue?
Did you know, nearly 35 million people unwittingly drive over structurally deficient bridges every day in Los Angeles. In New York City, 296 people travel across a dangerous bridge every second. Roughly one of every three bridges in Pittsburgh, PA is “structurally deficient.†Guess what? Jacksonville has our share of dangerous bridges too.
Here's one:
Facts
Name: SR-228 (HART BDG.) over ST. JOHNS RIVER
Structure number: 720107
Location: US-A1 OVER ST.JOHNS RIVER
Purpose: Carries highway over highway and waterway
Route classification: Principal Arterial - Other Freeways or Expressways (Urban) [12]
Length of largest span: 1088.0 ft. [331.6 m]
Total length: 3844.3 ft. [1171.7 m]
Roadway width between curbs: 55.4 ft. [16.9 m]
Deck width edge-to-edge: 65.3 ft. [19.9 m]
Vertical clearance above deck: 18.4 ft. [5.6 m]
Vertical clearance below bridge: 140.8 ft. [42.9 m]
Owner: State Highway Agency [01]
Year built: 1967
Historic significance: Bridge is not eligible for the National Register of Historic Places [5]
Design load: MS 18 / HS 20 [5]
Number of main spans: 3
Main spans material: Steel continuous [4]
Main spans design: Truss - Thru [10]
Deck type: Concrete Cast-in-Place [1]
2010 Inspection
Average daily traffic: 43,000 [as of 2008]
Truck traffic: 14% of total traffic
Deck condition: Fair [5 out of 9]
Superstructure condition: Fair [5 out of 9]
Substructure condition: Good [7 out of 9]
Channel protection: Bank protection is in need of minor repairs. River control devices and embankment protection have a little minor damage. Banks and/or channel have minor amounts of drift. [7]
Pier/abutment protection: In place but in a deteriorated condition [3]
Scour condition: Bridge with "unknown" foundation that has not been evaluated for scour.
Operating rating: 40.9 tons [37.2 metric tons]
Inventory rating: 23.3 tons [21.2 metric tons]
Sufficiency rating: 43.8
Recommended work: Other structural work, including hydraulic replacements. [38]
Estimated cost of work: $255,000
For your entertainment, compare this with the Overland.
Facts
Name: I-95 (SR-9) over HENDRICKS/KINGS/MONTANA
Structure number: 720153
Location: I-95/HEND./KINGS/MONTANA
Purpose: Carries highway over highway
Route classification: Principal Arterial - Interstate (Urban) [11]
Length of largest span: 123.0 ft. [37.5 m]
Total length: 1407.2 ft. [428.9 m]
Roadway width between curbs: 146.0 ft. [44.5 m]
Deck width edge-to-edge: 149.9 ft. [45.7 m]
Vertical clearance above deck: 18.7 ft. [5.7 m]
Vertical clearance below bridge: 14.1 ft. [4.3 m]
Skew angle: 99°
Owner: State Highway Agency [01]
Year built: 1959
Year reconstructed: 1989
Historic significance: Bridge is not eligible for the National Register of Historic Places [5]
Design load: MS 18 / HS 20 [5]
Main span material: Steel [3]
Main span design: Girder and floorbeam system [03]
Deck type: Concrete Cast-in-Place [1]
2010 Inspection
Status: Open, no restriction [A]
Average daily traffic: 172,000 [as of 2008]
Truck traffic: 8% of total traffic
Deck condition: Poor [4 out of 9]
Superstructure condition: Fair [5 out of 9]
Substructure condition: Satisfactory [6 out of 9]
Scour condition: Bridge not over waterway. [N]
Operating rating: 55.9 tons [50.8 metric tons]
Inventory rating: 33.9 tons [30.8 metric tons]
Evaluation: Structurally deficient [1]
I just wish you would have shared with us that your a comedian before now. ;D
Good info Ock. I already said earlier that the US has tons of crumbling road infrastructure everywhere. That was a 2010 Hart Bridge inspection, so was that the most up-to-date inspection? Because if I'm not mistaken, the bridge has already had work on it since 2010, or maybe that was just the green steel superstructure area at the top. What's the latest final evaluation of the Hart (example, like SR-9 over Hendricks was/is structurally deficient)? Under 300K to fix a large scale bridge like the Hart (in 2010) doesn't sound like an overly enormous amount of money to me, to justify tearing any part of it down.
Quote from: stephendare on January 10, 2013, 01:07:29 PM
It doesnt take a professional to have a reasonable conversation, But your conversation sounds like a yowling football argument rather than a discussion. just saying.
Anyone who disagrees with you while even freaking speaking to YOU cordially (like I have earlier) is a yowling outta control maniac, gotcha Stephen, Jesus...
Quote from: Tacachale on January 10, 2013, 05:00:58 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on January 10, 2013, 09:01:40 AM
Sticking your head in the sand is an art form in this city. If reasonable discussions about the possibilities of fixing inherent issues in our community anger you so much, why do you keep reading?
Brilliant.
I think that you meant to say dull.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 10, 2013, 01:00:17 PM
Your knee jerk reaction to virtually any constructive conversation is consistently over the top.
So I'm the 'knee-jerker' that wanna build a new DT condo skyline on a narrow piece of land with very low acreage between Gator Bowl Blvd and Met Park/WJCT, hilarious. I'm not 'jerking' anywhere, I'm just saying that the ramp isn't going anywhere. How I'm I a knee-jerker? Sounds like you got the backwards. I guess that yall just totally forgot about all of that land in the Shipyards area and all of the other tons of DT land available, nope freaking keep going east to freaking DOT territory on a meager stretch of land squeezed between a road and businesses voila, makes perfect sense!!! But I'm the knee jerker here...
Keep the blitzkrieg of comments coming guys, I'm really enjoying this salvo of artillery that I'm defending off. Believe me, I wish this thread title (also SJTC parking) was in an abyss of hell never to be seen again, but if yall wanna continue the ramp chatter, I'll be happy to continue it. It's not like I don't have tons of spare time. Later friends. :)
Quote from: I-10east on January 11, 2013, 03:52:44 AM
Good info Ock. I already said earlier that the US has tons of crumbling road infrastructure everywhere. That was a 2010 Hart Bridge inspection, so was that the most up-to-date inspection? Because if I'm not mistaken, the bridge has already had work on it since 2010, or maybe that was just the green steel superstructure area at the top. What's the latest final evaluation of the Hart (example, like SR-9 over Hendricks was/is structurally deficient)? Under 300K to fix a large scale bridge like the Hart (in 2010) doesn't sound like an overly enormous amount of money to me, to justify tearing any part of it down.
Yes it was a 2010 inspection which is the most recent date with published scores. The Adams/Parker street ramps are also in a deteriorated condition. The worst part is that the Hart Bridge has NOT been inspected for scour and thus the entire foundation is in 'unknown' condition, we could literally have an ugly catastrophe right under our noses and not know it. The bridges need a complete inspection and as repair to the long ramps start to mount, we could save a bundle by simply taking that part of the roadway down. The need for these ramps has largely dried up, their carried 77,600 vehicles a day in 2000 and only 43,000 by 2010 putting it on par with Roosevelt Boulevard @ Fishweir Creek.
Here's a thought, how about we stop letting I-10 derail otherwise informative discussions?
I was wrong and many like Ock, Lake, and tons of others are right concerning the Hart Bridge Expressway. I guess that I was indeed 'derailing informative discussion' like Taca said 4 years ago, burn. :-[ It looks like the city, the Jags etc are on board with tearing down the ramp, so I'm just eating some crow. It's most likely gonna take quite awhile for the actual demo though.
Quote from: I-10east on March 15, 2017, 07:59:21 PM
I was wrong and many like Ock, Lake, and tons of others are right concerning the Hart Bridge Expressway. I guess that I was indeed 'derailing informative discussion' like Taca said 4 years ago, burn. :-[ It looks like the city, the Jags etc are on board with tearing down the ramp, so I'm just eating some crow. It's most likely gonna take quite awhile for the actual demo though.
I-10east, you are just another shining example of what I love about this forum. And thank you for your continued involvement over the years! I think most of us here have had our own plate (or two) of crow, but that is what makes us human. And the fact that you dug up a 3 year old thread just to state that you were eating that crow says a lot about your character. Kudos to you and all of the other wonderful members here that aren't shy to voice their feelings, debate respectfully, AND sometimes share a bite of the dirty bird.
Back to topic: I agree that we likely won't see that highway come down for quite some time, although it will be a glorious day when it does!
Quote from: I-10east on March 15, 2017, 07:59:21 PM
I was wrong and many like Ock, Lake, and tons of others are right concerning the Hart Bridge Expressway. I guess that I was indeed 'derailing informative discussion' like Taca said 4 years ago, burn. :-[ It looks like the city, the Jags etc are on board with tearing down the ramp, so I'm just eating some crow. It's most likely gonna take quite awhile for the actual demo though.
Dude, if I searched 10 years of posts I'm sure you'll find 1-2 things I was wrong about. No more than that though:)