I'm favoring a battery-powered open air version such as this. The battery is charged by regenerative braking and other methods. Also invites local battery manufacturers to get into the game here.
http://www.tig-m.com/
http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/PLCMTV-1.jpg
One that has a chance of actually getting built while I am still alive.
I favor traditional catenary. You keep your costs down. I also favor connecting urban neighborhoods and destinations over a downtown centric system. For ultimate success downtown should be one of several stops and not the central focus.
I know Ock won't be happy, but I think it needs to be a modern streetcar
Btw, I'm on MetroLink (St Louis LRT) right now. Beats riding the bus...
One that has actual ridership - waiting in line ridership.
Enough one liners people! Post pictures of the designs you like.
Ok, while I like traditional streetcars, I think Jacksonville needs modern streetcars that help make our city look more modern and more transit friendly. Traditional streetcars would be nice for St. Augustine though.
Ever since that BRT plan was put out, I am like thinking to myself that we will never have streetcars! >:(
Quote from: Mattius92 on August 10, 2010, 01:23:42 PM
Ok, while I like traditional streetcars, I think Jacksonville needs modern streetcars that help make our city look more modern and more transit friendly. Traditional streetcars would be nice for St. Augustine though.
I agree. I also think that a streetcar from San Marco, through DT, Riverside, Avondale to Ortega would be awesome. Of course with an option into Springfield.
We can have both since they can run on the same track. For eample, in Charlotte, heritage streetcar and LRT run on the same track.
People there are ENOUGH threads about this for opinions. He asked for pics!
http://www.designwonderland.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/DC-Streetcar-Elevation.jpg
I think that fact that it rains a lot in Florida would be enough to realize maybe an open air street car might not be the best. I agree with a more modern look.
http://www.freewebs.com/lightrailjacksonville/newnan_street%20San%20Diego%20Trolleys.jpg
This looks beautiful.
Here are a few renderings we did for an article back in 2007:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1590-water-street.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1589-newnan_street.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1587-springfield_main_street.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1586-prime_osborn.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-jul-bring-back-jacksonville-traction-the-plan
Awesome! Thanks so far.
I like the yellow one - brightens up a drab city.
I notice you guys really like the "monster sized" ones that are all enclosed also. Just an observation. Any particular reason why?
I tend to think the smaller open side versions are a little more of an attraction to people looking like a parade on wheels so to speak. But they would carry less people and without AC obviously.
One that works!
Quote from: rjp2008 on August 10, 2010, 04:12:36 PM
Awesome! Thanks so far.
I like the yellow one - brightens up a drab city.
I notice you guys really like the "monster sized" ones that are all enclosed also. Just an observation. Any particular reason why?
I tend to think the smaller open side versions are a little more of an attraction to people looking like a parade on wheels so to speak. But they would carry less people and without AC obviously.
Yeah Yellow stands out. So does red. The reason i tend to like one to be enclosed is it rains a hell of a lot here in jax....(I was born in Los Angeles so it was a shock to see soooo much rain when i first got to Florida. Second is because florida is hot most of the year. What would more people be inclined to take? A hot street car or an air conditioned private car? They should be larger. Being proactive is never a wrong. Even if a whole plan falls through...
The type of vehicle really doesn't matter, as they can all run on the same track.
For example, San Francisco has an assortment of streetcars from all over the world, including an open air car which runs in good weather.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/625133087_C9i6G-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/625143445_JouH8-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/625145978_8U9jD-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/625136884_6RrUR-L.jpg)
Yes but if Jacksonville were to ever get a streetcar i doubt with all my heart that they would be keen on investing on different types of cars. PROACTIVE
I like the idea of having streetcars back in Jacksonville. Playing devils advocate though, what would make the authorities think that these would get any more ridership than the ever-empty skyway?
Because you send them into places where people work and live like Riverside/Springfield.
makes sense. i knew the good points would come (and be in one place).
Just playing devil's advocate, what would make people think that they would not spur the economic development that buses can't? Can Jax afford to keep dropping the ball on things that bring jobs and money to the communities they serve?
I would like to see the same type of streetcar you would find in New Orleans....using overhead electric wires Or electrified from the rail. With CSX going up 40 percent for coal shipments, maybe we should still think diesel. Would be nice if JEA could shift from coal to gas powered plants....God only knows what the price of electricity will be in the coming years as a result of higher coal and fuel prices including the monopoly CSX has on shipping!!
Surprised that no one has mentioned "Solar" option, along with regenerative braking! No wires or electrified rail, self sustaining and enviormentally friendly! JTA would not know what to do about that system! We need to start somewhere people before there is no downtown to bring back! dlemore.......the majority of coal that JTA uses comes from South America...........supposedly cheaper than American coal! At least thats what I was told!
Quote from: CS Foltz on August 12, 2010, 03:02:55 PM
Surprised that no one has mentioned "Solar" option, along with regenerative braking! No wires or electrified rail, self sustaining and enviormentally friendly! JTA would not know what to do about that system! We need to start somewhere people before there is no downtown to bring back! dlemore.......the majority of coal that JTA uses comes from South America...........supposedly cheaper than American coal! At least thats what I was told!
I know Florida power has coal shipped via Norfork Southern and CSX from Virginia and JEA brokers electricity from Orlando. (not sure where JEA gets it's coal) Also, JEA has long range contracts for fuel from Venezuela.
(http://www.gomacotrolley.com/Resources/photos/idagrovephotos/idagrovetrolley1.jpg)
There is no modern counterpart to the classic "Open Bench Trolley Car"
(http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/7C39CDD9-66DF-4F1B-8DE5-CE7F6908240A/LW003475.jpg)
Another Open Bench Car, this one just for the educational value. Back in 1980-85 when we had a Streetcar vs Skyway going on behind the scenes JTA hauled out their experts to go on the record: "Streetcars MUST operate in streets," "Streetcars can't stop on wet pavement," "Streetcars are slow," and my favorite one - "Streetcars can't climb (over a bridge for example)... NONE OF WHICH WERE TRUE. BTW, those TV scenes of endless nighttime lights in Los Angeles are taken from roughly the same location today, all that beautiful green valley in the distance? CONCRETE and ASPHALT.
(http://www.wichitaphotos.net/graphics/wpl_wpl307.jpg)
This is the educational photo that nobody expected, YES GERTRUDE THAT IS A FREIGHT CAR COUPLED ON THE REAR OF THIS "Trolley" (Arkansas Valley Interurban, Wichita KS)
Solar power, wind power, methane generation, tidal turbines and hydro power (think Rodman Dam for example) are all viable options. Southern California already gets a good chunk of it's power from the wind and sun, in fact the "farms" are just below my place in Landers, down the grade toward Palm Desert and Palm Springs. Last time I checked Metrolink and Amtrak were building a station at the bottom of the mountain! Yippieee!
JEA does have coal imports from Venezuela, but it seems to be, shall we say, less attractive? Next door in Colombia there is better (read cleaner) coal and Jacksonville is about to open one of the largest terminals for coal imports in the South on Talleyrand. Colombian coal is priced about the same as Appliachian coal, but cleaner, and JEA as well as FP, FPL, JEA, AL etc. are watching: QuoteThe bituminous coal to be imported from Colombia is cleaner, or has a lower sulphur content, than the coal from the Appalachia region, Scholl said. The imported coal is similar to the costlier and cleaner coal from the Powder River Basin region.
Read more: Keystone preparing to import South American coal to Jacksonville - Jacksonville Business Journal
Powering from the track would be OUT OF THE QUESTION, as streetcars (and our Skyway) normally run off of 600 volt DC current. 600 volts? That's enough power to turn a human into a french fry in the blink of an eye. In the old cars there was typically a "lightning arrester" toggle above the motorman's head, the power was so strong that even the switch would sometimes become somewhat live, especially when wet. New motormen are taught to turn it on and off with a quick fist using the back side of your hand.
I realize many love the modern streetcars, the trouble is, if we go 100% modern then we gain a great transportation mode and development tool. If we go with "Heritage Streetcars" with heat and AC we gain a great transportation mode, development tool, AND TOURIST ATTRACTION worth about 500,000 visitors per
year. Toss in the FACT that I can deliver two vintage streetcars of American Design, completely rebuilt to our standards (in Australia), detailed, with supply of parts and tech support, FOB (DELIVERED) at Jaxport for less money then a modern streetcar's front truck!
Add to the transit concept and head toward something Jacksonville chased away when the last movie company packed their bags and headed for Hollywood, T O U R I S T S. HOW? Simple, make the streetcar line a LIVING MUSEUM, along with a car barn designed for self guided visitor tools, museum exhibit area, gift shop, snack bar etc. Rather then depend on fickle Jacksonville commuters, lets get a crowd coming to town just to ride the transit, photograph the transit and leave with a Jacksonville Traction tee shirt and coffee mug.
The MJ team is correct that vintage, heritage reproductions, and modern streetcars can all use LRT (Light Rail Transit) track, though not all LRT vehicles can use streetcar track as it's generally lighter construction and a full size modern LRV is too damn heavy. So in a city that springs for LRT track, and you could see a combination of various types of streetcars, LRV's, vintage interurban cars, freight "motors" pulling freight cars, etc... In a city that builds streetcar track, you'll see... wait for it... here it comes... STREETCARS. OCKLAWAHA
Whatever. As long as it runs on rails, electricity and is air-conditioned.
I a huge fan of all things retro, vintage, antique, classic etc. Of all the pictures thus far I'm thinking this is my favorite. Not too crazy retro, still holds use in all weather, has (or appears to have) AC. I somewhat agree with the statements that a modern car needs to be applied to the "modern" downtown but I'd rather see some historic buildings be brought back to life to match my opinion of how the cars should look... realistic? No, haha.
Quote from: Lunican on August 10, 2010, 04:49:03 PM
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/625143445_JouH8-L.jpg)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TGXbp7M47JI/AAAAAAAAC6U/RyehoNrFm48/s800/PCC.jpg)
THE INTREPID PCC CAR
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TGXuCu6Ju9I/AAAAAAAAC7U/geB1JTWBq9I/s800/PCC_Old%27s%20in%20orbit.jpg)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TGXaiuBWejI/AAAAAAAAC6Q/HYVXzQgh3Sg/s288/BRT%20MAX.jpg)(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TGXg9bL7otI/AAAAAAAAC7I/wiw4i7c6bGU/s288/PCC%201938%20model%20streetcar.jpg)
Nothing like the original!
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TGXbqLYRM5I/AAAAAAAAC6g/uIDU3DXCYgw/s800/PCC%20today.jpg)
GUESS Which one is older? Guess which one will still be in service when your children are grown?
That's a pretty sweet shot of a classic PCC car 904Scars. Ever wonder where JTA came up with the acronym PCT for the Potato-Chip-Truck/Trolley things? THIS IS IT, the classic Art-Deco Presidents Conference Committee or PCC streetcar.
Interesting little story goes along with the PCC. In the waning years of the first great streetcar era National City Lines (GM, Firestone, Goodyear, Phillips, Greyhound, Standard Oil and White Trucks) were well along in crushing the life out of some 75 electric railroad properties. National City, and it's various subsidiary companies would buy out the streetcars under the pretense of making money by "completely modernizing the system with new FLEXIBLE motor buses."
In a 11Th hour attempt to stem the stampede, the presidents of the remaining streetcar and interurban lines appointed a committee that met in a conference with the task of designing a car that was not only as good as the most modern bus, but even better, faster, quieter etc. Remember the new streetcar named after the Presidents Conference Committee was conceived in the mid 1930's, the height of the Great Depression. For many cash strapped electric railroads it was too little, too late. For many survivors the PCC Car would indeed save them from the brink and in most cases roll right through the 1970's and not a few right into 2010.
Ever hear about "The Little Train That Could"? If you have it could well have been a PCC Car that they had in mind.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ioCJ2kqZyyU/SMJl12qG_KI/AAAAAAAABgc/y7WSh9vdy9o/s400/takethebus.jpg)
Imagine a city covered in BRT!
OCKLAWAHA
Here's one I ran across in Kansas City last Sunday.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/P1380426/968121194_DXkn2-M.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4050/4345068133_0fd59f0ac7.jpg)
Thurber, TX
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1172/528022865_f6a996569d.jpg)
Mineral Wells, TX
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3030/2300855913_cef10ff53d.jpg)
Van Alstyne,TX
Streetcars named Desire.....