Via Times Union
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-07-29/story/bill-moves-shipyards-closure-closer (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-07-29/story/bill-moves-shipyards-closure-closer)
QuoteBy Matt Galnor
Jacksonville has long planned on getting 44 acres of riverfront property once the twice-failed Shipyards project emerges from bankruptcy court.
A bill filed in the City Council this week would legally get the city in line to take over the property, likely in August or September.
The bill would allow the city to assume contracts developers LandMar and NorthBank LLC had for the property, including the stormwater and drainage permits needed if the property would have been developed, said Deputy General Counsel John Germany, who is handling the bankruptcy case.
The bankruptcy plan for Crescent Resources, LandMar's parent company, was approved by federal courts in June. Once the council passes this bill, the city should get the deeds to the property in a couple of weeks, Germany said.
The council is expected to vote on the bill next month.
The project dates back a decade, when original developers TriLegacy Group planned an $860 million project with condos, hotels and boat slips.
Work stalled, the city accused TriLegacy of misusing the money, but the company was cleared of criminal wrongdoing by state and federal grand juries.
The city agreed in 2005 to have LandMar develop the property and make public improvements on the land. When the housing market collapsed in 2008, Crescent filed for bankruptcy.
I just don't see the economic viability of a major ship repair business back downtown.
Most of those types of companies are now based overseas.
We have Acme that does mostly private vessels, but without government ships I don't think even North Florida Shipyards and Atlantic Marine would be viable here.
What is your basis for having the shipyards site open back up as shipyards?
That public pier intrigues me so much. I stare at it Saturday and Sunday mornings on my bikerides downtown.
I am also intrigued about the Tampa project you guys posted a few weeks ago whereas their TOD-type development project was broken down into smaller parcels with multiple developers. Can't recall the name offhand..
Quote from: fieldafm on July 29, 2010, 10:09:51 AM
I just don't see the economic viability of a major ship repair business back downtown.
Most of those types of companies are now based overseas.
We have Acme that does mostly private vessels, but without government ships I don't think even North Florida Shipyards and Atlantic Marine would be viable here.
What is your basis for having the shipyards site open back up as shipyards?
That public pier intrigues me so much. I stare at it Saturday and Sunday mornings on my bikerides downtown.
I am also intrigued about the Tampa project you guys posted a few weeks ago whereas their TOD-type development project was broken down into smaller parcels with multiple developers. Can't recall the name offhand..
I never noticed until now, but I've been in Tampa the last few days and they have very active shipyards downtown that contribute to their local economy. Also very neat to look at. I'm about to go tour a WWII liberty ship for fun, despite all the people who argued that nobody would want to see the Charles F. Adams if it were in Jacksonville. Believe it or not museum ships are a big tourist draw.
But I think what Stephen is envisioning is probably a re-born waterfront more of a commercial vs. industrial nature.
Yeah; living in West Central Florida and traveling to Tampa at least once a week, Tampa does seem to have a busy, working and successful industrialized waterfront shipyard near downtown. Don't know what Jax is so scared of. It appears that the leaders in Jax have no initiative, aggressiveness or fortitude for anything "development wise," especially for the St. John's River Waterfront and the old Shipyards district. The Riverwalk is good, but there needs to be much more; Jax seems to just not want to utilize the St. Johns in a way that will benefit the City and downtown. Old Navy Ships, or recently retired Navy ships are in fact a "good" tourist draw...I wouldn't say great but it is good for a City with naval, maritime and a seafaring history.
"HU"
The port funtions in Tampa are across Garison Channel from Channelside and over a mile from the core of downtown....siumilar to the port function we ahve near the stadium.
Quote from: fieldafm on July 29, 2010, 10:09:51 AM
I just don't see the economic viability of a major ship repair business back downtown.
Most of those types of companies are now based overseas.
We have Acme that does mostly private vessels, but without government ships I don't think even North Florida Shipyards and Atlantic Marine would be viable here.
What is your basis for having the shipyards site open back up as shipyards?
It's something we're still fleshing out but our discussion was more about a "working waterfront" that included a mix of public space, seafood restaurants, markets and spots where the local commercial fishing industry could possibly operate and sell their goods wholesale. Something along the lines of a "fisherman's wharf" type of atmosphere that would benefit/expose local industry, include public spaces (like a pier) and promote local culture.
Quote
The port funtions in Tampa are across Garison Channel from Channelside and over a mile from the core of downtown....siumilar to the port function we ahve near the stadium.
Agreed, if the St Johns didn't wind around like it does, we're no different than Tampa in that sense.
QuoteIt's something we're still fleshing out but our discussion was more about a "working waterfront" that included a mix of public space, seafood restaurants, markets and spots where the local commercial fishing industry could possibly operate and sell their goods wholesale. Something along the lines of a "fisherman's wharf" type of atmosphere that would benefit/expose local industry, include public spaces (like a pier) and promote local culture.
Interesting.
One night when I couldn't sleep I did make a rendering of what I thought would be a nice representation of what the public pier could look like.
Although, it certainly would increase fuel costs for the fisherman/shrimpers... if JaxPort ultimately decides on a Mayport-based cruise terminal, this space could potentially be an alternative solution to the fisheries in Mayport that would tie in to your fisherman wharf-type ideas, no?
Quote from: thelakelander on July 29, 2010, 11:22:44 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on July 29, 2010, 10:09:51 AM
I just don't see the economic viability of a major ship repair business back downtown.
Most of those types of companies are now based overseas.
We have Acme that does mostly private vessels, but without government ships I don't think even North Florida Shipyards and Atlantic Marine would be viable here.
What is your basis for having the shipyards site open back up as shipyards?
It's something we're still fleshing out but our discussion was more about a "working waterfront" that included a mix of public space, seafood restaurants, markets and spots where the local commercial fishing industry could possibly operate and sell their goods wholesale. Something along the lines of a "fisherman's wharf" type of atmosphere that would benefit/expose local industry, include public spaces (like a pier) and promote local culture.
I think this is a fantastic idea. Now if only there was some way to pick up the Landing and rotate it 180 degrees...
^Might be an easier feat than getting the City to sell the land underneath to Sleiman so he will remodel it and open it up to Laura St.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TFHR84zZKbI/AAAAAAAAC2Y/Dla1OBhAlgo/s800/Kenosha%20waterfront%20streetcar.jpg)
The boats don't all go to sea, a commercial fishing industry exists on the river, and the crabbers are quite a vibrant local industry with boats in almost every marina from Mayport to Lake Harney. THESE are the boats and fishermen I would target + deep sea charters which could charge extra for the travel miles to the mouth of the river. Commercial shrimpers and other fishery industry boats on the sea would scoff at the costs of such a thing. (http://www.owainandalvina.com/images/cruisepictures_images/011_sydney_monorail_large.jpg)
JUST ADD SKYWAY and tie in STREETCAR!OCKLAWAHA
QuoteThe boats don't all go to sea, a commercial fishing industry exists on the river, and the crabbers are quite a vibrant local industry with boats in almost every marina from Mayport to Lake Harney. THESE are the boats and fishermen I would target
We were thinking along those lines. For example, a good portion of the river, immediately south of the Fuller Warren, is loaded with commercial crab traps. One would think downtown would also be a viable option for the pleasure boating industry (ex. take a drive down Lake Shore Blvd, along the Ortega River), assuming the right facilities were made available there. Again, we were just brainstorming so a lot more research and exploration into the topic will be needed.
I guess I don't quite understand the total vision as you describe it... I thought I did, but once you started to focus on St Johns crabs(which are abundant, and whenever I visit friends in California they all want me to bring Jacksonville crabs with me) instead of the abundance of fresh grouper, snapper, trigger, oysters, and shrimp off our coast I kinda got confused.
Pleased to see these discussions swing away from visions of giant retail and housing.
The past ten years have proven a sacred catastrophe for us- the ShipYards can now be considered in a different era and outlook.
Hopefully more of an active public open space with wharves,perhaps meander some shore line, and semi working waterfront .(Not large scale water depndent vessel service,haul outs)
I vote for a convention center with a hotel on top or connected. Expand the skyway to go into/through it. It would be really awesome if we had a huge convention center there (is there enough room for "huge?) all along the water.
I would love to see a convention center there as well. I really think the skyway should go through there and to the sports complex district.
Quote from: coredumped on July 29, 2010, 05:17:45 PM
I vote for a convention center with a hotel on top or connected. Expand the skyway to go into/through it. It would be really awesome if we had a huge convention center there (is there enough room for "huge?) all along the water.
I, too, would love to see the Skyway expanded through a downtown hotel and out to the sports complex. It would add ridership and the unique architectural feature would add to the city's identity
Good idea! But we got to get the property back first............I am to the point I will believe it when I see it! I don't trust City Hall any further than I can throw it!
Two historic ships - one sailship and another ww ii era - would be fantastic, but wouldn't generate much revenue. What good is maritime museum that is a building?? Tourists would come to see a terrific tall masted beaut I believe - imagine that on the skyline!
A fisher mans market makes complete sense, also. Would it entice people away from their local publix? What has always struck me as odd about the river city is the complete lack of world class, well highlighted seafood joints downtown. I would almost want to entice an Asian company (perhaps Hanjin deal ineterests them) or some kind of seafood cooking school that really knows how to crank out some mean sushi, lobster, clams, etc with that Japanese flavor. The reason suburbanites would go downtown would be to taste the diverse flavor such a market has to offer. Also, get in touch with all those Louisiana shrimpers affected by the spill a and get their butts up here.
Quote from: fieldafm on July 29, 2010, 03:25:21 PM
I guess I don't quite understand the total vision as you describe it... I thought I did, but once you started to focus on St Johns crabs(which are abundant, and whenever I visit friends in California they all want me to bring Jacksonville crabs with me) instead of the abundance of fresh grouper, snapper, trigger, oysters, and shrimp off our coast I kinda got confused.
Right now, you can't get any in downtown, which is insane considering our natural landscape and heritage. So I would think all would be welcome and encouraged to participate in such a setting. While throwing ideas over the phone with Stephen the other day, I believe what we had in mind was a site containing a wide variety of maritime related uses integrated with the public realm.
I was on the river south of the Buckman not long ago. I was surprised that there seemed to be quite a bit fewer crab traps than I recalled in the past. I think commercial crabbers may be dying breed. Not many left. Especially with water access drying up and maybe given the health, or lack thereof, of the river. Who wants to eat crabs living off dying fish due to poisonous algae and Georgia Pacific dioxins? Yuuuuck!
And, once again, make a play for a Bay Street streetcar and give up on the Skyway toy saving Downtown Jax. Ain't going to happen.
Having any waterfront anything would require cleaning up the St Johns! A TU article the other day indicated that by the time the river gets to Jacksonville, it is allready polluted. Granted with all of the runoff containing, who the heck knows what, and algea blooms accuring on a regular basis, the river is not in the best of health to start with so........lets take more water upstream out! I don't see anyone in Orlando worrying about the rivers health and they are more concerned about having water to put on their lawns! Waterfront attractions are a good idea, but river needs work big time!
These ideas sound great! If we could get the skyway along the shipyards, it would make sense to go on to Everbank Field. This would be true connectivity.
MOONEYHAN ENTERTAINMENT COMPLEX!!! DO IT!
It would take 4 or 5 more studies before anything could even be talked about! Honest! I wonder what those are gonna cost us?
Quote from: rjp2008 on July 29, 2010, 06:19:56 PM
Two historic ships - one sailship and another ww ii era - would be fantastic, but wouldn't generate much revenue. What good is maritime museum that is a building?? Tourists would come to see a terrific tall masted beaut I believe - imagine that on the skyline!
A fisher mans market makes complete sense, also. Would it entice people away from their local publix? What has always struck me as odd about the river city is the complete lack of world class, well highlighted seafood joints downtown. I would almost want to entice an Asian company (perhaps Hanjin deal ineterests them) or some kind of seafood cooking school that really knows how to crank out some mean sushi, lobster, clams, etc with that Japanese flavor. The reason suburbanites would go downtown would be to taste the diverse flavor such a market has to offer. Also, get in touch with all those Louisiana shrimpers affected by the spill a and get their butts up here.
What makes you think a ship museum or two ships for that matter would not become a major attraction? Did you know that the USS Missouri for example is among the top 10 attractions in Hawaii. The museum - ship has accounted for 12% of the entire state's tourism since 1998. In July of 2009 she had just shy of 50,000 visitors, at $20.00 each.
By the way boys, at last check both the BATTLESHIP IOWA and the aircraft carrier INDEPENDENCE were both available for museum purposes.
Japanese seafood? Okay, maybe for some of you but frankly being a unreconstructed Confederate, I would much rather have local dishes. If I want to eat a raw dead fish, 6 mile creek is in back of my house!OCKLAWAHA
Just for the sake of arguement...........if the $kyway were extended, it went through a Hotel situated along its route and happen to continue on to the Stadium................makes sense to me! That possible route could also be running through the Ship Yards property at ground level and then elevate to reach the Stadium end. Couple of different way to do it...........one possible obstacle would be funding! A special tax district for the route or bonds ............either way, we must bring the issue to a boil or like usual, nothing will happen! If we can't get rail into operation (thanks JTA!) This maybe an option!
The problem would be that we can't support another major hotel. Just a few months ago, even the Hyatt (that we subsidized significantly to bring in) was behind on their mortgage payments. As for the skyway extension to the stadium, from a financial standpoint, it would seem to me that we would be better off initially investing in mass transit that extends to areas outside of the downtown district. This way, once some form of mass transit is extended to the stadium, the entire downtown network could be feed with transit riders who won't have to fight miles congestion into downtown, only to park in a garage and ride the skyway or a streetcar for the last few hundred feet.
lake I have no choice but to agree! Excluding JTA's picture of mass transit would be a good first step! Until we have a variant of rail, in any form, we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past! I keep trying to envision an intermodal system that uses what we have, before we start branching out. With a downtown network in place, branching out into the burbs would be the next step, but we have to start somewhere! Downtown is the reasonable point of start and for the size considered should not be that expensive! The $12 Million discussed for the BRT system should have been the start, but what do I know!
Ron Littlepage in today's T-U
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400564/ron-littlepage/2010-07-31/jacksonville%E2%80%99s-losses%E2%80%99-shipyards-oft-repeated-myth
The blog sounds like fluff to me. Bankrupt LandMar owes one gazilllion dollars. There doesn't sound like much real money coming to the city from that.
Improvements made to the property while nice (and quite costly), still do not increase the value of the property to the level of debt.
Fuzzy math?
This is why it is so damn important to FINISH what we start. Had the Skyway followed it's plan we wouldn't be having this conversation today. In the bigger picture of the unfinished monorail, the shipyards would probably be developed already. Going through a hotel or a Convention Center would kick the Skyway into high gear.
When Streetcar starts, it very much needs to go ALL THE WAY to Park and King at a minimum. I still feel it foolish to duplicate ANY PART of the original planned Skyway route with Streetcar. This does not mean that both systems could serve the same end points for example, Shand's, Blue Cross/Fidelity/Everbank, Stadium/Randolph or even San Marco - Atlantic at the FEC RR. But there are hundreds of combination's of streets and routes that each system could take.
This is my goal in my original figure "8" downtown system, with the "8" being available for either two independent loops, or as a whole circulatory route. The features are thus:
Water-Independence, COVERED 100%
Newnan, COVERED Independence - 1st. (Hubbard)
Beaver east of Newnan, COVERED including private right of way and access to Gateway Mall.
Randolph, COVERED Beaver to Duval
Duval, COVERED Randolph to Lee INCLUDES Cathedral district, City Hall, Hemming Plaza, Federal Court House, New Court House.
LEE COVERED Duval to Water Street
With this core it would be easy to expand in any direction.
OCKLAWAHA
I understand your ire as well as the figure 8 concept Ock! My idea was clover leaf but I bow to your superior knowledge!! Either way, as an "Intermodal Mass Transit System" all aspects of mass transit, including foot and bike, should be addressed, which is why I take exception to the proposed BRT escapade! BRT is localized, following Skyway route and its path. Nothing has been done to increase ridership on either system and here we go again.......off half cocked! Both will fail in their present mode or we will have to subsidize even further than what we do now. JTA seems to have bus, just as good as rail, foremost in their minds and the current bus system is severly lacking in simple things such as "Shelters", decent headways that possible riders could use to trip plan and pollution spewing machinery that does air quality no good what so ever! We have bus stops, that consist of a pole with a sign and plenty of places bus's can not even get off of the road to allow traffic to pass! Something is wrong here and JTA just does not see it!
Quote from: thelakelander on August 01, 2010, 07:54:32 AM
As for the skyway extension to the stadium, from a financial standpoint, it would seem to me that we would be better off initially investing in mass transit that extends to areas outside of the downtown district. This way, once some form of mass transit is extended to the stadium, the entire downtown network could be feed with transit riders who won't have to fight miles congestion into downtown, only to park in a garage and ride the skyway or a streetcar for the last few hundred feet.
Lake, I don't want to make this into another Skyway discussion, but I can't help but note that I have made this same point about one of the reasons the Skyway is lacking. Glad to see you post similar feelings here. For more on the Skyway, I refer interested parties to see both sides of the discussion on MJ threads devoted to it elsewhere.
The bill is 2010-604 and it will be in RCD Monday and Finance Tues.Also there will be a public hearing. Everyone should be calling the Mayor and city council members and telling them to attach an amendment that when this comes to the council vote that the 680' PUBLIC PIER will be separate from the 44 acre land. Keep score on how they vote.
If not the Public Trust in this community will continue to be completely destroyed. Shipyards was a disaster. Everyone needs to remember that out of the 44 acres 16 acres was to be Public Space. When Landmar took over the 16 acres of Public Space was reduced to 8 acres. The walkable area is primarily the Public Space. Landmar also had legislatively included in the deal to be able to shut down the 8 acres of walkable Public Space 12 times during the coarse of the year. Example Florida Georgia. Would that have been a good deal for the Public? NO. Absolutely not. But that was the plan. Here's another-Under Landmar 150 slip marina without one slip for the Public. That was the plan.
We are getting this entire 44 acre site back. Not skill just dumb luck. What is the plan?
One option is to ask the council to include an amendment that when approved that the 680' PROMISED PUBLIC PIER can be separate and move forward for the people of Jacksonville as a usable structure for economic opportunity and Public Access.
In a few months Jacksonville will be hosting a River Summit. Can you imagine our new slogan "VISIT JACKSONVILLE where we will continue to restrict your access to the St. Johns River our American Heritage River especially in our Downtown Jacksonville Overlay Zoning District 2003-627".
Put that on a bus shelter.
Good idea, Noone. I actually think the entire property should be a public riverfront park and large gathering venue as stated on another MJ thread devoted to this subject at: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4434.0.html
However, the pier you refer to is a good start.
stjr............Mr Noone's idea covers not only the pier area, but utilizing shipping containers for various shops! The shipping container idea is pretty good, when you consider how they can be set up, solar power and the like! He has a supplier lined up at no cost, containers being modular could be stackable and poof.....instant attraction!City is looking for revenue enhancement, here is their chance!