Metro Jacksonville

Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Project Moving Forward

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/945611205_T6gGy-X2.jpg)

As JTA moves forward with implementing Bus Rapid Transit in downtown, Metro Jacksonville takes a look at the proposed shelter designs.


Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jul-downtown-bus-rapid-transit-project-moving-forward

ok

What's the point?  Seems like just a normal bus route with a few small sections of dedicated lane.  Looks like a big waste of money to me, how does that cost 12mil?  And it basically coversthe same route as the skyway?  Stupid.  No one wants to ride a bus, they stink, they're noisy.

It cost $12 million because they are literally rebuilding streets, like Broad and Jefferson.  Unfortunately, it appears that they still won't be adding bicycle lanes even after spending millions on street reconstruction.

This is ridiculous.  This route connects no-where to no-where.  If there was high demand for ridership on these streets then the Skyway would be busting at the seems.  It seems that for $12 million, Smart Starts would also fund a streetcar line which would get us more bang for our buck and create more private investment along its path.  BRT in our downtown isn't going to create any economic growth.  I think JTA has really lost all common sense.

Let me first preface this by saying I'm not defending JTA....but...

This is the just start of the system....eventually it will connect with the rest of the BRT line...in the meantime, many of the local buses that circulate through downtown will be re-routed to these streets.

$12 million pays for the following:

1. Dedicated lanes in some places (restriping)
2. New streetscape/sidewalks (Broad & Jefferson sure need it)
3. Shelters (I'm thinking they will put 2-3 of these at each stop)
4. Signal pre-emption/priority (extends the green time so buses can go through)

As to the streetcar question, FTA's small starts program is a subset of the New Starts program...and up until last month, streetcars could not be funded using this money....furthermore, environmental studies are required to be complete to get design and construction money....the downtown BRT studies have been completed.

REALLY?!?!?!?! what is the point of wasting this much money for something not need or wanted!!!!?!?!?! The people have spoken time and time again. WE WANT RAILS! not buses. No one uses the SKYWAY because it goes nowhere! Invest on extending that. Streetcars? improve the trolley system or something. these bus improvements are going no where. i'm sorry does Jacksonville not know how to grow effectively? "i'm jacksonville and i am going to invest millions of money on adding one highway lane at a time so that by the time we finish the project will have been outdated." The people who run the city are pathetic. It's time for the people to get to work and the stuff done that's needed and wanted!

Quote from: stephendare on July 27, 2010, 08:12:59 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 27, 2010, 08:11:18 AM
Let me first preface this by saying I'm not defending JTA....but...

This is the just start of the system....eventually it will connect with the rest of the BRT line...in the meantime, many of the local buses that circulate through downtown will be re-routed to these streets.

$12 million pays for the following:

1. Dedicated lanes in some places (restriping)
2. New streetscape/sidewalks (Broad & Jefferson sure need it)
3. Shelters (I'm thinking they will put 2-3 of these at each stop)
4. Signal pre-emption/priority (extends the green time so buses can go through)

In other words you are defending JTA

nope...just explaining reality

The reality is that JTA keeps proving the same point; that the only thing they can do right is waste money.

Are the new dedicated bus lanes on Blanding eventually going to be tied into this system?

Also, this would have been a great opportunity to convert some of the one ways to two way streets since they were repainting stripes anyways. You may have to buy a few few new signals, but it'd be cheaper to do it with a project like this than going back later and doing it.

Not to piss in the BRT punch bowl but here is what Little Rock, Arkansas got for $20.5 million:

2.5 miles of real streetcar lines.  

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454391812_Uq2S9-M.jpg)
http://www.fortworthgov.com/uploadedFiles/Planning_and_Development/Miscellaneous_(template)/Peer%20City%20Handout%20for%20distribution.pdf

1. In Jax, 2.2 miles gets you from the Prime Osborn (skyway connection) to Riverside's Park & King District.

2. $20.5 million/2.5 miles (Little Rock's cost to implement and initial system length) = $8.2 million/mile

3. $12 million (JTA DT BRT cost)/$20.5 million (Little Rock's DT streetcar cost) = 0.585

4. 59% of 2.5 miles = 1.48 miles of service

5. Prime Osborn (DT Skyway connection) to Margaret St (Five Points) = 1.48 miles in length

6. $12 million of no-frills streetcar = fixed mass transit connection between DT and Five Points.

So for roughly the same price as this initial DT BRT line that will parallel the skyway and won't spur economic development, you could have a no-frills streetcar line connecting the skyway and downtown with Five Points and stimulating market rate urban infill development in Brooklyn at the same time.  As for the buses, one could easily reroute them along the proposed route now with minimal expense.  

Since there is no traffic congestion along the BRT route, there's no immediate need to mess with the signals, rebuild streets or restrip lines.  So for roughly the same costs, we could implement the DT BRT route and establish a streetcar connection between DT and Five Points, providing an economic boost to a distressed urban neighborhood in the process.  This stuff really makes one think that we're getting the short end of the stick.

Just some food for thought when you're out talking to 2011 Mayoral candidates about potential issues to rally around.

Quote from: stephendare on July 27, 2010, 08:24:05 AM
If by 'reality' you mean a potential city wide system that hasnt been built yet, but which will cost a billion dollars if implemented at the exclusion of rail, then we do not share the same definition of reality.

I see no reason to change the word from 'defend.'  but thanks for the explanation of the money breakdown. ;)

without getting in another argument, JTA's current BRT plan is $12 million for the downtown portion....they also are planning about 70 miles of radial lines (southeast, east, north, southwest, and south) at about $2.5 million/mile (includes design, permitting and construction)....so really we're talking about $175 million.

The $1 billion plan got scrapped three yeas ago

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454391951_s6Q7X-M.jpg)

http://www.fortworthgov.com/uploadedFiles/Planning_and_Development/Miscellaneous_(template)/Peer%20City%20Handout%20for%20distribution.pdf

Btw, according to the linked study, $400 million in TOD and 600 residential units had been constructed within 2 blocks of Little Rock's streetcar alignment between 2004 (the year it opened) and 2008.  Needless to say, since then, their streetcar line has been expanded and there are plans to expand it again.

Little Rock River Rail Streetcar - Before: 2001, After: 2010
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/902830344_vPFzB-M.jpg)

Wake up Jacksonville.  2011 is right around the corner!

By the way, as a part of JTA's service changes for September 2010, the L8 route will be modified to the proposed BRT North Corridor alignment with 15 minute headways.

Proposed BRT North Corridor Route
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7841-brt-north-corridor-a.jpg)

This should give us a good look at how popular such a service will be with choice riders along this corridor before sinking millions into rebuilding streets, striping lines and messing with traffic signals.

Question 1) BRT as in the stupid looking linked buses? Or BRT as in, less-than-50-minute headways on normal buses?

Question 2) How do we get the people with a severe lack of vision, interest, or common sense out of the JTA?  Are they not appointed anyway?

Question 3) What's it going to matter when 2011 comes around, if no mayoral candidate is saying a damn thing about mass transit that doesn't involve buses?

Answer 1) BRT as in stupid looking buses and frequent headways.

Answer 2) Start at the top and recycle down.  Appoint a new board with a real understanding and background in transportation planning and land use integration.  Since the mayor gets to appoint someone, there should be an opportunity to add some new blood and ideas in the upcoming years. 

Answer 3) It won't if we don't speak up and force it to become a platform issue in 2011.  Now is the time to rally around these ideas and voice them publicly to set the tone down the stretch.

So we are spending $12 million to lift the Skyway off the rails and drop it on the ground..? Perfect. stjr should be pleased.  This is ridiculous.  All this does is duplicate a system that works fine, just 20 feet overhead.  In my opinion, this is as bad as the hot dog stands on the Main Street Bridge.

Okay boys and girls, who wants to pull a protest permit and we'll stand at city hall one day next month and blast the hell out of this waste of money.

Signs?

Someone get us some "NO BRT", "NO JTA OPERATED TRANSIT", "NO BUS RAPID TRANSIT", "JACKSONVILLE DEMANDS RAIL", "WE WANT STREETCARS", "STREETCAR NOW!"

Tee shirts? Let's meet em at the palace!


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on July 27, 2010, 10:07:41 AM
For 12 million dollars of the BRT, how much trolley action could we get?

Using Little Rock's numbers, $12 million would get you from the Prime Osborn to Five Points.  Since we already have the skyway, you would be able to travel between FCCJ/Rosa Parks and the Southbank's Kings Avenue to Five Points without the use of a car or bus. 

I nominate thelakelander for special mayoral task force on mass transit.

it is mind boggling how all of the planning divisions and infrastructure providers can't get together and design a city center that is accretive to economic development. that and I understand that Jacksonville "missed the bus," or trolley, as it were, for stimulus money for public transportation due to lack of a sustainable plan for improvement...I'm sure I'll be linked to a story as I haven't been able to read MJAX over the past few months...

Don't look now JTA but I saw this last Friday!

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/GhostofCLE.jpg)

OCKLAWAHA

The only nice thing about this plan are the new bus shelters.  I agree you don't need dedicated lanes since there is no traffic in this area already.  If this route is tied into the airport, the beach, or Orange Park then I would agree with it, but as of now it makes no sense!

It's tied into the airport in that this "route" (the DT segment) will be driven on by most of the buses coming in and out of downtown before they branch off on various local streets to access various neighborhoods and areas of town. 

According to a map the BRT terminates at a Wal-Mart, not JIA.

I asked JTA why they did this and they said they did the route based on ridership and that it could possibly be extended to JTA in the future.  I told them they needed more destinations to encourage ridership.  They don't get it.

Less Downtown workers now to use BRT or commuter rail. It's official now. Adecco is leaving.

http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-07-27/story/adecco-moving-jacksonvilles-southside

Such an outrage. Why isn't our chamber or City Hall doing a better job of being champion DT for jobs? Where the heck is any civic pride from these businesses? To me much more of a blow for downtown that this brt plan.

Quote from: stephendare on July 27, 2010, 10:42:05 AM

Quote from: TheProfessor on July 27, 2010, 10:40:26 AM
According to a map the BRT terminates at a Wal-Mart, not JIA.

Close enough for JTA.  Travellers shouldnt resent walking so much.  If you ask TUFSU, he would suggest additionally installing meters and charging them for storing their luggage while they find the Walmart.

Just your luck, they'd finally be the 'smart' meters to boot.

Quote from: TheProfessor on July 27, 2010, 10:40:26 AM
According to a map the BRT terminates at a Wal-Mart, not JIA.

This BRT plan isn't a fixed system.  Its a network of roads that the majority of city buses will use at some point along their route to where ever they are going.  For example, the CT3 is the bus that takes you to the airport.  It will use these BRT lanes to get through downtown before getting off the BRT "spine" to hop back on other streets.

CT3 route
(http://www.jtafla.com/Graphics/Schedules/BusSchedules/Interliner/CT3_map.jpg)
The CT3 route will most likely use these proposed BRT lanes between stops C and E on its route map.

In my opinion (which ain't worth much), this is a waste.  If the current transportation system doesn't garner optimum ridership, or is not successful and doesn't really go "nowhere," what makes anyone think that this will work?  Make the current transportation system successful first to the point of increased and optimum ridership, which MIGHT justify adding on a Rapid Transit System (if needed).  Again, my opinion...no justification at present for this type of system; ridership nor destinations do not support or justify that need right now.

"HU"

Quote from: TheProfessor on July 27, 2010, 10:44:46 AM
I asked JTA why they did this and they said they did the route based on ridership and that it could possibly be extended to JTA in the future.  I told them they needed more destinations to encourage ridership.  They don't get it.

No clue do they have.  I'll bet it's someone with a Master's Degree or P.H.D., that think they know it all, but in the process are not thinking, that came up with this genius idea.  "Let's build a rapid transit system so that people can hop on it and ride it!" Vague thinking.  I have a degree also but not a Masters or P.H.D., and, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to assess, think, and know that you first need a reason or justification for something before you build it.  Just because you build it doesn't mean people will ride it.  Where's destinations?  People? Restaurants? Night Clubs? or Businesses along these proposed routes that will support and/or justify ridership?  Geesh!!!!!!!

"HU"

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Bus-Shelter-Advertising/JTA-Bus-Shelter-Advisory1/949429439_vexsK-X2.jpg)

There is a major odor rising up from this entire JTA BRT system plan. This plan has been shown, proven, taken out to dinner and taken home drunk. We all know along with JTA that BRT is a joke and does nothing enhance either ridership or Transit Oriented Development for the areas it will be run through. JTA has been shown countless times how rail is so much more cost effective both in terms of construction costs and positive growth to the adjoining areas. Yet, they continue to shove this project down the throat of Jacksonville. Why is that?

I think there needs to a complete and total personal financial audit of every JTA board member, employee, Local and State official who has had any say whatsoever in this project. The only reason projects this bad get pushed thru is because someone is getting their pockets lined.

We all know that Jax is 20 years behind it's peer cities.  If Little Rock started it's streetcar system in 2001, then Jax still has nearly 11 years to go before falling any FURTHER behind.  So get off JTA's back.

Perhaps the conspiracy is that Gate provides all the gas for the buses?   

While I am no fan of BRT and I think everyone here makes valid points, some comments seem better off left unsaid.  Namely comments attacking Tufsu (which I seem to notice a lot) and comments clearly displaying chips on someone's shoulder against certain people that have masters or PhDs.  Sometimes it gets overwhelming when we all display the same points and the same point of view and a little bit of opposition (which Tufsu's comments were not endorsing the plan in any way) is a breath of fresh air.  I usually find myself in the same stance as everyone here, but when we are all on the same page and literally attacking people that come up with these plans, it wears pretty quickly.  Lastly about the masters and PhDs, who says that the JTA board is made up of people with them?  And what's wrong with working to get either one?  I plan on getting my MBA at some point, does that make me a bad person?  Personally attacking the rich or the "uber-educated", easy as it is sometimes, accomplishes nothing and probably dissuades more people than it persuades.

OK, on to the plan.  I am no fan of BRT and think we should hold out for LRT or streetcar, but I think the reasoning behind all of this has to do with people who are only in positions of leadership at JTA for short periods and want some sort of legacy or at least something to do, and only dirt being turned provides fulfills that goal for many people.  Planning and trying to win federal money for a more robust and properly implemented system will take a few years at least, and that means nothing happens under the current leadership's watch.  That is probably a big roadblock for us that is not discussed very often, but is also probably a reason why they keep pushing for these silly projects that waste money.

I think that Stephen is right in that transit needs to become a separate agency with ties to the city planning department (which is currently under drastically better leadership with Killingsworth at the helm).

Also, Lake, thanks for posting a map of the BRT North route.  I like the route and think it does a pretty good job of hitting dense residential areas and the few "commercial" areas on the northside, but eventually another branch will have to head towards RiverCity Marketplace and that area to really maximize use (especially with Shands opening up a branch hospital there).  More stops may also be necessary closer in to the core, but I think JTA at least thought out the route well, even though it doesn't follow the S curve.

Quotebut eventually another branch will have to head towards RiverCity Marketplace and that area to really maximize use (especially with Shands opening up a branch hospital there).

Commuter rail will serve this area instead of BRT.

^^^Well I meant whatever serves that area, be it BRT, commuter/DMU, or LRT (the latter two preferred).  Is commuter planned for that area for sure?

What we need to ask potential mayoral candidates, as well as council members running, "If elected, would you be willing to completely clean out JTA management and throw out all of their future plans and finally put to rest that god awful BRT plan once and for all never to even be spoken of ever ever again?!" That issue alone, if solved, will bring all other urban problems in place to be solved. Like a puzzle, we have to start at the right piece. And let's keep the pressure on JTA to stop their madness!

Well, the general concensus appears to me, IMHO, WTF? Here we go again, BRT does nothing regarding urban infill and yet rail does...................so why does JTA keep pushing this down our throats? $12 Million Dollars would go along way to revitalizing downtown and the surrounding area's yet here we go again with more concrete and stripping and lighting and some fancy new "Historical" Bus stops..........I mean WTH! I am really getting feed up with JTA and their narrow minded approach to mass transit! Advertising will not help if there is no one to read the advertising and we just will be forced to subsidize JTA even further then we allready do. Instead of a narrow outlook, they should be looking down range 50 years and then some but nooooooooo, they can not see past their narrow concrete noses! If they had to pay for this out of their own pockets, they might change there outlook, but using taxpayer funds, they really don't care about much of anything other than protecting their fiefdom and their turf! Past time for the clown college to be changed! urbaknight...........you have a point!

QuoteNamely comments attacking Tufsu (which I seem to notice a lot) and comments clearly displaying chips on someone's shoulder against certain people that have masters or PhDs.

Totally agreed. Tufsu is certainly entitled to express his or her opinions without having such a rabid and "Fox News" level of unmeasured response. Keep on keepin' on, Tufsu.

I'm not even going to approach the grapes souring on the vine regarding those who expand their education.

QuoteThis BRT plan isn't a fixed system.  Its a network of roads that the majority of city buses will use at some point along their route to where ever they are going.

And this, frankly, is why it is doomed to fail miserably. Unless you get dedicated lanes, or are in an environment toxic to driving (like DC,) you don't get ridership.

To me, this project reeks of politicians wanting to say they're "doing something," when, in fact, they're really doing nothing. A more sinister view would be that since the $12 million is free from the feds, and that it duplicates an existing, underused route, once could easily use the obviously low ridership results to "prove" that both BRT and mass transit in general don't work in Jacksonville.

Honestly, Jacksonville's transit nonsense makes all the crap regarding DC Streetcars look awesome in comparison.

It's also hysterical that the stops are so close to one another. Like people can't walk two blocks. Certainly removes the "R" from "BRT."

Yeah! But it's Bus Rapid Transit dude! Like the HSR, down Orlando way, with stops also that slow things up, 30 minutes over driving! I see no advantage but money down the tubes for a half butted system! Well its supposed to be going Miami way in the future.............no money allocated for that end yet, so we end up with something that starts nowhere and goes nowhere! Yup............outstanding use of our tax dollars!

Part of your day. Part of your community. Part of your life. Thanks fro rubbing it in for those like me who can't see well enough to drive. I have to rely on this broken system, and I don't appreciate them telling me that on every busride over the loud speaker! I don't want to look back on my life 80 years from now and remember these a$$ holes that are always late, some but not as many as before, are very nasty to their riders, and if you're not in the street to stop them, they'll simply pass you by! Please, some one email me about meeting up to take this issue on. I promise to be civil, diplomatic and will rant constructively. My email is as fallows, (albiknight@gmail.com) Thank you all. 

How does a bus get a passing mark in an environmental impact study? Light rail/fixed trolley would be more friendly in that aspect, no?

Toddparker...thank you!!!! studies done on rails are always considerable clear on how much beneficial they are for the environment. As well as bringing more commercial business and blah blah...things we already know.Yet things these idiotic people seem to refuse to pay attention.

Petitions? protests?? what do we have to do to get our voice heard in the crappy city? i came from Atlanta and miss the rail...and miss having a voice. Rail is something people shouldn't give up on. And something this city will get before i leave. I really want to go to the meeting tomorrow to see what idiots are in charge for this mistake they are about to put the citizens of jacksonville through.

San Francisco and Seattle rely heavily on bus transit within the city, but they do have a rail component.

QuoteHow does a bus get a passing mark in an environmental impact study? Light rail/fixed trolley would be more friendly in that aspect, no?

Yes, but buses are much more environmentally friendly than cars. Putting this plan into context, it's plainly obvious that the powers that be are trying to make bus rapid transit appear to fail, which might be good (in that it will be off the table,) or bad (in that it might be represented to voters as "all mass transit will fail in Jacksonville.")

QuoteSan Francisco and Seattle rely heavily on bus transit within the city, but they do have a rail component.

They also, like DC, have invested heavily in new, clean, comfortable buses for the more upscale areas at least (in DC, cracktown gets the old buses. Sigh. Welcome to America.)

Quotei came from Atlanta and miss the rail...and miss having a voice. Rail is something people shouldn't give up on.

I lived in Atlanta as well, prior to DC, and MARTA is mos def not something for Jacksonville to emulate. Less than 5% of the metropolitan population uses MARTA's trains everyday. Moreover (and hysterically, considering the topic of this forum,) the system is widely perceived to be an expensive failure that the only plans for expansion that are actively moving forward are...Bus Rapid Transit. I for one, used the Buckhead station to get to and from the airport and sometimes Midtown, but in general, the stations don't go anyplace I need them to go. The other rail project that is starting in Atlanta is the Inner Beltway light rail or streetcar, but that's expected to be done in 30 years (!!!!)

Leaving aside the obvious racism that helped to hobble MARTA, the system doesn't serve the metro area with practicality. Like it or not, Atlanta tore itself apart for the car, and even as it has embraced denser development, it's meant to be driven to and experienced, rather than transit-ed to. Take the vaunted Atlantic Station, built over a multi-tiered parking deck, and on the other side of the monster Downtown Connector.

How long ago was that? i was in Atlanta just two weeks ago...using the Metro like I always do. And a lot of riders like I always remember. Mostly everyone that live in my complex midtown rode the Metro to work. BECAUSE THEY WENT PLACES. And i remember front page articles announcing that Marta is the 7th busiest in the country. So i think your facts might be a bit outdated. How long ago did you live there??? Did you live in midtown??

Quote from: TheProfessor on July 27, 2010, 05:48:35 PM
San Francisco and Seattle rely heavily on bus transit within the city, but they do have a rail component.

true...and many cities are adding BRT....even NYC is proposing it right through manhattan

remember that the previous administration in Washington supported BRT almost exclusively....which is partially why JTA started down this path in 2002.

In the end, just like roads, our public transit system needs to be comprehensive and include mutliple forms....commuter rail, BRT, streetcar, local bus, skyway, etc.

btw...thanks for the support folks...I'll keep trying to provide useful iknformation (occasionally along with an opinion or two).

tufsu..............as you so plainly put it "

Quote from: tufsu1

In the end, just like roads, our public transit system needs to be comprehensive and include mutliple forms....commuter rail, BRT, streetcar, local bus, skyway, etc quoteBRT is first up, does thing mean we can pass on any form of rail for the next 20 years? Will a complete intermodal system ever be discussed beyond another study (which will cost us more money and we still will have just a form of bus no matter what its labeled) I have seen nothing that discusses other options and to be perfectly honest, Washington has been disconnected from the taxpayers for quite some time now! In our world, Jacksonville, JTA appears to do what they wish, when they wish and poop on any discussion regarding any intermodal transit system other than more concrete.......whether its plain old bus, BRT or auto! I think we need to consider autogyro's but thats just me!

CS...don't tell me you haven't seen anything that dicusses other options....you've seen JTA's transit vision, the TPO's 2035 LRTP, the City's mobility plan, and countless articles on MetroJax

and the good news is the JTA will be moving forward with the next step in implementing commuter rail (environmental studies) very soon.

BRT is not a "thing", rather it IS a vague system of doing things, as "track and field" describe an Olympic type sport, any combination of events might describe the actual article. This is why I call BRT a cafe, it is a true smorgasbord of bus theory, and bus concepts, with some imitation LRT/Streetcar idea's added for spice.

Again I must say that BRT is not bad, in fact it can be very good and is an excellent way to feed into a larger system. Imagine a bus on Blanding during the morning rush leaving Orange Park in the stop and go traffic until it reaches FSCJ at Kent Campus. Talk about a long ride! Meanwhile it must still navigate Park Street all the way to a job at BOA Downtown for example. Now your talking about a REALLY long ride!

Next imagine exclusive bus/HOV lanes on both Kingsley and Wells roads, the ability to circulate blanding during the rush hour and meet a train at the CSX crossings. Bingo, we just cut 20-45 minutes off the trip to downtown. This DOES require select bus lanes, and signal priority would be a great aid, toss in "Next bus" or "Google bus", decent stops, low floors, new more comfortable equipment and you have BRT that WORKS!

Why I want to protest JTA's current BRT plan is because:

1. It spends $20 Million dollars to largely duplicate our $200 Million dollar Skyway, thus we compete with ourselves and for all of the funds, still haven't moved the system 100 feet closer to real destinations. This same amount would probably take the Skyway all the way to Atlantic in San Marco and ignite some real ridership.

2. The abandoned nature of the streets on the Southbank route speaks to the fact that there is absolutely no need to spend 5 cents on "upgrades" to "BRT standards," whatever the hell that might be.

3. The reconstruction again focuses only on engine powered - polluting - rubber tired transit, completely missing the bike rider commuter which is daily making up more and more of America's younger, healthier commuters. While broad and Jefferson makes all the sense in the world yet reconstruction plans demonstrate little more then the same old city streets without a single modern multimodal consideration.

4. How can BRT JAX do anything to improve bus ridership when the agency refuses such common conviencies as simple transfers?

5. Even if BRT runs every 2 minutes on these routes, when one reaches the end of the lines, the next bus is likely in 45 minutes which brings us back to start, no improvement seen.

6. BRT even in it's finest hour will not perform the economic miracles that are seen with streetcar and frankly for an equal amount of money, we could have streetcar. Understand that this money is from the Federal Government and we COULD NOT use it to build anything but the approved BRT plan. The frustration is not that anyone thinks we should use those funds for rail, rather it is in the fact that JTA wasted the last 5 years trying to sell a flawed bus system that they claim was "Just like rail" when they could have been moving toward rail. At the very least JTA should have sought funds for BRT as a compliment to a future rail system rather then a stand alone mass transit solution.

7. Amazingly $20 Million should be enough to provide many of the BRT type improvements over a whole bus route. Las Vegas managed to build one of the "model" BRT systems for $2 Million per mile. Since prices are generally lower in the Southeast then in the West, sort of makes one wonder WTF is going on?

Perhaps it's time to organize that protest?  A friendly demonstration that the people WANT RAIL! NOT BRT! At least not BRT that will neuter whatever is left of the Skyway's ridership.

When I rant about mass transit and JTA in particular, I want to make it clear that I have no single person in mind, it's not personal, it's general. The Neanderthal's are FDOT, JTA, COJ, or anyone and anything else that continues to have such flippant disregard for the desires of our fair metropolis.

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining!

OCKLAWAHA

I looked at this BRT route map. The only thing I can see is that the Skyway will be shut down in 12 months.

The Feds paid to have it built, now the Feds will pay for its "replacement".

Absolutely insane and a waste of my tax dollars. Just insane.

tufsu...........your correct with your post to a certain extent! I have seen study after study, I have been to several public meetings and have seen consulting report after consulting report issued.......BRT is being pushed as the panacea for mass transit? I beg to differ! BRT should be one slice of the intermodal model .....not the only one! Routing is going to fight with the Skyway for ridership and both systems will suffer in the long run! Reconfiguring streets and re timing lights for BRT useage is money going down the tubes, just like HSR down Orlando way! We need an outside agency to plan, execute and implement........Not JTA who has a proven record of cooking their books with figures that substantiate whatever plan they have in mind. ( this is when they provide figures ....still waiting for current ones!)Current bus system needs simple things ......like shelters for stops, pull offs for bus's to discharge or take on riders. Headway needs to be better managed....in other words, when we have the current system fully up to speed and running like a Swiss watch, by then we may be able to add BRT and get our monies worth, but not before! With me it is a matter of dollar signs, I want the most I can get for my tax dollars and this ain't it!

Whatever happened to Ock's proclamations of "good news involving rail and skyway are closer than you think!" ?  Not for one minute do I doubt Ock's knowledge and abilities, but man - if this is the 'news' we've been waiting for, color me disappointed. 

It maddens me to no end that the Skyway isn't being touched and is now being duplicated for the sake of fulfilling some JTA idiots' wet-dream obsession with buses.  Why, WHY WHY?!?!  WHY the hell are there no 'official' discussions about doing something productive and proactive with the existing infrastructure of Skyway or streetcar or anything else?

::goes to smoke and calm down::

^If people want change, the best way is to make mass transit a major issue during this mayoral race and back a candidate that promises to flip the apple cart.

I'm all for that, Lake.  Truly. 

Are we going to/Would it be prudent to form a MetroJax PAC and really make a statement?

I'm just sick to death of wanting to add to the current fleet of empty buses with more empty buses!

QuoteHow long ago was that? i was in Atlanta just two weeks ago...using the Metro like I always do. And a lot of riders like I always remember. Mostly everyone that live in my complex midtown rode the Metro to work. BECAUSE THEY WENT PLACES. And i remember front page articles announcing that Marta is the 7th busiest in the country. So i think your facts might be a bit outdated. How long ago did you live there??? Did you live in midtown??

I lived there until 2007, so not too long ago. I lived in Buckhead and periodically took the MARTA to Midtown and the airport. But MARTA is a woefully underused system. Anecdotal usage by you and your friends does not a successful application of mass transit make. And the 7th busiest in the country doesn't exactly provide the context. Miami's utter failure of the Metrorail ranks as 10th, for example.

If you look at that list, there is one really huge application of heavy rail transit: New York Subway. You drop 7.5 million riders to get to second place, DC.  And then you drop nearly 400,000 to third place in Chicago. And then you drop another 400,000 daily riders to get to MARTA.

I agree that the MARTA rail/buses seem to be used on a perenctage basis about the same as Jacksonville.  People with cars only use it to get to the airport or get to work downtown typically.  Most people rely on the car.

QuoteBRT is not a "thing", rather it IS a vague system of doing things, as "track and field" describe an Olympic type sport, any combination of events might describe the actual article. This is why I call BRT a cafe, it is a true smorgasbord of bus theory, and bus concepts, with some imitation LRT/Streetcar idea's added for spice.

To be fair to Bus Rapid Transit, it is a "thing" when applied correctly. Like any other mass transit method, give the buses their own lanes, or grade separate them from traffic, and BRT can effectively move people from Point A to Point B. Build the stations a reasonable distance apart, and the bus can build up speed on their dedicated right of way and rapidly go from station to station.

What Jacksonville is proposing isn't BRT. The stations are waaaaaaaay too close together for effective speed (and really, use.) The majority of the routes are on shared right of way. In effect, it's a streets program, where the roads have been "enhanced for transit." But it's not BRT, at least not according to that map.

What politicians do in the United States is describe any form of enhanced bus services as BRT. Their bastardization of the concept has, in effect, created the "cafe" you describe (and brilliantly, I might add.) But the concept itself is sound and easily defined. Dedicated rights of way that attach to a transit station an appropriate distance apart, only using buses instead of light or heavy rail = BRT. "BRT" that shares lanes with other traffic is a bus with "RT" attached for fun. "BRT" that has three stops in seven city blocks (!!!!) is a megamall parking lot shuttle, at best.

This is my main issue among many here. I mean, if you're gonna build a BRT system, it better damned well be a real BRT system, instead of just a glam bus line.   

Great description, AaroniusLives .  Jax's BRT Phase I is essentially a streets program.  Eventually, when a few BRT corridors come on line, there will be a bus route that only follows those corridors.  However, like phase 1, existing bus routes will also use these streets that are "enhanced for bus transit" as a part of getting to where ever they are going.

QuoteDedicated rights of way that attach to a transit station an appropriate distance apart, only using buses instead of light or heavy rail = BRT. "BRT" that shares lanes with other traffic is a bus with "RT" attached for fun. "BRT" that has three stops in seven city blocks (!!!!) is a megamall parking lot shuttle, at best.

This is my main issue among many here. I mean, if you're gonna build a BRT system, it better damned well be a real BRT system, instead of just a glam bus line.

To be fair to JTA, this is what they originally had planned and we blew this concept right out of the water because it would have cost us more than building rail.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/brt/nabi60brt.gif)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-system-map.jpg)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-95-north-graphic.jpg)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-Elevated-graphic.jpg)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-graphic1.jpg)

If you're going to go through this much trouble to create dedicated busways, you're better off spending less money to implement "no-frills" rail lines and complementing them by revising the existing bus system to feed riders into the rail-based spines.  At least that type of investment would create a string of TOD opportunities and linear urban growth in a sea of suburbia.

Problems JTA has is that they haven't found a way to decrease the size of their buses at certain times of the day and at the same time improve the time one has to wait for that bus(right now JTA pulls its buses after morning and evening drive time which also adds to the time one has to wait for a bus.. 30 min to an hour on line...offline wait is 1 hour or longer). Other problems is the expense of manning those buses, trying to get off of diesel fuel and on to electric, putting in overhead trolley lines and at the same time obtaining right of ways for those lines of the most utilized routes. As JTA's drivers continue to retire, a replacement system for those drivers, that would require driverless transportation, should be fully realized whenever possible. Is BART the start of such a system? After 30 years since I last took public transportation...I'd give our current system a 50 to 50 in its present form. One of the things that would vastly improve ridership would be for Mr Miller to come up with some type of air filtration system for his NEW buses(the perfume, and afterwork afternoon odor was terrible, please do something about the air one must breathe on these buses) 2. if possible, extend the time these buses run at night(no one wants to be stranded at his location after work) The JTA has done a lot of talking about what it is doing or about what it is about to do in the area of improving our transportation needs in Jacksonville but so do our ego striken politicians. The question one must ask is whether or not this talk is going to materialize or is it just a lot of hot air just before an election....only time will tell. Let's hope it's for the better!!

the system has been dubbed BRT because that opens the door for Federal funding under the New Starts/Small Starts program...and since FTA has allocated funds for the downtown portion, they must be convinced that it qualifies as BRT.

QuoteTo be fair to JTA, this is what they originally had planned and we blew this concept right out of the water because it would have cost us more than building rail.

Well, looking through the plans for that concept of BRT, of course it would have cost zillions to build, and while it's technically rapid transit using buses, it's really a form of commuter rail using buses. My favorite, insane part of those plans are the "where we'll put the buses on the highway." Uh, really? Has anyone ever wanted to go and get off a bus, and tour the scenic highway?

If I were going to design an affordable, effective BRT system in Jacksonville, I'd appropriate a north-south road and an east-west road that already exists and dedicate it to BRT use only. I'd spend money to grade-separate the two corridors as much as possible from the surrounding auto traffic, from train gates at the low end to small bridges at the high end (overpasses? Is that a highway term?) Then again, if I were going to do that, I might as well go whole hog into rail, eh?

Quotethe system has been dubbed BRT because that opens the door for Federal funding under the New Starts/Small tarts program...and since FTA has allocated funds for the downtown portion, they must be convinced that it qualifies as BRT.

That's just stupid.

Well I currently live in Midtown across from Art Center Station and I use MARTA when I can, but I agree with Aaronius that it does not go near enough places.  Almost half a million people ride MARTA a day (which is closer to 10% of metro population), though those figures also represent busses I think.  The Beltline has been making faster progress than anyone though and big players like Jamestown (they just bought City Hall East across from the new 4th Ward park as part of the beltline) are getting involved and making plays because the idea and the plan are really great and making significant progress.

Part of the problem of MARTA trains is that there are really 2 lines (though both branch off at some point).  The E-W line goes from Bankhead to just past Decatur (so basically a rough hood to a rough hood).  The N-S line goes from the airport to Perimeter and half of it also goes through the hood, so it is just another service line for people who cannot afford to have a car to go work low paying jobs or city government jobs.  It also acts as a feeder for certain seedier elements into nicer areas.  This of course would happen with any system, but literally only 25% of MARTA train lines pass through dense business districts and nice residential areas.  MARTA needs to go more places, and the Beltline will help significantly, I think.  DC metro has plenty of criminal elements riding it (More prevalent on some lines over others), but because it goes EVERYWHERE, everyone rides it and the  seedy elements become less noticeable.

The thing that has changed about MARTA is that there actually ARE more people riding it nowadays, and a more diverse group.  The population ITP has boomed providing more of a ridership base, but I still would not ride it at night alone or ride on the E-W line period.  (PS I had my ass handed to me at Art Center Station at 11:00 p.m. last summer for an unknown reason, not theft, and at the time I was the only white person in the whole station and the only one dressed in decent clothes, so that could have something to do with it, thus MARTA still has some issues).

Please someone confirm that the BRT does not plan on building elevated platforms??  Might as well do rail if this were the case.

QuoteWell I currently live in Midtown across from Art Center Station and I use MARTA when I can, but I agree with Aaronius that it does not go near enough places.  Almost half a million people ride MARTA a day (which is closer to 10% of metro population), though those figures also represent busses I think.  The Beltline has been making faster progress than anyone though and big players like Jamestown (they just bought City Hall East across from the new 4th Ward park as part of the beltline) are getting involved and making plays because the idea and the plan are really great and making significant progress.

The combined total of MARTA's buses, paratransit services and heavy rail equals out to 461,800 daily trips, or 8.4% of the metropolitan population. (If we assume that each trip is part of a "round trip" of two, then only 4.2% of the population is using MARTA.)

MARTA's heavy rail system had 242,700 daily trips, or 4.4% of the metropolitan population.

QuoteThe thing that has changed about MARTA is that there actually ARE more people riding it nowadays, and a more diverse group.

I'm pleased with the diversity shift, but actually, less people are riding MARTA: down 5.7% for all modes and 4.77% for heavy rail. That's within a metropolitan statistical area that grew in population by nearly 30% over the last decade. More people are living there and yet less people are using its transit.

http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2010_q1_ridership_APTA.pdf

QuotePart of the problem of MARTA trains is that there are really 2 lines (though both branch off at some point).  The E-W line goes from Bankhead to just past Decatur (so basically a rough hood to a rough hood).  The N-S line goes from the airport to Perimeter and half of it also goes through the hood, so it is just another service line for people who cannot afford to have a car to go work low paying jobs or city government jobs.  It also acts as a feeder for certain seedier elements into nicer areas.  This of course would happen with any system, but literally only 25% of MARTA train lines pass through dense business districts and nice residential areas.  MARTA needs to go more places, and the Beltline will help significantly, I think. 

I lived in Buckhead and worked in Perimeter Center (in the "King" building.) I could walk to the Buckhead Station, brave the elements and breathe in the perfume of the highway surrounding me...only to wind up quite far from where I needed to be for work. Or, I could go to the Midtown station and walk a mile and a half to Atlantic Station, for example. Hence, why people choose to drive.

QuoteDC metro has plenty of criminal elements riding it (More prevalent on some lines over others), but because it goes EVERYWHERE, everyone rides it and the  seedy elements become less noticeable.

DC's Metro, in general, is well-policed and quite safe. You still notice the seedy elements, but having transit cops strictly enforcing everything helps. And it totally does not go everywhere. There are holes in the Metro system that are served by buses, Circulators and shuttles...specifically because it DOESN'T go everywhere. however, it sure as hell goes to a lot of "somewheres."

Aaronius you and I are actually agreeing on pretty much every point, semantics aside.

I am fortunate in that I live right across the street from Art Center Station (which is only .5 miles from AS and there is a bus that loops from Art Center to AS avery 5 minutes), and I work in Northpark Center, which is connected underground to a MARTA station.  I have about 100 total feet of walking "outside."  King is pretty far out of the way from both Dunwoody and Sandy Springs Stations, though, so I would not ride MARTA there either and Perimeter is the most pedestrian unfriendly environment I have ever been in bar none.

Maybe less people are riding MARTA than a decade ago (though 4.4% less is not significantly less, but it is odd since the ITP population has grown by over 50-60%).  There is more diversity according to everyone I speak to, though, so maybe there are less criminals and more workers riding.  That makes a very large difference to me.  And lastly no system takes you everywhere, I was just emphasizing a point because DC's system does take you everywhere in relation to Atlanta's system which was designed literally to haul people into downtown and then haul them back out into the burbs and not to go anywhere else.  Lindbergh and Buckhead are very similar to stations like Rockville and Silver Springs in the DC metro, and Peachtree Center downtown actually looks like a DC metro station with its depth in the ground and curved rock design.  The rest of Atlanta's system is piss poor in design, but can only get better as long as they don't forego their security.

On the security, I agree with you that there is not enough.  I literally get attacked by Atlanta people on other boards (City-Data and Skyscraperpage) for making that claim and for stating hard truths about certain aspects of MARTA (like don't ride the E-W line, literally at all).  I quit one of the boards over the matter because people are so up in arms in Atlanta over race relations and nothing heats it up like a good old MARTA talk.  I just tell people that hey, I don't have to ride MARTA because I have a nice German car that can take me more places in comfortable leather seating and a great sound system, etc, but I still choose to ride MARTA when I can, so I am obviously not a racist, but there are some definite problems and safety is one.  The MARTA cops suck, I know from experience.

After I got beat up (this was a non-diversity moment if you know what I mean...I was the only one that brought "diversity" at 11 p.m. at Art Center and I'm  white), I thought that 2 MARTA cops walking out of the coffee shop way in the back of the station nowhere near the platform were "security."  I was literally spraying blood everywhere (broken nose and cheekbone, bashed eye that needed stitches) and I just happened to see them when I was fleeing and I yelled "Security!" and they were offended and practically wouldn't help me at first because they were actually "cops".  One said before muttering anything else or helping, "Does it look like we are security to you?" and then he flashed his badge.

Just an example of crazy crap that goes on in Atlanta, but we should probably avoid further MARTA talk and focus on this other mess that is the Jax BRT system.

Jax should learn from Atlanta that it is hard enough to get suburbanites to ride a train, let alone a bus.  Jax should also learn that a system cannot be designed just to get people from points A to point B and then back.  It must go to many points.

No elevated platforms Prof.

...and YES DOC, rail and streetcar are WAY CLOSER then anyone suspects, including Amtrak Downtown! Trust me!

Quote

QuoteQuote
BRT is not a "thing", rather it IS a vague system of doing things, as "track and field" describe an Olympic type sport, any combination of events might describe the actual article. This is why I call BRT a cafe, it is a true smorgasbord of bus theory, and bus concepts, with some imitation LRT/Streetcar idea's added for spice.

To be fair to Bus Rapid Transit, it is a "thing" when applied correctly. Like any other mass transit method, give the buses their own lanes, or grade separate them from traffic, and BRT can effectively move people from Point A to Point B. Build the stations a reasonable distance apart, and the bus can build up speed on their dedicated right of way and rapidly go from station to station.

As for BRT being a cafe rather then a certain thing? No cigar here, not even the national transit agencies can decide what BRT really is. I'll agree that the description given by Aaronius most certainly IS BRT, likewise a project like Jacksonville's is also considered BRT. Los Angeles' Metro-Rapid is also called BRT and while part of it is on grade separated right of way, a good deal of it is in mixed traffic. The BRT title has also been endowed on the Las Vegas system which uses HOV and mixed lanes with fancy bus stops. Eugene has BRT with complete grade separation and even built drive lanes that look like concrete train track but it's speeds and frequent stops make it just another bus, albeit a "BRT BUS".

I think the guy/gal that thought up this expensive cockeyed scheme probably had the system Aaronius described in mind, but give the government some time and they have royally screwed it up.  GW's orgasmic rhapsody over anything oil powered is "Why" BRT suddenly became the new savior of all things transit. In other words, if you loved GW, BP, Mobil or Standard Oil, you'll probably love BRT.

The description of BRT or lack thereof is important because in the absence of GW and the pro-highway gas addicts, it has suddenly fell out of "favorite son" status in Washington. Add the demotion of BRT to the ignorance of the JTA board or most Jacksonville Citizens, and the fact that this city hasn't seen real transit since 1936 and we're in deep trouble. Our own transit agency couldn't pour water out of this boot with instructions written on the heel. So they produced the slick BRT dog and pony show's led by a "transit expert" (a former DJ from an Orlando radio station) to dazzle the public.

Metro Jacksonville called them on the carpet for this, produced a professional video about REAL BRT, and totally embarrassed the JTA in front of the City Council a year or so ago. We will continue to stand up and shout whenever waste is stealing true improvement from our transportation system. The fact is since 1932 when General Motors entered town under a corporate cover and wiped out the streetcar system, our city HAS been pissing on our legs and telling us it's raining, a behavior that is going to cease.  


OCKLAWAHA

QuoteI was just emphasizing a point because DC's system does take you everywhere in relation to Atlanta's system which was designed literally to haul people into downtown and then haul them back out into the burbs and not to go anywhere else.  Lindbergh and Buckhead are very similar to stations like Rockville and Silver Springs in the DC metro, and Peachtree Center downtown actually looks like a DC metro station with its depth in the ground and curved rock design.

DC's Metro system is designed the exact same way: to take people from the 'burbs into the central city and out again. It is one of the central flaws of the system as it is used today: to get around the city one frequently has to take a trip into downtown and switch to another line, where a more direct route would be quicker and easier. The same is true for Atlanta: nobody anticipated that commerce would follow residents into the 'burbs.

One of the key, essential differences between DC and Atlanta (and many other cities across the country, including Miami, Jacksonville, Detroit...) is that most of DC wasn't torn up and destroyed in order to lay down a highway system. Most of DC has retained it's grid of streets. There is no massive, 16-lane ditch full of cars smack-dab in the middle of the city to overcome.

Another key difference is that DC's Metro was built in lieu of highways and highway expansion. MARTA, and life in Metro Atlanta is defined by the highway. The "Freeing the Freeways" program doubled Atlanta's interstate lane miles from 900 to 1851. More than doubled. And cost more than 1.5 billion dollars. 

QuoteJax should learn from Atlanta that it is hard enough to get suburbanites to ride a train, let alone a bus.  Jax should also learn that a system cannot be designed just to get people from points A to point B and then back.  It must go to many points.

In addition, those points must be "somewhere." Dropping off a bunch of people in a parking deck a couple of miles from where you want to be is not "somewhere."

And it's not just suburbanites you have to convince. People who live in cities that have been re-purposed for the car have to be convinced as well. You have to deliberately reverse policy to make streets for people again. To use Atlanta as an example, you can't make it uber-convenient for me to use my car to drive to Atlantic Station, park in the parking deck built below it, and then walk around. You can't have a MARTA station in Buckhead empty out into a morass of mall parking lots, filled with cars, or cars looking for spots (I lived in the Paramount.) As much as the traffic sucked in Atlanta, it was frequently more pleasant to drive than to walk. As much as the traffic in DC sucks, and waiting for a bus sucks, and being trapped underground in a non-air conditioned Metro car sucks, I sold my car because it's much, MUCH more pleasant to walk or take transit.

QuoteAs for BRT being a cafe rather then a certain thing? No cigar here, not even the national transit agencies can decide what BRT really is. I'll agree that the description given by Aaronius most certainly IS BRT, likewise a project like Jacksonville's is also considered BRT. Los Angeles' Metro-Rapid is also called BRT and while part of it is on grade separated right of way, a good deal of it is in mixed traffic. The BRT title has also been endowed on the Las Vegas system which uses HOV and mixed lanes with fancy bus stops. Eugene has BRT with complete grade separation and even built drive lanes that look like concrete train track but it's speeds and frequent stops make it just another bus, albeit a "BRT BUS".

Again, a failure on the part of the bureaucrats to explain BRT does not negate the basic definition of BRT. A bus in mixed traffic without a dedicated right of way is not BRT. It's a fancy bus line.

QuoteI think the guy/gal that thought up this expensive cockeyed scheme probably had the system Aaronius described in mind...

Actually, no. The entire point of implementing BRT over LRT or HRT (at least before the 'Mericans went a screwed up the language,) was to save money by reserving existing streets and their rights of way for buses only, while combining that with expanded avenues that incorporate exclusive right of way for the BRT system. It was a way to consolidate road/transit spending. Moreover, it's supposed to go "somewhere." Jacksonville's BRT plan looks like a commuter rail system. People drive to a parking lot off the highway and then board a bus. Hysterically, it actually builds wacky elevated BRT structures in the highway, instead of reserving existing lanes.

To put this another way, if the point of BRT is to duplicate the effects of LRT or HRT, the reason to pursue it is because it's cost-effective to do so. Jacksonville's vanity BRT plan most certainly is not the latter. And this line system through the central city is not the former.

QuoteIn other words, if you loved GW, BP, Mobil or Standard Oil, you'll probably love BRT.

That is vastly oversimplifying the argument, but I did find it funny as hell, so I'm callin' it out, yo.

Is the "track" BRT picture from the O-Bahn busway in Australia?
 

Therein lies part of the problem with me! If JTA is going to tell me that BRT versus Rail in any form is more efficient, I will look them right in the eye and tell them to go F*** themselves! I know the difference between a bus and any form of rail, one aspect of which is more go for the same amount of fuel, if your discussing diesel power! Diesel/Electric is even more efficient when you compare a tonnage moved per mile......hell if JTA can make up fancy words, so can I ;) If your looking for efficiency per ridership mile, rail knocks any sort of glamour bus/trolley (if its on wheels!) into the weeds! The current proposal is going to be bus's, whether they are new or whatever, running on streets modified (more tax dollars down the tubes) with new Historical Bus Shelters (probably overpriced and JTA has said nothing about maintaining them other then they can be retrofitted for advertisements......whopee!) I guess the next question should be......why does BRT get new shelters when the other 1800 some odd bus stops don't have squat other than a sign? Why have we got bus's stopping in one side of a two lane road, blocking traffic from proceding around? I think we need to fine tune what we have before we start getting fancy.....maybe fix the issues with low ridership and the like before we start something that has no guarantee of success..............kinda like the $kyway......whose route is being duplicated! Where is the savings in time, taxpayer money and maybe the downtown infill we don't have!

Hey Aaronius, I like your presentation and suspect we agree at about 95%, Professional background perhaps?

Quote from: AaroniusLives on July 28, 2010, 04:28:18 PM

QuoteI was just emphasizing a point because DC's system does take you everywhere in relation to Atlanta's system which was designed literally to haul people into downtown and then haul them back out into the burbs and not to go anywhere else.  Lindbergh and Buckhead are very similar to stations like Rockville and Silver Springs in the DC metro, and Peachtree Center downtown actually looks like a DC metro station with its depth in the ground and curved rock design.

Another key difference is that DC's Metro was built in lieu of highways and highway expansion. MARTA, and life in Metro Atlanta is defined by the highway. The "Freeing the Freeways" program doubled Atlanta's interstate lane miles from 900 to 1851. More than doubled. And cost more than 1.5 billion dollars. 

Jax should learn from Atlanta that it is hard enough to get suburbanites to ride a train, let alone a bus.  Jax should also learn that a system cannot be designed just to get people from points A to point B and then back.  It must go to many points.

In addition, those points must be "somewhere." Dropping off a bunch of people in a parking deck a couple of miles from where you want to be is not "somewhere."

And it's not just suburbanites you have to convince. People who live in cities that have been re-purposed for the car have to be convinced as well. You have to deliberately reverse policy to make streets for people again. To use Atlanta as an example, you can't make it uber-convenient for me to use my car to drive to Atlantic Station, park in the parking deck built below it, and then walk around. You can't have a MARTA station in Buckhead empty out into a morass of mall parking lots, filled with cars, or cars looking for spots (I lived in the Paramount.) As much as the traffic sucked in Atlanta, it was frequently more pleasant to drive than to walk. As much as the traffic in DC sucks, and waiting for a bus sucks, and being trapped underground in a non-air conditioned Metro car sucks, I sold my car because it's much, MUCH more pleasant to walk or take transit.

The only flaw in this simple explanation is LOS ANGELES. The city most known for it's love affair with the automobile is busting the seams of record after record in mass transit ridership. But typical of California, once they decided to go with it, (helped along by the mother of earthquakes which closed mountain passes) they went all out, BRT, LRT, Commuter Rail and Heavy Rail.  Los Angeles? Who would of thunk it?

The City of Angels is also one of my "homes" and you can't imagine my joy during the last visits at not having to drive ANYWHERE I wanted to go. All this and it's getting bigger and better every day.

QuoteLos Angeles' Metro subway, one section of which topped 2020 ridership projections in its first year of operation, saw ridership grow by nearly 6 percent during the first nine months of 2009.
http://la.streetsblog.org/2010/01/04/apta-economic-slump-hitting-transit-ridership-but-not-in-l-a/

QuoteAs for BRT being a cafe rather then a certain thing? No cigar here, not even the national transit agencies can decide what BRT really is. I'll agree that the description given by Aaronius most certainly IS BRT, likewise a project like Jacksonville's is also considered BRT. Los Angeles' Metro-Rapid is also called BRT and while part of it is on grade separated right of way, a good deal of it is in mixed traffic. The BRT title has also been endowed on the Las Vegas system which uses HOV and mixed lanes with fancy bus stops. Eugene has BRT with complete grade separation and even built drive lanes that look like concrete train track but it's speeds and frequent stops make it just another bus, albeit a "BRT BUS".

Quote
Again, a failure on the part of the bureaucrats to explain BRT does not negate the basic definition of BRT. A bus in mixed traffic without a dedicated right of way is not BRT. It's a fancy bus line.

Maybe so, but if the industry itself cannot decide what the hell it is then it remains a system of things, or cafe of bus toys. Here is what the various industry sites have to say about it:

QuoteDefinitions

    * The Federal Transit Administration broadly defines BRT as “combining the quality of rail transit and the flexibility of buses. It can operate on exclusive transitways, HOV lanes, expressways, or ordinary streets. A BRT system combines intelligent transportation systems technology, priority for transit, cleaner and quieter vehicles, rapid and convenient fare collection, and integration with land use policy.”
    * Lloyd Wright at the Institute for Transportation and Development Policy defines BRT as “high-quality, customer-oriented transit that delivers fast, comfortable and low-cost urban mobility.”
    * Professor Vukan Vuchic at the University of Pennsylvania challenges the word “Rapid” in the name Bus Rapid Transit, instead offering the term “Bus Semi-Rapid Transit” and arguing that “Rapid” should only be used when referring to exclusive-right-of-way rail transit.
    * Michael Baltes and Steven Polzin at the University of South Florida’s Center for Urban Transportation Research conclude the debate on defining BRT by saying that “regardless of what it’s called and how it’s defined, the underlying essence of the current interest in BRT is to use the best globally available technology to meaningfully improve overall transit service quality in the most effective manner possible. Heck, call it progress!”  http://www.cfte.org/trends/brt.asp

Quote

QuoteI think the guy/gal that thought up this expensive cockeyed scheme probably had the system Aaronius described in mind...

Actually, no. The entire point of implementing BRT over LRT or HRT (at least before the 'Mericans went a screwed up the language,) was to save money by reserving existing streets and their rights of way for buses only, while combining that with expanded avenues that incorporate exclusive right of way for the BRT system. It was a way to consolidate road/transit spending. Moreover, it's supposed to go "somewhere." Jacksonville's BRT plan looks like a commuter rail system. People drive to a parking lot off the highway and then board a bus. Hysterically, it actually builds wacky elevated BRT structures in the highway, instead of reserving existing lanes.

To put this another way, if the point of BRT is to duplicate the effects of LRT or HRT, the reason to pursue it is because it's cost-effective to do so. Jacksonville's vanity BRT plan most certainly is not the latter. And this line system through the central city is not the former.

More BRT Information from Seattle:

Quote
The idea that arose most prominently, in a November 13 op-ed in the Seattle Times, was a "solution" that has long been a dream of road supporters: A 150-mile network of so-called "bus rapid transit" lanes that would "cover the entire metro Puget Sound region at 60 mph, 24/7"; "support 'walkable' mixed-use neighborhoods"; carry far more riders than light rail or monorail; and include "clean... comfortable stops" that are "the equivalent of rail stations"â€"all at a tenth of the cost of a fixed-guideway system like the monorail.

Promises like these have been alluring cities since at least the 1960s, when bus manufacturer General Motors began aggressively pushing BRT as an alternative to rail. And, despite lingering concerns that buses don't offer the same stability and psychological appeal as trains, BRT's popularity has endured... But the realities of BRT have rarely lived up to its promises. In city after cityâ€"despite assurances that BRT would offer cheap, flexible, speedy transit serviceâ€"the technology has proven costly, inflexible, and anything but rapid....One problem in addressing the drawbacks of BRT is that no one, including its backers, seems able to agree on a single definition of the term. Some apply it only to grade-separated roadways (like the downtown Seattle bus tunnel, or Sound Transit's elevated "E3 Busway") that are reserved exclusively for buses. Others use it to describe a broad range of services that includes enhanced express bus service on HOV lanes, buses that move from dedicated bus lanes to mixed traffic, and express buses between the suburbs and the inner city... On the first two questions, the data is clear: BRT draws far fewer transit ridersâ€"and, importantly, far fewer new transit ridersâ€"than light rail or other fixed-rail systems... Because of the higher ridership, the cost per passenger mileâ€"a common measure of cost-effectivenessâ€"is actually lower in many cities, including Portland, for rail than it is for "affordable" BRT....
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=25353

Quote

QuoteIn other words, if you loved GW, BP, Mobil or Standard Oil, you'll probably love BRT.

That is vastly oversimplifying the argument, but I did find it funny as hell, so I'm callin' it out, yo

.

Glad you enjoyed it, if you haven't noticed sarcasm is my "Spiritual Gift!"

QuoteIs the "track" BRT picture from the O-Bahn busway in Australia?

YUP!
 
Old transportation planner's never die, they just lose track!

OCKLAWAHA

The photos with different characterizations of BRT make a good point.  The example that was captioned "This is real BRT" is from Bogota's Trans-Milenio.  I was there last year and found it to be great once it got out of downtown and on it's own right of way.  Downtown, where the beautiful articulated buses intermingled with pedestrians and cars, it was a total disaster.  Walking was faster.

The MetroBus system in Mexico City is viewed as a higher quality service than DF's heavy rail system, and it commands a higher fare.  http://www.metrobus.df.gob.mx/que_es_mb.html (http://www.metrobus.df.gob.mx/que_es_mb.html)

I'd be delighted if something like this came to Jacksonville, but recent evidence suggests they are either being incredibly stupid about it or are setting it up to fail.  It needs to be presented as a stand-alone and superior transit alternative, not just a minor enhancement of JTA's present mediocre product.  Instead of rolling it out piecemeal, JTA needs to start out with one complete route.  (One from the Airport to downtown to UNF, with a station at St. Johns Town Center, would be intelligent.)

The proposed system highlighted in an earlier posting gives me heartburn.  The system won't be able to compete with the automobile if routes are riddled with deviations, such as into the FSCJ Kent Campus.

QuoteThe only flaw in this simple explanation is LOS ANGELES. The city most known for it's love affair with the automobile is busting the seams of record after record in mass transit ridership. But typical of California, once they decided to go with it, (helped along by the mother of earthquakes which closed mountain passes) they went all out, BRT, LRT, Commuter Rail and Heavy Rail.  Los Angeles? Who would of thunk it?

The City of Angels is also one of my "homes" and you can't imagine my joy during the last visits at not having to drive ANYWHERE I wanted to go. All this and it's getting bigger and better every day.

It's not a flawed argument. LA basically ran out of choices to do the wrong thing instead of doing the right thing. I'm quite impressed with their transit growth, but remember, they waited until there weren't any more options but mass transit. They can't really build any more freeways (seriously.) Atlanta, by contrast, has an absurdly low density rate. If the region keeps growing like it has been, the Day of Reckoning for Atlanta will be here soon enough, but it ain't here yet.

And as for LA, they're in a period of transition, because while HRT and LRT use is up 2.49 and 5.12% respectively, bus use is down 4.18%, and overall ridership has actually dropped 2.53%. I suspect it's a temporary drop, however.

http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2010_q1_ridership_APTA.pdf

(Oh, and I'm not above critiquing DC: our overall ridership is down 10% this year.)

QuoteHey Aaronius, I like your presentation and suspect we agree at about 95%, Professional background perhaps?

Urban Planning lover, but advertising copywriter and brand developer by trade and cynicism.

QuoteMaybe so, but if the industry itself cannot decide what the hell it is then it remains a system of things, or cafe of bus toys.

That totally angers me. It's like "BRT" is purposefully made vague in definition just so any bus service can claim BRT status.

QuoteThe photos with different characterizations of BRT make a good point.  The example that was captioned "This is real BRT" is from Bogota's Trans-Milenio.  I was there last year and found it to be great once it got out of downtown and on it's own right of way.  Downtown, where the beautiful articulated buses intermingled with pedestrians and cars, it was a total disaster.  Walking was faster.

Well, in theory, you wouldn't need BRT downtown since you already have the SkyWay (like, it's already there JTA.) In practice, considering the state of downtown, there won't be any pedestrians to inconvenience anyway!

QuoteIs the "track" BRT picture from the O-Bahn busway in Australia?


YUP!

That may be the most insane thing ever thought up. Like, build a train, guys! You have the track!

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 27, 2010, 07:36:55 PM
many cities are adding BRT....even NYC is proposing it right through manhattan

That project is less about BRT and more about changing the fact that taking a bus along 34th is slower than walking.  This is not a problem anywhere in Jacksonville.

^Except in downtown.  You can walk between Springfield and several downtown destinations faster than taking most of the buses because of the insane loop system they are forced to run.

Like you said, that's because of the loop system.  The 34th Street proposal is designed to relieve the congestion that makes taking the bus along a straight line slower than walking.  (This is a problem with basically every NYC crosstown bus.)

Quote from: johnny_simpatico on July 29, 2010, 10:29:29 AM
The photos with different characterizations of BRT make a good point.  The example that was captioned "This is real BRT" is from Bogota's Trans-Milenio.  I was there last year and found it to be great once it got out of downtown and on it's own right of way.  Downtown, where the beautiful articulated buses intermingled with pedestrians and cars, it was a total disaster.  Walking was faster.

I'd be delighted if something like this came to Jacksonville, but recent evidence suggests they are either being incredibly stupid about it or are setting it up to fail.  It needs to be presented as a stand-alone and superior transit alternative, not just a minor enhancement of JTA's present mediocre product.  Instead of rolling it out piecemeal, JTA needs to start out with one complete route.  (One from the Airport to downtown to UNF, with a station at St. Johns Town Center, would be intelligent.

Wow Johnny you must be the first person I have ever heard from that likes BRT! Having lived in Colombia for several years, I'll take Medellin's METRO or METRO CABLE over the damn buses in Bogota any day... Hey and I won't have to sweep a pile of carbon off my tile floor every afternoon either.

Because Bogota is shaped like an enclosed rectangle, and Mexico City like a giant ball, these systems have performed better then most other bus projects. The trouble with TM is that the mayor of Bogota claims it created a TOD boom, which just isn't true. The new housing at the far ends of the BRT are "social housing" projects (read that getting them out of town and relocated) for the poor, imagine trying THAT in Jacksonville.
Jacksonville is shaped more like a "Union Jack" or series of "X's" with the narrows being downtown.

Because of Jacksonville's shape just about everything MUST cross through downtown. Building a stand alone BRT would be a waste of money when our commuter rail lines, and proposed Streetcar's would duplicate the service, to say nothing of the Skyway.  If we took those same BRT dollars and worked on a high quality system on Atlantic/Arlington Expressway (where their is no rail), JTB, Kings, Timuquana/103Rd, etc. then the BRT could feed our rail system with cross platform transfers. Imagine a BRT on Blanding from Kingsley to Wells to the Railroad... WOW... Even I'd campaign for that provided it was done for less then rail.

The current plan duplicating the Skyway and still missing Baptist, Aetna, Nemours, Wolfson, Medical Arts and Ronald McDonald House is downright ¡Estúpido! in the Latin American meaning of the word!




OCKLAWAHA

http://www.youtube.com/v/F7mI9GFeKC8&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1?color1=0x402061&amp;color2=0x9461ca"></param><param%20name=
Australia's O-Bahn


http://www.youtube.com/v/tPEK5Og6wW8&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1?color1=0x402061&amp;color2=0x9461ca"></param><param%20name=
Bogota's TransMilenio


http://www.youtube.com/v/IitmHhgOb5k&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1?color1=0x402061&amp;color2=0x9461ca"></param><param%20name=
Medellin's Metro

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on July 31, 2010, 10:38:44 AM
^Except in downtown.  You can walk between Springfield and several downtown destinations faster than taking most of the buses because of the insane loop system they are forced to run.

And eliminating that loop and adding amenities along the streamlined route is the primary purpose of the downtown "BRT"

That's what I thought.  However, I've since heard that this loop will still remain in place, despite the presence of the BRT lanes on Broad & Jefferson.  I do hope that I have heard wrong.

Still does not explain the insane duplication of the Southbank Skyway at the cost of service to the largest cluster of employees and patrons in the city.

Missing Baptist and the sundry buildings in that area is ¡Estúpido! ¡absolutamente!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on July 31, 2010, 02:03:13 PM
That's what I thought.  However, I've since heard that this loop will still remain in place, despite the presence of the BRT lanes on Broad & Jefferson.  I do hope that I have heard wrong.

I think some routes will remain as is....but others will use the new route...streamlining is starting to show up on some routes....JTA is calling it "system redesign"...but it is never as easy as it looks to restructure bus routes

Ock..........you forgot that Baptist has their own shuttle service! Why would they use JTA's?

Quote from: CS Foltz on July 31, 2010, 08:34:31 PM
Ock..........you forgot that Baptist has their own shuttle service! Why would they use JTA's?

No CS, I'm not talking about a glorified parking shuttle, but full fledged mass transit that takes one from the hospital into any corner of the city. It's what Mass Transit is suspposed to be, like the old Red Car's said, "Speed, Comfort, Safety."

(http://www.american-rails-forums.com/AR%20Images/Fallen%20Flags/PE_Logo.jpg)(http://www.oerm.org/pages/LARy_Descanso_casket_sm.jpg)
PE LOGO AND LOS ANGLES RAILWAY FUNERAL CAR DESCANSO


That streamlining you speak of TU, is another word for CUTTING SERVICE in Jacksonville. Route Consolidation, elimination, rationalzation, abandonment...  I was young but I rode my RED CARS into oblivion and I'm damned sure not going to stand for that again!

(http://laist.com/attachments/lindsayrebecca/LastTrainToOblivion.jpg)
The line I lived on lasted until 1963, the last PE route to shut down in favor of FREEways!


OCKLAWAHA

Well at least Baptist is thinking about their workers shuttle service or not! I do agree with your translation regarding streamlining! Fancy word for reducing service in an effort to artificially inflate ridership numbers for the BRT! I do not buy it! JTA has a propensity for cooking their numbers anyway to reflect what they want to happen or to reflect what their consultants reports says!

Quotemany cities are adding BRT....even NYC is proposing it right through manhattan

"Even NYC" is unsurprising. New York City vastly needs to expand their mass transit network. Basically any transit addition in New York City is going to be a success, because their population uses mass transit on a regular basis. They could add a monorail powered by rats in a cage and people would use it. What they would rather have, in lieu of BRT, is, of course, more of the subway. BRT in NYC is a supplement to their backbone, which is the subway itself.

As I've said before here, I'm not anti-BRT. Any mass transit system that is implemented correctly can have a positive effect. But the mega-BRT plan proposed by JTA doesn't have a vision in mind. It looks like a lot of parking lots off a highway, which doesn't promote mass transit usage. And this little tiny line in downtown is anything but BRT. Too many stops, not enough dedicated lane.

QuoteBus-only lanes coming to downtown Jacksonville in 2012
Project will cut parking spaces.

Bus-only lanes will be coming to downtown Jacksonville by the end of 2012.

The lanes will then expand to the north, southeast, southwest and east corridors of the city by the end of 2016 if the city gets funding for future phases of the project.

Officials with the Jacksonville Transportation Authority said the $12 million necessary to create the downtown lanes is set, with 80 percent of the funds coming from the federal government. Those lanes are expected to allow buses to move quicker through the downtown area, where about 80 percent of bus passengers travel, said Suraya Teeple, JTA transportation planning manager.

Buses will come by each stop every 10 minutes during peak times and every 15 minutes during other times, she said.

The lanes will be along portions of Bay, Jefferson, Broad and Forsyth streets north of the Acosta Bridge and on parts of Riverplace Boulevard, Kings Avenue and Prudential Drive on the Southside.

Full Article:
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-08-08/story/bus-only-lanes-coming-downtown-jacksonville-2012

"This isnt really possible in todays regulated rail environment."

Stephen, are you saying the problem would be the regulations or the business model or both?

stephen........lets not forget that Federal Funds will be paying for 80% (our tax dollars one more time)JTA is coming up with 10% and the City is coming up with the other 10%............this flat out amazes me! I thought that the City was broke? Yet John Boy and Company keep coming up with money for his pet projects! That last 20% is our money also! So basically we, the tax paying public, get to pay for all! I did not ask for this abortion of bus service by any stretch of the imagination! I asked for Rail........period plan and simple! For the $12 Million Dollars this is going to cost us, we could have had something that could have been expanded beyond the core! Now I see more bus end product on the horizen and it will just cost us even more over the long run! I can see them making the ten minute headways, since no one will be riding the stupid thing!  BRT won't have to stop to pick up what little riders there will be!

yawn

No one rides the dang thing-is there really some study done showing more peeps will ride the bus with this plan in place? I am not buying it.  Instead of taking away parking for new bus lanes-but in bike lanes, people will actually use those.

actually there are ridership projections...and believe me, FTA can be pretty tough in reviewing those...and without them, FTA would not have approved the study and funded the project

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 09, 2010, 05:00:22 PM
yawn

We are all very impressed with the apparent depth of your concern TU, perhaps you didn't know it but...

QuoteApparently, contrary to the view we have that if someone yawns at you he or she is being disrespectful, the opposite is true.

The conference heard that if people yawn at you, it means they fancy you. That is because a yawn can indicate a wide range of emotions and states: interest, stress, the desire for sex.

We owe this precious knowledge to respected Dutch academic Wolter Seuntjens. Seuntjens came up with the theory of the “erotic yawn” after noticing that sexologists were often consulted by people whose partners yawned when they were in bed.

SOURCE: "International Conference on Yawning” held in Paris.

Amazing to me that you can get all hot and bothered by Bus Rapid Transit!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: uptowngirl on August 09, 2010, 09:53:01 PM
No one rides the dang thing-is there really some study done showing more peeps will ride the bus with this plan in place? I am not buying it.  Instead of taking away parking for new bus lanes-but in bike lanes, people will actually use those.

you can force feed riders into it by modifying the bus system. By the same token, you can do this for rail. The major difference is your ridership pool will be smaller (choice riders will still elect to drive) and it WILL NOT spur transit oriented economic development.  However, that's not a goal of the transit authority which is why someone in local government and influence outside of JTA will have to step up to the plate.

thanks Ock...and yes I do "empathize" with CS  :D

Quote from: thelakelander on August 10, 2010, 07:41:50 AM

Quote from: uptowngirl on August 09, 2010, 09:53:01 PM
No one rides the dang thing-is there really some study done showing more peeps will ride the bus with this plan in place? I am not buying it.  Instead of taking away parking for new bus lanes-but in bike lanes, people will actually use those.

you can force feed riders into it by modifying the bus system. By the same token, you can do this for rail. The major difference is your ridership pool will be smaller (choice riders will still elect to drive) and it WILL NOT spur transit oriented economic development.  However, that's not a goal of the transit authority which is why someone in local government and influence outside of JTA will have to step up to the plate.

and unfortunately Lake, Federal rules prohibited cities from seriously counting economic development benefits when applying to get money for transit projects....it was all about efficiency (speed) and ridership....which is why streetcrs weren't eligible for funding until a few months ago.

This is in response to the JTA’s decision to build designated bus lines downtown as well as bus “rapid transit” (an oxymoron if there ever was one) lanes throughout the city.

I agree 100% with those of you who believe that JTA's bus transit boondoggle is the wrong move. Extensive bus service is fine for cities like New York, Chicago and Boston because they have strong urban centers with a healthy mix of residents and workers who don't mind riding the bus for 5, 10, or 20 blocks to work, lunch, a play, or to dinner.  Bus service is also vital to lower income persons who have no other means of transportation.  Jacksonville is probably not unique in the fact that the majority of regular bus riders are in the lower socio-economic range. For these individuals, a trip to the doctor or grocery store can take hours longer than for someone else with a car. But what other choice do they have?  Very few, if any. 

Unlike Jacksonville, many high income professionals in more urban/dense cities actually choose not to have cars (or use them sparingly) because they can either walk or perhaps take a relatively short bus ride to their destination.  Those with the financial means to choose to ride a bus do so because it is more convenient than driving, it takes a relatively short commitment (average of 15-30 minutes) and the bus stop is close to their origination and destination (within walking distance).  An excellent example of JTA’s success with this type of scenario is with the Riverside trolley. It is more convenient than driving (and finding a parking space) and it is a relatively short trip for downtown workers or residents to make. 

Here is what the city and JTA fail to acknowledge or are simply ignoring.  I have been emphasizing the word choose for a good reason. In order to make expanded bus service profitable, the JTA will have to convince more of the middle class sector to choose to abandon their cars and ride the bus to work and/or recreation (dinner, football game, theatre, etc.).  Mark my words-this is NOT going to happen in Jacksonville. 

Don't get me wrong. I live in Jacksonville. I like it a lot.  It has many great qualities. But there is NO way that a sufficient number of Jacksonville residents will choose to ride the bus because it fails the criteria mentioned above. It will not be more convenient than driving because it will require a prohibitive time commitment due to the overall disconnect between employment, entertainment, and residential areas. 

I really don't like to be negative and I try to look on the "bright" side of things but it blows my mind that the “powers that be” at city hall and JTA actually believe this is going to work.  If anything, take part of the money for this project and actually finish the Skyway Express (SE) to the sports complex. Talk about a major jump in ridership. Building additional bus lanes downtown will only compete with the SE, which is the worse thing that can happen.

Instead of taking a meandering bus ride from parking areas on the fringes of downtown (i.e. the convention center) to the sports complex (which is what currently happens), people could ride the SE from the Southbank and convention center directly to the sports complex.  And, if there were a couple of stations along the way, people could actually stop at the Landing or Bay Street for a drink or bite to eat and then hop back on the SE for a game or concert. Currently, buses whisk people away from the sports complex as quickly as possible, bypass the few night clubs and restaurants that downtown does have, and then drops them off at a parking lot on the edges of downtown.  It’s just as bad for people who park near the stadium.  Instead of a traffic flow that encourages them to stop on Bay Street or the Landing after a game, we have barricades and one way exits that only encourage, if not force, people to leave downtown after a game or concert. Does this make any sense?

Downtown business owners should be furious with the city and JTA for making it so difficult for people to explore downtown after a game or concert because of the current situation.  Is there any wonder that our downtown is struggling and cities like Charlotte have a thriving downtown nightlife?  Jacksonville city leaders and JTA, I implore you to reconsider this ill fated bus plan and go back and finish what your started with the Skyway Express.  By connecting downtown and the Southbank with the sports complex (2 or 3 sq. miles) via the SE, you will make it easier and more enjoyable for visitors and residents to explore our beautiful “river city by the sea.”  If the city and JTA can’t succeed in connecting this 3 square mile area, the heart of our city, what makes them believe they can connect the entire city through bus rapid transit. 

I know the JTA has been planning and pursuing BRT for more than ten years and they do not want that time and effort to have been wasted.  When they started, getting fixed rail was less of a possibility and they want transit in Jax.  These things do not change the fact that BRT in the JTA's current and past concepts are a bad idea and those ten years have been wasted and we should move on.  Fixed rail is infinitely better for the community tried and true.  Commuter rail and streetcar are proven modes that the public love lets not try to reinvent the wheel. Time spent and the JTA's perception that buses pretending to be trains are the easiest way to get Federal dollars should not take precedent over doing what is best for Jax.
All the BRT projects should be tabled until after extensive implementation of commuter rail and streetcar. Then if we need some BRT designed to support the fixed rail systems we can look at them.

We should not forget that the original studies that have grown into the proposed BRT corridors were pretty inaccurate.  We pointed out many fallacies in those reports during our early years.  Whatever comes out of it needs to be vetted thoroughly.

It stinks the JTA wants to go about this in the wrong order.  We have become such a good group here ready to take up their cause if they would go for the fixed rail solutions first.

from what I understand most of the folks who attended the meeting left in favor of the project....if you feel otherwise, you need to voice your opinion to JTA at these meetings or via e-mail....not on this site alone.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 02, 2010, 10:51:05 AM
from what I understand most of the folks who attended the meeting left in favor of the project....if you feel otherwise, you need to voice your opinion to JTA at these meetings or via e-mail....not on this site alone.

I didnt show up until late... so maybe there was a deluge of people that showed up at 430PM that I didnt know about.  But that certainly wasn't the case from the group of people present while I was there.

But you're right, more people should email JTA their comments.  The public meetings for the Riverside trolley were pretty empty as well.  The opportunity to engage is certainly omnipresent.  The people I have encountered within JTA have been very friendly and open to feedback.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 02, 2010, 10:51:05 AM
from what I understand most of the folks who attended the meeting left in favor of the project....if you feel otherwise, you need to voice your opinion to JTA at these meetings or via e-mail....not on this site alone.

I have sent many emails to the JTA and others and attended few meetings.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 02, 2010, 10:51:05 AM
from what I understand most of the folks who attended the meeting left in favor of the project....if you feel otherwise, you need to voice your opinion to JTA at these meetings or via e-mail....not on this site alone.

Being there for at least half of it, I'd be suprised if there were more than 15-20 people total, not counting the MJ related groups, JTA representatives and consultants.  I'd also say that even I'm not against improving that bus corridor with many of the concepts they proposed.  Timing and cost are my concerns. 

Also, I'd be suprised if anyone outside of us understands the potential negative impact the movement of this project could have on the adjacent commuter rail proposal.  Shine the proper light on it and the event becomes a JTA tar and feathering session.

Quote from: jacksoninjax on September 02, 2010, 12:08:11 AM

Unlike Jacksonville, many high income professionals in more urban/dense cities actually choose not to have cars (or use them sparingly) because they can either walk or perhaps take a relatively short bus ride to their destination.  Those with the financial means to choose to ride a bus do so because it is more convenient than driving, it takes a relatively short commitment (average of 15-30 minutes) and the bus stop is close to their origination and destination (within walking distance).  An excellent example of JTA’s success with this type of scenario is with the Riverside trolley. It is more convenient than driving (and finding a parking space) and it is a relatively short trip for downtown workers or residents to make. 

Here is what the city and JTA fail to acknowledge or are simply ignoring.  I have been emphasizing the word choose for a good reason. In order to make expanded bus service profitable, the JTA will have to convince more of the middle class sector to choose to abandon their cars and ride the bus to work and/or recreation (dinner, football game, theatre, etc.).  Mark my words-this is NOT going to happen in Jacksonville. 

As someone who has worked in an very urban core, I would like confirm these comments.

The most important criteria for transit for these urban dwellers when I spoke with them was "easy access to the airport" because they really didn't need a car to get around where parking is expensive (as well as insurance).

- Build the critical high speed link to the airport
- Start zoning for the critical urban core of office/commercial, retail and residential (mixed use).
- Develop enhancements (NOT GIVEAWAYS) to developers to meet deadlines, no up front cash!

I agree on the Sports Complex access as well. The highest use of transit by non-traditional transit users is for (duh!) sporting events.

Jacksoninjax hit it on the head.

 

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 02, 2010, 10:51:05 AM
from what I understand most of the folks who attended the meeting left in favor of the project....if you feel otherwise, you need to voice your opinion to JTA at these meetings or via e-mail....not on this site alone.

I tried to go to the meeting, but my car was in the shop and I could not figure out a bus route to get me there, I would have to walk about six blocks to the nearest bus stop, take an hour to get there, and walk another eight blocks to the meeting site '-)

Quote from: fieldafm on September 02, 2010, 11:00:11 AM
The people I have encountered within JTA have been very friendly and open to feedback.

Sadly, the same can't be said for the JTA people the public actually encounters on a daily basis...

Just taking a look at the Downtown BRT Preliminary Engineering Plans.  I know in the past some have asked how much a BRT station costs.  Here is the cost estimate from the 2008 report.

BRT Station Stops Estimates (2008 estimate):

$17,600 - Bus Pad Construction 11' x 120' @ $120/sq yard)

$25/sq ft - Boarding area construction

$25,000/each - Passenger shelter

$90,000 - Fare Collection Equipment (per platform)

$5,000 - Variable Message Board Equipment

$35,000 allowance - Site Furniture, Lighting, Bike Racks, Signage, Trash Receptacles

$10,000 allowance - Public Art

$182,000 Total per typical stop (excluding cost of Boarding area construction)

Multiply that times the number of stop's planned and the figures tell all!

That's a lot of money for a bus stop.

Quote$90,000 - Fare Collection Equipment (per platform)

For that amount of money you could have PEOPLE collecting the fares!  (What an idea!)

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 01, 2010, 12:45:19 PM
That's a lot of money for a bus stop.

It's why I believe BRT, as designed locally, is a farce to a degree.  Quite frankly, you can develop an efficient and reliable bus system without paying for many of these bells and whistles.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 01, 2010, 03:19:42 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 01, 2010, 12:45:19 PM
That's a lot of money for a bus stop.

It's why I believe BRT, as designed locally, is a farce to a degree.  Quite frankly, you can develop an efficient and reliable bus system without paying for many of these bells and whistles.

We could do without all of the "bells and whistles", if you wish to call them that........plain and simple,efficient routes and maybe some shelters........it could be pretty simple, but JTA insist's on its master plan from hell!

Actually thats an excellent idea, and you've touched on a big problem with the present us economic system. Automation has created a dearth of opportunities for unskilled labor (or so it's called) and replaced the "fallback" type jobs where people could get back on their feet with computerized machines.

Quote from: Dog Walker on October 01, 2010, 03:15:42 PM

Quote$90,000 - Fare Collection Equipment (per platform)

For that amount of money you could have PEOPLE collecting the fares!  (What an idea!)

Chris,  It's probably a topic for another thread, maybe "Where have all the Jobs Gone?", but I think it is not just "fallback" jobs that are a problem, but entry jobs too.

In my opinion, one of the unintended side effects of the minimum wage laws is the high number of unemployed and unemployable youths in our population.  There are so few jobs where they can learn to hold a job because their wages would be too high.

Example:  Take the kids who take your tickets at the cinema multiplex.  They take your ticket, point out which theater your movie is in and pick up the trash when the movie is over.  What are they learning?  How to make a career as a ticket taker?  No.

What they are learning is how to get to work on time, how to take directions from a supervisor, how to interact with the public, how to dress appropriately, maybe even how to give directions to a more junior employee.  All extremely valuable skills for anyone in any kind of employment.

When you make this sort of entry level job too expensive, it gets automated out of existence i.e. automated ticket selling machines at the bus stations and the opportunity to learn how to be employed goes away.

Right now, the best place for a young person to learn these skills is to enlist in the military where the minimum wage laws certainly don't apply.

Didn't know that Stephen.  Thanks for the information.  What is the lower wage for teens?

You really can't analyze wages in a vacuum though dogwalker. That's not going to solve the problem. If you let businesses pay as little as they can, regardless of what the cost of living is, then of course that's exactly what they'll do, and the poverty problem in this country will continue to grow worse. The problem is that wages are already so low that we've created a country that a big chunk of which can't afford to buy the products and services we produce. Which causes the need for more costs cuts as businesses don't want to accept lower profits. Which continues the vicious cycle.

Quote from: Dog Walker on October 02, 2010, 09:09:04 AM
Chris,  It's probably a topic for another thread, maybe "Where have all the Jobs Gone?", but I think it is not just "fallback" jobs that are a problem, but entry jobs too.

In my opinion, one of the unintended side effects of the minimum wage laws is the high number of unemployed and unemployable youths in our population.  There are so few jobs where they can learn to hold a job because their wages would be too high.

Example:  Take the kids who take your tickets at the cinema multiplex.  They take your ticket, point out which theater your movie is in and pick up the trash when the movie is over.  What are they learning?  How to make a career as a ticket taker?  No.

What they are learning is how to get to work on time, how to take directions from a supervisor, how to interact with the public, how to dress appropriately, maybe even how to give directions to a more junior employee.  All extremely valuable skills for anyone in any kind of employment.

When you make this sort of entry level job too expensive, it gets automated out of existence i.e. automated ticket selling machines at the bus stations and the opportunity to learn how to be employed goes away.

Right now, the best place for a young person to learn these skills is to enlist in the military where the minimum wage laws certainly don't apply.

I wasn't suggesting that we do away with the minimum wage at all, just commenting on what I think are some of the side effects.  Stephen says the minimum for teens is lower than for adults.  If it is low enough then it should offset some of the side effects, but if it is like a buck lower then it probably doesn't have much impact and some additional solutions need to be found.

I had the opportunity to spend a couple of days on an air craft carrier that was on a training cruise two years ago and was hugely impressed with the intensity and quality of the hands-on training that the young people were getting.  Also very impressed with the responsibility they were given, under close supervision, for very important tasks.  Watched a young woman who couldn't have been more than 19 act as helm for the entire ship.

You could just feel the pride and confidence that came off all of the youngsters on board and I could not help with wishing that we could give more of our young people the same opportunities for accomplishment at that early stage in their adulthood. 

I don't know about the other services, but I can tell you for sure that the Navy is doing an outstanding job of turning kids into young adults.

But that's the thing. Naval officers make many multiples of minimum wage. If the military paid what private employers like walmart pay, nobody would enlist and we wouldn't have a military, or else you wouldn't have anyone qualified to do anything. The reason they undertake a dangerous job, in addition to patriotism of course, is because they make a good living doing it. You get whatcha pay for!

Quote from: Dog Walker on October 02, 2010, 01:37:13 PM
I wasn't suggesting that we do away with the minimum wage at all, just commenting on what I think are some of the side effects.  Stephen says the minimum for teens is lower than for adults.  If it is low enough then it should offset some of the side effects, but if it is like a buck lower then it probably doesn't have much impact and some additional solutions need to be found.

I had the opportunity to spend a couple of days on an air craft carrier that was on a training cruise two years ago and was hugely impressed with the intensity and quality of the hands-on training that the young people were getting.  Also very impressed with the responsibility they were given, under close supervision, for very important tasks.  Watched a young woman who couldn't have been more than 19 act as helm for the entire ship.

You could just feel the pride and confidence that came off all of the youngsters on board and I could not help with wishing that we could give more of our young people the same opportunities for accomplishment at that early stage in their adulthood. 

I don't know about the other services, but I can tell you for sure that the Navy is doing an outstanding job of turning kids into young adults.

The young enlisted seamen I was talking about don't make anywhere near the minimum wage.  On the carrier they were twelve on twelve off six and seven days a week for six months deployment.

How many hours is that?  What does a sailor just out of basic earn?

As far as I am concerned, military officers in any service earn every penny and every benefit they get.

We are way off the thread.  Sorry admins, I'll quit.

Quote from: Dog Walker on October 03, 2010, 12:46:28 PM
The young enlisted seamen I was talking about don't make anywhere near the minimum wage.  On the carrier they were twelve on twelve off six and seven days a week for six months deployment.

How many hours is that?  What does a sailor just out of basic earn?

As far as I am concerned, military officers in any service earn every penny and every benefit they get.

We are way off the thread.  Sorry admins, I'll quit.

Don't get me wrong Dogwalker, I also think our military earn every cent they are paid and then some. But my point was that they're not in the same boat (excuse the pun since we're talking Navy!) as minimum wage earners in society, because they make more than minimum wage.

You can't factor in the off-duty time when they're on base or shipside because they're also getting free housing, food, clothes, medical, etc., etc., during that time. So they are compensated for the additional time invested, but not directly via their paycheck. Even so, an E1 (the lowest available pay grade) still makes more than minimum wage without even factoring in any of the additional benefits or services they get.

It appears JTA is finally moving with their long delayed plans for bus rapid transit in downtown.

QuoteJacksonville rapid transit bus contract out for bid in January

Two years from now Downtown Jacksonville will have a new bus route that travels faster and farther.
The Jacksonville Transportation Authority plans to let out bids for the first phase of its Bus Rapid Transit System at the beginning of next year, agency CEO Nat Ford said.

"The design is 90 percent completed," he said. "The city council needs to approve a continuing control agreement (to assure project implementation), and the Federal Transit Administration needs to approve our final design."

full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/10/11/jacksonville-rapid-transit-bus.html

QuoteBRT's are sophisticated bus systems that have their own dedicated lanes on city streets. They are an effective substitute for light rail, running longer distance between stops and using stations where passengers pay before boarding, at a fraction of the cost of rail.

Come on Carole....

BRT isn't an effective substitute for LRT.  It's a different animal altogether, especially BRT-lite (which is what we're getting).  The only people telling you it's an effective substitute for a fraction of the cost are people trying to sell you on BRT at the expense of something else.  That type of sentiment does transit in general a great disservice.

A pretty good recitation of JTA's talking points.  What about "reporting"?

I'm still incredibly dumbfounded that this project is actually going through. 

I can only guess that it was the 'use it or lose it' situation with the federal grant money, but in this case, I think they should have 'lost' it.

What is this 'downtown loop' that the article is referring to?  I'm really only aware of the Lem Turner and Phillips legs.

Downtown BRT Linky: http://www.jtafla.com/JTAFuturePlans/Bus/Default.aspx?page=Downtown%20Phase%20I&pid=14

Quote from: Charles Hunter on October 14, 2013, 10:07:11 PM
Downtown BRT Linky: http://www.jtafla.com/JTAFuturePlans/Bus/Default.aspx?page=Downtown%20Phase%20I&pid=14

Thanks. 

Cursory glance:

They're duplicating the existing skyway from the Convention Center to Kings Ave. Station and they're making a loop to nowhere past the courthouse on Broad and back down Jefferson?  Genius! 

Isn't that nowhere loop already served by the Riverside Trolley?  You know, for all of those people residents that are trying to get from the courthouse to 5 points.

This will be the downtown part for each of the suburban BRT routes, it isn't really a 'stand alone' route or loop.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on October 14, 2013, 10:24:28 PM
This will be the downtown part for each of the suburban BRT routes, it isn't really a 'stand alone' route or loop.

Fantastic.  Instead of one route duplicating existing infrastructure and looping around one of the more desolate parts of town, we'll have 4?

Tell me again why this is moving forward.

MY DISCLAIMER: BRT IS NOT BAD, IN FACT BRT IS GREAT, however don't sell this as rail on rubber tires. Don't lie about conversion to rail at a later date. Don't tell us it's 'just like rail, as fast as rail, as accepted as rail, as ground changing as rail, or cheaper then rail (more and more studies are coming out that suggest just the opposite is true).  Do not pee on my leg and tell me its raining.

It appears that it has taken us a year to discover that perhaps our new executive director at JTA is just as willing to perpetrate ridiculous BRT myths, claims and fabrications to make nice with the federal check book as his predecessors. Someone with Mr. Fords resume has had enough experience with streetcars, commuter rail and buses to know better, likewise our own Brad Thoburn also knows he is being something short of honest. In a city like Atlanta, New Orleans, San Francisco, Charlotte, Norfolk or even Miami, this wouldn't be as critical, people in those cities understand mass transit and they know what it can and can't do. Unfortunately Jacksonville hasn't had any real balanced mass transit since about 1932 and the city's collective memory of transit 'facts' lands somewhere between 'buses are modern and flexible' and 'streetcars are 19Th Century technology.'

QuoteBRT's are sophisticated bus systems that have their own dedicated lanes on city streets. They are an effective substitute for light rail, running longer distance between stops and using stations where passengers pay before boarding, at a fraction of the cost of rail.

BRT systems are indeed sophisticated systems provided the investment is of such a level that they have dedicated lanes and exclusive right-of-way. To achieve that level of 'sophisticated service' the investment will approach if not exceed the cost of light rail. BRT has achieved the ridership of light rail in only a couple of locations and both of those have required substantial injections of cash. A BRT application such as JTA is planning is considered BRT-LITE and these buses will run in mixed traffic subject to the same delays as all of the other traffic, brand it, paint it, shoot off fireworks from the roof tops, in the end its just another bus. Such a bus as BRT-LITE can not approach the performance of light-rail, and it will not come anywhere close to any type of rail in ridership, add to this repaving and replacement of vehicles every 10-12 years, and BRT will prove to be anything but an effective substitute.

QuoteJacksonville's system will have a Downtown loop and four other corridors that feed into it from the North, East, Southeast and Southwest.

Mr. Ford wasn't in town two weeks before he met with stephendare and myself and took serious note of the long, wasted 'loop' through downtown. Nevermind that the city and it's people attended countless dog and pony shows where they loudly told JTA they did not want this project, JTA is moving ahead and doing exactly what it planned to do in the first place. Sorry folks this is Skyway take II.

Quote"Bus rapid transit helps people move longer distances through the city and to do it quicker," said Brad Thoburn, JTA's vice president of long-range planning and system development. "Today, people get frustrated when they travel from one side of town to Downtown, because it takes too long. A BRT will give them faster and more frequent service. It will become a backbone that all of the local routes feed into."

Perhaps Brad would like to explain how a bus running in regular traffic lanes is going to be any faster after we paint 'BRT' on its side, then a bus on the same road today?

QuoteLight rail systems can cost as much as $25 million to $50 million per mile, Thoburn said, whereas BRT's usually cost from $3 million to $10 million. Jacksonville's will cost $2 million per mile, because the city didn't have to purchase a lot of right-of-way.

This is true, and toilet seats can cost upwards of $200,000 dollars (NASA) but this doesn't mean that our toilet seats have to cost as much.

QuoteFord said a BRT is a better choice for Jacksonville's ridership than light rail.

This statement was either made by someone with absolutely zero knowledge of rail transit or it was a completely unsubstantiated spur of the moment fabrication cut from whole cloth. As we know that Mr. Ford has experienced then what facts are on the table to prove this? Based on what? We have zero experience with rail since 1936, which makes this wildly presumptive.

Quote"The funding is not there for a light rail solution at this time," he said. "The (population) density would need to further develop to support an investment in rail, and we're not there yet. We have a density that clearly fits a BRT model."
Because a BRT uses infrastructure similar to light rail, such as dedicated transit corridors and stations, the system could be converted to rail once the city's population density supports it, Ford said.

Conversion has never been done in this country. Build BRT and you'll live with BRT, end of story. The idea that there is no funding for a rail solution at this time is comical as it would require JTA to actually do the study and apply for the grants which they clearly have not done. There was a token survey study of a heritage streetcar in Riverside but nothing approaching a corridor service. Anyone in the business of mass transit can tell you transit is a density builder, using good planning, grants and proper application, rail will create the density that some perceive is needed, something buses have failed to do as they do not foster large scale transit oriented development.

QuoteJacksonville's system will cost $110 million and, when finished, will be one of the largest in the Southeast, Ford said. Eighty percent of the funding comes from the Federal Transit Administration, 10 percent from the state and 10 percent from the JTA.

'BOHICA' JACKSONVILLE!

From a recent BRT power point presentation by the National BRT Institute:

"In Cleveland, BRT was marketed as rubber-tired rail." ...interesting, I wonder how many light rail projects have been marketed as steel wheeled bus?

"The Cleveland Health Line BRT cost $27.7 million dollars per mile." ...More then MANY streetcar and some light rail projects.

And who produced this lovely presentation where I pulled these comments? None other then FDOT, CUTR and PARSONS BRINCKERHOFF, sound familiar?

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 14, 2013, 10:38:14 PM

Quote from: Charles Hunter on October 14, 2013, 10:24:28 PM
This will be the downtown part for each of the suburban BRT routes, it isn't really a 'stand alone' route or loop.

Fantastic.  Instead of one route duplicating existing infrastructure and looping around one of the more desolate parts of town, we'll have 4?

Tell me again why this is moving forward.

Federal money has already been allocated.  For a cash strapped agency, that's pretty hard to turn down. Overall, the concept isn't a bad thing for Jacksonville. It's just a little out there to believe that (A) this can be converted into LRT, (B) is an effective substitute for LRT, (C) is actually BRT, and (D) that Jax is not dense enough for LRT.

(A) - Buses are sharing existing roadway lanes with cars.  Think Charlotte Sprinter, Kansas City Max, etc. not Cleveland Health Line or Ottawa Transitway. Converting something like this to LRT means you'll be taking lanes out of FDOT facilities for a train. Not happening....and IMO, that would be a bad idea anyway.

(B) - You really only hear this substitute for rail by BRT salesman.  You never hear roadway proponents sell out one road for another.  They typically fight for funding and acceptance of getting all of them built at the expense of alternative modes like transit. Lately, there's been a series of stories about BRT vs LRT, Streetcar vs Bike Share, etc.  Pitting these things against each other isn't an effective implementation strategy in the long term.  Instead, we need to learn how to plan and incrementally implement all of them, if they are deemed most effective for the particular corridors/populations they're destined to serve.

Actually, BRT works bests when it's a part of an integrated transit network.  Take the Health Line for example.  Cleveland also has a city wide network of heavy rail and LRT lines that the Health Line complements and feeds riders into.  Locally, we need to make sure our network complements the skyway as opposed to competing with it for limited ridership.  Same goes for commuter rail...if and when that ever comes on line.  All of these things should feed riders into one another.

(C) - I know this is being called BRT for funding purposes but we're not getting dedicated transit lanes and for the most part we don't need them anyway.  However, because we aren't getting dedicated transit lanes, that's the reason the cost is low.  What we're getting is called BRT-lite by many in the transportation industry.  A real BRT system (the kind some claim can be converted into LRT at twice the original expense) will easily cost you +$25 million/mile. At $3 million per mile, you're paying for a branded bus and improved stops that will run on existing streets with existing auto/truck traffic. There's nothing wrong with this but it's good to know and understand upfront that the service and the impact on the surrounding built environment will be dramatically different. 

(D) - The dense argument is one of those things we keep siloing ourselves into.  Overall, Jax may not be dense enough for LRT or whatever to be constructed to Cecil Field, Mandarin, etc. but neither is Norfolk, Atlanta, Charlotte, San Diego, etc.  You don't build these systems based off overall density.  You build them to address specific corridors where the network of viable destinations are already in place (ex.San Diego Trolley Green Line) or you envision a different type of dense environment that you want see spring up around them (ex.Detroit M1 Streetcar).  With that said, I'm more of a proponent for a streetcar connecting downtown with surrounding walkable neighborhoods moreso than LRT down any of the proposed BRT-lite routes. LRT really doesn't make sense along the low density and sprawly corridors that JTA has chosen for bus rapid transit.

Overall, my advice would be to sell whatever we're getting on the benefits that it will bring specifically, such as more frequent, attractive, reliable, efficient and easy to understand service. One thing I've learned over the years to engaging the public from both ends of the table is that public isn't stupid. Anyone who's taken LRT knows BRT is nowhere near the quality of LRT or that it generates the same level of excitement or Transit Oriented Development (TOD) stimulation.  Nat Ford even said this himself back when he was at Muni in San Francisco.  Crazy enough, we have a quote that was in an 2010 MJ story on streetcars:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-aug-streetcars-waterfronts-the-f-market-wharves-line

QuoteSan Francisco's streetcar line is an integral part of the Bay Area's transit system.  Nathaniel Ford, executive director of San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency, said daily ridership peaks at 24,000 during the summer tourist season but added that the line also gets heavy use by daily commuters connecting to light rail and the city's subway system.

He said streetcars do more for economic development than buses. "Rail projects are very expensive, but tend to be permanent.  And you get the economic development around stops that you normally don't see with bus operations."

full article: http://www.stltoday.com/business/article_19a93293-77db-570c-b3ac-a720bea8bf14.html

My ultimate fear is that if we go around selling the public on something that isn't necessarily true (BRT is LRT on rubber wheels, it stimulates TOD just like rail, etc.), when the system is actually up, people end up being disappointed because it doesn't live up to the sales job. When this happens, it negatively impacts people's opinion of transit altogether and makes future funding initiatives more difficult to succeed. IMO, it's always best to keep it real by selling and marketing what something actually does.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 14, 2013, 10:49:38 PM

Quote"Bus rapid transit helps people move longer distances through the city and to do it quicker," said Brad Thoburn, JTA's vice president of long-range planning and system development. "Today, people get frustrated when they travel from one side of town to Downtown, because it takes too long. A BRT will give them faster and more frequent service. It will become a backbone that all of the local routes feed into."

Perhaps Brad would like to explain how a bus running in regular traffic lanes is going to be any faster after we paint 'BRT' on its side, then a bus on the same road today?

In defense of Brad, I can see how the proposed BRT-lite improvements will provide faster and more frequent service than what those corridors are getting today.  For example, if you accept the federal cash, you'll have to provide 10-15 minute headways.  Much of the headways on many of these corridors aren't anywhere close to that today.  Also, because the buses will make limited stops, some time should be saved there.  When I look at what's proposed, the operational improvements are the major positives of what JTA should be selling to the public. 

Sometimes a picture or a short promotional video can visually illustrate what a thousand words can't.  Here's a brief video of the Kansas City MAX BRT.  The JTA MAX (same name) will basically be a carbon copy of what Kansas City implemented a few years back.

http://www.youtube.com/v/c8Pj4uAHk2E

If you believe this is like LRT on rubber wheels or that you can go back and convert this to LRT, I'm your long lost  Nigerian prince, who will split my long lost gold with you if you're willing to share your bank account information with me.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/968122049_Va5B6-M.jpg)

There was talk of the BRT buses being able to make the lights turn green. Is that still the case? If so, Why not just follow in your car behind the bus?

^I haven't seen JTA's latest design plans but queue jumps at major intersections would resolve that issue. 

(http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/graphics/english/transit/supportive-guideline/2.2.5.gif)

Now, if you're on a really congested corridor, you can get screwed regardless of the presence of queue jumps and dedicated lanes.  During rush hour a few months back, my ride on the Cleveland Health Line took +40 minutes to go roughly six miles between University Circle and Tower City. One of the major issues were cars backing up into the street while making left turns at major intersections. Green light or not, you can't go when there's a vehicle sitting in your way.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Cleveland-Health-Line-BRT/i-q4BhMpj/0/L/IMG_20130612_170702-L.jpg)
A phone pic I snapped on the Health Line while waiting for cars blocking our dedicated lanes to move.

I beleive there are plans to implement transit signal priority (TSP) along major routes throughout Jacksonville....and possibly 1 or 2 queue jumps in the downtown area

So, Lake, after reading your points and reasonings A-D, I'm still not seeing it. 

You said, "Federal money has already been allocated.  For a cash strapped agency, that's pretty hard to turn down.", well, is this project being 110% financed by the Feds?  If we are paying $.01 into this, then we're wasting money on an inferior product than what's already existing. 

Tell me again why we can't just restructure the schedule and use the skyway as the feeder system it was intended to be to accomplish everything that's being proposed.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 15, 2013, 10:03:35 AM
Tell me again why we can't just restructure the schedule and use the skyway as the feeder system it was intended to be to accomplish everything that's being proposed.

Going this route, you'd have to forget about instantly adding all the bells and whistles that federal money brings (ex. money to purchase new buses, etc.).  However, I actually agree with you that we could get away by just restructuring routes to provide the service desired.

An analogy (probably not a good one) to express my inability to understand why this is a good thing:

I have a car that's not being using near its full potential. 

You offer me $1,000 to help fix it and make it faster.

I accept your $1,000, knowing that I'm still going to have to spend an additional $1,000 of my own money to make the modifications.

I now have something, shiny and new, that still isn't really any faster than what I had before and is now costing me an additional $500 / month in additional maintenance.

or.....

I decline your $1,000 for the time being.  Using some parts I have laying around in the garage, upgrade my existing car into something that actually performs nicely.  After demonstrating my new performance car, I can now ask you for $10,000 to add some features to my car that weren't even an option before, and, based on my increased performance, you don't even need me to front any additional money.

I guess that would be kind of like consolidating functions into space we already own and improving efficiency and utilization of existing transportation assets. Of course, this requires planning kind of like what Miami is doing .....

http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2013/10/15/giant-bus-station-new-rail-hub/

"The goal is to combine passenger bus stops and layover points, which serve as rest zones for drivers, into a central terminal ..."

I wonder how much we could save utilizing prime osborn rather than building a new facility.

well the new Miami complex cost about $1.3 Billion....I'm sure we can do some pretty awesome thing with that kind of money too!

There's also the issue of the Prime Osborn still being a convention center.  Like it or not, Jax is in the convention business to stay.  Either we'll have to move it out or figure out a better way to make it a shared facility.

The new Miami center is a lot more than just a transportation center. It includes significant commercial, retail and residential development. The cost of all these additional items and not to mention, the cost of elevating a significant amount of train track to avoid crossings and traffic through downtown Miami, is included in your figure. We could do quite a bit for quite a bit less. To compare the two stations is not even possible.

You are probably right Lake but the current proposed configuration and location of the new greyhound station is crap.  I wish we had some real leadership and a plan .. preferably for more than 5 days out and preferably that doesn't require us to waste a lot of money undoing the decisions made previously without a plan.