A. Call to Order/Verification of Quorum
1. Approval of Minutes from June 23, 2010
2. Submittal of Speaker’s Cards
B. Deferred Items
C. Consent Agenda
D. Condemned Properties
1. 125 East 3rd Street
2. 1325 North Laura Street
3. 1320 North Ionia Street
E. Landmark
1. LS-10-1 â€" Old City Cemetery
F. Certificates of Appropriateness
COA-10-407 2216 Oak Street Riverside/Avondale- Demolition
G. Certificate of Appropriateness / Work in Violation
H. OOAs & Minor Modifications to previously approved COAs
I. New Business
1. 3934 McGirts Boulevard â€" Demolition
J. Information
K. Design Issues
L. Old Business
1. Administrative Review Policy
2. Condemned Properties Subcommittee
M. Addendums
N. Adjournment
This is the agenda for this month. I saw no full demos on the agenda this month except for the Mcgirts Blvd. area & the one in Riverside on Oak St.
3:00 P.M. Conference Room 851, 8th Floor, Ed Ball Building
I believe you will find that the condemned properties - all three of which are in Historic Springfield - are actually before the commission to seek approval for putting them on the FORMAL TRACK TO DEMOLITION.
Odd that they seem to do this in threes and just about every month. This nonsense must stop.
Main house:1320 Ionia
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/93sportie/SOS/sos001.jpg)
Guest house:1320 Ionia
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/93sportie/SOS/sos002.jpg)
125 E. 3rd.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/93sportie/SOS/sos003.jpg)
125 E. 3rd.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/93sportie/SOS/sos004.jpg)
1325 Laura
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/93sportie/SOS/sos005.jpg)
1325 Laura
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/93sportie/SOS/sos006.jpg)
1325 Laura
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/93sportie/SOS/sos007.jpg)
Thanks roadking and thanks for taking the time to take and post pictures.
All 3 of these homes have multiple vacant lots next or right near to them.
We can not continue to lose our density.
They don't look like they are going to fall over yet. I don't see what the rush is to knock them down. Who needs to be contacted to save these?
The house on 3rd street is only one of three historic houses on the north side of that block. The others are gone.
The property record card states that Lena Castro owns this house. Is this an owner requested demolition?
I haven't been in the Oak Street one, but it has sufferered from SIGNIFICANT fire damage. It's in far worse shape than any of the ones pictured.
Please send an email of opposition to Lisa in the HPC Office:
sheppard@coj.net
She and this office is our voice of reason, support, and opposition.
QuoteMothballing Historic Buildings
By The Old House Web
Sharon C. Park, AIA
When all means of finding a productive use for a historic building havebeen exhausted or when funds are not currently available to put a deterioratingstructure into a useable condition, it may be necessary to close up thebuilding temporarily to protect it from the weather as well as to secureit from vandalism.
This process, known as mothballing, can be a necessaryand effective means of protecting the building while planning the property'sfuture, or raising money for a preservation, rehabilitation or restorationproject. If a vacant property has been declared unsafe by building officials,stabilization and mothballing may be the only way to protect it from demolition.
more...http://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-advice/mothballing-historic-buildings.shtml
Where is the Ed Ball building? I am going to be able to make this meeting (a little late- but still make it!).
It's right by Hemming Plaza. 214 N Hogan St. (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=214+N.+Hogan+St.+Jacksonville,+FL+32202&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=214+N+Hogan+St,+Jacksonville,+Duval,+Florida+32202&gl=us&ei=NdROTIzAL4ODnQeQ6NCCCA&ved=0CBQQ8gEwAA&ll=30.328848,-81.660688&spn=0.003348,0.006641&z=18)
Thanks Lunican!
Tomorrow, Wednesday, July 28th at 3:00 P.M. Conference Room 851, 8th Floor, Ed Ball Building
As an FYI, I did not list all the coa's and other business for Wednesdays meeting unless it was pertinent to the demos. If you want a copy of the entire agenda, pm me for a copy.
Quote from: 02roadking on July 26, 2010, 05:32:50 PM
125 E. 3rd.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/93sportie/SOS/sos003.jpg)
125 E. 3rd.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/93sportie/SOS/sos004.jpg)
Compare the picture below, taken around 1925, to the second photo of 125 E. 3rd. I didn't know until tonight where the house in my photograph was located, but here it is! These little girls lived next door with their mother, Queenie MacDonald Maxwell, who was the widow of David Elwell Maxwell Jr. Queenie was an amazing woman who became a real estate developer after her husband's early death left her financially responsible for three young girls. Sadly, her house will probably be torn down soon - it was badly damaged in a fire last year. Before moving to East 3rd Queenie and her daughters lived in my house at 1252 Hubbard, which was built by their grandfather Elwell Maxwell - a celebrated confederate officer who was seriously wounded in the battle of Atlanta but went on to fight at Natural Bridge and became one of the most prominent railroad men in the United States. He assembled and ran much of Seaboard Air Line Railroad and its predecessor lines. I was given this photo by his great grandson, whose mother Sarah Maxwell Babbit is on the right. Mr. Babbit had hoped it was my house, as I have been searching for photos that will help me renovate his great grandfather's home. I was disappointed to find that it wasn't my house, but now I'm hopeful it may prove valuable to someone else. This house likely has a rich history, too, and someone should make it beautiful again.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs102.ash2/38442_1503424876319_1555145841_1246050_7210358_n.jpg)
There MUST be a way to defer demolition of these places.. Seems to me ,if they were properly secured, and made to LOOK presentable ( Lawns kept mowed ,etc) that this could buy time for them..
IMO... alot of the issue here is MONEY... no one buying the properties, no one fixing them up, no one securing them....and the city, pardon the term , seems to have a Bo^@r for getting these places destroyed, and it is wrong..
PS 4 has been deferred and deferred and deferred...and I believe part of that has been BECAUSE the owner over and over and over and OVER again secured the building (only for the next day, some homeless person or kid wanting to get inside to further destroy the interior) ..but it comlplied with the complaints of code enforcement..AT TREMENDOUS cost over the years to do this... Had this not been done , Historic Landmark or not, demolition probably would have been pushed through . The same may HAVE to happen for these incredible buildings... though it is true they need alot of work...it is not like they are going to collapse.
Quote
Mothballing Historic Buildings
When all means of finding a productive use for a historic building have been exhausted or when funds are not currently available to put a deteriorating structure into a useable condition, it may be necessary to close up the building temporarily to protect it from the weather as well as to secure it from vandalism. This process, known as mothballing, can be a necessary and effective means of protecting the building while planning the property's future, or raising money for a preservation, rehabilitation or restoration project. If a vacant property has been declared unsafe by building officials, stabilization and mothballing may be the only way to protect it from demolition.
more...http://www.nps.gov/hps/tps/briefs/brief31.htm
Cool story Fixit.
Quote from: 02roadking on July 28, 2010, 06:54:11 AM
Cool story Fixit.
The point I want to make is that ALL of these houses have a cool story. We need to tell the stories and convince the City that the houses need to be protected, not demolished.
Today 3:00 P.M. Conference Room 851, 8th Floor, Ed Ball Building
Does anyone know what this means (Posted by SPAR on the MySpringfield Site):
HPC Agenda July 28, 2010
by SPAR Council » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:12 am
Final Agenda July 28 2010 doc.pdf
We apologize for the lateness of this post. The JHPC secretary is out and we had to make several phone calls to get the file sent to us. Also, please note that Brenda Boydston, SPAR's Executive Director, has asked to have the condemned structures deferred.
(61.72 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
Does this mean HPC is NOT going to discuss the houses on the schedule?
I know some residents took time off work for this, myself included and I am going to be very disturbed if SPAR has asked for the deferral of this topic, I know SPAR is VERY aware a lot of us plan on going to this meeting and having our voices heard on the unacceptable practice of demolishing our houses.
So apparently SPAR has asked to defer the discussion of these properties. Games, and more Games from this obsolete entity. I wonder if we should still go and force the topic? I mean SPAR does not speak for me, so who are they to request a deferal?
The condemned properties will not be addressed as far as their placement on the Formal Track or not due to Elaine Lancaster, the Code Enforcement officer, not being able to attend the meeting. However, the Commission is well aware of the concerns and the fact that many of you are planning on attending the HPC meeting afternoon therefore the Chairman will address the overall demolition issue and give those wishing to speak an opportunity to do so.
Autumn L Martinage
Historic Preservation Planner
Planning and Development Department
City of Jacksonville
We are all still planning on going and expressing our concern over the entire process
Please go to the meeting!
HPC needs to hear our voice of the necessity if preservation.
Go, please!
I'm at a God awful 2 day mandated conference and can't. Please go!!!
And Autumn, thanks for posting!
Quote from: stephendare on July 28, 2010, 01:34:22 PM
Quote from: HPC_Autumn on July 28, 2010, 01:22:05 PM
The condemned properties will not be addressed as far as their placement on the Formal Track or not due to Elaine Lancaster, the Code Enforcement officer, not being able to attend the meeting. However, the Commission is well aware of the concerns and the fact that many of you are planning on attending the HPC meeting afternoon therefore the Chairman will address the overall demolition issue and give those wishing to speak an opportunity to do so.
Autumn L Martinage
Historic Preservation Planner
Planning and Development Department
City of Jacksonville
Thanks Autumn. I was posting and didnt see this.
No problem Stephen. When I read some of the concerns I just wanted to make sure everyone knows that they will still have an opportunity to address their concerns.
Autumn, at the beginning, middle, or end of the meeting?
Does anyone know which section of code exactly defines "formal track" ? Is it the highlighted section below ?
QuoteSec. 518.133. - Enforcement alternatives; civil penalties.
(b)
Violations of the provisions of this Chapter can be prosecuted through any administrative board with authority to impose administrative fines and civil penalties for violations of the provisions of this Chapter, including the specific authority to order the City to abate any violation of this Chapter if a violation has not been corrected within a specified reasonable time as determined by the Municipal Code Enforcement Board or Special Magistrate, or through any supplemental method established under the Ordinance Code, Florida Statutes or common law.
This provision was amended by 2007-0286E.
http://citycirc1.coj.net/coj/COJBillList.asp?Bill=2007-0286
Before it read like this:
QuoteSec. 518.133. Enforcement alternatives.
(b) Violations of the provisions of this Chapter can be prosecuted through any administrative board with authority to impose administrative fines and civil penalties, for violations of the provisions of this Chapter or through any supplemental method established under the Ordinance Code, Florida Statutes, or common law.
I am not sure where in the meeting it will be addressed it is up to the discretion of the Chairman.
Perhaps it is, Stephen, you should be on City Council :)
sie können nicht sehen den wald vor lauter bäumen...
Stephen is talking now fantastic!
30 mins on window replacement and ten minutes on demo
Does anyone know what the usual lag time is in the online posting of minutes after the meeting is concluded? I'm curious to read this one...
The need to get rid of that big green awning on the building to allow for signage over the windows.
OMG.... shall I pass out toothpicks to keep everyone's eyes open?
Stephen:
You are cracking me up.
stephen.....+1.5!
I just noticed on the agenda we are under 'old business'
Quote from: stephendare on July 28, 2010, 05:43:17 PM
Right now we are listening to extended drivel regarding the importance of dead plaster to the interior of a church building that is being converted into a home.
We have reached a debate of ecclesiastical proportions, as we are all trying to envision the possibility of whether or not there was interior 'stucco' in a church which no one has pictures or architectural renderings of.
The Certificate of Appropriateness hangs in the very balance.
Never mind that historical preservation is supposed to be limited to the exterior of the building----apparently Lisa Sheppard is explaining that there is a good reason for this because the application is pertinent to a tax refund for the project----
When you go for federal tax credits, which it sounds like this property owner is doing, then you have to do interior restoration per federal regulations.
The owner wants to expose all the bricks (which is her prerogative) but it is against the staff recommendation.
So here we all are, conjecturing whether or not there was ever stucco originally in the building.
good lord.
Why is there no approval necessary?
so seriously...this meeting is 4 hours long? Do they allow personal coolers and seat cushions to be brought in?
yet another reason why government in all forms is myopic and frozen in its inability to get anything done. it's like watching the time-loop episode of star trek n.g.
Dammit, I had no idea we were so close to the real meat of things when I left! I thought the Lee HS OOD would last another couple of hours.
At least I have a vague understanding of the process now; hopefully I'll be able to attend in the future.
Actually Finnegan I think I read somewhere that time allowed is 3:00- 11:00 pm...
stephen left out his own fabulous speech, he hit the homerun of the evening!
I would love to have been there for all of this, but having the pleasure of reading through Stephens comments and commentary is so worth it!! ;D
I hope that my letter was read into record, or at least it has been included into record.
Thanks to all who were there and endured such crap, to speak up for our neighborhood.
And so........What is the outcome.. Did they genuinely listen to your concerns and have any intention of helping you? or was this just a formality before they proceed....
I am just curious. IF it takes boarding up , cleaning up, WHATEVER to save these places, I ll gladly pitch in
OMG. I thought I was going to die. Food delivery and alcohol would have helped. Someone HAS to take on that responsibility next time.
First off, Lisa Sheppard spoke to the Commission before we all did, and quite frankly I just wanted to say "ditto." I just love her.
The Commission read and received all of our letters and emails. I'll bet one or more of them read the various internet blogs too. They were very aware we were coming, very aware we were there.
Everyone from Springfield that spoke addressed different points and I witnessed lots of nods in agreement and positive facial gestures in our favor from the commission towards the preservation of Historic Springfield homes. Lisa, Joel, Samantha, and Autumn (HPC Office,) breathed sighs of relief and seemed to whisper "thank you" to the Springfield folks who remained.
They (the Commission) "get" the policy change necessity and the struggle it will be, AND also re-formed/re-established a committee before we departed to take this on! Lisa Sheppard helped immensely to "set this up" (the revisit of the committee.) All the commission has ever known (most are new,) is what code enforcement presented and what the former SPAR director stated which by standard was in favor of demolition. The chairperson stated this to us as a group, sort of apologetically; we didn't know anything different. So by my summation, when Code and the representative for SPAR say demolition, how else do you respond? The Commission was very appreciative and thankful we, the community, were there. Our voice was heard!!!!!!!!! They want to work towards positive change and they want to include us.
I feel very good about was has occurred in this month in regards to preservation. We have come together as a group of concerned people for preservation and incited the right people, in the right position to be our voice.
It's not over yet. But what a great (positive) start to the process of preservation that should have NEVER disappeared.
Whoot! Whoot!
P.S. I did paraphrase two letters that AVS gave to me. You were heard.
Kudos to all of you.. I really wish it did not require individual areas of the city to form groups of Preservation but that as a collective we could speak as one for the whole city.
I am certainly not crying the blues or feeling sorry for myself ,but in PS#4s case , I fought in everyway I know how to ...I worked on it until I no longer regularly could.. Quitting is not in my vocabulary... It is a bright spot in my day that you people all went down there , and made yourselves heard.
Again i wish Historic Preservation could work as a collective and not require individual areas to form chapters... Brooklyn/LaVilla to my knowledge, have zero representation , So I fear the very very few remaining pieces , shall eventually also fall... I hope that I am wrong....
I agree with everything Ionia posted. A specail thanks to Lissa, Joel, and Samantha. If no one else made the point this evening, stephen did. He spoke specifically to the history Jacksonville has lost, not just in our neighborhood, but in many, many others. He brought the point home-which was fitting as he was the last speaker. We opened the doors, and Stephen took them through each room. I want to thanks Stephen, MetroJaX, and all the readers and posters here for helping us- we can go a long ways on our own I suppose, but with your support and forum we can save history!
So to each and everyone of you,the good people of Springfield, and MetroJax in particular------THANK YOU! You aremaking a difference in our environment, history, and lives.
Timkin, the one thing I took away from this meeting is it is not only us- your school, the Riverside FS, Ortega for godsakes.... they all need to be protected. We need to all band together and do the right thing and save our history. I am in it for the long haul!
Yes. Stephen brought up very eloquently the history of Jax and what we have lost and can not get back.
Policy change will help historic neighborhoods and sites.
I would make contact with HPC about the Annie School efforts. Photos, clean-ups, etc. They just need the knowledge. I think in the end the positive effort and policy change will help all history, not just Springfield be protected.
I remember that school when I first came here, before I knew about the story and your love and efforts to save her. I have a picture of me in front of it with my arms open to the sky. It can be done. It will be done.
Quote from: uptowngirl on July 28, 2010, 10:30:22 PM
Timkin, the one thing I took away from this meeting is it is not only us- your school, the Riverside FS, Ortega for godsakes.... they all need to be protected. We need to all band together and do the right thing and save our history. I am in it for the long haul!
I read you loud and clear... and I am not trying to sound sarcastic by asking this question... HOW do we make this happen?? How do we make this Council and this City management GET it through their skulls that WE DO NOT WANT ANOTHER PIECE OF OUR HISTORY DESTROYED??
I am ALL FOR banding together... Not much in to the nightclub scene or bowling alleys or football, but when it comes to helping my fellow man , or saving a building from a destiny it should not have, I am all over it.. Hopefully my trackrecord precedes me.
Stephen's speech made grown women cry. He talked about Harlem and the Harlem we lost. He talked about houses, famous and colorful ones that are forever gone. He pointed fingers and told the commission that they will be accountable to future generations. It was a thing of beauty.
Lisa Sheppard has been great in all of this. Very professional.
Uptown reminded the committee of the environmental issues present and asked the question: what will happen to all of the local children when they tear down lead paint, asbestos shingles and ash-infected soil?
And Strider gave us a brief history in Springfield's condemned property drama. He tied property values to demolition rates.
The new chair is delightfully candid. He asked us to appoint one speaker for our side. We declined, but promised to keep it brief (all but Stephen - and he didn't). He held the neighborhood accountable for the state we're in. As he said, SPAR has been supporting demolitions for years, what is the HPC to do?
And our fearless leader, Iloveionia, could hardly contain herself. Clapping, running to the podium, a sort of gansta cheerleader for preservation. Springfield couldn't have a better gas pedal to get things done.
There will be a subcommittee which will address alternatives to the Formal Track. This ought to happen quickly and will be open to the public. And we need to be there.
Timkin, this really isn't a Springfield issue. The affects all historic structures.
Quote from: sheclown on July 28, 2010, 10:43:08 PM
And we need to be there.
YES. EVERYONE FROM EVERYWHERE. NOT JUST SPRINGFIELD.
And I mean the all caps in a positive way.
The momentum can not die.
Agree completely... maybe it is that my previous post was misunderstood... Like we have RAP who really has no jurisdiction over PS#4 although Im sure most everyone associated with RAP , loves the building , and would support it staying...( Im not so sure about Corrigan) There is no Brooklyn Preservation Group... No LaVilla ( and its is really too late for that area..its mostly gone)
I guess what I am stating reflects directly from Sheclown's post "This affects all historic structures" I could not agree more.. My question is why are we not a collective, instead of RAP, and * gulp SPAR and Ortega Preservation? Does this make sense at all to anyone ?
tell me where and when... I will be there.
PS... For anyone who wants contact information on PS# 4's current owner I have all of that.. The former owner retains the surrounding property ( literally around the building and all of it on College).
As Stephen outlined (and as we saw with out own eyes tonight) the whole city is at risk. HPC was basically forced to approve a demo request in Ortega because it is a LOCAL historic district! The house was not only sound and not a damn thing wrong with it, but was cute, very cute to boot. Amazingly enough the "potential Owner (from Out of state by the way) has already spoken to a well known Springfiled culprit-SRG, Realtor mentioned Mac Bisset by NAME. So I guess we know the future for that poor property-GO BACK TO ATLANTA and take away their history! It is our bad luck a girl from JAX married into that family....
Well...it aint over , till its bulldozed.. Is there any chance this house could be moved? GIVEN to someone to move versus demoing it.. or is it's location a hinderance to moving it . ?
I think they just want to build a bigger "splashy house" on the river and SRG is only too happy to help. My last thought on the subject was "well at least they are not in Springfield anymore". Call me cruel, but because of the status of the neighborhood, I am not sure anyone can do anything. IF the couple buying waits long enough and we can change the code, and they are not grandfathered in maybe. But if not ONLY getting the word out that this developer only works on tearing historic structures down to build new infill-without the cost oulay of infrastructure may make a difference. SAD!
Any consulation the whole back of the room groaned when they heard SRG, to the point some on HPS felt a need to comment on the fact they knew nothing about this nor had anything to do with it, and others to calrify certain historic groups fought TO demolish houses- look at the minutes from this meeting.
Yes, but even this developer would surely want to save a few thousand on demolition costs by giving the house to someone who would pay to move it.. I dont know...maybe another of my pipe-dreams.. but seems there should be an alternative
Timkin, you are absolutely right:
Preservation SOS ought to be all of the urban core!
Quote from: sheclown on July 28, 2010, 11:11:05 PM
Timkin, you are absolutely right:
Preservation SOS ought to be all of the urban core!
Yep. I am already feeling the pressure- we need to help JAX save all it's history, all of it. As Stephen said tonight, how do you know who you are if you do not know where you came from.
In the meantime I will try to enjoy my national park around my house :-(
Agreed everyone.
Lisa Sheppard will continue to be our go-to person.
The HPC is re-organizing the Condemned Properties Sub-Committee and they want us there. They want our voice. Everyone.
It will be important to follow their lead, keep in regular communication, and attend the meetings they will have. They have kick-butt ideas already, and our added input will make for and effective plan towards complete preservation. I know this is going to happen. I feel it.
They did say the sub-committee would meet before the next HPC meeting. They need their time to get their bearings straight and I know the community at large will be included. What effects one, effects all. We are in this together.
Perhaps we need to form our own preservation system. I mean, my hat is off to RAP , but their Jurisdicition is limited... We should have a City-wide preservation....and recognize all forms of historic landmarks... The Style of mid-century is certainly not up my alley, but I recognize it as historic. At one time I was greatly in Favor of seeing the Haydon Burns Library go... I am not so sure I feel the same way about that now, having seen renderings of a proposed use for it.. I do not know if that will ever happen, but the point is , I saw it in a different light.
Annie Lytle is a completely different horse of a different color... THERE IS ABSOLUTELY no good reason this building should have been allowed to deteriorate to the point that it has... It may have needed repairs when it left the hands of DCSB, but the costs of those repairs would have been a fraction of what it will now cost... The mindset ( never to think outside this box) was residential. It did not happen 30 years ago, and as long as there is an interstate in front of it, it will never happen in the future..so then we must explore alternatives to this.
With regard to the many homes of Springfield that are suffering...my heart bleeds for them as much as Annie.. and the mindset of options MUST change for the sake of the neighborhoods.. Ryan and I ride through and marvel at the homes people have taken great pride in restoring and bringing back from far worse rack and ruin than School 4 .. It can be done!
Timkin.
Email Lisa Sheppard.
sheppard@coj.net
she will forward to the commission members taking on this subcommittee.
communication of ideas is key!!
Consider it done.
I just need to be pointed in a direction , and I can take the ball and run with it.. I will definitely email Lisa ...have no problem with that at all..
How does this fit in with City Council?
We will need to work with a council member to introduce amended legislation once we have a consensus.
Glorious Johnson would work well in that regard b/c she is at large and could represent all.
She would need to work with the Office of General Council once we have ideas -- and that person would be Jason Teal, the man with the most experience in Springfield and code enforcement. He would tell us what would work, legally and what wouldn't. Then he would draft it.
Then CM Johnson would introduce it to the council.
The HPC would lobby for passage which would go a long way. Preservation SOS would also meet with all council members to present this amendment and the necessity for it. We would put info out to the public through forums, facebook, etc.
Then, when it goes before full council, it would be clear and everyone would be on board and it would pass with flying colors.
Quote from: iloveionia on July 28, 2010, 11:27:05 PM
Timkin.
Email Lisa Sheppard.
sheppard@coj.net
she will forward to the commission members taking on this subcommittee.
communication of ideas is key!!
DONE! Got Auto-reply ...she is out of the office until Aug 3 ... contact Joel..
Quote from: sheclown on July 28, 2010, 11:38:51 PM
We will need to work with a council member to introduce amended legislation once we have a consensus.
Glorious Johnson would work well in that regard b/c she is at large and could represent all.
She would need to work with the Office of General Council once we have ideas -- and that person would be Jason Teal, the man with the most experience in Springfield and code enforcement. He would tell us what would work, legally and what wouldn't. Then he would draft it.
Then CM Johnson would introduce it to the council.
The HPC would lobby for passage which would go a long way. Preservation SOS would also meet with all council members to present this amendment and the necessity for it. We would put info out to the public through forums, facebook, etc.
Then, when it goes before full council, it would be clear and everyone would be on board and it would pass with flying colors.
My humble opinion is that you want the district councilmembers who represent the historic districts to be included. We'll need to be politically strategic about this and the more members who introduce it the better. Afterall, we'll want it to actually pass the Council. So who will most councilmembers be swayed by or not.
^ This is true. We need to meet with Dr. Gaffney, CM Corrigan, who else?
My advice is to put together a strategy. The first step is to work with the JHPC on the solution. We should see if they will include one or two reps from RAP and SPAR (Springfield) on their committee. RAP's and SPAR's executive committees are meeting in a couple of weeks to discuss common interests and concerns and set priorities. Even if they don't include us on their actual committee we can propose solutions and changes. Part of our planning will be to put together a political strategy. Property rights are always a concern of councilmembers.
Personally, I am thrilled that Springfield residents have come together to take this latest action with JHPC. I also know that SPAR has changed course on demolitions with Louise's departure.
Quote from: iloveioniaP.S. I did paraphrase two letters that AVS gave to me. You were heard
Thanks to AVS for reading my letter...that's greatly appreciated!!
Thank you to everyone who was able to stay ( I had to leave around 7pm to let my dogs out - holding it 2 hours longer than normal isnt good). Thank you iloveionia for reading the letters. I wanted to let them know the impact on real estate values, but it sounds like you guys all made great arguments!
I think I told sheclown and iloveionia last week that we would have more weight and resources to draw upon if we were able to work for the preservation of San Marco and Riverside/Avondale. Working with the groups that are there and helping them stand up for preservation will help strengthen us to the city.
Way to go everyone - and thank you so much to Joel and Lisa Sheppard - they have been tremendous help!
I agree too, SPAR does not represent the will of the neighborhood
SPAR has no place in anything moving forward.
Reading that utterly putrid letter they published should serve to remind anyone and everyone that nothing has changed.
Quote from: sheclownThis is true. We need to meet with Dr. Gaffney, CM Corrigan, who else?
I would include all current members, and then those who will be elected.
Sorry Stephen, I was not pulled from the Code Enforcement Board. I was there till the bitter end when all of the city CO boards were disbanded and replaced with a special master. I'm sure if you go back and do the research you will find that we were way more lenient than the special master is. The majority of the Urban Core CO board were Springfield residents at that time but thanks for trying to make it all about me as usual.
Yesterday was the first HPC meeting I have attended. I went to learn more about the process and it was educational. I also wanted to support the folks who went to promote a demolition moratorium. And I have to say that listening to their empassioned appeals made me so proud to be a part of this neighborhood.
Nicole, Amanda, Stephen, Gloria, Julie, Chris - you guys are amazing and an inspiration.
Quote from: Springfield Girl on July 29, 2010, 10:28:04 AM
Sorry Stephen, I was not pulled from the Code Enforcement Board. I was there till the bitter end when all of the city CO boards were disbanded and replaced with a special master. I'm sure if you go back and do the research you will find that we were way more lenient than the special master is. The majority of the Urban Core CO board were Springfield residents at that time but thanks for trying to make it all about me as usual.
Well if you weren't, someone was asleep at the "Conflict of Interest" switch.
Chris, please get more familiar with who you are talking about. And, Stephen, I'm kind of surprised at you saying some of those things as well.
Springfield Girl and her husband saved a Springfield home that had no roof for 15 years. They spent years at it, and it is an amazing home. S.G. loves Springfield and it's old homes. I don't know the stories behind each time S.G. voted for putting a house on the demo track, and if I did, I may or may not agree with some of them, but I know she embraces preservation.
We just may have to disagree with her on some of the homes. :-)
I am super excited about HPC's Plans, and the sub-committee being re-started. I beleive the whole group is on board to help save Jacksonvilles history (note I did not JUST say Historic Springfield!). I think the tough part of all of this is going to be the compromises everyone will have to make. While I agree with Iloveionia, knocking down a historic structure I don't even understand, I am realistic and know we will lose some. But what a start, I walked away from HPC feeling like great progress had been made, a new sorta faith in the process, and I hope the HPC Group felt the same.
"Asking SPAR to work with a true historic preservation organization like the RAP board would be like Mother Theresa asking Fred Phelp's church to help in her mission to care for AIDS patients.
I cannot imagine what RAP is thinking in cooperating with a group that is solely responsible for so many very bad precedents and historic demolitions."
If we have a common goal to prevent (stop) demolitions and to put in place measures and actions that will prevent deterioration of historic structures, why not work with them? RAP certainly won't compromise its principles for anyone. If we can help all historic districts and landmark properties, that is a great thing. If SPAR becomes what you expect/want it to be, isn't that a great thing too? Making changes to the demolition by neglect part of the historic ordinance has been on our radar for a while. To its credit, SPAR reached out to RAP. The fact that all you guys showed up at JHPC last night to take a stand helped move the JHPC off the dime. There is power in numbers and if we speak and act with one voice we can move mountains.
We are not naive. We had become alarmed at all of the demolitions in Springfield and the historic planning staff had been concerned for quite a while. Frankly, we did not trust SPAR. Carmen and I met with a couple of Springfield folks to try to understand what was going on. But it wasn't and isn't our place to stick our nose in your neighborhood, especially uninvited. And we've got plenty in our own neighborhood to keep us busy. But we are open to SPAR being different. Some of our board members have worked with Brenda in the past and speak highly of her. I know she attended the workshop/planning session held recently that addressed demolitions. So we'll see how this works.
Also, is SPAR a membership organization? If so, can't the membership demand changes?
Quote from: Kay on July 29, 2010, 02:27:08 PMAlso, is SPAR a membership organization? If so, can't the membership demand changes?
No.
Quote from: FinnegansWake on July 29, 2010, 02:29:03 PM
Quote from: Kay on July 29, 2010, 02:27:08 PMAlso, is SPAR a membership organization? If so, can't the membership demand changes?
No.
SPAR is a membership organization but the membership has virtually no ability to force change due to the organization's unusual bylaws, which are posted on SPAR's website.
In addition, only a very small percentage of Springfield's residents are members of SPAR. The dues are higher than those for SMPS and RAP so for some it is a matter of affordability. Many other residents have simply decided that they do not want to be associated with the organization.
An
Quote from: Miss Fixit on July 29, 2010, 02:44:16 PM
Quote from: FinnegansWake on July 29, 2010, 02:29:03 PM
Quote from: Kay on July 29, 2010, 02:27:08 PMAlso, is SPAR a membership organization? If so, can't the membership demand changes?
No.
SPAR is a membership organization but the membership has virtually no ability to force change due to the organizations unusual bylawsm which are posted on SPAR's website.
In addition, only a very small percentage of Springfield's residents are members of SPAR. The dues are higher than those for SMPS and RAP so for some it is a matter of affordability. Many other residents have simply decided that they do not want to be associated with the organization.
and in addition, event he board itself does not have the ability to make change, only the executive committee can do that and it is appointed-not elected. It really is a private org for all intents and purposes. Some members have been on the board for five years after being appointed, and never elected to their position.
All of which are the reasons why the entire board needs to step down and elections held, and include anyone that wishes to serve.
The next election is supposed to be in October. The membership is supposed to vote on a slate presented by the Governance Committee. The Governance Committee (which I think is pretty non-existant now) is supposed to be comprised of 5 members, and it is open to membership.
So if you want control over who's up to be voted on, then forcing the Board to allow another Governance Committee to operate, comprised of people from the membership, seems like a first step at trying to get the organization back on track.
I don't know about anyone else, but I will not join again until the entire board (and that means everyone) steps down and all board positions are open for election. As it's been said, and I'll repeat it again, if the current board members have been doing the right thing, then people will know that and elect them properly this time around.
While I knew I could not stay for the entire meeting, I had no idea it would run so-oooooo long. Did anyone else see the irony in our first speaker during the public session? This remote investor presented a pathetic case of I didn't know and ah shucks arguments to address his COA-Work in Violation even mumbling he wasn't opposed to tear down and stating he did not know the house was part of an historic district! In reality, there was no new work in progress, he was merely trying to sell the home and take the money and run. But, I couldn't help but wonder how the previous builder managed to perform remodeling violations and sell himself to this unsuspected (sap) fellow. There's a real catch 22 here for sure that needs to be revisited for future neighborhood sustainability. Am I missing something? Too harsh on this fellow?
We often ponder why HISTORIC DISTRICT DO NOT DISTURB WITHOUT PROPER CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS cannot be put on the property record cards since ASH SITE was so easily added.
Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2010, 12:40:52 PM
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on July 29, 2010, 12:30:50 PM
Chris, please get more familiar with who you are talking about. And, Stephen, I'm kind of surprised at you saying some of those things as well.
Springfield Girl and her husband saved a Springfield home that had no roof for 15 years. They spent years at it, and it is an amazing home. S.G. loves Springfield and it's old homes. I don't know the stories behind each time S.G. voted for putting a house on the demo track, and if I did, I may or may not agree with some of them, but I know she embraces preservation.
We just may have to disagree with her on some of the homes. :-)
Well I'm not trying to excoriate Springfield Girl, Debbie. Im hoping that Commissioner Lisa Simon of the Historic Preservation Commission, formerly a Board Member of the Code Enforcement Board can clear up why the pre special masters board found it necessary to develop an ordinance which allowed them to demolish a building without getting permission from the Historic Preservation Commission while she happened to sit on that board?
Never mind that she was working for a developer involved in the same neighborhood....although ironically the developer's name came up last night at the Preservation Commission -----in the process of a new demolition request from Ortega, (where the developer moved once he abandoned Springfield, incidentally), apparently he would be building a new residence for the new owners, after the demolition, I think...one whose business model required empty lots in order to build new reproduction style houses on, and who was in serious competition with other builders like Kevin Gay from Operation New Hope for any properties in the area.
It elicited the response from one of the other commissioners: "I just can't understand why people come to an area claiming to love it, and then want to demolish the buildings.'.
I have no doubt that Springfield Girl has been involved in the preservation of some structures in Springfield. As a private citizen. In fact I have seen her do it. But she has been cheek and jowl with these policies for at least three years. As a Commissioner, no one is more responsible for the policy, and considering her history on the Code Enforcement board from which it originated, no one should have a better explanation of it.
What I am asking for a clarification of is her role as a public commissioner, and some explanation of how the 'formal track' changes were initiated.
+1
Like I said before someone was clearly asleep at the "Conflict of Interest" switch...
Gee Chris................It would seem to me that "SRG" ,like the phoenix, is rising from the ashes from which it sprang! I hope they don't continue their evil ways but have a good idea, here they go again!
Quote from: CS Foltz on July 29, 2010, 08:08:21 PM
Gee Chris................It would seem to me that "SRG" ,like the phoenix, is rising from the ashes from which it sprang! I hope they don't continue their evil ways but have a good idea, here they go again!
You really can't blame Bissette for this. He's a businessman, who wears his goals on his sleeve, and it's really pretty hard to fault him for it. For better or worse, what you see is what you get with him. He doesn't bug me because he was never pretending to be one thing and then doing another.
Which brings me to my real issue. That is SPAR. They pretend to be one thing while doing another, and undermined and demolished 1/3rd of a National Historic District, all while collecting money claiming they were trying to preserve it. It's beyond shady, and nothing has changed. Same evil group doing the same evil things. Look at their recent letter if you need any proof of this. They need to go.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 29, 2010, 09:02:21 PM
Quote from: CS Foltz on July 29, 2010, 08:08:21 PM
Gee Chris................It would seem to me that "SRG" ,like the phoenix, is rising from the ashes from which it sprang! I hope they don't continue their evil ways but have a good idea, here they go again!
You really can't blame Bissette for this. He's a businessman, who wears his goals on his sleeve, and it's really pretty hard to fault him for it. For better or worse, what you see is what you get with him. He doesn't bug me because he was never pretending to be one thing and then doing another.
Which brings me to my real issue. That is SPAR. They pretend to be one thing while doing another, and undermined and demolished 1/3rd of a National Historic District, all while collecting money claiming they were trying to preserve it. It's beyond shady, and nothing has changed. Same evil group doing the same evil things. Look at their recent letter if you need any proof of this. They need to go.
Not even realizing all of these facts, but the issues over the man with the Thrift Store and the condescending attitude expressed to him, I was under the impression that this group is looking out only to certain folk's interests, and not the Springfield community as a whole.
Mention was made of a Sub-committee.. Who would make up this subcommittee?? any way I can help??? ( I do not know alot about this area, but would certainly try my best to help)
We've posted pictures of some houses in danger, houses that are sound just need some work, OK some need a lot of work. But here are some houses that did get work, so take a look and see what could be if we stopped demolishing our houses:
This house got a big makeover and it is gorgeous now:
(http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af274/shelbylynnsmith/6thand7th126.jpg)
Look at this First St. Beauty would you knock this down?:
(http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af274/shelbylynnsmith/6thand7th170.jpg)
How about this grand lady on 2nd , what if her owners had not come along:
(http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af274/shelbylynnsmith/6thand7th141.jpg)
Want an apartment instead:
(http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af274/shelbylynnsmith/6thand7th029.jpg)
Yes, these have been restored to their former glory, but so could the houses slated to be demolished. Just a picture of what we are REALLY losing.
Beautiful !!!!
A neighborhood group of preservation advocates is going to build a positive relationship with HPC and work towards policy change that prevents unnecessary demolitions. More information will follow in the coming 6 months.
We are focusing on Springfield, but clearly city policy change is for everyone/every neighborhood.
Feel free to contact me.
Nicole
Formal track is defined as following (as per Elaine Lancaster):
QuoteChapter 518.300 details unsafe structures (formal track); the 6 to 9 months you are referring to is an average time period for the procedural process and are not covered by Chapter 518.
Also take a look at 2006-1363E. It introduced a few nice changes, e.g. "the Chief may approve the temporary securing of the building or structure".
http://citycirc1.coj.net/coj/COJBillList.asp?Bill=2006-1363 (http://citycirc1.coj.net/coj/COJBillList.asp?Bill=2006-1363)
Good Work Alex!!
Alright Lisa you deleted your post so I'll spare you the response...shame...it was a good one...