Went to get my usual Sunday paper today in the neighborhood at the Five Points newstand on Park. The elderly guy working there said it was closing and may become a BBQ place. All the racks were gone, and just a handfull of the magazines were stashed in the old drink cooler. Not sure how that tiny place could crank out any BBQ--plus there isn't a kitchen that I know of there.
That sucks... How long has that news stand been there?
Five Points is dying
I noticed this weekend that two new places were in the process of opening- a hair place and something next door that will have gifts and such. It was starting to look really empty, so I was glad to see some new places coming in. Hopefully they will make it.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on July 26, 2010, 09:39:08 AM
That sucks... How long has that news stand been there?
Since Moby Dick was a minnow .. give or take a couple years. Too bad. :(
It was there in the early 1950's from personal memory. Publix, Wallgreen's etc. all have magazine racks and newspaper stands inside now so maybe it's not economical anymore.
Passing of another icon.
5 Points is in fact dying.
But not because people don't go there, if you get into the details it's because there have been a string of unbelievable gaffes by property owners and business owners. Fuel and Ragland's closed because of management issues, and because they for whatever reason had agreed to pay more rent than the space was worth at the last renewal and couldn't make the numbers work.
Then there was the Sushi-turned-Thai-turned-Chinese-turned-back-into-Sushi restaurant that alienated all their customers by changing formats faster than most people change underwear. Which is a shame because the food was good, but every other time I went they had a new menu and anything I liked off the old menu was gone.
Then that upscale place opened up in the middle of the block across from the theatre, charging $30 for entrees despite having a Chef with no formal training and bad service to top it off. Unsurprisingly, it closed within a month. Then the Subway moved off Lomax to that new building by Publix because their landlord was demanding an insane rent increase and their lease was up for renewal. The guy there says their new location gets 10X more traffic and the rent is actually cheaper.
Then that Latitudes Cafe with its $9 wraps that were missing most of the ingredients they were supposed to come with on the menu and stale Sams Club brand potato chips closed down. Again, not exactly a mystery what went wrong there. They did have good coffee though, but that wasn't enough to make a go of it since they're within 1 block of Coffee & Spice and 2 blocks of Starbucks.
I'm not sure if 5 Points is having bad luck lately or what, but there just hasn't been anything there lately that's worth going to. It's like the 20 people who know the least about restaurants all got together and decided to open up a bunch of places in 5 Points all at once. And the landlords were under the misguided impression after the renovation of the 5 Points Theatre building that they were sitting on the next Avondale, and began demanding commensurate rents. Kind of the perfect cluster !@#$
5 points is pretty much in need of total renovation. (not the Theatre) I would attribute part of this to economics. A couple of the businesses have been hanging tough.. and I am sorry to see the area die..I like 5 points but it is hardly an Avondale or Riverside strip ,in terms of condition.
There's a lot of exciting things happening in 5 Points.
Underbelly opened a few months ago, as did Lomax Lounge.
The new salon (Hawthorn) is open for business.
A new women's accessories store is about to next door.
The old Hypnotique seems to have been rented - brown is paper is up and someone is working inside.
The BBQ concept sounds kind of cool - we hear it will be cooked on a mobile smoker or grill and sold from the old newsstand. It is connected with Derby House, so customers will be able to sit on the deck next door.
There are a couple of places that are rumored to be looking to expand into 5 Points that would be very exciting if they work out.
5 Points isn't dying. Take it easy people. Poorly executed business plans don't survive anywhere.
Deco Bistro was doomed from the start. Like ChrisUF said, chef with no formal training and the owner had never even been in the business either. (The one and only time we ate there, he stopped and chatted us up. Told us how he cashed in his retirement portfolio to do this. I couldn't help thinking what an epic mistake that was). The owner of the building shouldn't have leased to them in the first place, in my opinion. Personally, I don't think it would have survived had the food been good and the service excellent. 5 Points isn't the place for high end eateries. Fun, hipster eateries work better there (OBrothers, Mossfire). Deco Bistro, properly executed, might've worked in Avondale.
The Fu Hao corner should be a money maker. Someone with some vision could make that spot hot. Fu Hao couldn't seem to pick an identity.
While it's a shame that these businesses didn't last, at least through creative destruction something new and exciting will evolve. And when someone does hit the right note, everyone will be saying, wow 5 Points is booming.
Unfortunately, exorbitant rents won't make that happen any sooner, and hopefully the building owners will eventually realize that having a viable tenant at a reasonable rate is better than no tenant at all.
~j.
The last few times I have been to Five Points Theater, it's a little depressing when you're leaving. I fully expect to see tumbleweeds next time.
On a side note, will the theater be playing The Kids Are All Right anytime soon?
Seems like reasonable rent is a major sticking point. Anyone know what the market rate is in Five Points and how that compares to other retail strips in Avondale or San Marco? Any opinions on what is reasonable?
Printed reading material is so 20th century. It was only a matter of time before that newsstand died.
The internet killed their real profit center.
Kids Are All Right will be opening on 3 screens this coming weekend (but not ours). We've got The Girl Who Played With Fire instead. And Winter's Bone opening on August 6th. I'm really excited about that one.
I think rents are reasonable in 5 Points. From a landlord's perspective, you really don't want someone who doesn't have a good chance of success renting your space and then going under after a short time. Commercial tenants usually do a lot of buildout, and they can really mess up your space if they don't know what they're doing.
For example, I wouldn't have let Whalebone (the Deco Bistro space) expand into the space next door. Once they're linked, it's very hard to split them back up, and now the space is potentially too large for the next tenant.
Winter's Bone is supposed to be amazing.
Quote from: 5 Points Theatre on July 26, 2010, 12:34:06 PM
The internet killed their real profit center.
True. When I was in high school, I liked reading out-of-town newspapers. It was great to read of perspectives from other cities and writers. I especially liked reading The New York Times, The Miami Herald (Carl Hiaasen is great!), the Atlanta Constitution and the Tampa Tribune. I remember that the news stand also sold Sunday editions of a variety of papers from San Francisco to Boston. Over the years, I saw the number of newspapers dwindle. I noticed that the number of magazines also dropped off. Before long, it seemed that only the adult material was still getting a lot of shelf space.
For a time, they opened up other locations at the Beach and near Mandarin. And, now, they will be no more. All in all, I am going to miss the Five Points News Stand.
5 Points newsstand is likely the last true newsstand left in Jax. I wished the T-U or MJ would do a retrospective on it. It's one of the older businesses in Jax and definitely a piece of a bygone era.
I remember Jake's newsstand downtown, too. Both were a little bit of NYC in Jax. We also used to have Whites/Duval News.QuoteThe internet killed their real profit center.
You must mean the XXX materials! :D Not to mention newspapers and mags online from everywhere and kids not reading comic books anymore because they play video games.
NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
This was a childhood icon, I never even went into the back room!
I used to buy Melody Maker there during the 1970's.
Chicken little, sky is falling. Give me a break!
The main problem is the property owners and some bad decisions by some business owners. It's sad that the news stand is closing. But honestly, how many of you ever bought a darn thing from there? Honestly?
I'm seeing a bit of a push by some parties to trash 5-points and make the "king street district" look like the new "hot spot". Which is laughable. Emily's doing great with Underbelly, and Lomax is bringing in some good stuff. But the property owners of the empty properties that want to charge exorbitant rents need to get a clue or watch their properties sit empty like downtown. It's also sad that Fu Hao closed, but one neighborhood doesn't need 4 sushi places.
I suppose the "Bro-dude" "Salt-life mouth-breather" crowd does pay the bills. It kept Bourbon Street Station open for quite a while. (which may still be open, but still full of Salt-life mouth-breathers.) But everything around the place crumbled.
But back on topic. It's really just sad to see another 5-points institution go down. I ask again though, how many of us actually bought stuff from him? You can't be sad for a place you never supported.
[EDIT] Because I got venue names mixed up. And I've had 4 beers and I'm punchy. And I love my 'hood. So I apologize if I come off as a d-hole.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on July 26, 2010, 09:30:46 PM
Chicken little, sky is falling. Give me a break!
The main problem is the property owners and some bad decisions by some business owners. It's sad that the news stand is closing. But honestly, how many of you ever bought a darn thing from there? Honestly?
I'm seeing a bit of a push by some parties to trash 5-points and make the "king street district" look like the new "hot spot". Which is laughable. Emily's doing great with Underbelly, and Lomax is bringing in some good stuff. But the property owners of the empty properties that want to charge exorbitant rents need to get a clue or watch their properties sit empty like downtown. It's also sad that Fu Hao closed, but one neighborhood doesn't need 4 sushi places.
Thank you. I don't even think that downtown Tokyo has such a high density of sushi places. Before people whip out the Tokyo yellow pages, please be assured that I am only kidding...
I always bought my Florida Times Union there every day, instead of the paper box just because I liked to see them there, the little icon that it was. And my dog liked to visit the old guy who gave her water with ice cubes in hot weather and a piece of beef jerky. But I know you can't pay rent on papers alone. Maybe it could be "Five Points Paper and BBQ"... :-\
In NYC the newsstand always has something for sale in addition to the periodicals. Perhaps he should have sold other items to make up for the lacking newspaper sales? I wish there was a good bookstore/magazine shop over there with a coffee shop inside.
Growing up in the 50's and 60's, as a rabid reader I learned that nearly every city had it's news stand. God knows I've done my part to keep the 5-Points stand open back when they still sold transportation and mechanical interest magazines. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I still get perhaps 15 magazines per month at my door. I can glance at the cover and know which issue has the articles I'm looking for without waiting for a download. Moreover the internet for all of it's wonders hasn't been able to replace a good print editor in setting up related stories and companion articles all in one place without a google search. One more thing? If I want some really first class photos of my trains, boats, planes etc. all I have to do is open the pages of my favorite magazines, without wading through 200 photos of some idiot riding a bike off a cliff. You get what you pay for, and if you have a favorite magazine, it's probably because you have a cosmic connection with the editor.
Damn! Just Damn! God I hate to see that little piece of Americana fade away.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: 5 Points Theatre on July 26, 2010, 12:34:06 PM
I think rents are reasonable in 5 Points.
I love your business, and not trying to stir anything up. However, if rents in 5 Points were reasonable there wouldn't be such a high number of vacant properties. The market determines what's reasonable, not you or I. That's just how it goes.
Quote
I'm seeing a bit of a push by some parties to trash 5-points and make the "king street district" look like the new "hot spot". Which is laughable. Emily's doing great with Underbelly, and Lomax is bringing in some good stuff. But the property owners of the empty properties that want to charge exorbitant rents need to get a clue or watch their properties sit empty like downtown. It's also sad that Fu Hao closed, but one neighborhood doesn't need 4 sushi places.
I don't think anyone is trying to trash five points. Anyone that thinks one area needs to decline for another area to succeed is delusional. It would be better for both areas if they were both successful. Their battle is not with eachother, but with the southside and the beach. The areas cater to different crowds and provide a different type of experience. It sounds like if you and both of your friends prefer 5 points, I'd like King Street better.
QuoteI suppose the "Bro-dude" "Salt-life mouth-breather" crowd does pay the bills. It kept Bourbon Street Station open for quite a while. (which may still be open, but still full of Salt-life mouth-breathers.) But everything around the place crumbled.
Sorry you don't think having people in a bar is a good thing, but I don't care who patronizes my business as long as they play nice with others. A discriminatory attitude like that is a quick way to sink a bar. There's not enough demand in riverside to treat patrons with disdain, no matter how un-hip they might be. Looks like you need to get off your high horse/fixie and grow up. Maybe someone's skinny jeans are on too tight.
The fact that 5 Points has a supermarket, my favorite local pizza joint, my landlord's offices, and the Cummer and RAM nearby keeps me coming to 5 Points. As long they maintain a mix of uses like that I think you have to argue that it's still a vibrant area. With the economy as it is, only the best business models can make it period. I'm pretty sure the vacancy rate in 5 Points fares very well in comparison to Jax overall.
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on July 29, 2010, 09:51:37 AM
The fact that 5 Points has a supermarket, my favorite local pizza joint, my landlord's offices, and the Cummer and RAM nearby keeps me coming to 5 Points. As long they maintain a mix of uses like that I think you have to argue that it's still a vibrant area. With the economy as it is, only the best business models can make it period. I'm pretty sure the vacancy rate in 5 Points fares very well in comparison to Jax overall.
The publix shopping center isn't what we're referring to when we say "5 Points". I think most people are referring to the original core of 5 Points, e.g. the original commercial district around Park & Lomax. Much/most of it is vacant. Of course the Publix is doing well, it's Publix. That has little to do with the rest of 5 Points.
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on July 29, 2010, 09:51:37 AM
The fact that 5 Points has a supermarket, my favorite local pizza joint, my landlord's offices, and the Cummer and RAM nearby keeps me coming to 5 Points. As long they maintain a mix of uses like that I think you have to argue that it's still a vibrant area. With the economy as it is, only the best business models can make it period. I'm pretty sure the vacancy rate in 5 Points fares very well in comparison to Jax overall.
The Publix is not in Five Points
I don't think it's right to say that much or most of 5 Points is vacant. Currently there are four vacancies on Park Street - the old Latitudes space, the old Peterson Events space, Fuel, and maybe Fu Hao (but I hear that may re-open). I that's comparable to Avondale or San Marco (or anywhere on the Southside for that matter).
For 5 Points to be successful, I think people need to think of it as including everything from the Publix to RAM, including Lomax and the other end of Margaret Street. If you take that definition, there's as many stores as a mall, and people from across town begin to think of the area in a new way. This is where smart urban planning and urban design can play a huge role - in tying the area together with signage, streetscaping, etc.
I wish a good coffee/book shop would open up where fuel was.
Seriously? That's a couple blocks difference. Basically, your definition of the 5 Points district seems to be based only on what would support your stance. I'm basing my definition on the whole commercial area surrounding that intersection because the average person would include that area as a part of the district. In fact, the distances involved here are probably less than walking your average shopping mall end to end. And you wouldn't call a whole shopping mall on the verge of dying because there a few odd vacant storefronts. Point being, the district as a whole is very relevant and healthy considering the overall business climate.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 29, 2010, 09:57:09 AM
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on July 29, 2010, 09:51:37 AM
The fact that 5 Points has a supermarket, my favorite local pizza joint, my landlord's offices, and the Cummer and RAM nearby keeps me coming to 5 Points. As long they maintain a mix of uses like that I think you have to argue that it's still a vibrant area. With the economy as it is, only the best business models can make it period. I'm pretty sure the vacancy rate in 5 Points fares very well in comparison to Jax overall.
The publix shopping center isn't what we're referring to when we say "5 Points". I think most people are referring to the original core of 5 Points, e.g. the original commercial district around Park & Lomax. Much/most of it is vacant. Of course the Publix is doing well, it's Publix. That has little to do with the rest of 5 Points.
Quote from: 5 Points Theatre on July 29, 2010, 10:36:44 AM
I don't think it's right to say that much or most of 5 Points is vacant. Currently there are four vacancies on Park Street - the old Latitudes space, the old Peterson Events space, Fuel, and maybe Fu Hao (but I hear that may re-open). I that's comparable to Avondale or San Marco (or anywhere on the Southside for that matter).
For 5 Points to be successful, I think people need to think of it as including everything from the Publix to RAM, including Lomax and the other end of Margaret Street. If you take that definition, there's as many stores as a mall, and people from across town begin to think of the area in a new way. This is where smart urban planning and urban design can play a huge role - in tying the area together with signage, streetscaping, etc.
Fu Hao is closed, there are signs in the windows selling the furniture and restaurant equipment. So Fu Hao, Fuel, Deco Bistro, Latitudes, Subway, the News Stand, and probably some stuff I can't think of at the moment, have shut down and all those spaces remain vacant. If the rents were reasonable, they wouldn't be having so many unfilled vacancies.
There are really two 5 Points, one is comprised of the chains that are impervious to the local market, like Starbucks, Publix, SunTrust Bank, Al's, etc. I don't think lumping that in with the small businesses that are all struggling and closing in the area is doing something of a disservice when discussing the area as a whole.
The large chains are doing fine, nobody is worried about that. It's the local businesses in 5 Points that haven't been making it. This is kind of a canary in the coal mine, if you will.
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on July 29, 2010, 10:44:12 AM
Seriously? That's a couple blocks difference. Basically, your definition of the 5 Points district seems to be based only on what would support your stance. I'm basing my definition on the whole commercial area surrounding that intersection because the average person would include that area as a part of the district. In fact, the distances involved here are probably less than walking your average shopping mall end to end. And you wouldn't call a whole shopping mall on the verge of dying because there a few odd vacant storefronts. Point being, the district as a whole is very relevant and healthy considering the overall business climate.Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 29, 2010, 09:57:09 AM
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on July 29, 2010, 09:51:37 AM
The fact that 5 Points has a supermarket, my favorite local pizza joint, my landlord's offices, and the Cummer and RAM nearby keeps me coming to 5 Points. As long they maintain a mix of uses like that I think you have to argue that it's still a vibrant area. With the economy as it is, only the best business models can make it period. I'm pretty sure the vacancy rate in 5 Points fares very well in comparison to Jax overall.
The publix shopping center isn't what we're referring to when we say "5 Points". I think most people are referring to the original core of 5 Points, e.g. the original commercial district around Park & Lomax. Much/most of it is vacant. Of course the Publix is doing well, it's Publix. That has little to do with the rest of 5 Points.
You're not understanding the mechanics of small vs. large and chain vs. independent businesses.
People will drive 10 miles to go to Publix, Starbucks, SunTrust, etc., so none of that has any bearing at all on the health of the shopping district, especially when small businesses aren't making it there. Most of the people who go to Publix or SunTrust go do their business and get back in the car and go home, these aren't contributors to a cohesive shopping district.
Using your own examples, why do think you don't see supermarkets inside malls?
I have in fact seen a grocery store inside an enclosed mall before, and there are several shopping centers with grocery stores as anchors although you are right many of these tend to be auto-oriented. But that's beside the point. There is often a mix of large chains, mom and pop stores, and anchor stores in many shopping areas. Historically, when mom and pop business was apparently booming downtown there were large corporate anchors like Sears and so on there, too. The anchors draw the most people in and surrounding small businesses prosper as a result of the increased traffic. It was not just a vaccuum where only small business exists.
My point is that you have to consider the district as a whole and if you do you'll see a diversity of uses that includes both large and small businesses which gives the district stability. That way when one strip (such as on Park St. across from the theater) is being mismanaged the entire district does not necessarily decline.
It's not the same Five Points I grew up with, but I wouldn't say it's flatlining. I always forget to look, but does anyone know what's going in where the old deli was? It's the first store by the parking lot across the street from the church.
I've lived here 4 years & personally never saw the allure of 5 Points (the ACTUALLY 5 Points, not the entire area). There's hardly anything of substance that comes in there. I mean really, how many times are you gonna frequent the antique store & the place to buy cigars?? Its trying to be way too niche & hip for its own good. You can be those things, but you also gotta have a sustainable product & environment that people will want to frequent.
And it just seems like a lot of the food businesses that come in do a really half-assed job. Weird inconsistent hours, wet behind the ear owners, etc. Most of those places that have come & gone, food, coffee shops, etc have just reeked of mediocrity & poor business planning.
I think there is plenty of "sustainable product" in 5 points. Anomaly/Underbelly, Lomax Lodge, Midnight Sun, The Coffee Shop, Bead Here and now, Edge City, 5 Points Theater...the list goes on, if you are looking for upscale dinning sorry that has never been the attraction and i hope it will never be, go to Avondale, if thats your thing, there's plenty of it. I do wish there where was a funky organic hole in the wall restaurant, but the future of 5 points is still holding on and I will it always be one of my favorite place in jax!
The fine dining will be coming soon with the Black Sheep group venture next to mossfire. in response to the idea that there is not a "sustainable product", tell me anywhere that there hasn't been some commercial turnover. Yes, even the generic 'st johns town center' has had some failures and most consumers in the US love that kind of cookie cutter chain crap.
5 Points has just about anything you could need or want within a 1/2 mile radius (minus your big box store garbage, thank goodness). Name anywhere else in the city that can claim that.
Used to always go and get my music magazines from this newsstand (billboard, etc.) back in the 70's and 80's. Will miss this 5 Point icon.
"HU"
Me too.
New Musical Express, Cream, Melody Maker.
Hopefuly the BBQ is good..
Quote from: heights unknown on August 20, 2010, 02:38:14 PM
Used to always go and get my music magazines from this newsstand (billboard, etc.) back in the 70's and 80's. Will miss this 5 Point icon.
"HU"
Yeah, First Milligan's Restaurant then Peterson's 5 and 10 and now this? Oh the humanity!
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on July 26, 2010, 12:23:24 PM
Printed reading material is so 20th century. It was only a matter of time before that newsstand died.
I take it your an IPad owner?
No, but I'm shopping for a Linux tablet or netbook. Who can afford Apple products?
This is open now.... its just an extension of Derby House that serves BBQ. Sandwich platters are like $8. I went to check it out today, but I got so excited that they had a special with catfish and grits that I didn't try the bbq, lol
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1187/derbq.jpg)
Jacksonville institution closes doorsFive Points News Center will be replaced by a barbecue restaurant soonQuoteBy Kevin Turner
At the end of July, a 64-year Jacksonville institution came to a quiet end when the Five Points News Center closed.
The cinderblock building, in the heart of Five Points at 1060 Park St., will reopen as a barbecue restaurant called Der-B-Q, owner Roy Reeves said.
Reeves said he closed the news stand because it wasn’t making enough money to justify keeping it open.
“The Internet killed it, plus the recession,†he said.
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-09-07/story/jacksonville-institution-closes-doors
Just thought I would add that this Saturday is the last day Caribbean Connection is going to be open. They will still have their beach location, but I just think it really sucks that yet another 5 Points business is closing up. Especially after how long they have been in business there. :(
5 Points really seems to have lost a lot of what made it what it was when Fuel finally shut down. I really wish there was a live music venue down in 5 points... I know that drew huge amounts of people to the area. And yes, I am aware that there is some live music down at Lomax, but I have never really seen anything but local bands and whatnot. Not that I have anything against that either, but it is not going to pull crowds like the acts that played in Fuel.... (and previously at club 5) Sigh.
Quote from: Atari007 on September 22, 2010, 12:27:48 PM
Just thought I would add that this Saturday is the last day Caribbean Connection is going to be open. They will still have their beach location, but I just think it really sucks that yet another 5 Points business is closing up. Especially after how long they have been in business there. :(
5 Points really seems to have lost a lot of what made it what it was when Fuel finally shut down. I really wish there was a live music venue down in 5 points... I know that drew huge amounts of people to the area. And yes, I am aware that there is some live music down at Lomax, but I have never really seen anything but local bands and whatnot. Not that I have anything against that either, but it is not going to pull crowds like the acts that played in Fuel.... (and previously at club 5) Sigh.
5 Points does seem to have lost it's "soul".... :(
I did not know Caribbean Connection was closing their Five Points location.
Sorry to see another great business leave the neighborhood.