Suburban Jacksonville: Confederate Point
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/898312986_W2cey-M.jpg)
Built in the 1960s on reclaimed lowlands, Confederate Point is technically a small island surrounded by a moat, with one small bridge as access.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jul-suburban-jacksonville-confederate-point
When my family first moved to Jacksonville in '89 when lived in the Confederate Point Apartments for about a year. Entirely different neighborhood 20 years later. The inland homes are still very nice but the apartment complexes are a totally different story.
to me, there is a large difference between the "suburban" neighborhoods built from the 1940s through the 1970s versus the subdivisions built from 1980 on....most of the newer ones are not integratedwith their surroundings, are often gated, and would be very hard to redevelop/reinvent over time....the postwar suburbs (including areas like Arlington) can and may revitalize over time.
Good observation. The earlier suburban neighborhoods also tend to have roadway networks that don't force all vehicular traffic to arterials, which alleviates congestion. Like the older urban neighborhoods, they tend to have "bones" to work with in the effort to improve sustainability and walkability. A great example of this is Orlando's College Park. There a "complete streets" type project has helped to transform that neighborhood's main commercial corridor into a walkable district. I'll try to stop and get some pics on my way back up to Jax tonight.
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 22, 2010, 10:33:26 AM
to me, there is a large difference between the "suburban" neighborhoods built from the 1940s through the 1970s versus the subdivisions built from 1980 on....most of the newer ones are not integratedwith their surroundings, are often gated, and would be very hard to redevelop/reinvent over time....the postwar suburbs (including areas like Arlington) can and may revitalize over time.
How were these post-war suburbs typically developed? Was it as it is today where a developer buys up a large plot of land for a subdivision? Also, I noticed that the areas that are being more often today are places with lots of natural barriers to development such as swampy areas that must be drained off to develop. Surely, that has to affect the development patterns. I have friends who have told me about whole bulldozers being swallowed up in places around the present day Collins Rd.
wow, never knew this neighborhood existed, very very nice. Certainly not a suburb you see nowadays
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on July 22, 2010, 12:06:50 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 22, 2010, 10:33:26 AM
to me, there is a large difference between the "suburban" neighborhoods built from the 1940s through the 1970s versus the subdivisions built from 1980 on....most of the newer ones are not integratedwith their surroundings, are often gated, and would be very hard to redevelop/reinvent over time....the postwar suburbs (including areas like Arlington) can and may revitalize over time.
How were these post-war suburbs typically developed? Was it as it is today where a developer buys up a large plot of land for a subdivision?
Yes. However, the roadway network for these developments have changed. Now most new developments limit their access points with a network of cul-da-sacs and gates to isolated themselves from their surroundings. Typical post war subdivisions still laid out their streets in a grid like set up offering multiple routes for community access.
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/rfisher/RF00252.jpg)
Arlington in 1957(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/rfisher/RF00333.jpg)
Cedar Hills in the 1960s(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/rfisher/RF00174a.jpg)
Lakeshore in 1955Jacksonville suburban development today(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5300/jacksonville4wc7.jpg)
(http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/5619/jacksonville13vr9.jpg)
(http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/3813/jacksonville19qt5.jpg)
More images at USA Sprawl Festival-Jacksonville:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=9739063&postcount=111QuoteAlso, I noticed that the areas that are being more often today are places with lots of natural barriers to development such as swampy areas that must be drained off to develop. Surely, that has to affect the development patterns. I have friends who have told me about whole bulldozers being swallowed up in places around the present day Collins Rd.
It's always been like this in Jacksonville. Many parts of downtown were originally marsh. Even Confederate Point was/is surrounded on three sides by water.
Thanks. I'm getting a regular education in urban planning from following this website. Roadways are laid out a little differently where I'm from because there's a lot of hills. So a lot of road building is just about finding the best way around the next hill. There are these same types of street patterns, but it's limited by the topography to ridgetops and valleys. Needless to say my hometown has a terribly confusing street set-up and is an awful place to learn about development patterns. I was just trying to figure out why there was a paradigm shift towards cul-de-sac neighborhoods when grid streets were such a proven standard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fused_Grid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fused_Grid)
This is an interesting concept that combines the good points of cul-de-sac and grid. I wonder if their are any examples of a fused grid near by. It reminds me of Savannah's public squares in a way.
Are there any examples of a new community/subdivision that have been centered with a commercial district? I think of the Argyle model - there is a distinct commercial district with shopping, restaurants, etc... but as stated above, you can't reasonably walk there from your home - you typically pass it twice - once on your way to work and again on your way back. Wouldn't it make more sense to have that disctrict be the nucleus of your neighborhood instead of on the outskirts?
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 27, 2010, 09:20:50 AM
Are there any examples of a new community/subdivision that have been centered with a commercial district? I think of the Argyle model - there is a distinct commercial district with shopping, restaurants, etc... but as stated above, you can't reasonably walk there from your home - you typically pass it twice - once on your way to work and again on your way back. Wouldn't it make more sense to have that disctrict be the nucleus of your neighborhood instead of on the outskirts?
Technically, Nocatee will have what it consideres a commercial center. However, there is presently only a couple of stores (Publix, sushi place and a hair place, I think).
I haven't been to Nocatee since the very early development. I know that was the plan, but plans tend to change when the market that you're supplying suddenly dries up. I had honestly forgotton about it. I guess it's time for me to head south for an afternoon and see how things have turned out.
Quote from: stephenc on July 22, 2010, 10:02:36 AM
When my family first moved to Jacksonville in '89 when lived in the Confederate Point Apartments for about a year. Entirely different neighborhood 20 years later. The inland homes are still very nice but the apartment complexes are a totally different story.
"Entirely different 20 years later"......how so?
Quote from: north miami on July 27, 2010, 10:02:39 AM
Quote from: stephenc on July 22, 2010, 10:02:36 AM
When my family first moved to Jacksonville in '89 when lived in the Confederate Point Apartments for about a year. Entirely different neighborhood 20 years later. The inland homes are still very nice but the apartment complexes are a totally different story.
"Entirely different 20 years later"......how so?
He's 20 yrs older and doesn't care for the 'young punks' with their 'rock & roll' and 'sporty cars' :P
two thoughts on cul de sacs:
1. Cul de sacs don't eliminate the traffic and the danger it creates- instead, they just displace the traffic into one or two main arterials, making those arterials much more congested and ultimately more dangerous as the arterial is widened to ease high-speed traffic.
2. Emergency responders aren't so wild about cul de sacs because they make it harder for fire trucks and ambulances to reach a residence.
It isn't Confederate Point PLANTATION. Exclusive?
great photos!
Where is a shot of Linda's booby bar!?
I know why it is TOTALLY different 20 years later- has nothing to do with young punks and sporty cars- it has everything to do with WHO is living in those HUD /welfare apartments. It is encroaching on a once-beautiful and peaceful neighborhood.
I think that it's just a matter of perception. When I was 19-20 in my first apt, I was raising hell and partying. I would wind out the engine in my little camry just to get 200' from my parking spot to the gate. Bass pouring out of the car, not giving an F. Today - I am that old guy on the porch yelling at the 'youngsters' to slow their ass down when driving through the neighborhood. About 20 years perspective.
sorry to bump this thread.... but, after exploring Confederate Point on my bike after reading all of this, I reached the boat launch <which I had not done in over 15 years> I was reminded of how I have long wondered about the last 50-70 years and how the westside wraparound urban neighborhoods could have been different if Confederate Point Blvd boat launch ramp was below a bridge span connecting over to Ortega Farms.
Normandy & Lenox,
Hilcrest,
Seminole Gardens,
Roosevelt Gardens,
Lakeshore Terrace,
Herlong,
Hyde Grove,
Hyde Park,
Cedar Hills,
Lake Shore / Lakeside Park,
Ortega Farms
I wonder if better connectivity would have long ago created RAP's desired better buffers to our prized historic districts?
Perhaps we would not *still* be in a waiting game.
Ortega Farms Bv and Confederate Point line up.
As a child, I would ask my dad, ".. when will they build that bridge?"
he would say, "probably never" followed by "stay in school and keep bringing home good grades"
not trying to recreate the city but on old plat drawings, Ortega Farms is drawn (but not named) and the route drawn runs parallel to US17 and the rail, fully out to Blanding (also unnamed on the old rudimentary document)
Seeing those old relics has stuck with me obviously.
A bigger bridge from Timuquana over the SaintJohns to University could have also worked wonders for the westside by linking to the Beaches and Old Arlington more effectively with South Jacksonville.
Alas, now we have 295, the Buckman, JTButler
I think Jax was once called the brick city because of the thick headedness of some.
others see "problems" and supply dumptruck logic that doesn't destroy our natural habitat.
How long has Confederate Point enjoyed the use of their bike lanes!?
Excellent.