Changes coming to Riverside Trolley Bus
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1252-parkstreetstation-1.jpg)
Plans are underway to enhance the Riverside Trolley route between Downtown and the Riverside/Avondale Historic District.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jul-changes-coming-to-riverside-trolley-bus
Badass! This is awesome news! I have set up an event on Facebook to show the numbers of people planning to go. If you're on Facebook and are planning to attend, add yourself to the list or leave a public comment. There is a video and other resources on the FB event too.
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=137423262954585
We are trying to get a critical mass of people to use their lunch break on Friday to show support for transit options besides that are not busses. If you want more transit options in Jacksonville, this is your chance. So pack and lunch or eat at your desk and come represent at JTA on Friday!
If you can't make it on Friday leave a comment online or send an email to JTA
http://www.jtafla.com/RidingJTA/showPage.aspx?Sel=19&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
QuoteEmail your comments to Kent Stover at kstover@jtafla.com, fax them to Kent Stover at 904.630.3168 or enter them here online using the customer comment form found under Customer Support. All comments must be received no later than 6 p.m. Friday, July 23 to be considered in the final decision.
http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=13452096&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=1&color=dade00&fullscreen=1
While good, I think there are some critical problems with the service:
The Route - Riverside Avenue is not a good choice because it only serves the commercial area. If you're running it 5 to 7:30, then you are looking to serve residents. Move it up one block to Oak. It's the historic streetcar road, and you better serve the northern residents
The Headways - 30 minute is WAY too long (15 is pushing it). Remember, with a trolley, the idea is that it is frequent service. Plus, I don't necessarily know what time a trolley is coming by a particular stop, I jsut have to wait. As it takes less than 10 to drive downtown even from Avondale, I don't know that I'm going to wait 30 minutes for a trolley.
The Timing - 5AM? I don't believe anyone who gets to work at 5:30 AM is going to use this. First of all, there is NO ONE on the road. Second, they are getting the first parking spot in the garage - why give that up? Change it to 6:30 to 9, and you get the same work crowd, and you capture people who either want to stay late at work, hit a happy hour, or go to the gym.
^ Agree. Yet another good idea that will suffer from poor implementation. Yay JTA!
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn72/Vendingman/RiversideStreetcarcopy.jpg)
I posted this as my dream streetcar route a year or so ago.
Quote from: urbanjacksonville on July 21, 2010, 06:23:31 AM
Badass! This is awesome news! I have set up an event on Facebook to show the numbers of people planning to go. If you're on Facebook and are planning to attend, add yourself to the list or leave a public comment. There is a video and other resources on the FB event too.
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=137423262954585
We are trying to get a critical mass of people to use their lunch break on Friday to show support for transit options besides that are not busses. If you want more transit options in Jacksonville, this is your chance. So pack and lunch or eat at your desk and come represent at JTA on Friday!
Damn Joey! IT'S A FREAKING BUS...
NOT A STREETCAR
NOT A TROLLEY
NOT EVEN A DECENT FAKE
IT'S ANOTHER STINKING,
CLINKING, CLANKING, CLATTERING,
COLLECTION OF CALIGINOUS JTA JUNK!
Think I'm going to start a facebook page for deluded people! If you think trading wooden fake trolley seats for somewhat comfortable bus seats is an improvement, I've got a bridge for you!
OCKLAWAHA
Watch it Ock. JTA doesn't look kindly on employees who tell them the truth. You are going to blow that job interview for their mass transit lackey! :D
Told y'all I wouldn't last 14 minutes!
Truth hurts don't it boyz!
OCKLAWAHA
I would think that the 5am start time is because it is merging with the current WS1 route and must accomodate the resident riders already using that service. JTA appears to be trying to get more bang for the buck and that's a good thing.
QuoteThe Route - Riverside Avenue is not a good choice because it only serves the commercial area. If you're running it 5 to 7:30, then you are looking to serve residents. Move it up one block to Oak. It's the historic streetcar road, and you better serve the northern residents
The Headways - 30 minute is WAY too long (15 is pushing it). Remember, with a trolley, the idea is that it is frequent service. Plus, I don't necessarily know what time a trolley is coming by a particular stop, I jsut have to wait. As it takes less than 10 to drive downtown even from Avondale, I don't know that I'm going to wait 30 minutes for a trolley.
The Timing - 5AM? I don't believe anyone who gets to work at 5:30 AM is going to use this. First of all, there is NO ONE on the road. Second, they are getting the first parking spot in the garage - why give that up? Change it to 6:30 to 9, and you get the same work crowd, and you capture people who either want to stay late at work, hit a happy hour, or go to the gym.
I can see what you're saying about Riverside Avenue... but one positive may be that the road at Margaret/Riverside, Riverside/Stockton and down to Riverside/Park will be better maintained. That's some of the most poorly maintained intersections in this city in regards to potholes, etc.
It was noted that there will be 15 minute intervals during the busier periods, plus aren't much of the bus routes along St Johns now on one hour intervals?
QuoteI would think that the 5am start time is because it is merging with the current WS1 route and must accomodate the resident riders already using that service. JTA appears to be trying to get more bang for the buck and that's a good thing.
And I would agree with that assesment.
I'll be at the morning meeting. If anyone wants a pre-meeting breakfast at The Fox or possibly Uptown...
Quote from: fieldafm on July 21, 2010, 01:01:16 PMI can see what you're saying about Riverside Avenue... but one positive may be that the road at Margaret/Riverside, Riverside/Stockton and down to Riverside/Park will be better maintained. That's some of the most poorly maintained intersections in this city in regards to potholes, etc.
I don't think JTA should be in the business of putting transit where we need maintenance, we should put it where it would be best used. Oak Street has a lot of vacant retail/residential. Putting it here could help that, and be more convenient for the residential folks walking to it.
Quote from: fieldafm on July 21, 2010, 01:01:16 PM
It was noted that there will be 15 minute intervals during the busier periods, plus aren't much of the bus routes along St Johns now on one hour intervals?
If JTA is just trying to give the existing riders a prettier bus, then fine. However, I would think by dressing up the bus, you would be trying to get new transit riders that aren't currently using JTA services. For example, my Wife and I live in Riverside. She works at LPS (one of the Fidelity Spinoffs) on Riverside Avenue. Right now she drives it in about 8 minutes. She hates driving such a short distance, and she would love to use transit to get to work (her words, not mine). She would walk to a transit stop if she knew that she would wait, at most, 10-15 minutes. Waiting 30 minutes (then figure another 5-10 minutes from let's say Stockton Street, so a 40 minute commute), is not reasonable from Riverside IMO.
With the buses, the JTA scheduling folks give times that people can expect the bus to cross a certain point (whether or not they hit that, is another story). The trolley isn't designed that way - it's designed to just walk up to a stop, and one will show up. 10 Minutes, fine. 15 Minutes, okay but not great. 30 Minutes, unacceptable - I'm driving.
I see what you're saying about the intervals... I hadn't really thought of it like that whereas the PCT routes don't have specific times like the bus routes do. That's one thing I would like to find out about at the meeting Friday. If they are going to use the PCT service to reduce bus routes along this stretch(something that would make sense), timed stops would be crucial. Didn't really look at that perspective!
As far as Oak, yes that corridor is not what it once was... but wouldnt the proposed streetcar line help rectify that in a much more efficient manner?
This is great if it is a primer for streetcar. Fixed transit is what developers can investe around.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on July 21, 2010, 12:48:18 PM
I would think that the 5am start time is because it is merging with the current WS1 route and must accomodate the resident riders already using that service. JTA appears to be trying to get more bang for the buck and that's a good thing.
correct...and the 30 minute headways probably match or improve on the Ws1 schedule...while not ideal, 30 minute headways for bus routes is considered acceptable for many transit systems...if ridership increases significanly, then you go to 10-15-20 minute headways.
Or if ridership doesn't improve due to long headways, there is no incentive (on paper) to decrease the length of the headways, and ridership remains low.
Just like now.
40+ minute headways on the L9 (before it was rerouted - dammit) was obscene and one reason why I continued to commute by car in the days of $4.00/gallon gas. 40-minute headways are not convenient. At all. And that's if it's on schedule.
Yes do not make good plans dependant on halfass plans.
im a lil meh on this.....buses...buses....a bus with no windows..
(http://www.mollystrolleys.com/images/Interior-front%20view.jpg)
I can hardly wait!
30 minute headways are a huge improvement for JTA, but like Doc say's, close but no cigar! You can not test market a 10 minute headway service by sticking to 30 or 40 minute headways. The way to break with this stigma of BUS=BASIC TACKY ACCOMMODATION is not to dress it like a rolling whorehouse and call it a "Trolley", it's to fix the schedule and make sure the stops and equipment are top notch. In fact the new "BRT" shouldn't stand for "BASIC - RUDIMENTARY - TRANSIT", rather it really should be rapid in both headways and speed.
Speed and schedule concerns? If I send out counters to watch my buses, if the schedule says 3:42 that doesn't mean 3:41, and it sure as hell doesn't mean 3:43+ unless there is an iron clad reason! What time does the 3:10 to Yuma pull in JTA? In railroad speak? That means the wheel stops as the second hand sweeps over the 12 at precisely 3:10. This would be the advantage of a 24/7/365 JTA, where a Mike Blaylock, Mike Miller or James Boyle, might step on any bus, any route, any stop, at 2:10 AM, with a visible stop watch in hand.
Bottom line? JTA says it wants BRT, so lets act like it. There is NOTHING in the way of running fast, frequent, comfortable, close headway, buses in town right now. This route, not BRT but more of an urban type route should be among several that get greatly enhanced headways, and better equipment. Ditto for everything close in. Closer more densely populated routes should get the super close headways, BRT next, and so forth, this isn't rocket science but sometimes I think it might as well be. If they really want this to sing, it should go into the business district at Fairfax, and loop the Roosevelt Plaza. This would put business and shopping at both ends with heavy dense residential in the middle.
Remember the route (or damn close to it) was created by a streetcar company with 8 minute headways. History tells us even that wasn't good enough and the City forced the company to go to 5 minute headways! Sure is a good thing they converted it to the new improved, flexible, diesel bus products...
(http://attractions.uptake.com/blog/files/2008/11/3070465387_4ef6e979b2.jpg)
Cane back seats with leatherette cushions.
(http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/14/6c/b0/interior.jpg)
REAL Leather anyone?
Due to the streetcar, OAK is NOT a good choice for this morphodite-bus-potato chip truck-thing, it is still underlain with railroad ties from the streetcar days and is already quite the corduroy road. Sitting on the fake wooden trolley seats (many of the real ones were plush velvet or leather) bouncing over that road should shake the fillings from your teeth. Not to mention that a bad road should shorten the life expenctcy of this bastard child of the transit world to about 3 weeks. We could at least place bets on which piece of glued on plastic wood will fall on passenger X first.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 21, 2010, 10:24:36 AM
Quote from: urbanjacksonville on July 21, 2010, 06:23:31 AM
Badass! This is awesome news! I have set up an event on Facebook to show the numbers of people planning to go. If you're on Facebook and are planning to attend, add yourself to the list or leave a public comment. There is a video and other resources on the FB event too.
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=137423262954585
We are trying to get a critical mass of people to use their lunch break on Friday to show support for transit options besides that are not busses. If you want more transit options in Jacksonville, this is your chance. So pack and lunch or eat at your desk and come represent at JTA on Friday!
Damn Joey! IT'S A FREAKING BUS...
NOT A STREETCAR
NOT A TROLLEY
NOT EVEN A DECENT FAKE
IT'S ANOTHER STINKING,
CLINKING, CLANKING, CLATTERING,
COLLECTION OF CALIGINOUS JTA JUNK!
Think I'm going to start a facebook page for deluded people! If you think trading wooden fake trolley seats for somewhat comfortable bus seats is an improvement, I've got a bridge for you!
OCKLAWAHA
Ock's Descriptions are uniquely Ocklawaha!! :D
Despite the possibility of JTA not executing properly on this, it does seem there's a shift within the agency in their thinking when it comes to planning. They're starting to think about attracting people who don't necessarily HAVE to take the bus (crazy idea, huh??). Does anyone else share this feeling or am I being overly optimistic?
I take the bus to work from Riverside to the Southside on occasion but it's just not really convenient. I have to walk about a half mile at least to the bus in Riverside and about a mile from the nearest stop to my office. That's on top of the fact that I start work at 8 but my only options are to get there around 7:30 or 8:15.
Not perfect, not close, but slowly getting better - JTA
QuoteIf they really want this to sing, it should go into the business district at Fairfax, and loop the Roosevelt Plaza. This would put business and shopping at both ends with heavy dense residential in the middle.
That's a good point Ock!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 21, 2010, 10:58:28 PM
30 minute headways are a huge improvement for JTA, but like Doc say's, close but no cigar! You can not test market a 10 minute headway service by sticking to 30 or 40 minute headways.
I doubt the proposed streetcar would run on 10-minute headways....I'm expecting 15 minutes at best (fyi....the Tampa line now runs on 15-20 minute headways).
Remember folks...going from 60 minutes to 30 minutes requires an additional vehicle + drivers....the operating and maintenance cost of that is over $100,000 per year (not including vehicle purchase)....the same is true when going from 30 to 15...or 20 to 10.
From the articleQuotePart of the proposed Jacksonville Transportation Authority’s, September service modification, would include combining resources from our WS1 and current Riverside Trolley routes. The proposal would save operating costs associated with both and provide improved trolley service beginning with a new early morning and continuing through to early evening hours. Additionally, the proposal would include a fare increase from $0.50 to $1.00 however; service will also be available on Saturday with less frequent service.
There are a few things in this quote that would be good for the public to ask tomorrow.
1. What are the current operating costs for the WS1 and Riverside PCT?
2. What are the current headways for the WS1 and Riverside PCT?
3. What are the estimated operational savings of the combined service as proposed?
4. What would be the additional operational cost for a combined service with 15-minute headways during peak hours?
5. What would be the additional operational cost for a combined service with 15-minute headways all day?
Withouth having knowledge of this type of information it's hard to judge how easy or difficult it would be to run a reliable user friendly service where riders won't have to worry about spaced out headways.
Yes the 30-minute turnarounds are considered acceptable by the people who have no choice but to ride the bus. The whole idea here is to draw a different crowd to use the service, not to continue milking JTA's crowd of "last-resorts" e.g., people who ride the bus because they can't afford a car. There aren't too many of those left in Riverside.
If this thing has any hope of becoming more than just another trashy bus, it needs to have a 10-15min headway max and needs to change its route to serve the Northern section of King Street (where all the bars are) and Park Street. Riverside Ave. isn't going to attract any riders at those hours, the only reason it has riders now are the people who don't have cars but need to go the medical offices. That traffic dries up outside of business hours.
(http://www.sfmta.com/cms/mcentral/images/image019.jpg)
A better engineered roadway, with a grade the same length at only 3% makes for drastic changes in our math. The car now would obtain an elevation of 30 feet and develop 1,500,000 foot pounds of energy at the top of the grade. The car can now maintain 21 miles per hour for the 30 seconds it would take to surmount the grade. The power required from the motors would be 92 HP and the power station would feed no less then 182 HP.
Time saved in example 2 is 10 seconds and the output of the feed station would be the difference of 216 and 182 HP, or 34 HP for 30 seconds and 216 HP for 10 seconds. Even if JEA charged only .01 cent per HP of energy delivered, this would still amount to a savings in example 2 of .0088 every time a car surmounted the hill. Factor in the true cost of energy x the number of short steep grades and you come up with something like a true cost of operation, less expenses for car, labor, etc...
Bottom line TU, if we don't make the freaking effort, we'll really never know what our transit system can do. Ridership estimates are just lucky guesses at best, and can be catastrophic at worst (Skyway). I say choose a few close in lines, well fed by dense urban population, other transit routes and adjacent businesses, and give it a 6 month trial. No one expects to see 5 minute headways again in our lifetime, but 10 - 15 isn't all that far from what the PCT does today. (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_NtgXlrcvXZA/R7M5oljL5DI/AAAAAAAAK6c/BNrmZ4BdEIQ/s400/POSTCARD+-+CHICAGO+-+STREETCAR+CONDUCTOR+IN+DRESS+UNIFORM+-+SEPIA+-+NICE+-+1908.jpg)
lake, did you go to the Hearing and raise those points?
I'm just getting back to town after a brief trip to Lakeland. However, I do plan to attend tomorrow.
interesting plan, now bring on the trolley, and eventually the return of streetcars!!
Lunch trolley to expand; may cost morehttp://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-07-22/story/lunch-trolley-expand-may-cost-more
QuoteMonthly bus ridership for the Riverside Trolley, a bus service from downtown to Five Points, during fiscal 2010:
October 2009: 5,491
November 2009: 4,685
December 2009: 4,228
January 2010: 3,934
February 2010: 3,295
March 2010: 4,285
April 2010: 4,577
May 2010: 4,538
June 2010: 5,329
Monthly bus ridership for the WS1 bus route during fiscal 2010. This route takes people from downtown to Jacksonville NAS while going through Avondale and Ortega:
October 2009: 3,665
November 2009: 3,208
December 2009: 3,279
January 2010: 3,143
February 2010: 3,032
March 2010: 3,718
April 2010: 3,372
May 2010: 3,309
June 2010: 3,463
Source: JTA
The Jacksonville Transportation Authority will have two meetings today on planned changes to the city's bus route, from 11 a.m.-1 p.m. and 4-6 p.m. Both meetings will be at the JTA offices at 100 N. Myrtle Ave. The first hour of both meetings will be an open-house format. A formal presentation on the changes will occur at noon and 5 p.m. People who cannot attend the meetings can still give public comment by e-mailing Kent Stover, JTA Service Planning Manager, at kstover@jtafla.com. All comments must be sent by the end of the day today.
Interesting that the shorter/more compact route, running for only part of the day 5 days a week, gets better ridership than a 'full' bus line.
Probably because?:
1. It serves a target demographic
2. It serves a target geographic area
3. Headways under 40 minutes
Based on these numbers, and IMO, integrating WS1 with the PCT route and finding a not-so-happy-medium between the two lines' existing headways will serve to kill both.
Fail.
I've never understood what appears to be an obsession with providing door-to-door service on public transit. There's no reason for the proposed detour onto Post/Margaret--that intersection is four blocks from Riverside and Post and five blocks from Riverside and Margaret. Keeping the service on Riverside would save three turns and a trip through Five Points (on Margaret, which must yield to traffic on Park) in each direction. Jacksonville has a number of relatively long transportation corridors. Use them; don't avoid them.
And while I'm at it: it makes no sense to have several buses that run down parallel streets only a few blocks apart (Riverside/St. Johns, Park, Herschel). Consolidate them and provide more frequent service. It's nearly impossible to figure out when the next bus will come when they're all late by unpredictable amounts, so you could easily be stuck waiting for the next bus on the schedule while another one passes by, two blocks away.
Quote from: dcandeto on July 23, 2010, 01:36:23 PM
I've never understood what appears to be an obsession with providing door-to-door service on public transit. There's no reason for the proposed detour onto Post/Margaret--that intersection is four blocks from Riverside and Post and five blocks from Riverside and Margaret. Keeping the service on Riverside would save three turns and a trip through Five Points (on Margaret, which must yield to traffic on Park) in each direction. Jacksonville has a number of relatively long transportation corridors. Use them; don't avoid them.
And while I'm at it: it makes no sense to have several buses that run down parallel streets only a few blocks apart (Riverside/St. Johns, Park, Herschel). Consolidate them and provide more frequent service. It's nearly impossible to figure out when the next bus will come when they're all late by unpredictable amounts, so you could easily be stuck waiting for the next bus on the schedule while another one passes by, two blocks away.
Excellent point!
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 22, 2010, 12:25:04 PM
Riverside Ave. isn't going to attract any riders at those hours, the only reason it has riders now are the people who don't have cars but need to go the medical offices. That traffic dries up outside of business hours.
what about all the people that work at St. Vincents...especially the non-traditional shifts...are they not potential cutomers?
Have been out of town for the last few days but I did get a response from Karen Stover.
The expanded service will indeed operate on specific time points and a schedule will be available. The new PCT trolley service will have 35 minute headways on non-peak times, and 12 minute headways b/w 11AM and 2:30PM.
I did ask Lake's questions regarding current cost structures and expected cost savings, but did not get a specific answer to these questions.
Fieldafm, isn't it Ken Stover? Or does he have a relative at JTA too? ;)
Quote from: stjr on August 03, 2010, 12:23:43 PM
Fieldafm, isn't it Ken Stover? Or does he have a relative at JTA too? ;)
Well that was embarassing!
Quote from: fieldafm on August 03, 2010, 12:34:25 PM
Quote from: stjr on August 03, 2010, 12:23:43 PM
Fieldafm, isn't it Ken Stover? Or does he have a relative at JTA too? ;)
Well that was embarassing!
I do it all the time, Field!
Coming soon....
(http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3030/picture002hd.jpg)
Hopefully those in the hood will ride this quite a bit and we can show JTA that any potential streetcar lines would have substantial ridership numbers to feed into downtown and the other surrounding urban neighborhoods.
^ I just hope a half ass bus isn't supposed to be representative of impact of a great streetcar line.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/S_9Skj3ZJqI/AAAAAAAACdA/cMRrtYRjsyw/s800/Heritage%20Bus.jpg)
HEY! Even I want to ride this.
Think Ock hates fake trolleys? buses? Here is the deal folks, DON'T PEE ON MY LEG AND TELL ME ITS RAINING! I hate fakes* and as a result, have encouraged JTA to do something different, let's be the first city to go with HERITAGE BUS! Reproductions and vintage vehicles are available and a reproduction 1920 era bus is after all...A BUS! Just as a reproduction vintage streetcar IS A STREETCAR. Just don't tell me your bass boat is a retired BLUE ANGELS plane, no matter how much glue and plastic you stick on it.
FAKES = BAD, VINTAGE REPRODUCTIONS = GOOD(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/R288zFRs-cI/AAAAAAAAAKI/nSDQRwzVXTo/s800/Bus%20Servern%20Lamb%20resort.JPG) (http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/R286dVRs-XI/AAAAAAAAAJg/eeZarub31is/s800/Bus%20Severn%20Lamb%20mouse%20cool.JPG)
Well as I predicted they merged it with another line, and this will result in the failure of the concept.
And Tufsu, replying to your previous post, no I don't think the employees working at St. Vincents and the medical offices are going to be bus customers, if you look at what doctors and nurses make most all of those folks will have cars. Which means they won't be riding the bus, since nobody whose time is worth anything can afford to deal with JTA. Their crappy and unreliable 'service' is nothing but a last resort for people who cannot afford any other option. It isn't a real public transit system in the traditional sense at all.
Back in the real world, nobody is going to wait an hour in the rain and heat with no shelters, to get on a bus that for no legitimate reason is running an additional hour or two late beyond its absurdly long scheduled headways, and then have to pay for the privilege of dealing with JTA's famously rude/nasty drivers, only to wind up missing whatever meeting they were going to anyway. People are forced to spend 2, 3, 4+ hours just trying to go a whopping 10 miles on JTA. It's ludicrous, and all of this has the exact effect you would expect: Nobody uses JTA who doesn't have to, and the rest of us feel terrible for everyone who has to deal with that nightmare.
You'd think they couldn't screw this concept up, right? It's so simple. Take some drunks from Riverside to Downtown and back, and vice versa, stimulating commerce and development in the process. It's a win-win. What idiot decided that integrating it with a regular bus line with 10 different stops nowhere near the dining/entertainment venues that it was originally supposed to serve, and then curtailing service during the hours when it would actually be used, was an improvement?
The reality:
JTA, in all of its incompetent glory, feels threatened by fixed rail transit. Why? Couldn't tell you. It probably relates back to the fact that the same asinine idiots who originally designed this mess of a system are still running JTA, and they'll go down with the ship before they admit they built it wrong. That's my guess. Or maybe the giant Skyway boondoggle scared them off the entire concept? Can hardly blame them there, what a disaster that thing is.
But whatever the reason for it, they are clearly quite committed to undermining the development of rail-based public transit. When JAX-St. Aug commuter rail became a real possibility, JTA tried to usurp both the demand and the federal funding for it by announcing "B(R)T" on the US-1 corridor. And I put the "R" in parentheses because nothing about JTA is "Rapid".
When the concept of a Riverside-Downtown streetcar line started gaining critical mass, JTA, which as a matter of practice completely ignores the needs of its ridership, suddenly responded by announcing the Riverside Trolley. But as usual, this is an obvious ploy aimed at killing the discussion of a streetcar, not any effort to serve any actual useful purpose. JTA first designed an intentionally flawed route in an area without demand for the type of service JTA provides. And as if that wasn't already bad enough, the final execution wound up being just taking an existing bus route and re-naming it "Riverside Trolley" and doubling the fares. Nice.
Unfortunately, if history repeats itself, JTA will use the inevitable result as evidence that there is no demand for rail. And that is untrue, and seriously messed up. The Riverside Trolley is already FUBAR before it ever picks up its first rider. But the real problem is JTA's consistent undermining of any efforts to create rail-based transit. Each time they usurp a rail concept and ruin it with crappy buses and incompetent execution, they actually get the benefit of turning around and saying to COJ and the feds "see we told you it wouldn't work."
The whole situation is ridiculous.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 05, 2010, 09:17:15 AM
Back in the real world, nobody is going to wait an hour in the rain and heat with no shelters, to get on a bus that for no legitimate reason is running an additional hour or two late beyond its absurdly long scheduled headways, and then have to pay for the privilege of dealing with JTA's famously rude/nasty drivers, only to wind up missing whatever meeting they were going to anyway.
agreed...which is why JTA is replacing the 1-hour headway bus with a "trolley" that runs on 10-30 minute headways (depending on time of day)...and also why JTA is installing more shelters throughout town.
as to your concern about the route itself...I am confused...within Riverside and downtown, the proposed route is virtually identical to the current "trolley" route you seem to like....so what's the problem?
Actually, St. V's medical staff frequently walks to local eateries and stores. If they parked in the lot, it's a pain to lose your space just to run out for an hour at lunch time or do a little shopping.
In addition, this will be a big boon to seniors who have appointments at the hospital or all the nearby doctor's offices and don't want to deal with the senior bus or arrange a ride with family or friends.
Thank you for listening JTA.
It is a great place for transit I just hope they follow through with the plans for real streetcars.
They'll have to be pulled kicking and screaming. Hopefully, some rail-based mass transit projects will remain in the 2030 Mobility Plan's 5 year priority project list. At this point, it may be our best shot at getting something off the ground sooner, rather than later.
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 05, 2010, 09:38:45 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 05, 2010, 09:17:15 AM
Back in the real world, nobody is going to wait an hour in the rain and heat with no shelters, to get on a bus that for no legitimate reason is running an additional hour or two late beyond its absurdly long scheduled headways, and then have to pay for the privilege of dealing with JTA's famously rude/nasty drivers, only to wind up missing whatever meeting they were going to anyway.
agreed...which is why JTA is replacing the 1-hour headway bus with a "trolley" that runs on 10-30 minute headways (depending on time of day)...and also why JTA is installing more shelters throughout town.
as to your concern about the route itself...I am confused...within Riverside and downtown, the proposed route is virtually identical to the current "trolley" route you seem to like....so what's the problem?
The problem is that merging it with the existing bus line they added major delays and a bunch of unnecessary stops to a trolley that was intended to be a point-to-point shuttle service connecting two entertainment districts. Now that they've decided to cut costs by merging it into an existing bus line with a billion stops and that routinely runs 2 hours behind schedule, it is totally unuseable for its intended purpose. "Hey I'll meet you at TSI...oh crap nevermind I won't get there before closing." Or "Hey I'm headed to the Landing, it's 3pm so I should be there by 7!" LMAO.
And the only times at which the headways are 20 minutes is 2 hours during the middle of the day, which isn't when the trolley would be successful. The execution is so terrible, it's a failure before it's had its first rider.
I don't see how a bus that only goes to FSCJ will ever run more than 30 minutes behind...especially given that it will be on 30 minite headways...
and since it will run on 10-15 minute headways during the lunch period (like the current route) you wouldn't even know if a bus was behind schedule.
btw, you say the route can't be successful during the 2-hour mid-day peiod...the current ridership # for the "trolley" would disagree.
Let's wait and see how it works out. I'm happy about the extended hours and just hope JTA doesn't screw up something that has been successful so far. (Holding breath!)
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 05, 2010, 02:50:51 PM
I don't see how a bus that only goes to FSCJ will ever run more than 30 minutes behind...especially given that it will be on 30 minite headways...
and since it will run on 10-15 minute headways during the lunch period (like the current route) you wouldn't even know if a bus was behind schedule.
btw, you say the route can't be successful during the 2-hour mid-day peiod...the current ridership # for the "trolley" would disagree.
Tufsu, it won't be possible to tell how many people are riding the "Trolley" and how many people are riding the WS route, because they're merging them. Also, yeah I agree I can't possibly see how the silly bus could be more than 30 minutes behind, but has that ever prevented most of JTA's buses from being hours behind schedule for no reason? No.
I will wait and see how it works out, but unlike the original concept for a point-to-point connection between the Riverside and Downtown dining/entertainment districts, this re-named bus route is of no use to me.
Chris...........I am with you on this one! If there is ever a way to bollux something that is even close to working, I would bet money JTA will will find a way, under the guise of improvement, to screw things up!
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 05, 2010, 04:29:59 PM
I will wait and see how it works out, but unlike the original concept for a point-to-point connection between the Riverside and Downtown dining/entertainment districts, this re-named bus route is of no use to me.
well then I can only assume that you either never found the existing trolley route of use or you're just not willing to ride with "others".
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 06, 2010, 12:40:43 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 05, 2010, 04:29:59 PM
I will wait and see how it works out, but unlike the original concept for a point-to-point connection between the Riverside and Downtown dining/entertainment districts, this re-named bus route is of no use to me.
well then I can only assume that you either never found the existing trolley route of use or you're just not willing to ride with "others".
This is hilarious...a rich white guy just pulled the race card on me, LOL!
But Tufsu, look, it's simple. This trolley was supposed to be a 10 or 15 minute wait for a ride to downtown entertainment. Now it's a 40-minute wait (assuming the bus is on time, which we all know JTA never is) for a ride that will take an hour thanks to all the stops you have to make.
This wasn't supposed to be another stupid bus route, it was supposed to serve a specific purpose that it doesn't serve anymore. Who in their right mind is going to wait an hour or more to ride a bus for another hour just to go downtown when you could have already been there an hour and 50 minutes ago by just taking your car. You have to remember this is Riverside/Avondale, everybody's got a car. JTA can't treat this like their normal demographic, or it will fail. Actually it's a failure already, just another ho-hum bus route that nobody's going to use.
Chris, not sure I get your complaint 40 minutes between buses - according to the JTA website
QuoteWS1 - Riverside Trolley
The merger of the WS1 and the Riverside Trolley will mean expanded hours for the trolley. Previously a midday service only, the Riverside Trolley will run every 35 minutes from 5 a.m. to 7:30 p.m. and every 12 minutes during the peak weekday lunch rush (11 a.m. to 2:30 p.m.) The route is also expanding to include FSCJ Kent campus, St. Vincent’s Medical Center and the Shoppes of Avondale. The trolley will also run every 70 minutes on Saturday. The fare will now be $1, up from 50 cents.
So, during the hours the old Riverside Trolley ran, the time between buses will be the same. The longer waits are during times the RT did not run. Also, between 5 Points in DT, I don't see that it will be making any more stops than it does now. Now, if you catch a bus at 5 Points that is going to FSCJ instead of DT, then you might have a problem (and need to pay better attention).
One problem I see, is that the fare for the Trolley portion of the route is doubling, which, I expect will drive some riders away. Shame they couldn't have kept the 50 cent fare between 5 Points and downtown.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on September 06, 2010, 07:22:35 PM
Chris, not sure I get your complaint 40 minutes between buses - according to the JTA website
QuoteWS1 - Riverside Trolley
The merger of the WS1 and the Riverside Trolley will mean expanded hours for the trolley. Previously a midday service only, the Riverside Trolley will run every 35 minutes from 5 a.m. to 7:30 p.m. and every 12 minutes during the peak weekday lunch rush (11 a.m. to 2:30 p.m.) The route is also expanding to include FSCJ Kent campus, St. Vincent’s Medical Center and the Shoppes of Avondale. The trolley will also run every 70 minutes on Saturday. The fare will now be $1, up from 50 cents.
So, during the hours the old Riverside Trolley ran, the time between buses will be the same. The longer waits are during times the RT did not run. Also, between 5 Points in DT, I don't see that it will be making any more stops than it does now. Now, if you catch a bus at 5 Points that is going to FSCJ instead of DT, then you might have a problem (and need to pay better attention).
One problem I see, is that the fare for the Trolley portion of the route is doubling, which, I expect will drive some riders away. Shame they couldn't have kept the 50 cent fare between 5 Points and downtown.
The lateness of JTA buses is a direct function of how many stops they make. You can't screw it up too badly when it's got 2 stops, but the current configuration is a whole other story. The WS1 route they merged it into routinely runs an hour or two behind, and this will be no different (duh, since it's the same route).
Also, the initial execution was not the original concept either. This thing was not supposed to be lunch-only.
Here we go again with .....scheduling improvements to increase head times plus the added effecient slant of merging what was two routes into one! Told you JTA would muck things up! I don't for the life of me understand! It would seem maybe that JTA is bound and determined to do things their way............it does not seem to matter if its right.....or wrong......cost effective or efficient! JTA's way or forgetaboutit!
The saddest part is JTA's continual attempts to blame their financial predicament on the economy, despite the fact that their ridership numbers are almost entirely bogus and even with the cooked books it's still obvious they have been in decline for years. It's sad when you really think about. At a time when the economy sucks, people have more incentive than ever to try and cut costs, which in a city with a functional system would probably mean taking public transportion. Auto insurance, gasoline, maintenance, car payments, it all adds up pretty quick.
So here we are in an economy that probably has more people than at any time in the past 40 years incentivized to try out public transportation, and what happens? Despite the obvious cost savings and the fact that we're in a recession, people are still fleeing JTA in droves, and their revenue is down a whopping 30% at a time when people in cities with functional transportation systems are actually giving public transportation a whirl. I was similarly stunned a few years back when gas was around $4/gal, wondering why JTA wasn't kicking butt?
The answer is that nobody who has anything productive to do can afford to deal with JTA. I have two friends who regularly ride the bus, and one says it takes her 3 hours or longer to get from Springfield to Riverside. She actually walks, because she says she gets here faster and actually spends less time in the elements, since JTA is stuck in 1902 being the only transportation authority I can think of that has no bus shelters.
And every time someone new thinks "hmm...maybe I'll try the bus" they wind up having such a horror story it becomes legendary. Take fieldafm on this site, for example. Professional type, owns a car, but decided to keep an open mind and try out the bus. They alienated and pissed off that customer so royally he'd probably swim to work before ever using JTA again, and that's the kind of customer you want to attract to public transportation. JTA is ridiculous, despite the highest gas prices on record and a recession, people are still fleeing them as fast as possible. Really says something about the service...