http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=13452096&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=1&color=dade00&fullscreen=1
Over the weekend we produced a video to Save the Riverside Trolley and spur ideas about optional means of public transportation for the city. We are encouraging all friends, influencers and decision makers to Help Get Jacksonville Back on Tracks (get it!) and not only voice support for the Riverside Trolley, but a fixed-rail trolley option to connect Jacksonville's urban neighborhoods and beyond.
We want help spreading this message via social media, email and word of mouth to create a critical mass of support on July 23rd at JTA for the Riverside Trolley. We feel the trolley is, and will continue to be, an import economic driver for Downtown and Riverside businesses. To see the service dissolved would set us all back in a time when we are trying to build more connections in the city.
See the Facebook Event http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=137423262954585
See the video http://vimeo.com/13452096
Voice online support on the JTA site http://www.jtafla.com/RidingJTA/showPage.aspx?Sel=19
JTA event page http://www.jtafla.com/News/showPage.aspx?news=105
QuoteOn July 23rd from 11am to 1pm JTA hosts a public hearing to present changes to the transit system, including Riverside Trolley.
I'm inviting you to join me at the JTA offices downtown to express your support for the future of transportation in Jacksonville. Support for the proposed Riverside Trolley service is critical to its continued success.
Are buses a sustainable answer? Is the Riverside Trolley the gateway drug to a fixed streetcar line connecting Urban Core neighborhoods and beyond. It could be if we show JTA that's what we want.
Please contact me if you have any additional questions. I appreciate you reaching out last week and I hope to see you on Friday.
Joey
I believe they are expanding the Riverside Trolley. We have an article about it scheduled to run on Wednesday. Here is an ongoing thread about the proposed changes:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,9141.0.html
Ennis, I've received conflicting reports that the Riverside Trolley is on the chopping block. So you are confirming that it WILL NOT be eliminated when it's funding runs out in September?
Yes, from my understanding service is going to be extended and upgraded.
I heard they're trying to extend the trolley down to Avondale and start running it on weekends.
The trolley isnt being chopped, it is being expanded. Service to Avondale and on Saturday. Headways will be every 15 minutes. I still think it is important to let JTA know your thougths on this service and the future of streetcar.
They need to continue the service..........they want to save a buck......fire the Mayor!
Quote from: CS Foltz on July 19, 2010, 05:04:57 PM
They need to continue the service..........they want to save a buck......fire the Mayor!
good point...especially since JTA is a state authority and is not connected with City government!
I believe the proposal is to save a buck by combining an existing bus route with the trolley.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 19, 2010, 10:08:13 PM
I believe the proposal is to save a buck by combining an existing bus route with the trolley.
Now THAT sounds like a win-win!
Here's what's posted on the RAP Blog:
QuoteProposed changes include combining the Riverside Trolley and the WS1 (Ortega-NAS) to create one route from downtown along Riverside Avenue to King Street, then south on St. Johns Avenue to Herschel Street, and west onto San Juan to Roosevelt Boulevard, then north to FSCJ Kent Campus.
The headway would be 30 minutes. During the lunch time, an additional vehicle is being considered to increase frequency to 15 minutes. The Ortega portion between FSCJ Kent and NAS main gate would be served by a Community Shuttle during peak hours only. A new NAS Community Shuttle would operate on base during peak hours connecting at the main gate with the Ortega Community Shuttle.
Although I love this idea, I do wonder whether the folks who treat this as a lunch shuttle will rebel against the additional drive time. The extension to Avondale probably adds at least 10 minutes to the trip.
Quote from: grimss on July 21, 2010, 08:52:57 AM
Here's what's posted on the RAP Blog:
QuoteProposed changes include combining the Riverside Trolley and the WS1 (Ortega-NAS) to create one route from downtown along Riverside Avenue to King Street, then south on St. Johns Avenue to Herschel Street, and west onto San Juan to Roosevelt Boulevard, then north to FSCJ Kent Campus.
The headway would be 30 minutes. During the lunch time, an additional vehicle is being considered to increase frequency to 15 minutes. The Ortega portion between FSCJ Kent and NAS main gate would be served by a Community Shuttle during peak hours only. A new NAS Community Shuttle would operate on base during peak hours connecting at the main gate with the Ortega Community Shuttle.
Although I love this idea, I do wonder whether the folks who treat this as a lunch shuttle will rebel against the additional drive time. The extension to Avondale probably adds at least 10 minutes to the trip.
I'm sure Ock would see this as well, but doesn't that proposal sound a LOT like what the old trolley route was??
They're turning this thing into just another city bus that nobody will ride.
The original idea here was to connect various dining and entertainment areas to foster growth. Like connecting Riverside to Bay Street, etc.
But now JTA, in all it's infinite lack of wisdom, has evidently seen the opportunity to pinch a couple pennies, and they are massaging the plans for the trolley so they can consolidate existing bus routes into it to save money.
Which means it's just one more crappy bus that happens to look like a trolley. Which ruins the entire idea.
Nobody will use this thing, and it will be a total failure, if they keep changing the route in these ways so it takes an hour to get downtown. 99.9999% of people in this neighborhood have cars, and aren't going to wait an hour to make what amounts to a 5 minute car trip. The only way the trolley will work is if it sticks to the original concept.
make that comment on JTA's public comment form or on their facebook page.
Quote from: fsujax on July 23, 2010, 11:15:23 AM
make that comment on JTA's public comment form or on their facebook page.
Done.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 23, 2010, 11:09:03 AM
The original idea here was to connect various dining and entertainment areas to foster growth. Like connecting Riverside to Bay Street, etc.
from what I can tell, there is very little change to the proposed route versus the current route....so other than the increased fare from $0.50 to $1.00, what is the downside to this versus the current "trolley"?
from the other thread on the matter:
Quote from: Doctor_K on July 23, 2010, 09:28:25 AM
Interesting that the shorter/more compact route, running for only part of the day 5 days a week, gets better ridership than a 'full' bus line.
Probably because?:
1. It serves a target demographic
2. It serves a target geographic area
3. Headways under 40 minutes
Based on these numbers, and IMO, integrating WS1 with the PCT route and finding a not-so-happy-medium between the two lines' existing headways will serve to kill both.
Fail.
And also what Chris said:
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 23, 2010, 11:09:03 AM
They're turning this thing into just another city bus that nobody will ride.
The original idea here was to connect various dining and entertainment areas to foster growth. Like connecting Riverside to Bay Street, etc.
But now JTA, in all it's infinite lack of wisdom, has evidently seen the opportunity to pinch a couple pennies, and they are massaging the plans for the trolley so they can consolidate existing bus routes into it to save money.
Which means it's just one more crappy bus that happens to look like a trolley. Which ruins the entire idea.
Nobody will use this thing, and it will be a total failure, if they keep changing the route in these ways so it takes an hour to get downtown. 99.9999% of people in this neighborhood have cars, and aren't going to wait an hour to make what amounts to a 5 minute car trip. The only way the trolley will work is if it sticks to the original concept.
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 23, 2010, 11:35:21 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 23, 2010, 11:09:03 AM
The original idea here was to connect various dining and entertainment areas to foster growth. Like connecting Riverside to Bay Street, etc.
from what I can tell, there is very little change to the proposed route versus the current route....so other than the increased fare from $0.50 to $1.00, what is the downside to this versus the current "trolley"?
The original idea behind it was for a trolley connecting the burgeoning entertainment district downtown with Riverside and/or San Marco. So the dining & entertainment venues were connected.
Now that JTA is actually planning it, they are turning it into another bus route with too many stops and too long a route, which will inevitably lead to 30-60 minute headways. That will kill any hope of the thing ever being a success, since that's not its purpose and 99% of this neighborhood doesn't use public transit.
This needs to connect the dining & entertainment venues, period. The way they're designing it is clearly an effort to consolidate existing bus routes to save money. Nobody around here takes a bus to go bar hopping, the execution as it's looking now isn't going to work in this demographic. Plain and simple.
And I don't see the point in connecting FSCJ to the route, unless/until they have dorms on campus. That speaks again to JTA's attempt to use this to cut costs and/or ease capacity by consolidating traditional bus routes, and that will kill the trolley's success and intended purpose.
I think we need to start a pool.........on just how long time wise it will take JTA to screw this up also! I am getting tired of renaming and so-called expansion for what...................more concrete? More Bus's? The bovines at JTA just do not see the light and I am getting tired of it! Poop on being Mr Niceguy, its about time to call them the Idiots they are!
Christ man, I rode the trolley twice today... and guess what, they were actually on time both times I boarded at different stops.
This has been in operation for 6 days now, lets give it at least say.... 10 days before you start complaining about it.
I DO NOT like that it does not stop at Roosevelt Square. Ock made a great point a few months ago about connecting it end to end with two major anchors(Landing and Roosevelt Square). No one ever responded to my multiple emails about this very question, and it was not addressed at the public meeting a few months ago either.
Haven't ridden the expanded route yet but planning to try it soon. I've ridden the trolley's old route many times and was always been impressed with the friendly drivers and the popularity of the trolley. Roosevelt mall would be a long drive from the current terminus at FSCJ and probably need several stops in between. For sure it would greatly expand the times needed for the route.
To me, it's all about connecting the routes end to end. Three stop lights down Herschel street, passing 4 existing bus stops wouldn't necessarily be a huge burden on the route itself... yet would connect three entire neighborhoods to a more useable and needed end point.
fieldafm...........I can wait 30 days or longer if you think it will help? Connectivity is what makes or breaks any route! My bitch is simple.......as you pointed out "To me, it's all about connecting the routes end to end"! Plus Crossing points, need to be timed to hook up with another arrival.....crossing to another route or the routes should cross to go to other parts of Jacksonville! It is a matter of timing and integration and I don't think that JTA has the smarts to do that! Simple straight line routes, maybe, if they can meet head times and there are no traffic issues.....road problems.......disabled vehicles and the bus don't die! Plenty of ways to do it, just waiting to see if JTA can come through or not.............after all, its our money!
Oh, I missed the part where your rant included something to do with end points... I was under the impression it was about some totally unrelated tie-in about concrete construction, which would likely be a veiled jab at Gate and Herb Peyton?
Why dont you use the service before you comment on it. Crossing routes? It doesnt criss-cross or interfere with other routes.
Quote from: stephendare on September 13, 2010, 02:24:35 PM
Quote from: urbanjacksonville on July 19, 2010, 02:28:44 PM
Over the weekend we produced a video to Save the Riverside Trolley and spur ideas about optional means of public transportation for the city. We are encouraging all friends, influencers and decision makers to Help Get Jacksonville Back on Tracks (get it!) and not only voice support for the Riverside Trolley, but a fixed-rail trolley option to connect Jacksonville's urban neighborhoods and beyond.
We want help spreading this message via social media, email and word of mouth to create a critical mass of support on July 23rd at JTA for the Riverside Trolley. We feel the trolley is, and will continue to be, an import economic driver for Downtown and Riverside businesses. To see the service dissolved would set us all back in a time when we are trying to build more connections in the city.
Are buses a sustainable answer? Is the Riverside Trolley the gateway drug to a fixed streetcar line connecting Urban Core neighborhoods and beyond. It could be if we show JTA that's what we want.
Joey
Joey. This was very well meaning and all, but where on earth did this story come from?
As weve been documenting since the beginning of the trolley line, theres only been talk of the recent expansion. You guys must have been pretty convinced about this to go to the effort of making a video to save a trolley line that was being expanded.
Did it come from the JTA?
IS THIS THE URBAN JACKSONVILLE TROLLEY?(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TI7YdZlBBgI/AAAAAAAAC9o/0uJRpqRkbhA/s800/PCT%205.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TI7YdaB40FI/AAAAAAAAC9s/9RvLEdWzUZQ/s400/PCT%207.jpg)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TI7Ydg1oo2I/AAAAAAAAC9w/o3RYcIiytuU/s800/PCT%208.jpg)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TI7YdmRStJI/AAAAAAAAC90/msj9JCR-rjE/s800/PCT%2011.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TI7Ydk2zWUI/AAAAAAAAC94/wCZDsfwOKHk/s800/PCT%2013.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TGCwN3y0KSI/AAAAAAAAC48/HkpXqShorqk/s400/PCT%202.jpg)
ANY QUESTIONS?This isn't the worst of it imo Stephen. The worst of it is that Joey apparently doesn't know the difference in a potato chip truck (PCT) dressed up to be a fake "trolley", and the REAL THING that we call a STREETCAR. UJ fails to recognize that if we ran this pct for 10,000 years, it WILL NOT do a single thing to prove a demand for a real streetcar. This isn't opinion, but a hard learned FACT in the transit industry.
You can call it a "trolley" if you want to Joey, and I can go into a McDonald's and call myself a BIG MAC, but it will not change the fundamental differences. Frankly a case could be made that I'm closer to a BIG MAC then the "trolley" is to a streetcar as I am after all 100% meat while your trolley on rubber bus tires with a polluting diesel engine is a far cry from a clean electric transit vehicle with steel wheels on steel rails.
Worse still, JACKSONVILLE is chock full of JOEYS who continue to surface and tell MJ things like "We don't need streetcars - we already have trolleys!" Toss in JTA types who in the past have said they will put "THE TROLLEY" on to test a future streetcar route, when they KNOW that it will do no such thing. As long as they can keep the population transit ignorant, they will continue to convince the powers that be that trolleys=streetcars (but cheaper-more flexible-and just as attractive) or that BUS RAPID TRANSIT or BRT is "just like rail only cheaper!"
Don't drink the Kool Aid, JTA is merely pissing on your leg and telling you it's raining.
Quote from: fieldafm on September 13, 2010, 09:18:56 PM
Oh, I missed the part where your rant included something to do with end points... I was under the impression it was about some totally unrelated tie-in about concrete construction, which would likely be a veiled jab at Gate and Herb Peyton?
+100
AMEN fieldafm to connecting the Roosevelt Plazas on 17 to the Landing DT!
It is a really nice bus route maybe one day it will be a trolley or other type of streetcar.
Ocklawaha JTA calls it a Trolley. Not me, I'm not the one who branded it. My message was to save whatever "they" were calling it because it's a good thing. In my opinion.
@Stephen, yes the information on them dissolving the trolley was incorrect, but I retracted that.
What's with the venom blog brothers? Don't rock the boat!
fieldafm..........I have ridden the Trolley, even though it is not a true trolley! Bus's with wheels are not a trolley by any stretch of the imagination! That route is pretty direct, for that area and that is the purpose is it not? Did not mention anything about Gate or concrete which have nothing to do with Riverside Trolley or do they?
No venom intended Joey, just a hard hell fire and brimstone correction aimed at the entire population of the city. Now we have Council members and Mayors, as well, who REALLY think we already have real "Trolleys." My contention is simply that we as blogger's can't afford to further confuse an already ignorant city. The arguments are hot and heavy against rail of all types, and the highway lobby with some help from certain airline buddies are spreading their "gospel' of rail-butchery as fast as they can print up and get it out.
One only has to ask oneself which is the LARGEST HIGHWAY builder, and HIGHWAY TRANSIT OPERATOR in North East Florida? Bingo! JTA is at the top of that pile, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to be an objective supporter of rail and other mass transit modes, when your already completely vested in funding every highway concept, think-tank, vehicle, or supplier. While mass transit buses - coaches and various types of rail - monorail mix very well under the same ownership and operation, the pavement end of that same highway transit operation is slanted to more lanes, less rail, and dedicated SPRAWL.
JTA has a few bright young employees who REALLY get it, Mr. Boyle comes to mind as one of the rising stars of the industry. Yet in just the last year of MJ and UJ, JTA has skidded from around the 60th largest bus fleet in America, well ahead of everyone else in Florida except Miami and Ft. Lauderdale, to number 95, behind Orlando, Tampa and damn near off the survey of America's top 100. The agency is an incompetent talent consuming beast that needs to be split. Our situation here is CRITICAL!
Sorry I tossed you on the alter to make a point, but I stand ready to help all of us "FIX" our transit mess in any way I can. You are a supporter and certainly one of the good guys in this battle which to me indicates your desire to lead and present a correct vision, I applaud you for that Joey.
OCKLAWAHA
AMEN to connecting ROOSEVELT SQ w/ The LANDING!
for all the reasons you guys mentioned. Yes.
but HOW How how do we sway the "deciderers"?
As a somewhat early rendition of the town-center idea, when the OLD Roosevelt Mall was converted to this configuration (which is a disgrace to its surroundings when one considers the Ortega Medical Arts buiding and Weise natural food shop BEHIND Publix and the BELK loading dock which visually severs the south end of shopping center i.e. Chamblin bookmine! C'mon we NEED the bookmine to ALWAYS thrive! that area has no public library within a bikeable distance and there are so many young families in that grid.)
I digress.. .
How do we mitigate the relative autonomy of the JTA?
Is JTA under the umbrella of our MPO? Is there any formal relationship there? If not, then I think there should be. I know we have the North Florida Transportation Planning Organization, but what are they? Who IS our MPO? What is the kind of organizational structure that exists in NE FL?
Atlanta's MPO is called the Atlanta Regional Council. They have a great website and routinely seek input from residents and they basically live for GT students' and researchers' input (and Emory's). MARTA is now under the overall ARC umbrella. It was really a large move. It has a seat at the table with the regional TPO (in charge of all of the other transit authorities), the counties, Atlanta, etc. It's very complex, but I can see a much clearer chain of command and organization structure with the Atlanta metro than I can with Jax. (This has been a process in the making for Atlanta metro because everyone in Atl squabbles and only recently have authorities and GDOT and city/county officials begun to work together).
Also, Atlanta developer John Dewberry (and former QB for Tech in late 80s) is the owner and manager of Roosevelt Mall. I met him once when he was looking for a house in Ortega and his corporate HQ is 3 blocks from where I live. I wished he would do something different with the Roosevelt Mall, still it is slightly better than Sleiman's God awful redo of the St. Johns theater site.
According to the North Florida TPO site ( http://www.northfloridatpo.com/ ) the JTA is a member agency of the TPO - with a seat on the Board, and two seats on the Technical Committee. Otherwise, JTA ( http://jtafla.com/ ) is an independent agency.
This is why we need something that has oversight on JTA and JEA and any other Agency! They are not too independent when it comes to their operating budget! I wish I could overrun project after project, get bonusus's to the upper management and generally waste here there and everywhere! City is no better when it comes to waste and the public really deserves better than what we get!
I'm not saying JTA is good CS....but their annual revenues and expenses have to match
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 26, 2010, 09:03:05 PM
I'm not saying JTA is good CS....but their annual revenues and expenses have to match
Yes, I agree.....bound by law to do so right? I wonder what happened to that multi-million dollar unused account that JTA had stashed and then found................That was the last that I heard about it! Or was that JEA............I have problems keeping them straight.......one zips you and the other zaps you!
zig zags logic though, yes?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
having experienced both impromptu and scheduled meetings with many planners invloved with unrelated projects over time, I must relay that even CoJ planning department heads admit they wish the left hand occasionally met its right, or knew their mother. lol.
I have been told specifically by Tre Kilbourn, that "no one here-thinks regionally here". We were speaking of our local elected individuals. to think regionally in matters as important as signage development alone has a way of improving a grand space on BOTH sides of an arterial. not to mention bringing the foot traffic!
The (new/restored?) Ortega (State Rd 211-not an arterial) community shuttle to Orange Park Kennel Club aka POKER room aka dog track facility on US17/Park ave at Wells rd south of i295.
This purposely avoids Roosevelt Square north of Chamblin Bookmine.
That area has no public library. 2 schools (Bayview elementary and Lake Shore Middle) but no close library. We, here in Jacksonville cannot seem to maintain centers for learning and mental development for the youth, students of any age and poor alike. Times are tough for most folks it seems. Look at the story on the Murray Hill library.
Why not connect the two bookmines?
I am not associated with or employed by Ron Chamblin nor have I ever been. He's a nice fella, we've met.
I have participated in roadside and sidewalk clean-ups and removal of several VW/mini size heaps of nuisance vegetation, vines and weeds dead and alive left to grow so long they turned into full fledged trees surrounding this man's Roosevelt/Lake Shore area gem.
Also on behalf of the many live aboards in the slew of marinas whose usual mode of transport along Lakeside-Lake Shore into Publix, is footing your way, or biking. so the homeless trail of wandering vagrants and muggers - YES FOLKS THE SAME ONES IN 5pts!- seriously _ the same bums! had too many places to hide/camp.
The Riverside Avondale Ortega Venetia route would be better for everyone, merchants and riders throughout this inner perimeter REGION EAST of CASSAT to the River. incuding the grid south of where SR21/Blanding takes off south from 17 after Plymouth St and FSCJ Kent.
This SPUI should have been built to its once proposed SPUR status which would have made it more like US17 through the MOSH/Crowne Plaza area of SanMarco/Riverplace stretch from the MainSt bridge. Same road. different iteration entirely.
BUT, IF Roosevelt had been elevated when there was $ to do it, precious Avondale would not have been "properly severed" as its own village. Don't get me wrong, as a native I'm glad we have it protected.
But I can also imagine San Juan, Blanding and Cassat as beautified thoroughfares not busted curb to curb.
MOVE THE DAMN Streetcar/ Shuttle for now - to 17 and another on Cassat south to Blanding south. Connect the 2 lines along the 3.5 empty acres along Shirley Ave west of the huge StripMall JTA recently purchased<??> .
This available tract could look quite similar to the skyway track out of Downtown to the Kings Ave garage passing over Morton's