Alright Jacksonville History buffs, any guess as to where this motorcycle shop once was? It's dated 1948 and it looks to be somewhere downtown? I'm a real big motorcycle fan and I stumbled across this photo on www.floridamemory.com (http://www.floridamemory.com).
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp02303.jpg)
It sure looks like the sign above the door says Harley-Davidson and if this is Jacksonville then thats George Adamecs first shop on the Northside, started in 1962. I'm not 100% sure where on the Northside it was. A call to Adamecs in Baymeadows could answer the question.
It's a possibility, however according to the site the picture is dated 1948 and those bikes are definately pre-62. I agree though that the sign says Harley Davidson.
It looks like University Blvd near the Arlington Road corner. But I'm probably wrong. Cool picture!
The license plate on the trike in the foreground says 1948 too.
Granite curbs say urban core. I don't think they were ever used in Arlington.
DW, you must have some really good graphic software! I had to flip the image upside down and I can read FLA and something B and the numbers 2-140 underneath.
If its not Adamec, and judging by the bikes it might not be, then I wonder who it is. My understanding was Adamec was the first Harley dealer in Jacksonville. I have someone over at the company checking on the actual location of the first store. I do know it was moved to the Arlington location in 1973..then the Orange Park store and finally the Baymeadows store was built. More history digging it sounds like.
Not good graphic hardware, bad eyes! I read the 140 as 1948! LOL!
The 2 indicated Duval County so we know the photo is local. Dade County was 1.
Quote from: Dog Walker on July 19, 2010, 01:47:10 PM
Not good graphic hardware, bad eyes! I read the 140 as 1948! LOL!
The 2 indicated Duval County so we know the photo is local. Dade County was 1.
So we know its definetly Jacksonville. I love solving riddles like this.
This may help guys... If you right click on the photo you will see...
http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp02303.jpg
I googled spottswood and come up with this... the photo is part of this collection... there may be a clue there...
http://www.floridamemory.com/photographiccollection/Collection_page.cfm?PR_ID=27
Quote from: stephendare on July 19, 2010, 02:06:10 PM
Im going to guess its downtown, and to be honest it looks like the London Bridge Building.
In the window you can see the reflection of the buildings across the street, one of which looks like the carnegie library.
So where exactly where those two buildings Stephen? All we need is their locations and a Sanborn Fire Insurance map of 1948.
Your probably correct Stephen... his studio was just down the street...
QuoteJack Spottswood, opened a photo studio in Jacksonville in 1915 and Mr. Spottswood owned the studio on West Adams Street for decades. As commercial photographers, the Spottswoods were kept on retainer by the railroads.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-03-24/story/1924-2009_spottswood_was_the_master_behind_the_lens?quicktabs_1=0
Was the Harley shop on Norwood Av across from Blue Boy Sandwich Shop an Adamec shop? I remember it in the early '70s.
I'm doing a search based on his studio AND the reflected images of buildings across the street.
Quote from: stephendare on July 19, 2010, 02:06:10 PM
Im going to guess its downtown, and to be honest it looks like the London Bridge Building.
In the window you can see the reflection of the buildings across the street, one of which looks like the carnegie library.
Dang I never even thought to go as far as reflections! HA... It does however slightly resemble the windows on the stip where London Bridge is. How long has that building been there...?
Upon further looking I'm not sure it is the London Bridge location... unless they have done some serious remodeling of the store front.
If you google map (street view) London Bridge it just doesn't quit look right.
I couldn't find the date of the building (London Bridge 100 E Adams St) on COJ either.
Not sure just where this took place at........springer front ends would be pre 1950, if I remember my Harley stuff! None of those bikes appear to be show room new and are modified according to their owners!
Ya that's another thing I meant to mention... I don't think it's a dealer. I'm pretty sure it's just a repair shop. Back in 1948 you only had a few choices when it came to motocycle manufacturers, so naturally Harley was most common.
There's nothing in the archives designating one area of Jacksonville from another, so this MIGHT be Springfield??
Have a look at the 1460 building, corner of N Main and W 5th St. Same block as Chan's Chinese.
I think those are drapes in the window making it look like the library. Plus whats the date on the library???? i thought it wasn't that old
No clue
I agree this appears to be downtown. Those look like at least two multi-story buildings in the window reflection but they seem to be no more than about 5 floors and one seems rather plain and simple in design. I am thinking, based on the street and building condition, that this is a "grittier" area than the central business district. More like a warehouse type district in the vicinity of the La Villa area, perhaps near Union Terminal or the old West Bay Post Office (could that be the "larger" building reflected in the window?). The sidewalk and street is in poor condition and the ability to park casually in the street like this implies a less trafficked area. Also, the men seem to be informally dressed for those days and leaving scattered empty garbage cans out in the street after a pickup means appearances here don't count for much.
I also agree the license plate shows "2" representing Duval County. The letters "FLA" appear to be abutted on either side by two characters, possibly the numbers "4" and "8" for the year 1948.
Noting that some cycles have carts attached and others have saddle bags, maybe this was the HQ for a motorcycle courier or delivery service. Being near the post office, REA, and the train station would make perfect sense for such a business back then.
Spottswood's photos are ALL OVER Whitey's Fish Camp in Clay County.
Quote from: stjr on July 19, 2010, 07:55:32 PM
I agree this appears to be downtown. Those look like at least two multi-story buildings in the window reflection but they seem to be no more than about 5 floors and one seems rather plain and simple in design. I am thinking, based on the street and building condition, that this is a "grittier" area than the central business district. More like a warehouse type district in the vicinity of the La Villa area, perhaps near Union Terminal or the old West Bay Post Office (could that be the "larger" building reflected in the window?). The sidewalk and street is in poor condition and the ability to park casually in the street like this implies a less trafficked area. Also, the men seem to be informally dressed for those days and leaving scattered empty garbage cans out in the street after a pickup means appearances here don't count for much.
I also agree the license plate shows "2" representing Duval County. The letters "FLA" appear to be abutted on either side by two characters, possibly the numbers "4" and "8" for the year 1948.
Noting that some cycles have carts attached and others have saddle bags, maybe this was the HQ for a motorcycle courier or delivery service. Being near the post office, REA, and the train station would make perfect sense for such a business back then.
I have no doubt this is Jacksonville, as the 2 is for sure Duval county. I own a classic car and I recently obtained a vintage tag for it, doing research a while ago I found a site with all of Florida's county codes for tags. I also agree that it is somewhere downtown as the marble curbs are a near dead giveaway. I ALSO agree that it is on the outskirts of downtown, I personally have looked at a few place on google map and though it may not be the exact building (it may be long demolished) it looks quite similar to the long strip of retail 2 stories on the 300 block of Broad Street (right next to Sikes & Stowe Auto Body and United Optical). Notice the extreme similarity in marble curbs, width of the sidewalk and gutter drains on the sides of the building.
All in all, I think it's going to come down to some business record books or somebody who was present in Jacksonville in 1948. But let's keep this going, it's very intriguing.
If anybody's headed to the library soon, ask them for the old phone/business directories. I'll bet we'd find it there.
I'd go, but I'm locked in meetings today. :(
This proved a most interesting query. Went to the library at lunchtime
According to the city directories:
1923 Harley Davidson sales at 8 Newnan St
1927 and 1930 at 913-15 Main St
1936 at 633-35 W Forsyth St
1940 at 1125 W Forsyth St
1946 and 1950 at 1067 W Forsyth St
The last location was between Stuart and Johnson St so that would have been near the Union Station. Right across the street was an ACL train yard, making that an unlikely location for the picture since there are buildings reflected in the window.
Several of the listings showed the same people as owners. The last one was a K.W. von Katz.
Going to check the Sanborn Maps online and see what I can see based on the other locations.
That listing for 633-35 @ Forsyth looks about right.
The Davis Furniture warehouse.
Look at the old photo, then a street view on Google Maps - you'll see the 4-window structure above the doors/street windows is the same.
The problem is the date... 1948. To confirm the date of the photo it might be possible to date the motorcycles parked out front...
Match this...
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp02303.jpg)
to this...
(http://harley-davidson.oldcarandtruckpictures.com/1941Harley-Davidson_WLD.jpg)
A 1940/41 Harley...
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/rfisher/RF00131.jpg)
If you look at the building on the very left, below the long dock/warehouse "Thingies", that's the building I'm thinking of.
Quote from: 904Scars on July 19, 2010, 04:48:23 PM
Upon further looking I'm not sure it is the London Bridge location... unless they have done some serious remodeling of the store front.
If you google map (street view) London Bridge it just doesn't quit look right.
I couldn't find the date of the building (London Bridge 100 E Adams St) on COJ either.
London Bridge was built in around 1926. It's one of the first buildings listed in Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage and was originally a United Cigar Store. There was some remodeling of the store front over time, though I do not know what other businesses the building housed other than London Bridge and something called Ye Olde Downtown Tavern (from an '80s picture).
Quote from: BridgeTroll on July 20, 2010, 03:06:02 PM
The problem is the date... 1948. To confirm the date of the photo it might be possible to date the motorcycles parked out front...
Yes but back then a new plate was reissued every year (no sticker) so if the plate on the courier bike reads 1948 than the picture dates 1948 unless he's riding around with an expired plate. True the bikes could be older being that it is a repair shop, they are Harleys but they don't break right away, haha!
I have a copy of a 1946 Telfair Stockton map of downtown Jax that shows a lot a small companies in the 100 block of E Adams, including a loan company, barber, laundry, shoe store, beauty shop, and a couple of restaurants.
Quote from: jbroadglide on July 20, 2010, 01:21:39 PM
1946 and 1950 at 1067 W Forsyth St
The last location was between Stuart and Johnson St so that would have been near the Union Station. Right across the street was an ACL train yard, making that an unlikely location for the picture since there are buildings reflected in the window.
Several of the listings showed the same people as owners. The last one was a K.W. von Katz.
Going to check the Sanborn Maps online and see what I can see based on the other locations
Here is an image of that area in 1960:
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/general/n032573.jpg)
Lake, enlarging your picture, I see a short row of one story buildings just to the left of the larger white structure to the far right of the picture and directly across from the West Bay Post Office. The face of the West Bay PO looks like a good match for one of the buildings in the window reflection as I speculated previously. The "other" building in the reflection may be the shadowed building directly across the street which appears to match the two story building in the reflection in character and height. Of course, from 1948 to 1960, some other buildings may be been demolished. None of this is conclusive of course, but it is reasonably consistent with my speculation.Quote from: jbroadglide on July 20, 2010, 01:21:39 PM
This proved a most interesting query. Went to the library at lunchtime
According to the city directories:
1923 Harley Davidson sales at 8 Newnan St
1927 and 1930 at 913-15 Main St
1936 at 633-35 W Forsyth St
1940 at 1125 W Forsyth St
1946 and 1950 at 1067 W Forsyth St
The last location was between Stuart and Johnson St so that would have been near the Union Station. Right across the street was an ACL train yard, making that an unlikely location for the picture since there are buildings reflected in the window.
Several of the listings showed the same people as owners. The last one was a K.W. von Katz.
Going to check the Sanborn Maps online and see what I can see based on the other locations.
JB, did you look up any data on a motorcycle courier, delivery, and/or mail service?
Well stjr, funny you should mention that. Just a half a block east from the Harley shop and right across the street from whats labeled Railway Express Agency was a building labeled Post Office Garage at 1105 Forsyth St W. The REA office was across the tracks on the south side of Forsyth St.
And I forgot to mention. In the Sanborn map dated 1949, the business at 1067-1069 Forsyth St W is labeled as Motorcycle Sales and Service..so it wasn't just a repair shop.
I did check with Adamecs and this is not their store. They said they were not the first Harley dealer in Jacksonville.
JB, the building I am referring to would have to be on West Bay Street. Maybe you could eventually check what was there opposite or nearly opposite the West Bay PO Annex building in 1948. Forsyth would be too far over to reflect the PO.
Though it's starting to look like the building no longer exist, it's still pretty cool to see all of this Jacksonville knowledge and deductive reasoning come together. As far as the courier service cart, it could have very well been the shops motorcycle, as many repair and service shops back in the day had their own mobile mechanic. That last picture posted of all the buildings near the station is quite promising, maybe with a bit more digging now that we have a possible general location we can find more photos.
Quote from: stjr on July 20, 2010, 11:28:07 PM
JB, the building I am referring to would have to be on West Bay Street. Maybe you could eventually check what was there opposite or nearly opposite the West Bay PO Annex building in 1948. Forsyth would be too far over to reflect the PO.
This is from Sanborn maps page 43A. I have highlighted the REA, The Post Office garage and the Motorcycle sales. Nothing on Bay St. Between Forsyth and Bay were tracks for FEC and ACL. Of course on the west side of Bay was Union Station.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab131/jbroadglide/1100blockWForsythSt.jpg)
Okay here is one more look at the same area but from a different angle. looking north this time.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab131/jbroadglide/1100blockWForsythStnorth.jpg)
Could the picture be in front of the PO Garage and the reflection be the REA Building?
jb = would you humor me in posting a map of the Forsyth/Jefferson corner? I've just got a strong feeling about it.
Quote from: Cliffs_Daughter on July 21, 2010, 12:00:30 PM
jb = would you humor me in posting a map of the Forsyth/Jefferson corner? I've just got a strong feeling about it.
Here ya go
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab131/jbroadglide/jeffersonxforsyth.jpg)
Thanks - is there a larger format I can get? If it's something I can get thru the portal?
I hate to give up on this picture but frankly I am at a dead end. With so little to go on this picture could be most anywhere. If anyone has any further ideas or places to check out, let me know.
I agree, it would be nearly impossible to figure out an exact spot unless another photo of the same location was found and it was marked. Very cool photo though and being the big motorcycle fan it really drew my interest! I always skim through the old Jax photos so maybe I'll find another picture to reference.
Speaking of motorcycles... August 6th "First Fridays In Five Points" we are throwing a motorcycle and car show at Wolfgang Boutique. 5pm-10pm - 1036 Park Street
And Wolfgang's owner has some really great old BMW's there already.
I looked at the reflection in the window again and think there may be one more clue we haven't noted yet. It appears that in the far right of the window reflection there is part of a row of columns on the face of the reflected building, perhaps under an outcropping classic triangular roof cap. Does anyone know a building in Jax with such classic features? I wouldn't think many buildings here fit that bill.
QuoteI wouldn't think many buildings here fit that bill.
Probably not... anymore... :'(