Metro Jacksonville

Jacksonville Commuter Rail Plans Progressing

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/463688994_wyByM-M.jpg)

JTA's recent allocation of $1 million to begin the Alternative Analysis study indicates that plans for commuter rail in the First Coast are moving forward.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jul-jacksonville-commuter-rail-plans-progressing

One step closer to not being forced to buy a car.
I hope there is some thought given to the last leg of transit after de-boarding the train. It makes all the difference in the success of Mass Transit.

The city is still way to slow in acting. At this rate, it will be at least 15 years before streetcar service is even available.

Actually this has nothing to do with the streetcar plans.  However, if people want to see streetcar construction move forward sooner, rather than later, you should get familiar with the draft of the 2030 Mobility Plan, currently under consideration.  

Assuming local politics don't get it removed from the initial five year plan (which is why people need to get active), if approved later this year, a "starter" streetcar line between DT and Riverside could possibly be operational within five years.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,8166.0.html

"Unless Jacksonville residents are willing to self finance the construction of fixed transit throughout the region, the New Starts program puts our community in the position of landing federal financial assistance for future major mass transit projects."

This is how government boondoggles are born (ie ASE).  Projects paid for with "free" federal dollars lead to huge, poorly designed and implemented projects which make sense to those in the DC beltway but would be much more efficient and useful if done locally or in Tallahassee or better yet with private funds.

Good point. Personally, I believe the best option is to do a mix of both.  Start off small locally while continuing to seek federal assistance for expansion opportunities.  This provides you with the benefit of quick initial implementation without breaking the bank.

Generally, the new starts program is a 50% federal contribnution matched with 50% local/state contribution....most likely the local area will need to come up with 25% of the total cost (which means about $175 million for the whole system) as well as identification of sufficient funding for  operations and maintenance.

Quote from: urbanlibertarian on July 02, 2010, 09:02:46 AM
"...better yet with private funds.

Yes, because private funding has financed so much mass transit across the country.

What we should continue to ask is why our federal govt soaks up so much of our Jax citizens' tax revenue that we have to turn around and beg them for funding. Im not even saying i agree with the plan....but it certainly is silly that we have to to the feds to get money that should never have left Jax. Whether we are libertarian, liberal, or conservative...can we at least agree on that much?

I don't think that the money and responsibility for the study should've been intrusted with JTA. We all know that they'll eather get it wrong by accident or sabotage the project so they can keep things the way they are now. We need outside help if any of this is even going to go just one step forward.

JTA will likely manage the study and hire a consultant team to do the majority of the work...and more than likely rail study and FTA/FRA experience will be a major factor selecting the consultant team.

Jacksonville Traction and Jacksonville Coach Company were both private.

Quote from: Abhishek on July 02, 2010, 06:29:01 AM
One step closer to not being forced to buy a car.
I hope there is some thought given to the last leg of transit after de-boarding the train. It makes all the difference in the success of Mass Transit.

Hey friends, let me help y'all with this since we are a "FULL SERVICE" site...  (Smile)

Rather then:
I hope there is some thought given to the last leg of transit after de-boarding the train.

Try this:
I hope there is some thought given to the last leg of transit after detraining.

Introduction to the industry words:
ENtrain
and
DEtrain


Enjoy,

OCKLAWAHA

How many mass transit studies has JTA been connected to?  Just give me a deadline when they are going to have something up and running.  Will it be in our lifetimes?  Where is the $100 million "local" investment in mass transit corridor acquisitions promised a decade ago by the Better Jacksonville Plan?

The only thing that matters is results.  After hearing this "promising" stuff for decades, the only "rail" we have to show is the massive failure called the Skyway.  And, our other mass transit "success", our bus system.  JTA cannot be counted on to deliver the goods.  

JTA reminds me of the recent Minerals Management Service (MMS) that was charged with both collecting royalties from offshore drilling and regulating it.  The results of that conflict of interest are not dissimilar to JTA's performance.

We need to take mass transit planning from the incompetent and/or insincere "hands" of JTA and give it to an agency dedicated to only its success.  The Charter Revision Commission missed a great chance to fix this.

JTA - "Just Talking out our A$$"

Rail is going to happen with or without JTA. The agency's greatest weakness is the fact that it is both highway builder/planner/engineering as well as Mass Transit operator/planner/engineering. Since Mass Transit and especially RAIL, have been nearly polar opposites of highways as a means for transporting goods and people efficiently  with speed and a minimum of expense, the JTA set up makes little sense

As it is almost unheard of in the transportation world the best analogy I could offer would be the following hypothetical pact between Japan and the United States before WWII:

As a method of consolidation, to streamline, trim and speed decisions, it is decided that the pilots and aircraft from the following ships:

IJN CV Akagi
IJN  CV Kaga
IJN  CV Soryu
IJN  CV Hiryu
IJN  CV Shokaku
IJN  CV Zuikaku

Will operate from the decks of the:

USS Enterprise
USS Hornet
USS Wasp
HMS Hermes
USS Lexington
USS Yorktown

How does that sound to y'all? Just think of the savings, the millions of dollars and thousands of men that might be spared by allowing Pearl Harbor to attack itself!

Welcome to JTA-THINK.

Even with the best intentions and some very talented personnel, JTA is crippled at the starting gate by a huge conflict of interest.  Mass Transit promotes infill development, walkable, compact, multilevel, livable spaces which are self and/or transit sustaining.  Highway development promotes suburban development, sprawl, massive surface parking lots and garages, FREEways, and auto sustaining infrastructure, such as gas stations, auto parts stores, etc...

I'm not even sure that JTA ever had a choice to make, they simply evolved from the Jacksonville Expressway Authority (which did a fairly good job as a pioneer) and got saddled with a mission to absorb the defunct City Coach Lines "...and make it work."  Nobody in City hall then or now speaks transit, and this single mistake has become a huge self perpetuating disaster.  Wonder why we can take the idea for a multimodal center and blow it all over 7 city blocks, and claim it as "a" station? Think TOWN CENTER, REGENCY, AVENUES, JIA...  SPRAWL to the 10Th power, HIGHWAY influences, highway's media, highway's supplies and sales people, and an office coffee table covered in fun magazines such as "Happy Asphalt Today", "Road Builder", "Gas and Oil Journal", "Classic Wrecking Ball Times".

This is how Jacksonville ends up with such ridiculous plans as a dozen Amtrak Trains, State Corridor Trains, Commuter Trains, Regional Trains, and 3 High Speed Rail Routes (Gulf Coast, Florida, and Southeast) all converging at Jacksonville Terminal, below the flood plain and on THREE STATION TRACKS AND 2 PLATFORMS as planned by ?? Wanna guess??

I didn't notice another full powered OCKLARANT boiling to the surface, but this is fixable people. Let there be a JTA that excels in Transit, and a JHA (Highway) authority that is the nations premier  urban road builder.

OCKLAWAHA

I agree with thought of separating JTA into two separate agencies.......which they need to be at the very least! JTA (just talking out our a**/very cute stjr!) may have persons on-board with the smarts and the vision but those in the seats of power control what is done,where it is done and the end game result! These are the people that are holding up some positive progress and until they are gone.........it will not happen! We appear to spend money on "studies and consulting" and not very much appears to come to fruition! If and when it does happen, its half done and nothing that anyone can use except for a select few! I offer up the Skyway as an example, next up will be BRT......especially downtown! Untill the current Administration leaves town and we round file all of JTA above the worker bee level.............will not happen!

Quote from: stjr on July 02, 2010, 08:59:04 PM
How many mass transit studies has JTA been connected to? 

Well in the case of commuter rail, that would be 1....JTA conducted an initial study to see if the idea was feasible, and if so, on what corridors....they study narrowed down to 3 corridors with end points at St. Augustine, Green Cove Springs, and Yulee.

Now JTA will begin the processof getting FTA approval for one or more corridors....the environmental studies reqauired for Federal fundiung are pretty extensive so no one should think this is something simple that "anyone can do".

Once the environmental studies are done, JTA can move onto preliminary engineering and then final design and construction.

If everything goes smoothly and $ is available, we could have commuter rail in about 5 years.

I like the corridors they have chosen, however I would include limited service on the line WEST from the get-go.


I'm also going to predict a little different future then JTA and it's consultants see:

JTA will propose new equipment, DMU technology, or push-pull trains... It will be a MISTAKE if they don't start with the RDC cars available remanufactured. (* SEE NOTE)

CSX from Orange Park to Jacksonville Terminal is going to be the star performer and should be phase 1, line 1.

Jacksonville-Belt RR/CSX lines north will serve more local then through traffic, performance will be disappointing until the system reaches the Airport Connector Road and a bus shuttle is established.

The Branchline from Gateway Mall South would be better served by Light Rail or Streetcar, swinging into the downtown grid behind the Arena. If this is done, it will be one of the better trafficked lines in the STATE.

FEC RR, to Avenues is going to sputter, when it reaches St. Augustine, it will start to perform better. One of the curses of this line is lack of visibility by the fools stuck in traffic on 95 or US1 or SR13.

SEE OCK'S CHOICE FOR YOUR COMMUTER TRAIN being remanfactured:

Click the link below then click on  "Remanfactured RDC UNIT slide show"

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.industrialrail.ca/images/slideshow_rrdcu.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.industrialrail.ca/services.php&usg=__aYqd_Ve6Uv7Cf7WjC5cFUexOt4s=&h=60&w=250&sz=7&hl=en&start=12&sig2=Og9i1vU-irZh00Hu0ZZ7AQ&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Y-qaHSFdITv4kM:&tbnh=27&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3DRDC%2Bremanufactured%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=2QcwTICVMoP6lwfL1bSuCQ




*NOTE
In the railroad world "rebuilt" means using the same engine, frame, and anything else usable, with typical new upholstry, light bulbs, cleaning the air filters, replacing all wires and hoses or other wear items...

"remanfactured" means using the frame, and body, EVERYTHING else is up dated and brand new, engine, transmission, interiors, mechanical's, heat, air, even windows and doors. The RDC's are offered this way and good for another 30 years +.

OCKLAWAHA

I believe a "non downtown centric" starter that includes a combination of lines will work best for ridership and economic development.  The ability to tap into existing dense residential areas and major destinations will be critical from day one.  For example, an "U"- Orange Park to Avenues could be something worth exploring initially because of its ability to serve parts of the core and multiple suburban destinations.  Another option could take the FEC or CSX A lines and combine them with a short segment of the North Corridor, to a location like Shands.  Again, such a route, hits suburban destinations, DT and major urban core destinations like Shands and Durkeeville.  

On the other hand, I'm not so sure LRT/streetcar will immediately pull in high ridership between DT and Gateway, via the old F&J/S-Line ROW.  Although, the ROW is there for such a service, it basically "misses" just about every major destination in the urban core.  For such a route to work, we'll be counting mostly on a bus system being reconfigured to force Northside riders onto it at its end points.  However, because it misses just about all Northside destinations, you'll still need bus lines, other mass transit modes or streetcar extensions to serve those areas.

All of this just goes to show why additional studies will be needed along all of these corridors.  To select the best initial line, there will be several things that produce their own pros and cons (and come with their own costs) that will have to be evaluated in detail.

I am not sure about current day, but at one time there was quite a bit of ROW corridors allready established! So I guess this is going to start from scratch again? It would seem to uneducated me, we are inventing the wheel one more time!

For the commuter rail, the corridors are there - pending agreements with each railroad to allow commuter trains on their freight tracks - but right of way will still be needed for stations, especially those with parking lots.

Quote from: thelakelander on July 04, 2010, 05:40:54 AM
I believe a "non downtown centric" starter that includes a combination of lines will work best for ridership and economic development.  The ability to tap into existing dense residential areas and major destinations will be critical from day one.  For example, an "U"- Orange Park to Avenues could be something worth exploring initially because of its ability to serve parts of the core and multiple suburban destinations.

That is the way the blue line works in Chicago.