5 Reasons Why The Outer Beltway May Be A Bad Investment
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/513302514_Bgpuu-M.jpg)
If you think the Skyway is a drain on resources, it's nothing compared to the continuously growing deficit a failed road can bring to the table. While local leaders and planners struggle to find an entity willing to take on the risk of constructing the First Coast Outer Beltway, South Carolina's failed Southern Connector suggests that the entire plan may have a foundation built upon sand. Will we learn from their mistakes before it's too late?
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jun-5-reasons-why-the-outer-beltway-may-be-a-bad-investment
We already have an outer beltway... it is called I-295/9a. Fill that circle in before expanding.
there are several toll roads/bridges around the country that are facing financial problems.....some believe these will be handled just like the housing market....when the project files for bankruptcy (or foreclosure), someone else swoops in and takes control of the project for a lot less....the biggest losers in the end are the original bond holders.
On one of the Envision 2035 meetings I attended, it was proposed that there would be satellite towns around the suburbs of Jacksonville. Businesses will spread there. The outer beltway will service those towns.
The big question is what kind of businesses will want to be around Jacksonville. We have a port and interstate connectivity (I10 and I95). Is the city providing incentives for businesses to locate to the greater Jacksonville area? If they are actively pursuing the growth of a manufacturing/assembly industry, then the outer beltway makes some sense. Is there enough rail connectivity in those areas?
Would a robust commuter rail system make more sense along the outer beltway than a highway? More roads spreading people and businesses further out of the city make people more dependent on cars. Does the city want that for its citizens?
lol,
Some of those points sound like me talking.
Purple route, I back the Outer Beltway.
Pink route, may it die a quick death.
Just how big do we wanna make our footprint here in Jax?? I know we're all "core whores" here, but still. This doesn't make a whole hell of a lotta sense any way you slice it. Especially when you consider how much vacant & unused property is currently inside the beltway & the fact that the Skyway is WAY underdeveloped.
Cities who don't start conserving land, driving less, getting public transit together & tightening up RIGHT NOW are gonna be the places that will lose. My fear is that Jax will be one of those cities.
An excellent comparison that further justifies why I have been against the outer beltway from the beginning.
The Outer Beltway is the exact opposite of what Jax should be focusing on. It's shameful that time is spent thinking up something so ridiculous and wasteful.
I agree on getting more density. The outer beltway goes against that notion. If you are not in the gas-station business yet, now is the time!
Quote from: Abhishek on June 29, 2010, 10:21:42 AM
I agree on getting more density. The outer beltway goes against that notion. If you are not in the gas-station business yet, now is the time!
You mean like Gate gas stations? In the road being built, I wonder if Gate Construction would be involved. Or Gate Concrete Products.
Just sayin'
Quote from: stephendare on June 29, 2010, 10:24:58 AM
Quote from: Abhishek on June 29, 2010, 10:21:42 AM
I agree on getting more density. The outer beltway goes against that notion. If you are not in the gas-station business yet, now is the time!
shhh. don't tell tufsu that. He will only launch into an explanation of why its important for the outlying counties to have growth and sprawl too!
it would be really nice if you actually listened to what people say....I will continue to state that growth in outlying counties should not be discouraged
all the time....it is possible to have dense, mixed-use developments in those outlying areas....which would be a perfect set-up for commuter rail.
I'm not a huge fan of inner beltways, let alone outer ones. I've now lived in two cities that are encircled by beltways, and both are insane to drive upon for a variety of reasons (in Atlanta, they take directional stupidity to new heights...when you are traveling west the signs say "north," for example.)
Having said that, the comparison between the proposed 1st Coast Outer Beltway and the Southern Connector is a bit flawed.
In the first place, the Southern Connector creates a beltway around nothing. No central city, no locus of importance, zip. It may not be a road to nowhere, but it's a road that encircles nowhere. (Seriously, who thought this up?)
In the next, in no way does the population of the Greenvilleâ€"Mauldinâ€"Easley metropolitan area remotely justify the need or the existence of a beltway. As of 2009, 639,617 people live there. Let that marinate for a moment. And they need a beltway highway? For what? Drag racing?
Again, I don't think that the First Coast Outer Beltway is going to promote density or smart development. But Jacksonville's MSA is much, much larger, with 1,313,228 people. More than twice the population live in "Greater Jacksonville" than "Greater Greenville." I still don't think it's justified, but I can at least see how one could make the argument for it. Especially compared to the donut hole that's driving around nowhere in South Carolina. That looks like the dumbest of all dumb ideas brought to life. Like, it couldn't get any dumber.
Everyone has hit most points on why this is a bad idea, but I just wanted to reiterate a couple.
Beltways don't relieve congestion, they allow for congestion in more areas. Should people be willing to put up $5 one way to get to work, this road will clog while every road it was meant to relieve will remain clogged.
This is a sprawl inducing handout to developers. All this does is open up more swamp land and forest for McMansions and cookie cutter homes. You can't even see Jacksonville on the Map of the proposed route. People need to see this for what it is and pull the plug.
For $5 bucks a pop, this would make a great drag strip.
I agree with your sentiments regarding land for cookie cutter homes and strip malls. My biggest issue is the number of half built subdivision and empty strip malls we already have in this town. Drive down St Augustine Rd, Atlantic Blvd, Southside Blvd, Phillips Hwy, San Jose Blvd and look at the empty strip malls. Some of them are brand new and have never had tenants.
This site had a pictoral of the development in St Johns county with empty lot after empty lot of single family home sites. Do we need more?
I agree copper. I just posted something similar on another thread. We have to fill out our already existing urban and suburban areas before we branch out. I say we start in the dead center and fill the core before even focusing on the suburban areas.
Abel Harding from the Times Union posted about this: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/401574/abel-harding/2010-06-29/outer-beltway-build-or-not-build
This will just promote more sprawl and push the Duval tax base into Clay/St. Johns counties....It should be invested in rail instead.
I think this is a good article and a good discussion. However, I think it understates some of the political realities behind the Outer Beltway's inception.
At its most fundamental level, the FCOB was created by political interests in Clay County. They realized that they were at a huge disadvantage without highway infrastructure, and they have been lobbying the DOT, MPO, TPO, etc for years to get this freeway built.
Consequently, some of these (very valid) arguments against the FCOB are going to fall on deaf ears. I think most planners and govt officials are pretty damn aware of the issues raised in this article. They know it's risky. They know it's way way too far south. They know that it's mostly a subsidy for future home construction. But that's exactly what Clay County politicians want.
I don't mean to sound so pessimistic - but this is a project that Clay REALLY wants, while Duval and St Johns are basically indifferent. Frankly, I'm not sure how to effectively raise public awareness against the project in Duval or St Johns.
Quote from: Joe on June 29, 2010, 02:05:52 PM
I think this is a good article and a good discussion. However, I think it understates some of the political realities behind the Outer Beltway's inception.
At its most fundamental level, the FCOB was created by political interests in Clay County. They realized that they were at a huge disadvantage without highway infrastructure, and they have been lobbying the DOT, MPO, TPO, etc for years to get this freeway built.
Consequently, some of these (very valid) arguments against the FCOB are going to fall on deaf ears. I think most planners and govt officials are pretty damn aware of the issues raised in this article. They know it's risky. They know it's way way too far south. They know that it's mostly a subsidy for future home construction. But that's exactly what Clay County politicians want.
I don't mean to sound so pessimistic - but this is a project that Clay REALLY wants, while Duval and St Johns are basically indifferent. Frankly, I'm not sure how to effectively raise public awareness against the project in Duval or St Johns.
Bingo.
Quote from: Joe on June 29, 2010, 02:05:52 PM
I think this is a good article and a good discussion. However, I think it understates some of the political realities behind the Outer Beltway's inception.
At its most fundamental level, the FCOB was created by political interests in Clay County. They realized that they were at a huge disadvantage without highway infrastructure, and they have been lobbying the DOT, MPO, TPO, etc for years to get this freeway built.
Consequently, some of these (very valid) arguments against the FCOB are going to fall on deaf ears. I think most planners and govt officials are pretty damn aware of the issues raised in this article. They know it's risky. They know it's way way too far south. They know that it's mostly a subsidy for future home construction. But that's exactly what Clay County politicians want.
Clay had two dandy facilities in place and through what a grand jury described as "inept" planning efforts due to undue development interest influence pretty much compromised SR 21/Blanding Blvd. and errouneously promoted Brannon/Chaffee as alleviation. It's a comedy of errors.As a student of the beltway since 1978 I realized long ago that realities and truths would emerge only upon arriving to the point we are today.
I don't mean to sound so pessimistic - but this is a project that Clay REALLY wants, while Duval and St Johns are basically indifferent. Frankly, I'm not sure how to effectively raise public awareness against the project in Duval or St Johns.
The beltway is imbedded,a story in our culture about how things are.And are not.
Today on the WJCT First Coast Connect we heard a typically glib and unchecked reference,this time from Skip Crammer,Jacksonville Community Council,Inc.,who suggested that turning to foreign private entity is preferable to "locking up tax dollars".
It's not about locking up tax dollars-the dollars are not there.Why,over the course of many decades have we managed to build facility without having to look to foreign sources?? What is different now?
I live in Greenville and have since before the Southern Connector was constructed. The Southern Connector's path never made sense and still doesn't. I have always referred to it as the Waste of Money Connector.
There is a need to shorten the route of traffic traveling north on I-26 heading toward Atlanta. However, if that had been the motivation, the 'loop' aspect of this highway would not have been used. Instead a 'straight line' path would have been used.
The TRUE motivation was to open up land for development, specifically industrial sites. Before the highway was even completed, the county invested in an industrial park with frontage on the Connector.
Essentially, the cart (road) was put before the horse (development). South Carolinians are not use to paying tolls. And what point would there be in paying a toll for a route that saves little if any time because of it's 'loop' path?
BTW, Aaroniouslives, even if the traffic on the Southern Connector had DOUBLED, it still would have lost money, so your argument that the large population of Jax invalidates the comparison does not hold water. That is especially true since the Outer Beltway TOLL is more than DOUBLE that of the Southern Connector. Also, NEITHER road is a beltway at all, but more of a 'quadrant bypass'.
The Outer Beltway is a turkey plain and simple. It is being pushed to further an agenda and line pockets.
The DIFFERENCE between the Southern Connector and the Outer Beltway from a POLITICAL standpoint is this: The Southern connector was a first-of-it's-kind model. There were very few prior projects of a similiar nature. There was no example of a similiar project having failed. The Outer Beltway now has the Southern Connector as a precedent. Needless to say, not a good one. If Clay County/Jacksonville does not learn from this disaster, they are doomed to repeat it.
QuoteThe Southern connector was a first-of-it's-kind model. There were very few prior projects of a similiar nature. There was no example of a similiar project having failed.
The Camino Columbia toll road in Texas opened a little before the Souther Connector and performed far more dismally. It missed its projections by over 90%. It has since been foreclosed on.
The outer beltway could serve a purpose, if it was in the right location. The problem is that it is too far south.
As far as forcing more development closer to town, this could be done by adding tolls to existing freeways. Now, I'm not sure what the DOT laws are for making interstate highways toll roads, but if possible, Duval County should make all I-95, I-10, and I-295 toll roads throughout the county. This would do a couple of things:
1) Seriously make people consider whether they want to live 30-45 minutes away from their office
2) Decrease traffic flow on these roads
3) Allows the roads to be fairly paid for. Instead of subsidizing the roads at heavy cost to the taxpayer, the actual users of the roads would be paying for them.
With the new open road tolling systems, where you use a transponder, or have the bill mailed to you, these tolls could be in place relatively quickly at a minimal cost. This is what Tampa is beginning to do on the Leroy Selmon Crosstown Expressway. Orlando is also installing much of this technology.
Another policy the county should think about is road widening. The county should consider not expanding any roadways outside of the I-295 beltway. This is another way to add incentives for people to live closer to town.
I won't even go into the light rail discussion.
Quote from: Joe on June 29, 2010, 02:05:52 PM
At its most fundamental level, the FCOB was created by political interests in Clay County. They realized that they were at a huge disadvantage without highway infrastructure, and they have been lobbying the DOT, MPO, TPO, etc for years to get this freeway built.
That would be the same Clay County politicos that created the Blanding Blvd. traffic disaster with their zeal for little or no zoning (anti-regulation, pro-property rights) and growth-at-any-price attitude. You couldn't pay me to live in Clay with leadership like this. A bunch of Clay County farmers and speculators smell $$$ and just want to retire rich from developing their land. No one of influence there really seems to care about quality of life.
They are living a pipe dream to think that this road will bring desirable outcomes to Clay. It will destroy any rural way of life that remains there and proliferate a dozen more Blanding Blvds. And, this panacea growth they seek has served them so poorly to date that they are canceling their July 4th fireworks this year due to lack of money.
If St. Johns Cty. gets in bed with Clay on this, they will suffer similarly. Just look at I-95 and 210 for scenes of coming attractions.
As I have said before, both of these counties have unique and worthwhile natural amenities that they should be preserving and exploiting for eco-tourism rather than urban sprawl growth that will be tomorrow's indistinguishable slums and/or under performing suburbs.
I think we may need the outer beltway in MAYBE 20 years..assuming we have the growth I have seen in Clay/Duval/St Johns over the last 20 . Before that time it would be mostly unused/not needed. I grew up in Green Cove Springs, so I can attest to the rural environment of alot of Clay County,and how that has changed alot in my time. I hope this outer beltway does not come to pass for quite some time. We do not need it at this point. As several have mentioned already, lets get infill to what we have now and take a look at that in the future....
20 years? Come on, how realistic is that? In 20 years PS 4 will be rubble.
Probably so M ! :) LOL What does PS #4 have to do with a Beltway?
Quote from: stjr on June 29, 2010, 08:23:44 PM
That would be the same Clay County politicos that created the Blanding Blvd. traffic disaster with their zeal for little or no zoning (anti-regulation, pro-property rights) and growth-at-any-price attitude.
While I share your distaste for Blanding Blvd and the Clay County built environment, I feel compelled to split hairs with this statement.
Clay/Blanding are in fact HEAVILY zoned and HEAVILY regulated. There is nothing anti-regulation about sprawl. All the crap along Blanding Blvd (or any other suburban corridor for that matter) looks the way it does because of a giant patchwork of intrusive government over-regulation that forces developers to build sprawl.
Anyway, I know that's not on topic, but I always feel compelled to fight the "sprawl = no regulation" myth whenever it shows up.
Acquire the ROW but don't build it until it is clearly needed. It will be needed someday, just not today. So own the land now with the idea it will happen 20-30 years from now.
Quote from: spuwho on June 29, 2010, 11:49:52 PM
Acquire the ROW but don't build it until it is clearly needed. It will be needed someday, just not today. So own the land now with the idea it will happen 20-30 years from now.
Good Idea
However the outer beltway is not needed and will only cost us a staggering $1.8 billion and only promote urban sprawl. What Jacksonville needs is to work on its EXISTING infrastructure. That means widening current roads, improving interchanges and CREATING COMMUTER RAIL! We have the track and the know how, it just needs to be a reality. What city just passed us in population??? San Francisco, you know what that city represents. Smart urban development and little sprawl. Just because we are the largest city, area wise, doesn't mean we need to USE IT ALL. Redevelop Springfield and Downtown and surrounding areas, and stop increasing our need for OIL, MR PEYTON, aka our lovely Oil Man. Its time for smart leadership and smart planning.
And that was the premise of my statement earlier.. We do not need it now.. maybe 20 years from now,,but not now.
Quote from: Joe on June 29, 2010, 10:24:29 PM
Clay/Blanding are in fact HEAVILY zoned and HEAVILY regulated. There is nothing anti-regulation about sprawl.
Anyway, I know that's not on topic, but I always feel compelled to fight the "sprawl = no regulation" myth whenever it shows up.
I agree, anti-regulation isn't the only cause of sprawl. There is plenty under the guise of "regulation". But, if Blanding was "regulated" to any real degree, it couldn't possibly be any worse than it is. I sure don't see any evidence of serious regulation. Based on appearances, anything has gone or goes.
I do think this lesser regulation increases the probability of sprawl. "Sprawl" implies "uncontrolled" growth. "Regulation" is the embodiment of "control". How do you stop sprawl without regulation? I am suggesting Clay doesn't have the prerequisite amount of regulation to check sprawl. I am further suggesting this condition is derived from an "anti-regulation" attitude that may not eliminate regulation, but reduces it to an inadequate and/or ineffective level.
Quote from: Joe on June 29, 2010, 10:24:29 PM
Clay/Blanding are in fact HEAVILY zoned and HEAVILY regulated. There is nothing anti-regulation about sprawl.
Anyway, I know that's not on topic, but I always feel compelled to fight the "sprawl = no regulation" myth whenever it shows up.
Joe, Blanding Blvd IS heavily zoned and regulated but that still doesn't stop the fact that it wasn't planned very well. That whole section from I-295 till about south of Kingsley Ave is a major hell hole of businesses and lots of residential. The infrastructure there is failing... This is because nothing was done to really fix this. The biggest problem is the lack of planning with the I-295/Blanding interchange.
Now for outside of OP, the rest of Clay isn't very regulated or dense. If a developer wanted to build some massive development I am sure they wont face much problems. I love Clay as it is, I do not want it any bigger. Thats why I moved there in the first place.
Part of the problem with I295/Blanding to begin with is the lack of co-operation between Duval/Clay and FDOT.
FDOT/Duval allowed the the shopping center with Star Bucks to add an entrance from Blanding. There was never an entrance there when it was a Movie Theater. You used the light.
Granted, that entrance is not the only issue there, but it highlights the fact that this wasn't Clay County's idea.
Most people seem to forget that it is Duval until you are south of Argyle Blvd and are quick to blame Clay for the mess there.
Yeah, you can always tell when you go from one county to the other, because the one with the more money typically looks better. However FDOT, Clay and Duval really need to get together and fix that mess. Just fixing that section could greatly reduce the need for the outer beltway.
Can you imagine? Years ago,when the northwest corner of Blanding/I 295 was still pasture State of Florida Growth Management persons were opposed to future devlopment of the intersection due to air pollution concerns.
It looks as if the only real use for this is so that people who live in the newly developed Middleburg and Green Cove areas can access 95 easier for when they want to head South. So really about the only time I could ever see this being moderately helpful is during bike week.
Quote from: Bewler on November 12, 2010, 04:58:53 PM
It looks as if the only real use for this is so that people who live in the newly developed Middleburg and Green Cove areas can access 95 easier for when they want to head South. So really about the only time I could ever see this being moderately helpful is during bike week.
I use Brannan Field/Chaffee now to I-10 when I want to go downtown or north of SJTC. I refuse to use 295 if I can avoid it.
I believe the Outer Beltway is needed for Clay County the most. Having lived in Clay County, I know how much of a pain it is to drive from Brannan Field Rd, then to Argyle Forest Blvd, then to Blanding Blvd and sit in gridlock traffic. No roads can be built to the West, because it simply would not be practical having to drive back to the east to get to where I want go and there is nothing but forest past Cecil Field. The beltway is honestly the best thing we can do for this area at the time being. What is so concerning is the cost of this project, and then after millions are spent, no one uses the beltway, simply because they don't want to pay a toll. Overall the beltway is needed for easier access into Jacksonville, and to people who wish to go to St Johns county easier.
why not just upgrade Branan Field? especially now that I-10 will be 6 lanes
Don't forget Collins Road is also being upgraded and extended. So you won't have to use Argyle Forest or Blanding to access I-295.
Or when Branan Field/Chaffe gets built 4 lanes with overpasses from Blanding to I-10, you won't have to use I-295 at all!
Can't you do that now?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/TRE@FWITC.jpg)
We could just build the beltway, then the next beltway, then the next beltway, then the next beltway, then the next beltway, then...
You DO know that it is impossible to build oneself out of congestion?
Or we could offer Clay residents a smart choice with a one-two-three punch of commuter rail, BRT feeders, and light rail. This wouldn't solve the gridlock but it would give Clay and Southwest Duval residents the choice of the fighting the daily grind, or reading the morning news on the way to work.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: thelakelander on November 14, 2010, 08:21:05 PM
Can't you do that now?
It works, just a few lights to deal with, but its nice to avoid I-10 and go to downtown or Arlington when I need to. Clay County needs to get off of their asses and work on the 4 lane part and stop with the damn temp lights in Oakleaf. They were always limited access, so why put up temp lights?
I think building the Outer Beltway is a GREAT idea! If we build enough roads to go around Jacksonville, then we won't have to worry about downtown development. We could even change the name of the city to ***SATURN!!!*** That would be so cool!!!! Who cares about the fact that you can't MOVE on JTB if you are anywhere near Southside or Kernan, we need more roads!! Despite being the LARGEST city in land area, we have the SMALLEST minds when it comes to what is good for this city! How about some kind of RAIL SYSTEM that gets people moving around better here? Oh no! That's far too logical...ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!
The Project was a " Good " 'Investment' in political Terms.
Stopped Mayor Delaney in his supposed upward political Trajectory......
Stopped Joe Carlucci ( JR)
And might even now, ensnarl the current Governor.
Some proposals and projects are so bad you just have to let it Happen.
Back in September, FDOT informed the North Florida TPO that the Shands Bridge replacement, originally projected to cost $334 million, with bids later anticipated to approach $420 million, had instead received a low bid of approximately $600 million.
In your typical transit project, a final price that approached 180% of your original price tag would probably be required to see some reevaluation, some questioning as to why the price so far outstripped expectations. But of course, we are talking about a highway project.
The final, accepted bid for the Shands Bridge replacement is now $596 million.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/bridge-along-first-coast-expressway-to-be-replaced
I wonder what projects in northeast Florida will be sacrificed or postponed to make up the nearly $300 million that will now go to the FCE Bridge?
EDIT after looking at the North Florida TPO Transportation Improvement Program
https://northfloridatpo.com/uploads/documents/TIP-FY-2022-23-2026-27-Adopted-June-9-2022rev.pdf
In the current Fiscal Year (July 2022-June 2023) there is $472.6 million programmed for the bridge. There's another $6.6 M in FY24 and $1.6 M in FY26 for a total of $481 million
So the $596 million bid is "only" $115 million above the budgeted amount.
Of the $481 million, $205 million comes from Turnpike funding, the remaining $276 is from Federal and State funds that could go to other projects in the region. It will be interesting to see where the overage comes from - Turnpike funds, or more general highway funds, or some combination.
^ This is typical of the "bait and switch" approaches to many of our public projects. It is indeed rare that any of them meet or get finished for less than projected at the time approvals are sought. The overshoot on this project will be a piker compared to JTA's AV when it is done, if that ever happens given the technology is nowhere close to being available.
In the private sector, companies would be out of business with overshoots of the magnitude and frequency we see in the public sector and/or heads would roll quicker than a football team fires a coach for losing one too many games.
I'm not surprised. Whatever estimate you hear these days, double them and you'll likely be much closer to the actual cost.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 08, 2022, 04:17:25 PM
EDIT after looking at the North Florida TPO Transportation Improvement Program
https://northfloridatpo.com/uploads/documents/TIP-FY-2022-23-2026-27-Adopted-June-9-2022rev.pdf
In the current Fiscal Year (July 2022-June 2023) there is $472.6 million programmed for the bridge. There's another $6.6 M in FY24 and $1.6 M in FY26 for a total of $481 million
So the $596 million bid is "only" $115 million above the budgeted amount.
Of the $481 million, $205 million comes from Turnpike funding, the remaining $276 is from Federal and State funds that could go to other projects in the region. It will be interesting to see where the overage comes from - Turnpike funds, or more general highway funds, or some combination.
Interesting, FDOT's project website for the bridge still gives the $334m number.
https://nflroads.com/ProjectDetails?p=5136
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 09, 2022, 10:58:28 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 08, 2022, 04:17:25 PM
EDIT after looking at the North Florida TPO Transportation Improvement Program
https://northfloridatpo.com/uploads/documents/TIP-FY-2022-23-2026-27-Adopted-June-9-2022rev.pdf
In the current Fiscal Year (July 2022-June 2023) there is $472.6 million programmed for the bridge. There's another $6.6 M in FY24 and $1.6 M in FY26 for a total of $481 million
So the $596 million bid is "only" $115 million above the budgeted amount.
Of the $481 million, $205 million comes from Turnpike funding, the remaining $276 is from Federal and State funds that could go to other projects in the region. It will be interesting to see where the overage comes from - Turnpike funds, or more general highway funds, or some combination.
Interesting, FDOT's project website for the bridge still gives the $334m number.
https://nflroads.com/ProjectDetails?p=5136
That is typical, the FDOT doesn't do a great job of keeping those project websites up to date.