JTA picks firm for commuter rail study
Jacksonville Business Journal - 2:41 PM EDT Thursday, September 6, 2007
A Pennsylvania planning and design company will assess the feasibility of a commuter rail system for the Jacksonville Transportation Authority.
Gannett Fleming Inc., which is based in Harrisburg, Pa., and has an office in Jacksonville, was one of seven companies to bid for the $400,000 contract.
The study, which will be coordinated with JTA, the Florida Department of Transportation and the First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization, will look at the feasibility of adding commuter rail service to the area covering Duval, Nassau, Clay, St. Johns, Baker, Flagler, Putnam and Volusia counties. The study will look at both the technology and potential corridors. The funding is from the Federal Transit Administration. The study is scheduled to be done by the end of 2008.
I wonder if JTA knows this company likes streetcars. Unfortunately, the scope of the study will be regional commuter rail. I thought there was studies done on one of those local internet things. I think it was called metroj-ville or some such. Were you guys in the running for contract. Shouda been.
http://www.gannettfleming.com/newsroom/2007/streetcar071907.htm
At least they are moving forward with the study. Once a commuter rail system is in place, extra stops can be added and a DMU type train implemented.
The problem is this would be commuter rail on a regional level running parallel to busway lines. The type of commuter rail that has stations located far a part, similar to South Florida's Tri Rail. The local system would be the planned bus rapid transit lines, replacing what should be light rail or some type of DMU service.
So this is not what we are talking about when it comes to the S-Line, right? Can you or OCK explain the difference between light rail and regional rail for those of us who are novices?
and to think that i got excited about this headline.
QuoteSo this is not what we are talking about when it comes to the S-Line, right? Can you or OCK explain the difference between light rail and regional rail for those of us who are novices?
(http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/nwk-lrt-lrv-branch-brook-park-aug2001_b-myers.jpg)
This is a good example of Light Rail in it's largest incarnation. This is a NJ River Line, type LRV or Light Rail Vehicle. This is unique in that few LRV's are diesel powered. NJ uses both diesel and electric LRV's. This particular vehicle CAN operate on freight railroad tracks (but not when freight trains are active on the line)(http://www.cabq.gov/transit/images/UNMWes.jpg)
This is a far more typical Light Rail picture. This is modern light streetcar technology, which is just a lighter version of the above and electric powered. These vehicles weigh less then some BRT buses and can be made just as fast. You could also say LRT is just an old time Trolley or Interurban car with a new dress on. Trolleys are smaller (see photo) and Interurban cars were/are larger. Either of the above types, historic, new, diesel or electric can operate in streets, medians, parkways, railroad track, old railroads etc... It is due to the light weight of the rail they ride on and the general light construction that the name LIGHT RAIL comes from. In it's truest form, the name could also apply to the Zoo railroad, as indeed it is a type of LIGHT RAILWAY. Where the words Light Rail have pretty much come to mean light weight, inexpensive construction, simple, clean transit. The photo is Albuquerque's new "modern streetcar" which is the lightest and least expensive type of light rail and really is a reincarnation of the old time trolley. (http://static.flickr.com/67/193722425_a319ffcd23_m.jpg)
This is HEAVY RAIL or COMMUTER RAIL. Again, meaning it runs on full size railroad tracks right in with the freight and Amtrak trains. It can and does operate in the same time frames as the other trains. It is massive in construction and weight to withstand impacts from any unfortunate possibilities. It is almost always higher speed (in operation - Light Rail is also capable of very high speeds). Heavy rail is the passenger-commuter equal of CSX, NS, or FEC, certainly nothing you would want running down Bay Street. It requires track with heavy rail and heavy construction at a much higher cost then light rail.
Hope this helps, please ask if it's still not clear. Ocklawaha
Lakelander, the "MetroJacksonville" system uses the existing rail lines just as the JTA's commuter rail system would? Why not implement something on a regional level first (to keep costs down) and then later on add stations and switch to a DMU type train?
Once this study is complete, which should be before any BRT lines are constructed, the JTA might actually have hard evidence of rail's superiority over rubber tires and drop the BRT proposal all together.
Jason, don't hold your breath on this one. These "studies" can be slanted to prove whatever JTA want's them to prove. Even though the consultants doing the study have done rail in the past, doesn't mean that for $400,000 dolalrs they are going to fly in the face of JTA's already hardened plans for BRT.
Also, if Florida had any Transportation sense at all, we would be doing Light Rail, Commuter Heavy Rail and Reigonal Rail all at the same time. The facts are, everything at the State level points to regional rail on the drawing boards, it just might exclude Jax, but I've a hunch that the sudden interest in CSX's high speed line application, Amtrak's statement of intent, Miami, Tampa, and Orlando, suddenly waking to "Transportation Centers," is a token of things to come. Our own Transportation Center plan is a mess, scattered all over LaVilla, there is no "CENTER" in our Center. Putting a "too small" convention center in the middle of a Transportation complex was a stroke of stupid. This thing is like building a theater and trying to wrap it with a Wal-Mart, won't work fellas. Bottom line, we are probably going to see some increase in regional rail, and Amtrak in the next administration.
Commuter rail and Light Rail are serving the same purpose, with different systems and slightly different markets. Commuter rail to St. Augustine and perhaps Baldwin-Gainesville would be large locomotive sized DMU's or Amtrak sized trains. They would run at high speed between stations and only stop every 3-5 miles.
They are great for park and ride, bus connection, BRT connections and even walk up, IF you happen to live nearby. They just do not do local neighborhood at all.
What Metro-Jacksonville is proposing is start with our highest transit ridership corridor, which is the Northside.
build a system of LRT or LRT/DMU that CAN do local, neighborhood, or streetcar like service, at low cost. With the smaller LRT/DMU and track ownership, we also have the option of taking this South to Green Cove Springs or North to the Airport or Fernandina Beach, without great added cost. No one is saying, "don't do commuter rail" along with it. In fact, the whole package should also include HOV/BRT into the Northwest side and to the Beaches, I'll even ride it from the station at Hodges and JTB myself!
Ocklawaha
Quote from: Jason on September 07, 2007, 08:43:40 AM
Lakelander, the "MetroJacksonville" system uses the existing rail lines just as the JTA's commuter rail system would? Why not implement something on a regional level first (to keep costs down) and then later on add stations and switch to a DMU type train?
You're not keeping costs down because you're still building parallel BRT lines. So it's $750 million plus the cost of parallel rail instead of chipping away at the $750 million estimate by integrating rail to eliminate the duplication. Also, at a regional level stations would most likely be set up as far as five miles apart from each other. This means neighborhoods like Durkeeville, Springfield, Murray Hill, Avondale, etc. would not be served by commuter rail. Instead the trains would blow right through them. In the event that they were served, you then have two systems running parallel to each other competing for riders. I love trains as much as the next guy, but I'm not in favor of spending tax dollars to construct duplicate mass transit or an inferior idea that creates two separate systems with poor ridership.
QuoteOnce this study is complete, which should be before any BRT lines are constructed, the JTA might actually have hard evidence of rail's superiority over rubber tires and drop the BRT proposal all together.
My hope is that a study such as this would look at possibly integrating rail with BRT. Unfortunately, studies can be flawed from the beginning as well. For example, commuter rail was eliminated early on in the BRT studies partially because existing rail lines did not serve where people live, work and play in the Northside. They came to this conclusion without even considering the S-Line, which does exactly that and is already city owned. I guess they overlooked it because its an "abandoned" rail corridor.
Layers and Connection WITHOUT duplication is key to implimentation...
Ocklawaha
My statements were based on the assumption that this system would replace BRT not duplicate it. I understand that those assumptions are pie-in-the-sky but the numbers from the study could go a long way towards strengthening our case as well as better educating the general public that are needed to fight this.
The study could also dampen efforts by looking only at the idea of commuter rail, instead of rail serving our densest most mass transit dependent areas of town. It also does not do anything to stop JTA from spending $100 million in BJP money before 2010 (on BRT ROW acquisition) or keep bus lanes off of downtown's streets. That's something JTA wants up and running in three years. This means construction on that will have to start before this rail study is even complete.
Funny that the original idea behind the JTA "Express Flyer Buses" was to pick up those quality riders in the burbs, race into town on the freeway and distribute them in stop and go traffic downtown. GOOD IDEA!
Then along came the Skyway, an idea that forever would alter the great "Express Flyers" by allowing them to race to the edge of downtown, and deposit their passengers on a clean, modern mode for over the street distribution throughout downtown. This, we were promised, would allow us to even cut the bus fleet and redeploy all of those wasted miles in stop and go downtown, to the burbs. We would even get more frequent and new services. GOOD IDEA, BADLY IMPLIMENTED!
Now comes the new, BRT plan, today, it's to hell with downtown, the Skyway, and connectivity. We will now build bus freeways right through the core, so the Phillips Highway - Gateway Plaza BRT bus can blow through the CBD at 45 MPH. DOWNRIGHT STUPID IDEA, WRONG LOCATION, DUPLICATION, WASTE!
USE BRT on Lem Turner, MLK, JTB, Arlington Expressway, Blanding
Ocklawaha