Metro Jacksonville

Via the Daily Record

http://jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=531315 (http://jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=531315)

by David Chapman
Staff Writer

The Jacksonville Transportation Authority board of directors approved the design contract for the initial phase of its Bus Rapid Transit system Thursday at its monthly board meeting.

National architecture, engineering and consulting firm HDR Inc., with a local office in Jacksonville, was awarded the contract for close to $768,000 to begin work on the Downtown phase of the overall transportation project.

The project will include intersection improvements, dedicated bus lanes, branded buses, routes with 10-minute wait intervals at peak times and 15-minute wait intervals in nonpeak times, signalization prioritization for buses, new stations and streetscape improvements, among other enhancements.

All streetscape enhancements in the Downtown area for Phase I will comply with standards set by the Downtown Development Review Board.

The Bus Rapid Transit Program is designed to make it easier for buses to avoid congestion and save time for passengers.

Slated for completion in December 2012, the Downtown phase of the Bus Rapid Transit program is the first of five parts of the project throughout the city. Similar connecting projects will follow in the North corridor near Springfield (December 2013), Southeast employment corridors (December 2014), Southwest corridor (December 2015) and East corridor (December 2016).

Initial workshops throughout the region aimed to gauge public interest have varied, said JTA planning manager Suraya Teeple, with older neighborhoods tending to be more receptive to the redevelopment.

The Downtown portion of the project will cost around $13 million, but $9.3 million would come from the Federal Transit Administration “Small Starts” grants for capital costs associated with new fixed guideway systems, extensions and bus corridor improvements.

While the contract was approved by the JTA board of officials, it must also be approved by the Federal Transit Administration.




I never paid attention to these things previously, but 

QuoteThe Downtown portion of the project will cost around $13 million, but $9.3 million would come from the Federal Transit Administration “Small Starts” grants for capital costs associated with new fixed guideway systems, extensions and bus corridor improvements.

Would this money also have been available for fixed mass transit projects?  Or was the requirements aimed specifically at BRT-type systems?

But would the Smart Starts grant money only have been available for bus transit projects, or would it also have been made available for fixed transit systems as well?

well, i hate to remind you all of this, but this all goes back to 1998!!!!!!  Small Start or New Starts is federal money made available for rail or BRT projects.

It may work out. Who knows. At least there will be some form of mass transit downtown, running every 10-15 minutes and avoiding the lights.

Quote from: stephendare on June 25, 2010, 12:17:19 PM
It will be for BRT only.

Idiots.  Cart before the horse.

Actually it is to do design for the dowtown system....the streets will be used by both BRT and regular buses....the alternative is to keep running the buses all over downtown and have the BRT run down Adams Street...is that what you want?

Quote from: fieldafm on June 25, 2010, 12:18:46 PM
But would the Smart Starts grant money only have been available for bus transit projects, or would it also have been made available for fixed transit systems as well?

the $ was granted for this specific project...which meant it had to stand on its own....and apparently did!

Let's just hope HDR adds some bike lanes to this project.

I was in Pensacola last weekend and saw that they have bus shelters with advertising on them.  I don't know what Jax is waiting for?

This is moronic.  JTA has no clue what its citizens want.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on June 25, 2010, 02:14:01 PM
This is moronic.  JTA has no clue what its citizens want.

I would contend that most of the citizens don't know what they want either

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 25, 2010, 02:40:55 PM

Quote from: Captain Zissou on June 25, 2010, 02:14:01 PM
This is moronic.  JTA has no clue what its citizens want.

I would contend that most of the citizens don't know what they want either

These are probably both true, but I don't think JTA actually gives a shit what we want anyway.

I wasnt complaining, I just didnt pay attention when BRT was being discussed the last 10 years or so.  I was curious if the grant was specifically targeted for bus transit projects, or would it have been available to fixed mass transit proposals as well.  Thank you for the answers fsu(s).

From conversations I had last night with various people I met in the Riverside/Avondale area... I think there is certainly a potential groundswell of support from my generation as to fixed mass transit in this city.  Whether or not this support rises up to be heard remains to be seen.

Commuter rail and Streetcar now then maybe some BRT.

The main difference between BRT and Bus Service is the "FIXED" part. BRT DOES run on fixed busways, or HOV lanes and is less likely to go away. Still BRT has NOT shown the economic impact of rail but it can be a very importat part of the rail commute experience.

IS YOUR OLD TRANSIT GUIDE OCK AGAINST BRT?

NOT IN YOUR LIFE! I LOVE BRT!

There is certainly NOTHING wrong with having buses that are fast, frequent, clean, and FIXED ROUTE! Some agencies are experimenting with painting lines or using color LED'S in the pavement to mark the routes and believe it or not, it seems to make some difference. Of course JTA would have to join the school of "advanced mass transit thought" for which we have about as much chance as General Seymour had of dining in Tallahassee back in 1864.

BRT downtown, especially a route that skirts the stupid downtown loops and puts the buses in line to serve the future "JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL" (Next person telling me it's the Prime Osbourne, does so at his/her own risk! Remember I'm SOCO powered!) I take issue with only two parts of this current JTA plan, 1. NO BIKE LANES (but we're giving some space to grass and fire ants). 2. DUPLICATION of the Southbank Skyway 100%, when a route via the hospitals and Gary Street might make much more sense. (and YES I know that involves TWO overpasses of the FEC RY, and your problem is? ? ? ? )  

Folks don't shoot the agency when it does something 75% correct! Let's lend a hand and guide them to the wise choices... Consider too that as FSUJAX stated these "new start" programs back in the 90's were unlikely to get funded at all if they contained a 4-letter word, R A I L .  GW and his anti-rail, pro gasoline and asphalt lobby buddies made sure of that, in fact it's a miracle that ANY rail got funded in that period of time. JTA and frankly this entire nation was sold a bill of goods with the claim "BRT- JUST LIKE RAIL ONLY CHEAPER!" It is in reality a slogan that finds me in 100% agreement, you see, they failed to look up the definition of the word CHEAP! CUTR in the University of South Florida, our "official" transportation think tank, even came out with the ludicrous statement that "BRT could have greater capacity then RAIL if it ran on 2 second headways!" Pitty the passengers getting on or off THOSE buses!  All JTA needs to make Lemonade out of this BRT "lemon" is to address their own abandonment of the Skyway, and Bicycles, the rest is all good folks.


OCKLAWAHA

At leat Ock gets it!

The fact is many cities are doing this "mixed-traffic" BRT thing because it actually is far less expensive than rail...and still much easier to get appoved for funding by FTA

So, did JTA and their grant partners consider that for the money, investing these $$ in streetcars might be a better first choice than BRT?  What made them "skip" over streetcars and do BRT first?  I guess Tufsu is going to say once again the money had to be spent on BRT.  But, why do we keep setting up such rigid funding mechanisms that lead to wasteful decisions based on spending money just because it is "free", not because it is the best use of the money?

Will BRT be another Skyway where we build it with Federal handouts and then are stuck locally keeping another underused transit system operating?  One that will give a second black eye to mass transit with local citizens?  One that mass transit advocates here will say would work if we just doubled the system again?

Streetcars is something that should be funded locally. If you get the feds involved then you have to go through the entire environmental process (NEPA) and it will drag a project out five years or more. Major investment systems like light rail, commuter rail, or BRT is the only type of transit project you want to get FTA involved with. Streetcars can be implemented at a relatively low cost, FTA typically doesnt fund streetcar projects. I believe the only streetcar funded through FTA was a portion of Portlands system.

fsujax is on the right "track"...and, as he noted earlier, BRT studies in Jax. started 10 years ago...streetcar is pretty recent....and $10 million won't buy more than about 1.5 miles.

I'm not a huge fan of BRT in general, but this plan is pretty good.

The Northbank plan is decent but the Southbank plan is questionable.  BRT will duplicate the skyway's path along that stretch and still not provide reliable service to Baptist or anything south of the FEC tracks.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 25, 2010, 06:29:21 PM
At least Ock gets it!

The fact is many cities are doing this "mixed-traffic" BRT thing because it actually is far less expensive than rail...and still much easier to get appoved for funding by FTA

BRT actually on a per passenger mile basis, pollutes more (unless its uses electric catenary) per BTU expended than auto or electric rail. Unless it runs on LNG or some biofuel. Also the roads they run on require more overall maintenance per mile due to the weight of the buses. The maintenance per mile is cheaper than rail on a per event basis, however, you have to perform more maintenance to maintain the comfortable ride.

The average useful life of a heavy/light rail can last up to 30-40 years (Chicago METRA has 50 year old bilevels), but BRT's can only last 10-15 years.

I have seen the advantages of BRT in central Bogota, Colombia and when designed well they can work well. However, I don't think Duval County has a bus oriented culture like in other countries, and so I find BRT a tough sell. Some say the buses are empty because they don't go where they want, some say they are empty because they won't want to participate in the bus culture. (ie: waiting at stop, knowing your routes). In this case, even if it provided 15 minute service to Cecil Commerce from the city, no one would use it.

IMHO, I see BRT here as a political patronage jobs engine. It uses the two methods JTA loves, buses and new roads. That means more mechanics, more road contracts, more drivers, more project managers.

I can relate to JTA's position, as long as the city seems to allow development in a shotgun fashion, buses are the most flexible way to meet the needs, but unless the BRT routes have some flexibility into something more permanent, its a boondoggle.

BRT should link the beach to downtown I would hope?

Quote from: thelakelander on June 25, 2010, 07:25:39 PM
The Northbank plan is decent but the Southbank plan is questionable.  BRT will duplicate the skyway's path along that stretch and still not provide reliable service to Baptist or anything south of the FEC tracks.

I agree with you Lake.

spuwho...while it is true that long-term rail costs may be cheaper, the start up costs are far more than this plan (which is about $2-3 million per mile)...also note that the project in question is not really BRT (at least not yet)...but more like bus transit infrastructure....it includes things like dedicated lanes, signal priority, bus shelters, passenger amenities, digital schedules w/ bus arrival information, and ticket vending machines...all of which will make the existing JTA bus system more efficient and effective.

Lake, TUFSU, FSUJAX, and Yours Truly, all seem to be on the same page on this one. Rail is hands down the favored choice of citizens everywhere and it is cheaper to maintain and longer lived then BRT, but you wouldn't want a railroad yard in your garage. In other words, each mode has it's place and BRT is the BEST CHOICE when it comes to a Bus Connection for our future Rail Systems. Recently someone told me I seem to "want it all and want it NOW!"  Fact is I know we MUST do this incrementally but one must keep in mind the future system is made up of it's sum parts, and frankly, I don't give a rats ass which links get built first... JUST DO IT!  Do it right, and do it now, and consider that whatever we are doing must soon fit into the grand scheme of regional transit. In this case BRT does exactly that. 

When I ride that Commuter Train in from WGV and step off at the Avenues, I'll look forward to having a nice, new, BRT bus waiting at the station to take me to Regency or the Beaches. If I get off in San Marco, I'm planning to use that Skyway to get to the Landing. When I'm headed for 5-Points I'll detrain at Jacksonville Terminal and hop the next streetcar. This is how it works folks, it's how it has always worked, it's time for Jacksonville and it's "Transit-Virgins" to come of age. Consider that JTA is making an improvement that lays a foundation through the most congested cross roads of Duval, DOWNTOWN JACKSONVILLE. Bravo!

NOTES:
Professor? You are 100% right on target.
Spuwho? Pleeease don't cheer Tranmileno, it's a freaking failure as a trunk line, thus Bogota is building RAIL!


OCKLAWAHA