I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Charlotte
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2048-tod5.jpg)
Despite being more spread out, sprawled, and less dense than Jacksonville, Charlotte is already reaping the benefits of constructing its first light rail line, after a successful ten years of operating a downtown streetcar service.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/564
The 'true' Bold New City of the South indeed shows the way.
I have visited Charlotte 4-5 times in the last year after no visits for the previous 2-3 years. There has absolutely been a sea change in the development patterns of the city. Every area that this line will service has seen a very substantial increase in development, and of a MUCH, MUCH denser nature that what already existed.
The Northern corridor has likewise seen explosive growth and that corridor will not even start construction for a few years yet.
A DT which just a few years ago was a ghost town after 5:00 pm is teaming with life now, and it's population is growing rapidly. It is not even open yet, and it is a textbook example of how a transit system SHOULD and COULD transform a city.
I have been to Charlotte a lot the past few years. It is impressive what they have done and are doing. Makes our city look pretty bad.
Considering we have several elements that contribute to the making of an unique urban atmopshere that Charlotte will never be able to recreate, just only goes to show whats possible here, if we can get our act together.
Are you going to find every city in America that is smaller than Jax and has rail?
Personally I don't give a crap about trains, or public transit for that matter. I'm really getting bored with this site and it's rail obsession lately.
Quote from: hightowerlover on September 04, 2007, 11:38:51 AM
Are you going to find every city in America that is smaller than Jax and has rail?
Personally I don't give a crap about trains, or public transit for that matter. I'm really getting bored with this site and it's rail obsession lately.
A good public transit system, particularly rail, leads to more of those high towers you love so much. If you look at the various 'skylines' of Atlanta, they all grew up around a transit station.
Quote from: hightowerlover on September 04, 2007, 11:38:51 AM
Are you going to find every city in America that is smaller than Jax and has rail?
Personally I don't give a crap about trains, or public transit for that matter. I'm really getting bored with this site and it's rail obsession lately.
As far as local issues go, the transit system questions are among the highest on the list. In terms of the future of downtown and the development of the city as a whole, public transit needs to be at the forefront of the discussion on which direction this city is moving towards. Having a BRT system that rips through Adams St or Bay St as a bus terminal is a big issue (of many) for DT and Jax residents that want to see the city brought together with mass transit, not split apart down the seams.
I think showing examples of how other cities are using the different modes of mass transit, and the successes and obstacles of these transits will go along way in educating the public and evaluating what the best options for Jacksonville should be for the City. I too didn't think much about public trans until I looked into it further and realized that it actually is a big (and expensive) local issue that will affect most people in Jacksonville (especially taxpayers like us).
weird, was that a jogging trail next to the last picture of Charlotte at the bottom of the article?
Yes, that image captures a jogging trail along side the trolley line in a right-of-way smaller than the S-Line's.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2047-img_44916.jpg)
Quote from: hightowerlover on September 04, 2007, 11:38:51 AM
Are you going to find every city in America that is smaller than Jax and has rail?
Personally I don't give a crap about trains, or public transit for that matter. I'm really getting bored with this site and it's rail obsession lately.
Too bad. We're on a mission to educate the public and our elected officials on the benefits of mass transit, when coordinated properly with our neighborhoods. With a billion dollar BRT plan looming, we will continue to show examples of what our peer cities and smaller ones are doing while we play with bus fumes. Quite frankly, its more important to the community than if something like the 70 story St. James Hotel goes vertical or not.
Seriously though, if all you care about is highrises, check these forums out:
www.skyscraperpage.com
www.skyscrapercity.com
lakelander you always have a way of coming off to me as a man with a superiority complex. all i'm saying is that your site it not generating the types of replies it used to. could it be the stories aren't as interesting as before?? i can respect that you all are aggresively looking to get trains into downtown for some reason.
its just not the most thrilling thing in the world to read about a bunch of towns that have a train in them. i come on here to read about whats going on in jacksonville. not charlotte and cleveland. a few comparisons are a wonderful place to draw (steal) ideas from. but it shouldn't be the bulk of the metroJACKSONVILLE website.
you've made your case that jacksonville's transportation is less than ideal. jacksonville doesnt want or need mass transit. everyone drives. no one is in the streets clamouring about how they would come downtown if there was a train. they just want a reason to go and be there. not a way to get there.
yes i know my sn is rather limiting of what you assume i am interested in. but i do actually come on here often to find out whats happening in JACKSONVILLE...and enjoy the reports, but all this train nonsense is just pie in the sky.
and no this isn't an invitation for you to dissect everything i said as being feeble and unfounded. its just an alternate perspective that you will only be able to take at face value.
Hightower,
I understand your opinion on the site, but without a rail system downtown will never be able to grow.
Imagine how many people would go to games and concerts downtown if we had a rail system from Mandarin and the beaches.
Or as in Atlanta, a railway going straight from the airport to downtown. Nobody wants to ride the buses anyway, people do it out of necessity. One day the south with their SUV's and gated communities will get the need for rail.
Good job Lake.....
These articles are not "pie in the sky". The reality is that JTA is moving forward with a more expensive and less effective plan at this very moment. They expect to have the downtown portion of BRT running within 3 years.
Also, these rail systems are more about altering development patterns and creating a desirable place to live than peeling people from their SUV's.
This topic is more relevant to Jacksonville than any story you will see on the news tonight.
Quote from: hightowerlover on September 04, 2007, 03:44:58 PM
lakelander you always have a way of coming off to me as a man with a superiority complex. all i'm saying is that your site it not generating the types of replies it used to. could it be the stories aren't as interesting as before?? i can respect that you all are aggresively looking to get trains into downtown for some reason.
its just not the most thrilling thing in the world to read about a bunch of towns that have a train in them. i come on here to read about whats going on in jacksonville. not charlotte and cleveland. a few comparisons are a wonderful place to draw (steal) ideas from. but it shouldn't be the bulk of the metroJACKSONVILLE website.
you've made your case that jacksonville's transportation is less than ideal. jacksonville doesnt want or need mass transit. everyone drives. no one is in the streets clamouring about how they would come downtown if there was a train. they just want a reason to go and be there. not a way to get there.
yes i know my sn is rather limiting of what you assume i am interested in. but i do actually come on here often to find out whats happening in JACKSONVILLE...and enjoy the reports, but all this train nonsense is just pie in the sky.
and no this isn't an invitation for you to dissect everything i said as being feeble and unfounded. its just an alternate perspective that you will only be able to take at face value.
Superiority complex? No not me. Sorry about that, Hightowerlover. I'm just someone who will push something to death if the facts are there to back it up and its beneficial to the community. You may not agree with the concept of rail in Jax, but you have to admit its better and cheaper than what's coming our way if residents don't step up and do something about it.
As for the site, these things run in cycles. Viewership is steadily on the rise, but replies are lower due to the split of MetJax into three separate forums. In due time, replies will grow, but it will be up to everyone to contribute.
Btw, do check out skyscraperpage.com and skyscrapercity.com. They are great sites and the birthplace of smaller ones like this.
Btw, rail in Jax is probably more beneficial to the neighborhoods and suburbs it would serve than what it will do for downtown. Like a new expressway in virgin land, it redistributes growth to areas of our community that already have existing infrastructure in place, creating a viable alternative to getting around town, without being a drain on the community's resources. As Lunican said, its also hundreds of millions cheaper than what's currently on the table. This means some of the money earmarked for BRT in the next 20 years could then be shifted to other areas of need regionwide.
These are very important comparisons for the future of Jacksonville mass transportation. I can't recall the local news stations or the Times Union reporting about the enormously expensive BRT plan the JTA stubbornly refuses to rethink. For me it's not even the money, it's the fact that we are one of the few cities determined NOT to consider some kind of rail.
Someone HAS to talk about it NOW before it's too late.
I have a feeling if we did get some rail of any type in our future we would see a great surge in quality development in and around downtown.
I know of at least one City Council person who feels the same way. He seemed to completely understand what Lake and the MetroJax guys are saying, and thinks its a great idea.
it seems like a forum like this (centered on city issues) should be reporting on the most current issues. at the moment, i would say a pending decision on a very expensive commuter transit system is about the most important current issue, whether the other news outlets agree or not. as for the focus on trains, it seems that the likely reason for it is it's about the only reasonable alternative to buses.
i don't think an actual trolley (on rails) would necessarily do much to help downtown and/or the city, but it's still an alternative that should be discussed. i'd definitely like to have a trolley like that, but i'm not so sure it would be successful.
i don't suppose there's anyone on here that knows anyone at the times-union influential enough to do some research on the brt issue, is there? i wonder if writing into their rants and raves would gather enough attention by itself.
If you want to draw attention to this the think outside the box. Perhaps DVI could not get involved in this issue if we agree to letting them keep their parking meter revenue? Perhaps DVI would get on the rail bandwagon if we increase parking fees? I guess we gotta grease the wheels people.
From Mass Transit Magazine and the Charlotte Observer comes this little jewel. Read it and weep Cowford, as we continue to embrace Motor City, big oil, idiots at JTA and the almighty highway. I remember back in the day, "The Who" singing "The Magic Bus"*. As tuned in and turned on as I was, I figured I had ridden on it plenty of times...somehow, today, it has taken on a whole new dimension. Which brings to mind another old "Who" song, one I dedicate to JTA and their minions... "Who Are You?"*CATS in Homestretch for Light Rail
Steve Harrison, The Charlotte Observer QuoteThe Charlotte Area Transit System has several countdown clocks in its offices, with red digital numbers ticking down the days, hours and seconds until Nov. 26 -- the scheduled opening of the light-rail line for paid service.
CATS isn't adjusting them.
Chief executive Ron Tober told the Metropolitan Transit Commission on Wednesday evening that he's still planning to open the train for a free weekend on Saturday, Nov. 24 and Sunday, Nov. 25. People will have to pay to use the train starting Monday, Nov. 26.
Tober said there are no problems that are "show-stoppers," though two areas concern him.
--The first is making sure the train control system is working. That allows trains to communicate with the line's main control center, giving drivers information on how fast to go, for instance.
--The other problem is with the self-service ticket kiosks at each station. During recent testing, the machines malfunctioned and didn't print properly.
ACS, the vendor, believes the problem is due to the string of days in August when temperatures cracked 100 degrees. It is trying to get additional airflow around the kiosk's internal computer.
The signature station uptown, the Charlotte Transportation Center/Arena, has been a source of concern because of delays in installing a steel canopy. David Leard, the line's program director, said the station is scheduled to be finished Nov. 9.
One reader recently e-mailed and asked how long will it take to travel the length of the entire line.
CATS believes it will take 25 minutes. Trains will cover the most ground on the south section of the line, when distances between stations are greatest and trains will often cross streets on bridges. Top speed: 55 mph.
When the line gets closer to uptown, trains will slow to 25 mph.
JTA? Some guys are naturally ignorant, but you people are abusing that privilege.
Only two things are said to be infinite, the universe and JTA's planning stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. People are born ignorant, not stupid, stupidity is a communicable disorder that infects the halls of Jacksonville's Transportation Authority. The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. put it best when he said, "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
Time to pull your collective Neanderthal heads out!Ocklawaha*Take a listen if you dare, but be warned, if all you ever heard was the TV version, these songs are not for virgin ears.
Just a couple of things about Charlotte, my corporate office is in Charlotte and actually the company I work for has been extremely instrumental in the development of downtown Charlotte. The majority of downtown workers still drive in to Charlotte but use trolleys to get around once parked. I know many are hopeful about the light rail alleviating some of this driving, but there is something in the mind of American's about being able to set your own schedule (even if you know you will be at work for at least 8hrs!). Also, there is a lot to do in downtown Charlotte, many excellent and diverse restaurants, clubs shopping, and residences. All of these came prior to the light rail, not after the fact. I personally believe without this corporate "sponsorship" Charlotte would not be where it is today. I am curious as to what you all think about this? Who is Jacksonville's corporate "sponsor"? It seems we have a lot of employers, but no real headquartered companies. I think with a major national/international company located in Jacksonville we would all have a better chance of getting light rail, trolley cars, and many other upgrades discussed here and on other forums.
I agree, with the idea that we have a lot of employers, but no real headquartered company, it terms of civic leadership. I spent two years in Lakeland before coming here and its amazing to see the difference between what Publix does for that city and what many local companies do for Jax.
However, this could also be because Lakeland has a plan and vision of what it wants to be and so does Charlotte. For example, these places have master plans and they've stuck with them throughout the years, even when mayoral administrations change. On the other hand, we study and study, but rarely implement and when we do, we abandon and start over after each election.
Based off our local government's past, you can't fault the local companies for not backing a government that has no real vision or sound idea of how to get there. You'd be better off setting money on fire.
Well, I have to agree with the state of the local government. But I can say Charlotte's was not much better. I think the real push behind the changes you see in Charlotte were and are the two companies headquarted there (Bank of America and Wachovia, formerly First Union). It is my understanding a lot of the vision, funding, and political power to make things happen came from these two companies (more or less depending on which one you work for). I think with this type of clout and power watching your every move you tend to get off your rear end and begin implementing, you also have a 'frined" helping you make funding at a local, national, and federal level happen. If we wait around for a politician that has vision and the ability to implement we may be waiting awhile.
We had one before Peyton took office (Delaney) but he now enjoys a cushy job as the president of UNF making 10 times the money he was as the mayor. He was the guy that got the ball rolling downtown with the Better Jacksonville Plan, a new sports district, new main library and numerous branches, the superbowl, the fist new residential highrise in decades, a plan for a new county courthouse, a surplus in the budget, etc. Everything was rolling and then Peyton spent the surplus, squandered the plans for the courthouse, took credit for the superbowl, and enlarged the government all with the supposed goal to "run the city like a buisness" that he touted before being elected. He claimed to be another Delaney and was even endorsed by his predesesor, however, nothing notable has come out of his administration other than landing Fidelity and the Mitsui OSK seaport expansion (both of wich are still barely linked to him directly).
Quote from: Jason on October 03, 2007, 10:24:25 AM
He claimed to be another Delaney and was even endorsed by his predesesor, however, nothing notable has come out of his administration other than landing Fidelity and the Mitsui OSK seaport expansion (both of wich are still barely linked to him directly).
Delaney landed Fidelity, not Peyton. Peyton did not take office for several months after the Fidelity announcement.
Quote from: Julie Anne on October 03, 2007, 09:10:32 AM
Just a couple of things about Charlotte, my corporate office is in Charlotte and actually the company I work for has been extremely instrumental in the development of downtown Charlotte. The majority of downtown workers still drive in to Charlotte but use trolleys to get around once parked. I know many are hopeful about the light rail alleviating some of this driving, but there is something in the mind of American's about being able to set your own schedule (even if you know you will be at work for at least 8hrs!). Also, there is a lot to do in downtown Charlotte, many excellent and diverse restaurants, clubs shopping, and residences. All of these came prior to the light rail, not after the fact. I personally believe without this corporate "sponsorship" Charlotte would not be where it is today. I am curious as to what you all think about this? Who is Jacksonville's corporate "sponsor"? It seems we have a lot of employers, but no real headquartered companies. I think with a major national/international company located in Jacksonville we would all have a better chance of getting light rail, trolley cars, and many other upgrades discussed here and on other forums.
I have lived within 120 miles or less of Charlotte my whole life, and have watched it grow from basically a typical small southern city into a major US city. The corporate aspect you refer to is very real, and relevant to this topic. Without question, the banks have kept a watchful eye on what happens in it's HQ city. They have been the driving force for much of what happened in "Uptown" as they call it.
If the politicians did something to embarass the city ("Gang of Five") or derail progress (Hugh McColl's famous comments on rail), they made their displeasure known. and it didn't go unnoticed.
Merely agreeing to locate the vast majority of it's employees in DT is in itself a major commitment, not to mention their involvement in coutless other DT projects to one degree or another.
Jax is definitley lacking that. Fidelity seems commited to the core, but they also seem to have no understanding that a successful DT is more than just office buildings. Most other large companies seem more than eager to go to the suburbs than the DT area.
I do have to disagree about the local political culture in Charlotte vs. Jacksonville. Pat McCrory runs circles around Peyton. For that matter the mayor of Palatka probably does too. McCrory had significant experience in government before he ran the first time, and now, as the city's longest serving mayor ever, he is a capable leader as the city is reaching a whole new level.
A convention center is a prime example. Charlotte built a new, larger center a decade ago. Jax can't even decide it if needs to have one at all, much less do the heavy lifting to build one. The DT residential base went from something comparable to JAx to over 10,000 in about 5 years. A DT Charlotte of 25,000 is likely in another 5-7 years. Mass transit- no comparision there. Airport - same story;
Charlotte does what it take to move to the next level, and Jax is content to just stay put. Jax even has the advantage of consolidation.
As much as the corporate environment has helped Charlotte get ahead, I really don't think that it the CRITICAL MISSING ELEMENT. That would be the difference in political will, effectiveness, and competence. The momentum that we had under Delaney proves that in my mind.
BTW, ask someone that was in Charlotte what DT was like 7-8 years ago. They will tell you it was DEAD, more so than DT JAx is today. There is hope for Jax, but it is going to take a leader with skills and vision to take the city there.