Metro Jacksonville

Has this been thought of or brought up before? I work in the stadium, and I think it would be so beneficial for employees here to take the SkyWay into the downtown area (such as for lunch). Think about how much this would also help on game days to move people in and out and allow them to park away from the stadium.

yes

Unfortunately this will not happen due to JTA's lack of common sense  ;)

True.  I'd never thought about that aspect before.  Most people advocate the sports district extension for getting people to the stadium on game day.  There is a whole district that would benefit from easier access to the core.  We already have the Hart Bridge viaduct obstructing the river view, so why not just run parallel tracks down bay??  That would make the Commodore Point and St James developments much more feasible.  It would also go well with the recent vision plan for the commodore point redevelopment.

True
However, the Bay Street PCT trolley busses currently serve the sports district during the week.

Besides, why leave when you have City Hall Pub and Russ Does Sandwich shop right there :)

Until we get our logistics (and hotel space  :D) together, the superbowl will never return. Extending the skyway to the sport complex is a simple fix. The original plans called for it to extend all the way to the gator bowl, and it never happen.(big mistake)

The Skyway is a failure because it doesn't go anywhere worth going.
No one in power wants to extend the Skyway to anywhere worth going because it is a failure.

Does that about cover it?

It's extremely unlikely that the Skyway will be extended to the stadium. What might happen is that the proposed streetcar system will have a successful phase 1 from Riverside to Downtown. Then they'll extend it to the stadium and arena for phase 2. But that's years away, if not decades.

Here is a snapshot of the relevant plan. Streetcars are definitely the favored transit option going forward - which I think is reasonable. Also, the map shows an extension of the Skyway by two stations down Riverside blvd. This extension is far from certain, but if the Skyway is ever extended, it will be here first.
(http://media.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8588-streetcarrreport090808_page_27.jpg)

I want to expand the skyway but it should come after some streetcar, commuter rail and if we are going to have some BRT.  It needs to be involve in a comprehensive transit plan.  Streetcar in our core neighborhoods and commuter to the sprawl.  Those will drive development in the core more than anything else which is goal number one.

Quote from: Joe on June 11, 2010, 10:58:05 AM
The Skyway is a failure because it doesn't go anywhere worth going.
No one in power wants to extend the Skyway to anywhere worth going because it is a failure.

Does that about cover it?

It's extremely unlikely that the Skyway will be extended to the stadium. What might happen is that the proposed streetcar system will have a successful phase 1 from Riverside to Downtown. Then they'll extend it to the stadium and arena for phase 2. But that's years away, if not decades.

Here is a snapshot of the relevant plan. Streetcars are definitely the favored transit option going forward - which I think is reasonable. Also, the map shows an extension of the Skyway by two stations down Riverside blvd. This extension is far from certain, but if the Skyway is ever extended, it will be here first.
(http://media.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8588-streetcarrreport090808_page_27.jpg)

When the skyway was first planned (70's), the route for the skyway was in line with some retail and departments store that were still downtown. By the time it came to fruitation, (80's), DT was dead as a door knob and everyone had abadoned camp. That's why it seems to go no where

San Marco is the first area I would expand the skyway they are building two TODs one that would include a future commuter rail stop and one that will be a mixed use center including a Publix.  Jumping the train will be problematic for streetcar and easy for the skyway.

I think San Marco and Brooklyn would have the fastest and greatest return on investment.  Down riverside Ave to Forest street may help Brooklyn Park and 200 Riverside to get off the ground.  The two TOD's in san marco would also benefit from a sales perspective from the skyway extension.

The cars are outdated and should be replaced. The manufacter has sexier models on their website. They are sleek & smooth. Jax has the box chevy version on the monorail. I think the newer cars can ride on the track Jax uses.

Extending to the Sports Complex should have been done in 96! They are 14 years behind on that,....

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 11, 2010, 01:59:29 PM
San Marco is the first area I would expand the skyway they are building two TODs one that would include a future commuter rail stop and one that will be a mixed use center including a Publix.  Jumping the train will be problematic for streetcar and easy for the skyway.

Dont forget about the San Marco floods....id like to see street car get through that lol. Keep the train in the sky. Its Florida People!

Quote from: Coolyfett on June 11, 2010, 02:55:35 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 11, 2010, 01:59:29 PM
San Marco is the first area I would expand the skyway they are building two TODs one that would include a future commuter rail stop and one that will be a mixed use center including a Publix.  Jumping the train will be problematic for streetcar and easy for the skyway.

Dont forget about the San Marco floods....id like to see street car get through that lol. Keep the train in the sky. Its Florida People!

You could never have a skyway west of Kings Ave.  The historic preservationists would be up in arms.  The only way skyway would work in San Marco is if it was integrated with a streetcar.  You'd need a Commuter Rail/Skyway/ Streetcar hub at Atlantic & skyway to streetcar transfers at Kings Ave and Prudential.  Streetcar would run down hendricks and San Marco blvd, cross at Naldo and Landon and run through the square, and have a spur running south down hendricks towards miramar.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on June 11, 2010, 03:01:44 PM

Quote from: Coolyfett on June 11, 2010, 02:55:35 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 11, 2010, 01:59:29 PM
San Marco is the first area I would expand the skyway they are building two TODs one that would include a future commuter rail stop and one that will be a mixed use center including a Publix.  Jumping the train will be problematic for streetcar and easy for the skyway.

Dont forget about the San Marco floods....id like to see street car get through that lol. Keep the train in the sky. Its Florida People!

You could never have a skyway west of Kings Ave.  The historic preservationists would be up in arms.  The only way skyway would work in San Marco is if it was integrated with a streetcar.  You'd need a Commuter Rail/Skyway/ Streetcar hub at Atlantic & skyway to streetcar transfers at Kings Ave and Prudential.  Streetcar would run down hendricks and San Marco blvd, cross at Naldo and Landon and run through the square, and have a spur running south down hendricks towards miramar.

I agree take it to the edges, use Beaver Street to get it to the Westside

Let's not get San Marco confused with riverside just keep it east of hendricks to Jackson square it will fly.

Quote from: Coolyfett on June 11, 2010, 02:55:35 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 11, 2010, 01:59:29 PM
San Marco is the first area I would expand the skyway they are building two TODs one that would include a future commuter rail stop and one that will be a mixed use center including a Publix.  Jumping the train will be problematic for streetcar and easy for the skyway.

Dont forget about the San Marco floods....id like to see street car get through that lol. Keep the train in the sky. Its Florida People!

No sweat my friend, since it doesn't rain salt water and most of the motor and electrical components are at least as high as the hood of an automobile, you just train your Trolleys to gently lift their skirts and tip-toe across.

The St. Johns is a great river, but it's no OHIO, consider the decades of floods along the Ohio, Tennessee and Monongahela... Yet streetcars may well have reached their zenith in the States of Ohio and Indiana. Louisville, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Chattanooga, and a dozen or more towns along those waterways maintained a tradition of streetcar service.

So roll back the clock to 1945, it just quit raining east of town, and the spring melt is in full force... The Ohio is raging and you MUST go to work. Grab your waders and head down stairs and try and find the sidewalk, because in Louisville, on this date, or in SAN MARCO on a later date, your car approaches.

(http://www.crh.noaa.gov/images/lmk/1945_web/frankfort_streetcar_med.jpg)

OCKLAWAHA

Living downtown I would definately use it and attend a lot more Suns games if it were there. However, despite my inflated view of myself, I doubt the city would build an extension for just me. Although, I can still hope. Ironically, during football season I used it to connect to the shuttle bus at Prime Osborne. Unfortunately, the SkyWay wasn't running after the Thursday night Colts game and I had to walk from Prime Osborne to Hemmings.  >:(

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 11, 2010, 04:24:55 PM
Let's not get San Marco confused with riverside just keep it east of hendricks to Jackson square it will fly.

Whats that suppose to mean Jeff?

RAP is very strong and strict in Riverside. San Marco while well preserved is much more flexible.

I was referencing this comment.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on June 11, 2010, 03:01:44 PM

Quote from: Coolyfett on June 11, 2010, 02:55:35 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 11, 2010, 01:59:29 PM
San Marco is the first area I would expand the skyway they are building two TODs one that would include a future commuter rail stop and one that will be a mixed use center including a Publix.  Jumping the train will be problematic for streetcar and easy for the skyway.

Dont forget about the San Marco floods....id like to see street car get through that lol. Keep the train in the sky. Its Florida People!

You could never have a skyway west of Kings Ave.  The historic preservationists would be up in arms.  The only way skyway would work in San Marco is if it was integrated with a streetcar.  You'd need a Commuter Rail/Skyway/ Streetcar hub at Atlantic & skyway to streetcar transfers at Kings Ave and Prudential.  Streetcar would run down hendricks and San Marco blvd, cross at Naldo and Landon and run through the square, and have a spur running south down hendricks towards miramar.

Where are the skyway haters? They haven't chimed in yet?

I think they wanted to give us a few pages to dream.

AHHH u guys made it to two pages with out any hate on the skyway, that's a record.

I dont hate the skyway, but I was accused in another thread of placing a historic tag on it, because I do like historic buildings???  Does the Skyway rails constitute a historic building?? :) .  LOL.  I do not see what one has to do with the other. And since the Skyway is in place now, we should enhance it, not destroy it.  Agree that San Marco and Riverside/Brooklyn are two good places to extend it. The stadium certainly makes sense as well.

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 11, 2010, 10:34:34 PM
I think they wanted to give us a few pages to dream.

Yep, dream away.  No harm in that.  They're just dreams after all.  ;D

Actually, this thread should be titled "Skyway should extend to "fill in the blank".  Let's see how long before someone says to extend it to California.  Why consider anything else?

LOL. California... Does I-10 go that far ?  I do not know because I never drove or went to California. :)  BUT IF IT DOES........


And with all due respect to the postings and to you , stjr,  there is nothing wrong with dreaming.  Some dreams do come true.   Will the Skyway be extended anywhere?  Guess time will tell.

They (the Skyway haters)  might actually help the city progress by just going away with their constant negative attacks and circular arguments:

"The Skyway doesn't go anywhere so nobody rides - Don't fix it though because nobody rides because it doesn't go anywhere..."

I'd love to see them play this game, as if they were employed by the city to MAKE IT WORK within a realistic budget and time-frame. Might be cool to see if they have a creative out-of-the-box ability.

Frankly the Skyway to the Sports District (actually called "FAIRFIELD") in my estimation would start to launch the real park and ride and multi-modal concepts in much of Jacksonville.

If this old railroad guy ever gets a crack at it I would:

Dismantle the Bay street flyover segments of the Hart Bridge approaches and bring that down to ground level with a true wide median PARKWAY east of Berkman and A.P. Randolph.

The Skyway would be extended first to the Laura and then to Newnan, finally I would push for The Shipyards area.

The Skyway on East Bay would use the bents from the previous freeway flyover bridge to support it from just east of Maxwell House to Metropolitan Park/Stadium Station.

Stadium Station would be much like an earlier concept at Randolph and the Arlington Expressway, it would include a large parking structure. The platform area's (3Rd Floor) for the Skyway would include two stub tracks with open right-of-way toward the NE / Arlington Expressway / Matthews Bridge. With a station platforms, parking garage and gates stretched longitudinal from the Southeast End Zone area to Bay Street at Metropolitan Park at the 2nd Floor, one lower then track level, it could serve as an elevated corridor from the parks/Bay to the stadium. This 2nd floor corridor would be wide enough to serve as a "sports - parks - outdoor recreation MALL". (hell it could even have hot dog carts!).


Track needs a complete realignment (I didn't say reconstruction) to reset travel directions, through services, longer trains, and end to end operation of each subdivision.  Imagine one single track (beamway) running from the Stadium to Atlantic at the FEC in San Marco.  One longer 6 car train could shunt back and forth all day long. If traffic warrants it (and it would on every event or game day) a second track would allow directional travel with trains running to the stadium, station stop, then pulling through and into a cross-over switch to the opposing line, the same procedure would take place at Atlantic Station. Once clear of the switch, the train just reverses directions on the second track. This method would allow any number of trains to work the same back and forth shuttle.

A second double track route would run from Jacksonville Terminal to Rosa Parks, with ASAP extensions to the INSIDE of the new VA Clinic on Jefferson at about 7Th, Shand's and a multi-modal Commuter Rail/BRT/Skyway/Bus mini-hub at about 13Th Street TRANSIT-WAY and Boulevard.

FEC RY at Atlantic, Stadiums, Jax Terminal, 13Th Street, With these 4 endpoints in place it would greatly enlarge capacity to reconstruct the Central Station with TWO PLATFORMS and 4 tracks. This would allow close headways to run throughout the day with bi-directional running on each subdivision.

Riverside/Brooklyn would stay on ice until a partnership deal could be worked out to get dirt moving in the redevelopment area of Brooklyn Park.  We would work to make the Skyway friendlier with destination type stations (ie: activity, dining, retail or vendor centers).  As soon as possible, the Skyway would attempt to open this line. Phase one would include the station features outlined above, plus the Riverside and Forest Street Station would be a recycled Firehouse. Phase II would be an extension from the Firehouse Station next to BCBS, down MAY STREET to ROSSELLE STREET, west over ROSSELLE to just west of CHELSEA where the line would turn south for 1/2 block and enter the rear of the ANNIE LYTLE SCHOOL.

The back of the school would be Would lay out as SCHOOL-SKYWAY-AUDITORIUM-SKYWAY-SCHOOL. Bus lanes would run cross wise, east to west behind the school station and under the Skyway platforms. A future westside LRT or STREETCAR line would have ample room for platforms on the East side of College Street, next to the old school. Both the firehouse and the Annie Lytle school would be in a league of their own, TOD-TRANSIT-STATION-THEATER-ARTS-FOOD-RETAIL+RARE HISTORIC PRESERVATION AND REUSE. Something that would make the stations, the Skyway, JTA and the CITY a must visit on every transit executives map world wide.

All new Skyway equipment would be ordered as walk-through trains, where passengers would have the option to move from car to car while en route. New trains would also be designed to handle bicycles, easy handicap access, wheelchair straps and additional seats.

The Riverside line would be designed to flow into the Jacksonville Terminal-13Th Street Station line, no trains would turn at Central Station.

Atnea-Baptist-Wolfson-Nemours-Medical Arts Building Skyway link, would be done either as a seamless flow in spur from the Atlantic/FEC RY station, to San Marco Station and hence on the short spur to reach 9,000 est workers daily. A second option might be the Jacksonville Concourse, an elevated over the highways enclosed, climate controlled, scenic paseo system.

EVERY SKYWAY STATION, PAST - PRESENT - FUTURE would undergo a complete audit (fun for Ennis, Stephendare and Bob) in order to CONNECT THEM to their surroundings, adding walks, canopies, hot dog carts or naked dancing girls! (Okay maybe not the girls... DAMN!)[/b]

OKAY BOYS AND GIRLS, GRAB THOSE KEYBOARDS AND ENHANCE MY VISION! TALK TO ME!


OCKLAWAHA

QuoteI'd love to see them play this game, as if they were employed by the city to MAKE IT WORK within a realistic budget and time-frame. Might be cool to see if they have a creative out-of-the-box ability.

Ock, key here is a "realistic budget".  As I have tried to point out repeatedly to deaf ears by some, what is realistic is spending a limited budget on the most bang for the buck.  That leads one to alternate options to the Skyway.  Why try to fix or expand the Skyway when we can spend the money on something else that does the same job (serving more passengers) far better for less money?  Those City (and JTA) employees already realize this and that's why they aren't promoting your solution - at least not based on their public statements.

Quote from: Timkin on June 11, 2010, 11:13:03 PM
I dont hate the skyway, but I was accused in another thread of placing a historic tag on it, because I do like historic buildings???  Does the Skyway rails constitute a historic building?? :) .  LOL.  I do not see what one has to do with the other. And since the Skyway is in place now, we should enhance it, not destroy it.  Agree that San Marco and Riverside/Brooklyn are two good places to extend it. The stadium certainly makes sense as well.

Yes, if you don't get lost on the I-10/I-5 interchange near downtown Los Angeles, it will take you all the way to Santa Monica beyond the I-405, within a block of the famous pier where it hooks north for a couple of blocks to merge into the PCH or PACIFIC COAST HIGHWAY at the corner of PCH and Wilshire Blvd.

Sadly, the signs are long gone and downright forgotten by most, but when the "I" Highways were new, there once was a pact with Santa Monica and Jacksonville, each city had a sign in the others town on I-10. As I recall ours read BEGAIN INTERSTATE HIGHWAY 10, JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA, "The Gateway City"  XXXX MILES. Santa Monica had a similar one on I-10 around McDuff? Just far enough out where it wouldn't be missed as it might have been between the Roosevelt Connector and I-95, it also had a cutsie slogan.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on June 12, 2010, 12:06:08 AM

QuoteI'd love to see them play this game, as if they were employed by the city to MAKE IT WORK within a realistic budget and time-frame. Might be cool to see if they have a creative out-of-the-box ability.

Ock, key here is a "realistic budget".  As I have tried to point out repeatedly to deaf ears by some, what is realistic is spending a limited budget on the most bang for the buck.  That leads one to alternate options to the Skyway.  Why try to fix or expand the Skyway when we can spend the money on something else that does the same job far better for less money?  Those City (and JTA) employees already realize this and that's why they aren't promoting your solution - at least not based on their public statements.

Not really, while I have several insiders who insist they can extend it for 12-15 million a mile, I'll stick with the $20-25 figure until they can prove to me they have that ability.

Meanwhile, to play this threads game, sweep out those cobwebs, use maybe another $200 Million and tell us what we'd get for that... You are now the president of the SKYWAY RAILROAD... Make it sing.

Quote"Once I built a railroad, made it run, made it run on time,
Once I built a railroad, made it run, buddy can  you spare a dime!"
Depression era song

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteMeanwhile, to play this threads game, sweep out those cobwebs, use maybe another $200 Million and tell us what we'd get for that... You are now the president of the SKYWAY RAILROAD... Make it sing.

Ock, are you saying I have $200 million and I can ONLY spend it on the Skyway?  Am I suppose to spend it on the Skyway just for the fun of it?  That, to me, is a false premise to work from.  If I have $200 million, I am going to build a streetcar system over investing it in the Skyway.  Do you know anyone who would do the reverse?  You?

Ock....

Given the present conditions today, what do you think are the chances of these extensions becoming reality?  I have seen the signs showing the future development of "Brooklyn Park" ..just an educated guess.... How far into the future are we talking?  Will our illustrious city Government allow Annie to stand and wait for this to come to pass?    Wish I knew someone with more money than they need to invest in this place and at least put a roof on it and brick up , for now , the lower level openings .. :(

You're not serious , Stephen.

Quote from: Timkin on June 12, 2010, 12:29:25 AM
Ock....

Given the present conditions today, what do you think are the chances of these extensions becoming reality?  I have seen the signs showing the future development of "Brooklyn Park" ..just an educated guess.... How far into the future are we talking?  Will our illustrious city Government allow Annie to stand and wait for this to come to pass?    Wish I knew someone with more money than they need to invest in this place and at least put a roof on it and brick up , for now , the lower level openings .. :(

I'm not Ock, but I'll take a guess.

1. No extension of the skyway will be happening anytime soon.  There is no money or desire.

2. Brooklyn Park died.  Its not going to be built.  Miles has abandoned this proposal.

3. If we get transit money for expansion, it will be used on projects like BRT, commuter rail and streetcars instead of the skyway.

However, what we can do now is find a way to improve and better utilize what we already have in place.

Exactly Lake, Stephen and Timkin...  The Skyway may or may not get expanded or rebuilt. It might or might not become part of a fully integrated transit system. OR, we might just tear it down, divide the spoils and send every citizen in the County the equivalent of two crumpled aluminmum cans in recycling cash.

To attempt to keep this on track in the face of such negative Nel's, the assignment is, YOU are in charge of a new department of Asset Realization. You are informed that for the Skyway project you will have $200 Million to work with. Come up with solutions that make it viable, and expand it to usefulness. Consider too that if you try and decide city policy over your assigned boundires I hear they are looking for a dog catcher in DULUTH.


OCKLAWAHA

QuoteHowever, what we can do now is find a way to improve and better utilize what we already have in place

Move to a more aggressive downtown development plan, keyed around residential presence. Increased use of Skyway will follow. Residential presence would have to be heavily encouraged, incentive, perhaps keyed towards low income. Although another option could be geared towards artists. This is done in NYC, there "artists" are categorized through tax returns, ect. to establish an official status eligible for financial exclusions. And specific housing (Artlofts, music studio space, ect). From this, expansion will be much easier to attain.  But my suggestion is a real mouthful for local leaders to consider.

Sorry to hear the Brooklyn Park development died as well..  We could have saved money wrecking everything in Brooklyn to make way for this place that will never happen now.

200 Million...  extend the Skyway to Annie Lytle and refurbish the building .. but I guess I have already said this :)

You might have suggested it Timkin, but let's play the game and give us a fairly detailed proposal, I figure even with Annie, your still going to need to spend another $100 Million someplace. So where?  A six car train is going to run somewhere in the 3-6 Million cost minus trade-in values. So tell us, where are the tracks to go? Intermediate stops? What's at the terminal? Annie?


OCKLAWAHA

I am not an expert by any means on costs of renovations or rail / transit.   If you are asking a guestimate of refurbing Annie?  My guess is : Acquisition of the Land and Building...somewhere between 1 and 2 million...maybe not in today's economy.  Overhaul of the building to make it a transit station/mixed use development: 10-12 million  Cost to extend the skyway from where it ends currently at Acosta Bridge to there?? YOU would come closer to being the expert about that Ock.

As to where else it would immediately extend to:  1: San Marco 2: The Stadium . again I have absolutely ZERO idea what the costs of this would be.  I did not think it would be 200 million to put it to Brooklyn and develop Annie Lytle.   But extending it to these three destinations , which seem resonable as all of these are in or near vibrant points.  IF there would be enough money , next I would extend it to Springfield... I presume it was built , with intent of eventually expanding.

At this point ( and I know I am a broken-record ) I apologize Stephen !.... I would love to see PS # 4 be something more than a canvas for grafittists, and a Pigeon rest , the one point M-train made that I did have to laugh in agreement with.    I do not think PS4 would make a good place for apartments , given its proximity to the interstate, so short of a medical complex or a Transit hub/mixed use development, I do not personally think the building has another viable use...or we would be using it.  

Since the Skyway DOES exist and is in reasonable condition.... lets not scrap and dismantle it...only to pay millions to rebuild the thing when we probably WILL need it in place.

This is the most intelligent answer I can give you.  My first destination preference would be Brooklyn because I do think it would be a useful tool ...coupled with the refurbishment of the School to jump-start Brooklyn Development...it is a couple of blocks from 5 points/Riverside.   It would save what is to me (and I would hope to many), one of the most significant  vacant buildings (few of which remain) in Brooklyn.

At the terminal (Annie)  I would utilize the Lower level of the School for multi-use ..cafe , coffee house,  utilize the Auditorium area as a combination of things : Dinner Theatre, Comedy Club, Perhaps show movies some nights/days and alternate, a gym, artist loft, geez the possiblities are endless.  One of the classrooms somewhere in the School and Probably the Administrative Offices would be restored to their origonal look as much as possible as a tribute/museum effect.  This may sound silly ,but since Annie actually had a Victrola in the Hallway of the entrance at one time, I think that is a must as well.   If there were adequate space in the back yard , for the younger people who love skateboarding , I would put a skateboard park in.    Laugh at me if you will.  Those are the ideas I have and this is what I think the highest and best use for the School is .   It needs to be a destination as well as a transit station that will attract all ages.

Doing all of what I am speaking of doing probably would run in excess of 200 million :)

Quote from: hillary supporter on June 12, 2010, 11:00:26 AM

QuoteHowever, what we can do now is find a way to improve and better utilize what we already have in place

Move to a more aggressive downtown development plan, keyed around residential presence. Increased use of Skyway will follow. Residential presence would have to be heavily encouraged, incentive, perhaps keyed towards low income. Although another option could be geared towards artists. This is done in NYC, there "artists" are categorized through tax returns, ect. to establish an official status eligible for financial exclusions. And specific housing (Artlofts, music studio space, ect). From this, expansion will be much easier to attain.  But my suggestion is a real mouthful for local leaders to consider.

Certainly expanded residential and retail or entertainment would enhance the Skyway's viability but keep in mind, "Development doesn't create mass transit, rather mass transit creates development..."  Virtually all of America's world leading streetcar and interurban railroads built to some empty tract, then worked with developers to fill in the dots. Ortega, Fairfax, Avondale, 5-Points, Murray Hill, Lackawanna, West Jacksonville were all "Trolley Neighborhoods," and "Trolley developments". The locations of TOD or highest transit impact can be seen today as the beautiful old businesses scattered throughout those districts, for example:

Stockton Street between Dellwood and College
Fairfax business district
Old Ortega business district

Where ever the cars slowed down, cornered or stoped to recieve or discharge passengers, apartments and businesses sprang up. Why? Because there is a direct connection to transportation speed = retail, food, business impact, the slower the road, bus, streetcar, train, then the higher the business volume.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote"Development doesn't create mass transit, rather mass transit creates development..."  Virtually all of America's world leading streetcar and interurban railroads built to some empty tract, then worked with developers to fill in the dots.

It's important to note that this still occurs today. Tampa's Channel District, Miami's Dadeland, Charlotte's South End, DC's Columbia Heights and Portland's Pearl District are all examples of districts that have densified or undergone a rebirth after fixed rail investments pierced their borders.

SO .... to that , I say DEVELOP!  do not destroy what we already have...enhance , add streetcars or whatever it takes to create development.  

I choose Brooklyn FIRST because of the areas mentioned here, Brooklyn is the most void and of the most need, for development, setting aside totally the other obvious reason I choose Brooklyn.  am I correct, based on the assumption that mass transit creates development?  or am I as usual , way off ? :)

Tim........I think I have to agree! I am not happy about continually subsidizing the $kyway, but I have been struck with an idea................why pay anything at all to ride? My idea would be to have parking at a set location, ride the $kyway to downtown location and return! It is already costing us for the Skyway,so take it one step further, provide parking at a set location.....at no cost, limit parking to 12 hours and go from there! Or continue to charge for the Skyway and put fares into a pot to expand! If it is not expanded.......it will wither and die, plain and simple! Do something............like we used to say in the guard "shit or get off the pot!" Do something even if its wrong, but do something!

I will be the first to admit I never have been on the Skyway, but if it is anything like Disney's Monorail (which I always enjoyed being on)  It cannot be that bad.  Your idea CS , somewhat represents what Disney has done (successfully) from day one.  I would not know the condition of the current cars in place, but if they are in reasonable shape , either add on to them and wear them out , or place them in the area LEAST USED...being as they are older.

I have heard the expression all of my life. (Shit or get off the pot)  I have to agree!    To do away with a working system now first off , to me would cost ALOT of money to dismantle, second  EVEN MORE money in the future when it is decided (and I think it is certain to ) that it should be reconstructed. On this basis alone, I say enhance.  Brooklyn first, San Marco second ,because neither would take great extension of to complete.  The Stadium 3rd ( which I really believe would pay off!) and other extensions as needed.

To do nothing at all with it but leave it like it is, to me is a dead end.  How is it that other cities successfully have rail systems that are successful, but Jacksonville cannot maintain or make profitable , a 30 year old transportation mode?  Someone please explain to me .   The only thing I can come up with is that it goes nowhere significant.  Any other reasons?

They can not make JTB profitable either but it sure is going to get some funding.  CS I like your ideas on the parking.

Neither JTB, Skyway or the Fire Department are going to be "profitable"... probably forever.  So success must be measured in other ways, such as employee hours saved at $ XX per hour?  Clustered schedules allow the company to qualify for car pool vans, and free parking in bulk, from the City, in such a case employees use the Mandarin, Ponte Vedra, WGV-NOCATEE garages, ride the van's to the nearest transit station and move via Skyway to their final destination (BENEFIT? No employee parks downtown, no employee deals with rush hour traffic, FREEway and Boulevard lanes freed up during shift change hours, carbon credits, GREEN, measurably less air, water and soil pollution, less fuel usage, MPG is recalculated as PASSENGER MILES-PER-GALLON or PMPG, trip time slashed, employee can use WIFI to productive use on city transit and transit stops... Etc...

Lastly transit vehicles and stations would no longer collect a fare, vendors at the Skyway interchange stations would sell day-month-week-year passes. A small dedicated TRANSIT POLICE FORCE under JSO and FDLE National Railroad Police/CSX/FEC/NS would perform roving fare checks on all transit modes and vehicles, appearing and disappearing to prevent prediction of their location or hours of operation. STIFF FINES would be imposed on anyone convicted of TRANSIT FREELOADING.

Passenger counting and card reading would be done through a TOUCH LESS OCR device, the old machines would be sold to a carnival surplus warehouse store.  

Give me the keys to the door Mr. Blaylock, and we'll turn the agency upside down.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock.... I have a question...and this is serious. 

WHY are you not heading JTA :)   You posess unparalleled knowledge of rail systems . Why will these people not listen?  Why would they not want to save money especially now.?

does JTA EVER listen to any of your suggestions ?