Metro Jacksonville

JTA's plans for I-95/JTB Interchange Shortsighted

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/892390591_vWoeS-M.jpg)

Metro Jacksonville explains why JTA's current plans for the I-95/Bulter Boulevard Interchange may be shortsighted.


Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jun-jtas-plans-for-i-95jtb-interchange-shortsighted

Good points...did anyone from MJ provide the last graphic to JTA and/or their consultants....remember that engineers (notice I didn't say planners) often are very "old school" and probably need to be shown a concept w/ examples from other places where it is used.

The graphic was recently created to share the idea with JTA and everyone else for feedback.

I like the email chain between MetroJax and JTA. It just shows the propensity to develop connectivity on the part of MetroJax and the utter lack of desire to do so on the part of JTA.
Planning in Jax (as with many other cities) is very text book based.

This is probably how the conversation went.

Q. How do we connect Bonneval to Salisbury for bicycles and pedestrians?
A. Bike lanes and sidewalks.
Q. What is bicycle infrastructure?
A. Bike Lanes
Q. Are they allowed on JTB?
A. No.
Conclusion: do not provide bike lanes on JTB between Bonneval to Salisbury

And they crib and moan (http://tinyurl.com/yjwospm (http://tinyurl.com/yjwospm)) about why Bicycling magazine voted Jacksonville one of three worst bicycling cities in USA. How's this MetroJax article for tooting 'our' own horn?

it is important to note that most responses to public comments on studies like this are "textbook"....but also note that FHWA will review the reports (and comments) prior to giving an agency approval to move on to the next step....so it is quite possible JTA will be asked to make some changes to the preliminary design concepts to accomodate bike/ped.

More money for planners?

Sorry TU... just watchin' the fort 'til CS gets here ;D

@tufsu1
I will be glad to see a bike/ped infrastructure connecting the proposed commuter rail station to the east side on I 95 on JTB. I am sure many commuters will find it beneficial, including me since I live in Riverside and work at Deerwood Park. That is a short 4 to 5 mile bike ride between Phillips Highway and Gate Parkway, where many offices are located.
By 'textbook', I meant the planning process, not the response process.

There's really no point of even putting in a commuter rail stop at this location if you're not going to provide a safe pedestrian connection from the station to Southpoint.  Since Southpoint is one of the employment centers of the city, this would be a big mistake that would, in my opinion, hinder ridership.  Employees that work at PSS or the other building east of JTB/I-95 are not going to risk their lives walking along JTB to get from the station to their office.  

Has JTA learned nothing from the Skyway?  Let's just plop a station down any-old-where with no connection to its surroundings and then wonder why the system gets no use.

Noone will use the commuter rail station who works in Southpoint if there isn't a walkway of some sort. Even if there is some type of bus shuttle from the station to the businesses- I wouldn't want to sit around waiting for a bus (that will be stuck in traffic) once I've already ridden a train- just to take me less than a 1/4 mile to my office building.

Southpoint has to be the must unpresdetrian friendly business area in Jacksonville. There are almost no sidewalks anywhere- if my co-workers and I want to walk over to the next building to grab lunch at one of the cafes we have to trek through the grass or walk in the street.

This is intended as a park and ride station. As MJ illustrates however it could be more.  There are hotels, retail, residential, office, industrial and even a large hospital within walking distance that should be as intergrated as possible.

If a commuter rail station is put there then there needs to be bus connection to the Southpoint so people can get to their jobs since they cant walk through that interchange mess.  The interchange is shortsighted.

With coordinated planning, Southpoint can become a decent multimodal district on its own.  

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Studies/Jacksonville-Southeast-Vision/0736SEFinalVisionLowResPage039/782177251_8W9d9-L.jpg)
COJ Southeast Vision Plan

However, we're going to need JTA and other public agencies to bring their "A" game.  With that said, JTA should also coordinate the drainage pond locations for this project with the design of the park and ride/commuter rail facility.  If you don't plan accordingly, you're going to end up with a isolated station, parking lot and an ugly fenced in retention pond.  If coordination and vision take place now, that site could feature a decent TOD to anchor that end of the JTB corridor.

And the easiest multimodal fix is to intergrate walking and biking when you are doing this interchange. the retrofit later will be more expensive and likely not as seemless.

With no vision capabilities, JTA should stand for the "Just Today" Authority.

Quote from: TheProfessor on June 11, 2010, 10:27:32 AM
If a commuter rail station is put there then there needs to be bus connection to the Southpoint so people can get to their jobs since they cant walk through that interchange mess.  The interchange is shortsighted.

Shit, they need to figure a way to fit a light rail line or something to connect that station to the beaches. It'd make such an impact with well placed stops at Gate, Southside, and such.

Quote from: reednavy on June 11, 2010, 02:39:03 PM
...well placed stops...

LOL.  You are funny.

I can only imagine where JTA would site them. ::)

Quote from: iluvolives on June 11, 2010, 10:12:29 AMSouthpoint has to be the must unpresdetrian friendly business area in Jacksonville. There are almost no sidewalks anywhere- if my co-workers and I want to walk over to the next building to grab lunch at one of the cafes we have to trek through the grass or walk in the street.

I know, isn't that bizarre?  Not only are there no sidewalks, but they plant hedges between the buildings to impede us.  Apparently they actually expect us to get in our cars and drive to the next parking lot so we can go to Subway.  Even the fact that there are little footpaths cut through the bushes hasn't given anyone a hint to at least lay down some pavers so we aren't walking in mud.  Sheesh.

And I really feel for the folks who do take the bus out here - on a rainy day they risk being driven into the drainage ditches and drowned trying to get to and from their jobs.

Quote from: finehoe on June 11, 2010, 02:46:59 PM

LOL.  You are funny.

I can only imagine where JTA would site them. ::)

exactly, they'd probably put it halfway between Belfort and Southside

The only hope for JTA would be to let go of the entire management staff, from the very top to those who write and change the bus schedules every 6 months. Are they all friends with the mayor or something? Anyone with half a brain can see that JTA, as it is today, is heading for sabotage. I don't think they really want public transportation to be anything reliable in Jax. If you don't have a car, then something must be wrong with you. Maybe you lost your licence, there for you're a criminal. Or maybe you can't afford insurance, there for, you're poor, which must mean that you're lazy, incompetent or trouble. Or you might be like me. I'm legally blind and must rely on the buses. But being disabled is also a crime here. We're not completely able-bodied and so then, we're disabled, we don't have a reason to show our selves, nowhere to be, no time constraints, no jobs etc. It's good old southern prejudice, only today it's about class, not so much about race, but I'm sure that's there too. They're trying to fail on purpose so they can say "we told you so!" Look at the crap they've given us so far! Replace JTA management, it's the only real salution we have left.

Engineers do love exhibits.  But this is a perfect example of a lack of creativity and a shortsightedness on the planning side.  I'm sure most of the people involved could have come up with the proposed 'blue line' multi-use trail, they just don't think people will use it so they don't want to spend money on it.  No one bikes through there now, so why add bike infrastructure?  That's the attitude, but you have to start somewhere.  Crossing 95 on a bike can be a real pain on the southside and this would be a welcome addition.  I've ridden under 95 on Baymeadows a few times and I wasn't sure I was going to make it out alive...

We spend so much money make sure big roads have sidewalks (Beach, Kernan, Baymeadows, etc) even though crossing those roads can be next to impossible on foot.  Why not take that money and effort and develop dedicated bike/pedestrian trails?

Quote from: stjr on June 11, 2010, 02:25:21 PM
With no vision capabilities, JTA should stand for the "Just Today" Authority.

cs?

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on June 11, 2010, 10:07:37 PM
Metro Jax nice study but all of this is just a Wet Dream Jacksonville Florida is still run my the Old Boys Club and this Hick Town will never get it! Never!

I love the positivity

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on June 11, 2010, 10:07:37 PM
Metro Jax nice study but all of this is just a Wet Dream Jacksonville Florida is still run my the Old Boys Club and this Hick Town will never get it! Never!

Wrong!

This is a town where the people who will never get it let downtown die.  Now it is investing in the Landing, remaking Laura street and getting historic buildings reused.

This is a town voted for a progressive better Jacksonville plan of pay more taxes for the city to provide more services and infrastructure.  Quality of life.

You will see some streetcar within five years, a downtown transit center and commuter rail within ten years.

The core areas have seen RAP and what wonderful things can happen if you have a vision and stick to it.

Looking forward to having a new urbanist for our next Mayor. OK that last part may be over the top.

I had log in issue's that prevented me from participating............but "I'mmmmm Back"! stjr's comments about "Just Today" is kinda pertinant.......I have not seen much in the way of progressive thinking or vision and am really looking forward to the next so-called vision! JTB Interchange could be alot of things including something that could connect up to downtown but that won't happen..........no vision, plan or funds! The possibilities are limited by our imagination!

Much thanks for sticking up the way I would buckethead! Until we have some kind of general plan, maybe stacked with options from A to Z, maybe we could just leave out the consultants for a change? Infact, maybe we can just bypass JTA all together and maybe have the "Boy Scouts" do the prelims? I am sure they could a better job then the "Just Today Agency"! The Scouts probably have a merit badge for "City Planning" or "Mass Transit Systems"......I have issues with an agency that can not plan ahead with something as simple as .......Bus Stops with a roof! I have seen posted on the MJ Forum in the past," why doesn't JTA Middle Management and up ride the bus?" It would be reasonable to me, to expect those who manage our Transportation System, ride the silly thing and see first hand just what is happening.................from the wait, to the ride and to the walk! Come to think of it..........the $kyway needs that kind of attention also, not just lip service! I, for one, have no faith in supposed Professionals who demonstrate repeatedly a lack of attention to the public and detail!

Quote from: CS Foltz on June 12, 2010, 09:43:27 PM
maybe we could just leave out the consultants for a change?.....I, for one, have no faith in supposed Professionals who demonstrate repeatedly a lack of attention to the public and detail!

CS...I would be more than happy to let you do all of the planning studies and analyses...good luck with the state and federal approvals!

tufsu...........I accept the challange! I could do  no worse than is currently being done ,so where do I sign up at? Pedestian or walkability,along with biking, is just one small part or slice of the "Intermodal Mass Transit System" we have been discussing. Since the JTA's plans for the I-95/JTB Interchange  appear to be shortsighted,as the thread indicates, why would we shoot ourselves in the foot? I am a firm believer in getting the most for my taxdollars and this situation is no different! I am concerned about tomorrow, as well as today!

Quote from: CS Foltz on June 13, 2010, 08:05:36 AM
tufsu...........I accept the challange! I could do  no worse than is currently being done ,so where do I sign up at?

sounds good...when JTA advertises the next step study for commute rail, I'll send it to you...then you can submit a proposal (like everyone else) that clearly states your qualifications and approach.

Fair enough! Looking forward to the chance since  any concerned citizen should be.......much thanks!!

Where is the first picture in the article located?

It's a wikipedia image of the Suncoast Parkway & Trail.

Thanks!

I guess they just don't get it.  Here is a response I just received today regarding the questions raised back in June about this project being shortsighted in regards to bicycles and pedestrians in the area.

QuoteGood Morning -- thank you for your time and consideration in providing comments as part of the public hearing for the project on SR 202 (JTB) from SR 5/US-1 (Philips Highway) to Belfort Road.  Your comments, the graphic and these responses have been recorded within the documentation of the public hearing.

The project considered the potential for a commuter rail station to be located at the park and ride lot north of the intersection of JTB on Philips Highway.  Queue jump lanes (or lane that will allow buses to bypass vehicles that are stopped at the intersection of JTB and Philips Highway) were considered to enhance the quality of traffic flow and access to the park-and-ride lot and future commuter rail station location.  

(1.) Sidewalks and bike lanes will be provided within the project area in accordance with FDOT standards which is limited to the segment west of I-95.  On Philips Highway, sidewalks and bike lanes will be constructed within the limits of the project.  On JTB, bike lanes and sidewalks will be constructed between Philips Highway and Bonneval Road.  (2.) Florida Statutes Section 316.091, (2) and (4) prohibits bicyclists and pedestrians from using the shoulder or roadway of limited access roadways (freeways) or interstate highways.  The limited-access portion of JTB begins just west of the intersection with the southbound exit ramp.  Therefore, additional bicycle and pedestrian connections to the east are not permitted.

1. New federal policy encourages pedestrian and bicycle accommodations that go above the required minimum. I guess at this point, the designers of this project have no desire to do this.  See federal policy here:

QuoteOn Monday, March 15th, US DOT Secretary Ray LaHood announced a new "complete streets" policy that would put planning for bicycling and pedestrians on equal footing with highways and transit. In his blog, Secretary LaHood states that "this is the end of favoring motorized transportation at the expense of non-motorized."

He goes on to say:

“We are integrating the needs of bicyclists in federally-funded road projects. We are discouraging transportation investments that negatively affect cyclists and pedestrians. And we are encouraging investments that go beyond the minimum requirements and provide facilities for bicyclists and pedestrians of all ages and abilities.

To set this approach in motion, we have formulated key recommendations for state DOTs and communities:

• Treat walking and bicycling as equals with other transportation modes.

• Ensure convenient access for people of all ages and abilities.

• Go beyond minimum design standards.

• Collect data on walking and biking trips.

• Set a mode share target for walking and bicycling.

• Protect sidewalks and shared-use paths the same way roadways are protected (for example, snow removal)

• Improve nonmotorized facilities during maintenance projects.

The new US DOT Policy Statement on Bicycle and Pedestrian Accommodation Regulations and Recommendations are posted on FHWA’s website.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/bikeped/policy_accom.htm

[/color]


2. No one has stated adding sidewalks or bicycle lanes on JTB or it's shoulders.  That would be a disaster.  However, as proven by the images in this article limited access facilities in Florida have been designed to also accommodate pedestrian and bicycle movement.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/892390408_f2obs-M.jpg)

As you can see, those of us who want Jacksonville to become a better place have our work cut for us.

Just another example of the rigid, uncreative, and disconnected thinking for FDOT engineers.  Just do everything by the book and don't stress yourself to think outside the box. 

FDOT and JTA should be subsidiary agencies to city planning units.  That might fix many of their issues with pedestrians, bicyclists, mass transit, neighborhood impacts, and urban sprawl creation.  Clearly, they can't figure it out for themselves.

Quote from: stjr on July 30, 2010, 12:33:50 PM
FDOT and JTA should be subsidiary agencies to city planning units.

Good luck with that....MPOs and local governments have been calling for more autonomy from state DOTs for over 30 years....but lobbying groups like AASHTO have a much stronger voice

Sun Coast, Space Coast, Treasure Coast, Gold Coast... just call it the TOURIST COAST + ORLANDO are going to get all of the people friendly amenities at the expense of what is perceived as the "Newark of the South".

If everyone in Tallahassee see's us as an endless line of containers, freight cars and ocean going ships, they have no reason to push betterment's. Containers don't use beach umbrella's or wear mouse ears so who cares?


OCKLAWAHA

so ture Ock. Our delegation who is suppose to represent us in Tallahassee continously lets jax take a back seat to the rest of that state.

Quote from: fsujax on July 30, 2010, 01:41:31 PM
so ture Ock. Our delegation who is suppose to represent us in Tallahassee continously lets jax take a back seat to the rest of that state.

Therein lies part of the proble..........consulting agencies and psuedo professional organizations, such as CUTTR, supposedly know what they are talking about! Not in all situations, since their viewpoints are somewhat biased! The public, mostly either does not know or give a darn, which leaves the balance to places like the MJ Forum which shows no mercy for stupidity, incompetance and waste!

Wasn't this attempted in some form with the Wonderwood Expressway between Girvin and Mayport?  It's been a while since I've driven it, but isn't there a dedicated path to the side for bikes/pedestrians?  Or am I remembering incorrectly?

Wonderwood between Girvin and Mayport does have a sidewalk on the northside of the bridge.

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 30, 2010, 01:26:17 PM

Quote from: stjr on July 30, 2010, 12:33:50 PM
FDOT and JTA should be subsidiary agencies to city planning units.

Good luck with that....MPOs and local governments have been calling for more autonomy from state DOTs for over 30 years....but lobbying groups like AASHTO have a much stronger voice

Tufsu, I recall posting on a thread awhile back an article about, I believe San Francisco, regarding unification of these functions under a central City planner.  It shows it can be done.  Let's start with is anyone locally asking for it?  How about one of our mayoral candidates?  This would sure be a standout position for one of them to take!

stjr....you can combine any and all local functions....but belive me, CalTrans does not report to a central city planner (or even the Mayor) of San Fran!

tufsu............then who do they report to? Current system we have here is not showing much in the way of success!

well FDOT staff reports to the Secretary of DOT...who reports to the Governor

(http://www.smate.wwu.edu/teched/geology/GeoHaz/eq-faults/eq-faults-17.JPG)
Just for fun, this is the earthquake fault visible about 1/4 mile east of my cabin! In 1992 a 7.4 earthquake made my place into an atrium with a sun roof! It didn't help the highway (Old Woman Springs Road) either.
(http://www.seismo-watch.com/EQSERVICES/NotableEQ/Jun/Landers.scec.images/lanrd1.JPG)

Remember folks, I own more land in California then in Florida, so I know something about how they do things. When Jerry Brown was governor he had a secretary of transportation named Adrianna Gianturrco. Using money that had previously gone to freeway building and repair, they constructed a statewide rail plan and immediately started funding trains.

Out of that reorganization the California DOT became CalTrans. Indeed they DO report to local officials, their vision statement has an entire section on following the will of the local communities. They also adopted a "Complete Streets" bill which simply means streets are no longer just for automobiles, rather they are for motorcycles, bikes, pedestrians etc..

Frankly what JTA is doing at this interchange would NOT happen in California.


OCKLAWAHA

Ock...statements like this come from FDOT (and probably every other state DOT) too...and they now all "have to follow" complete streets policies.

Bootom line - DOTs spend money...but in metro areas, they need approval from the MPOs on how to allocate the money...in essence, MPOs have to approve before DOTs do anything....of course, MPO boards often bend to what DOTs want because they are fearful of losing the money if they don't agree.

It would seem to me that there needs to be, not only oversight, but one director/planner/ or one vision to work off of. A standardize plan, which would accomodate all manners of mass transit! One standardized plan, adaptable for anywhere based on local demands or projected uses! As tufsu indicated "all have to follow complete street policies", so why are we any different?

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 31, 2010, 09:26:33 AM
Ock...statements like this come from FDOT (and probably every other state DOT) too...and they now all "have to follow" complete streets policies.

Bootom line - DOTs spend money...but in metro areas, they need approval from the MPOs on how to allocate the money...in essence, MPOs have to approve before DOTs do anything....of course, MPO boards often bend to what DOTs want because they are fearful of losing the money if they don't agree.

Yes I know everyone has a "statement", however did Florida have such a program in 1975? California did.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 31, 2010, 09:26:33 AM
Bootom line - DOTs spend money...but in metro areas, they need approval from the MPOs on how to allocate the money...in essence, MPOs have to approve before DOTs do anything....of course, MPO boards often bend to what DOTs want because they are fearful of losing the money if they don't agree.

MPO's are a joke and look to me to be an attempt to set up the illusion of an "independent" organization, free of special interests, control of the road building agencies, and apolitical.  In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.  They just amount to a giant, unaccountable rubber stamp controlled by the same vested interests that control all the decision making aspects outside of the MPO.  If they did their job, we wouldn't be discussing the issues we do here on MJ.  In the end, MPO's just shift accountability from politicians and city employees who work for them to a nebulous black hole where no one can be held accountable and the approval process just becomes obfuscated.

A worthwhile MPO would exclude votes from all the "usual suspects" and be limited to independent minded professionals and citizens somehow accountable to the citizens they are supposed to represent.  Maybe like a Federal Reserve Board of city planning where the long view is taken, decision making is beyond the special interests' reach, and political influence is minimized.

you do know that MPOs are generally comprised mainly of elected officialks, right?  As such, they are guaranteed not to be apolitical

Like Jacksonville? JTA is about apolitical as you can get right? They have no agenda..............other than stacking the deck to stay in power and control, but use our money to run their operations!

JTA is not an MPO....like a DOT, they can and do spend money to construct projects

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 31, 2010, 09:09:39 PM
JTA is not an MPO....like a DOT, they can and do spend money to construct projects

TRUE!

More like a loose cannon!


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on July 31, 2010, 10:38:41 AM

MPO's are a joke and look to me to be an attempt to set up the illusion of an "independent" organization, free of special interests, control of the road building agencies, and apolitical.  

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 31, 2010, 08:36:26 PM
you do know that MPOs are generally comprised mainly of elected officialks, right?  As such, they are guaranteed not to be apolitical

Tufsu, you are just confirming exactly my point.  I said MPO's were all about creating an illusion of being apolitical.  In other words, trying to make it appear that transportation projects are decided on a non-political, objective basis.  Nothing could be further from the truth based, in large part, on the central role in the MPO of elected officials who only politicize every decision they touch.  Thus, the illusion.  That's why when you cite endorsements of decisions by the MPO it means nothing.  Nada.  Worthless. Just done to deflect responsibility, dilute accountability, obfuscate the politics of the process, and confuse the public.

stjr........I would add one further comment! JTA is more concerned about themselves, their budget (which happens to be our money) and they have their own agenda which does not include the public they are supposed to be in business for. They appear to be incompetent, but that is just a smoke screen, while they offer up bids in a non competitive manner which just enriches that GOB Network! JTA is not in business like a normal business, they do not grow to become more competitive, they grow because they are the only game in town....period! They do nothing to increase efficiency, their primary mode of transportation is a polluting piece of crud and they do nothing to become more efficient or cost effective and lower ridership cost per mile! The new BRT system is being built with Federal money ($12 Million Dollars of our money) it copies the $kyway for the most part and its going to get new shelters in spiffy colors! All I have to say is........like wow! This is straight from our mass transit provider!This is the best we can get?

Quote from: CS Foltz on August 01, 2010, 05:18:08 PM
while they offer up bids in a non competitive manner which just enriches that GOB Network!

from what I can tell, JTA competitively bids out their consultant and contract services....now competitive doesn't always mean lowest bid...state law requires that professional services be bid based on qualifications, not price.

do you know of something that says otherwise?

tufsu.......I concur regarding "consultant and contract services"! I am refering to the Material aspect which is supposed to be on a bid process! Since you have peaked my interest............I am going to look into it further and will post here when I have something hardcore!

I am so confused.
clear this up for me please, someone in the know.. .make sense of this for me please.

once this is built...

IF you live or work on the NE area of this clusterf---, and need to get to the new proposed train station, which route do you take?

OR IF you need to get to the hospital from the train, how do you get there?

Call a taxi.

lol
more evidence of collusion to my ears

Quote from: ricker on December 22, 2010, 07:17:00 AM
I am so confused.
clear this up for me please, someone in the know.. .make sense of this for me please.

once this is built...

IF you live or work on the NE area of this clusterf---, and need to get to the new proposed train station, which route do you take?

OR IF you need to get to the hospital from the train, how do you get there?

JTA has a plan.

They will build a 500' high tower next to the rail station complete with elevator and scenic overlook on top. Those needing to go beyond the FREEway interchange will be issued hang gliders!

...at least until they start regularly scheduled Zeppelin service over the hill.

OCKLAWAHA

MORE OF THESE PHOTOS PLEASE!
wow you are a goldmine!

that's alll we need yeah hang gliders to the hospital I absolutely love it!

Thanks, you'd be amazed how many people complain about my posting photos. Some have demanded I stop and at least one said he was never reading my posts again. Oh well, I've got about 100,000 of the darn things, in fact I am thinking about willing them to the JHS. A few have questioned if I got most of the old railroad pix from the State Archives? Yes, a bunch, but guess how many of those photos the archives got from me in a photo swap? hee hee

When I looked at the crowd that was protesting, I honestly could almost split them along fiscal-political-racial lines... The far right hated the pictures, and our far left pinko-Commie friends love them...

OCKLAWAHA

I love the pics! Thanks for posting them!

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 25, 2010, 09:34:29 PM
Thanks, you'd be amazed how many people complain about my posting photos. Some have demanded I stop and at least one said he was never reading my posts again. Oh well, I've got about 100,000 of the darn things, in fact I am thinking about willing them to the JHS. A few have questioned if I got most of the old railroad pix from the State Archives? Yes, a bunch, but guess how many of those photos the archives got from me in a photo swap? hee hee

When I looked at the crowd that was protesting, I honestly could almost split them along fiscal-political-racial lines... The far right hated the pictures, and our far left pinko-Commie friends love them...

OCKLAWAHA

I love your photos! We seem to have picked up a MetroJacksonville peanut gallery, just ignore it. Lol