To appease the insatiable Mr. Dare, I am carrying this conversation over to a new thread:Quote from: stjr on June 09, 2010, 10:46:35 PM
Quote from: AaroniusLives on June 09, 2010, 11:29:21 AM
APTA's most recent report pegs the ridership at 1,200 daily boardings. That's pathetic.
Aaronius, thanks for pointing out the just released first quarter, 2010, numbers. DOWN to 1,200 passengers per weekday from 1,700 last quarter, a 29% decrease. This is also a 7% decrease over last year's first quarter.
Let's redo some math:
$14 million/600 daily round trip riders = $23,333 per rider SUBSIDY by taxpayers per year. That is a truly amazing subsidy number and way beyond what anyone should find acceptable, even by mass transit standards.
Here is another amazing number, the subsidy per Skyway trip:
106,500 trips in first quarter, 2010, times 4 quarters/year = 426,000 trips per year.
$14 million/426,000 trips/year = $32.86 per trip SUBSIDY by taxpayers!
Do you think this is why JTA isn't in a hurry to post the latest financials?
Here are the numbers from the 2009 State of Downtown report.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Urban-Issues/State-of-Downtown-2009/2009-SOD-finalPage19/894587760_4rfuH-X2.jpg)
I know you don't agree but as long as the system is starved, not well integrated with other transit modes and unrealiable, subsidies will grow higher and ridership and revenue will continue to fall. Under these circumstances, the same would happen to any mode of transportation (roads, commuter rail, streetcars, buses, sidewalks, etc.).
Quote
$14 million/600 daily round trip riders = $23,333 per rider SUBSIDY by taxpayers per year. That is a truly amazing subsidy number and way beyond what anyone should find acceptable, even by mass transit standards.
This is assuming the same exact 600 people are the only ones using the skyway, which is obviously untrue. There is no way to track unique vs repeat riders, but your statement is false.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 10, 2010, 05:59:52 AM
Here are the numbers from the 2009 State of Downtown report.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Urban-Issues/State-of-Downtown-2009/2009-SOD-finalPage19/894587760_4rfuH-X2.jpg)
I know you don't agree but as long as the system is starved, not well integrated with other transit modes and unrealiable, subsidies will grow higher and ridership and revenue will continue to fall. Under these circumstances, the same would happen to any mode of transportation (roads, commuter rail, streetcars, buses, sidewalks, etc.).
Who does not agree? You never quoted what u r replying to. How do they fix the issue?
Well, it would go without saying that the "turnstiles and counters" need to be operational at the very least to accurately count the actual numbers to start with! If, and this is a big if, downtown were to come to life, both residential and business wise, those numbers can not help but go up! A real convention center, at say Ship Yards, along with the peripherals and infrastructure needed, could and this a very big could, regenerate and bring downtown to life once again. Any transit system, either in use or proposed, has to have "Riders" and they have to have destinations in the inner core! Right now, there are some projects on life support, but without people, either working or commuting or living there...........whatever is enhanced will be wasted money and resources! DVI maybe the answer, which I doubt and have questions about, but there is more to it than just having transportation available such as the $kyway!
Quote from: Coolyfett on June 10, 2010, 02:03:09 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 10, 2010, 05:59:52 AM
I know you don't agree but as long as the system is starved, not well integrated with other transit modes and unreliable, subsidies will grow higher and ridership and revenue will continue to fall. Under these circumstances, the same would happen to any mode of transportation (roads, commuter rail, streetcars, buses, sidewalks, etc.).
Who does not agree? You never quoted what u r replying to. How do they fix the issue?
My response was to Stjr's initial post. The only way to fix these issues is to address them. In many cases that may mean spending a little extra money in or changing your strategy in certain areas of need.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 10, 2010, 05:59:52 AM
...as long as the system is starved, not well integrated with other transit modes and unrealiable, subsidies will grow higher and ridership and revenue will continue to fall. Under these circumstances, the same would happen to any mode of transportation (roads, commuter rail, streetcars, buses, sidewalks, etc.).
Lake, the chart you posted appears to undermine your statement. The Skyway carried 478,000 (or 2.85 times) more passengers than the trolleys in 2005. After a steady trend of declining Skyway riders and rising trolley riders since then, the Skyway now carries only 80,000 (or 1.2 times) more passengers than the trolleys.
The trolleys, which don't seem to be any better integrated with other transit modes than the Skyway, are managing to increase their traffic while the Skyway doesn't. Any explanation for this?
Also, how about a comparison of the trolley losses per trip versus the Skyway? If they are far less, why not run the increasingly better accepted and cheaper to operate trolley in lieu of the declining accepted and higher cost Skyway?
Quote from: stjr on June 11, 2010, 11:47:15 PM
Lake, the chart you posted appears to undermine your statement. The Skyway carried 478,000 (or 2.85 times) more passengers than the trolleys in 2005. After a steady trend of declining Skyway riders and rising trolley riders since then, the Skyway now carries only 80,000 (or 1.2 times) more passengers than the trolleys.
The trolleys, which don't seem to be any better integrated with other transit modes than the Skyway, are managing to increase their traffic while the Skyway doesn't. Any explanation for this?
Why yes. Since 2005:
1. The skyway's fare has been raised from $0.35 to $0.50 cents.
2. The skyway's service has been interrupted due to a fire at Riverplace Station and the construction of a canopy near the San Marco Place tower.
3. The skyway's frequencies and service have been reduced. For example, it used to operate 7 days a week. Now its down to five.
4. Downtown has continued to decline since 2005. Today, DT has less workers since companies like Wachovia have moved thousands of people out to the Southside.
Now lets look at what happened to the PCT during the same period.
1. Most of the PCT's are free.
2. The entire PCT network was reconfigured to better connect DT riders with other locations. For example, the skyway goes from no where to no where. On the other hand, the PCT will take a DT worker to Winn-Dixie and the Sports District.
3. The Riverside Trolley, which connects Five Points and Riverside Avenue's thousands of workers to DT did not exist in 2005.
I would say my post backs up my statement. One system has been starved and ridership has decreased as a result. Another has been invested in by reconfiguring and expanding the service to places outside of DT and ridership has increased as a result.
QuoteAlso, how about a comparison of the trolley losses per trip versus the Skyway? If they are far less, why not run the increasingly better accepted and cheaper to operate trolley in lieu of the declining accepted and higher cost Skyway? [/b]
Because the PCT is not a better service and it does not have the ability to spur economic growth. Instead of continuing to do starve the system, making losses greater than what they have to be, why not properly run and better integrate it with the rest of the transit network? Why not aggressively take the same strategy with both systems to protect these financial investments?
I didn't even think about what they did to the skyway on the weekends! That sounds like the Sunset Limited and the Cardinal not operating every day of the week!
stjr is going hard on the Skyway. Destroyin' 'em. When will that DC/New York/Chicago/San Fran style system come to Jacksonville? There will be no need to argue on whether the Skyway is a waste of subsidy money if there were a new system in place.
In the event that new lines were built to compliment the Skyway, parallel lines would, probably, be built, and the Skyway lines would be torn down. The city wouldn't want to remember the mistake that it made!
(I was downtown, and the skyway, if not torn down, really looks like it can be converted to light rail.)
With the recession going on, the Skyway closing on the weekends is not surprising. Caltrain has to shut down their weekend services in the San Fran area because of low ridership. That is in a major commuter market. It's going on all over. The LIRR is trying to find out how they can streamline services to the non electrified corridors. The Skyway is an easy mark for the JTA to cut costs!
Sounds to me from reading another post about a bus ride out to the Equestrian Center, that some bus routes could be ...not necessarily stopped ,but rerouted to cut some costs. Maybe I do not have enough facts to support my statement, but at the same time $23,333.00 per rider subsidy sounds unbelievable. This is no different than making any other business work..... you have to create something that people will use, in areas where they will need it....and imo to do away with the system (Skyway) would cost quite a bit as well. Tailor this thing to where it delivers the most bang for the buck , and .50/ a ride does not seem to me , outrageous. Get a cab to take you the same distance. I doubt one can for the same price. I may be completely off base and if I am, sorry.. this seems like a no-brainer.
I would not touch (demolish or expand) the skyway until I have a regional system to connect with and feed it with riders (kind of like what was originally proposed when it was built). It would be pretty foolish and shortsighted to, imo. I also would love to see JTA eliminate the insane bus loops through downtown. I would not be surprised if such a move would not only improve overall service but also save them a ton of money in the process.
- Agreed that the Skyway is being starved by Bus/Road centric mgmt. @ JTA.
- The downtown has declined tremendously in the last 10 years due to mergers, moves and acquisitions.
- Skyway no longer reaches it target audience (if it ever did, it definitely doesn't now)
- JTA has exhausted their bonding capability, therefore the Skyway "problem" will get bigger as it drains cash flow from operations. (Hence the tax increase request)
- The vicious circle grows where JTA conserves cash, cuts or stops maintaining the Skyway even more, causing more bad or less service, which scares more people off of it.
To be honest, the new panamax ships at the new ports better begin injecting some investment back into the city in the next 4-5 years, or this city is going to start having some serious issues. You can see that the disinvestment in Jacksonville has been growing, especially in the city.
Poor leadership and ethics in the top elected offices has been over the top recently.
Time to get a new set of priorities going.
spuwho...........it is past "Time to get a new set of priorities going"! IMHO, this has been the main criteria or the root of most of the issues to today! Leadership must start from the top and filter down to the troops and this has not been happening! Supposedly the administration has identified $35 Million Dollars in cuts and I have not seen anything regarding that subject.............it will be interesting to see just what has been identified since there were not any last budget cycle! I know of an increase in "Garbage Fee's", I know "Library hours/workers" have been reduced (no more Saturday & Sunday hrs except for downtown.....middle of the week would allow users weekends, some people do work!) Our illustrious mayor has been discussing a "Revenue Neutral" tax increase on property but to this point, other than his suggestion all workers take a 3% paycut, he never mentioned middle management and up including himself! I see no prioritizing from City Hall, just the normal shotgun approach to every issue.............taxpayers deserve better!
Quote from: CS Foltz on June 13, 2010, 07:41:24 AM
Supposedly the administration has identified $35 Million Dollars in cuts and I have not seen anything regarding that subject.............it will be interesting to see just what has been identified since there were not any last budget cycle!
you will hear soon enough...the Mayor's proposed budget needs to be presented by July 1...as fort cuts last year, of course there were cuts...you even mentioned one of them in the next sentence!
The Skyway will only operate on Mondays in the future! R.I.P. Skyway. They are running the Skyway into the ground on purpose! It seems like all the busses run through FCCJ/Rosa. Why? There is no point to do that! Certain interests will destroy all transit so Gate can be successful in it's quotas for the year. Poor little Skyway.
It can't even be a tourist attraction any more.
Voting will do nothing. How long has the Skyway operated? 1989? Even with the monorail conversion and the "completion" of the system, "the powers that be" still don't want to do anything with it today.
Yes. It could be successful, but, once again, there's no extra system to connect to the Skyway.
Austin. Delaney. Peyton. That's a long time. Nothing has been done. The Jaguars were coming. That was a money maker. Skyway didn't come with them. The new arena was going to be built. No Skyway extension, etc., etc. 20+ years! Like others have said, "This system was supposed to be here already."
The more traffic and logistics problems, the more people stay in business.
There's profit in confusion!
Skyway at the airport? Possibly. No more waiting to get a ride! Miami is doing it!
Skyway at St. John's Town Center? It is a big "mall."