It looks like this project is picking back up. I noticed this weekend that the Southeast Unit's demolition is already underway.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5366-slide27.JPG)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-jun-wolfson-childrens-hospital-expands
Quoteby Karen Brune Mathis
Managing Editor
Baptist Medical Center will ask for approvals, but no public funds, this week to build a $200 million, 11-story tower at its Downtown Southbank Campus.
Baptist will ask the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission during its Thursday meeting for a resolution of support approving development rights.
Baptist, a full-service medical center, plans a combination adult and pediatric replacement bed tower and surgery, diagnostic and treatment center that it calls the Wolfson Children’s Hospital/Adult Tower.
In the commission’s project summary, Baptist reports the project will replace some existing, aging buildings on the campus.
The new tower would be a 339,404-square-foot center with six floors of a children’s hospital topped by five floors of an adult hospital.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=531165
wasn't there an article done on here about that a year or so back?
Yes. Here is a link: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-jun-wolfson-childrens-hospital-expands
I did a quick skim through the article, no start date given?
I noticed it this weekend too. They have a very big new crane on site (looks like a Liebherr; my favorite) and there looks to be some significant activity.
I noticed that as well. Wasn't sure if it was still sitting and waiting. If this kicks off and starts going vertical while the courthouse in still UC, I95 commuters and passers through will easily get the impression that construction and progress is alive and well in Jax.
QuoteI95 commuters and passers through will easily get the impression that construction and progress is alive and well in Jax.
If only they knew what was going on under that bridge every Saturday..... ;)
^ Yup!
Need some SIGNS!!! :)
Passer by's or visitors may get that impression but those of us who live here, know better! I am really glad to see someone is building something without resorting to JEDC or City tax incentives.............now this is private enterprise at its best! How about that situation tufsu..............no tax dollars at work!
Oh god, give it a damn break. Must you pollute nearly every thread with that stuff?
QuoteThe economy has improved enough for Baptist Health to lift the hold it put on construction of an 11-story medical tower in downtown Jacksonville.
Hugh Greene, the chief executive officer and president of Baptist Health, said Monday that demolition of an existing building on the site of the future tower will start this month. Construction of the tower is slated for the fall. The overall cost for constructing and equipping the building will be around $200 million.
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-06-08/story/baptist-health-unfreezes-plans-building-11-story-medical-tower
From the article:
QuoteThe improvements include providing a shuttle so employees can park at the Kings Avenue Parking Garage and ensuring workers have shifts that avoid them being on the road during the usual rush-hour traffic times.
So there is no way to get these employees to use the skyway?
Quote from: thelakelander on June 08, 2010, 05:53:00 PM
From the article:
QuoteThe improvements include providing a shuttle so employees can park at the Kings Avenue Parking Garage and ensuring workers have shifts that avoid them being on the road during the usual rush-hour traffic times.
So there is no way to get these employees to use the skyway?
Lake, how would you do that? Have them drive to the garage, get on the Skyway, go a few blocks to Prudential, then get on a shuttle for the last leg under the Acosta bridge? I suspect Baptist is thinking like so many others, myself included: That is just too much trouble. Easier to board the shuttle at the garage and head straight to work. Another example of why the Skyway has so few riders.
Gentlemen...........that would make sense, but won't happen! JTA in its infinite wisdom would rather provide a shuttle service, at a slight nominal charge, rather than expanding Skyway! I voted to pull its plug, even though I feel it has potential, but only in an expanded situation and there are no plans to do that is there?
^CS, is JTA running the shuttle? I figured it was Baptist since they run remote parking lot shuttles now from what I see driving through their properties. Either way, the fact that someone is willing to incur the expense of running a shuttle over using the Skyway speaks more volumes about the failing feasibility of the Skyway versus other mass transit options.
stjr...........have heard stories saying both were going to be running it and this was from persons who should know, but to be honest ....I do not know for sure which one. It would make sense to keep it in house but I can't say one way or the other! It would make sense to extend Skyway in that direction to handle Hostpital employee's and office workers on that side of the River, but Stadium could use the boost and if property is used at the river for a new Convention Center, now we are really talking!
Quote from: stjr on June 08, 2010, 06:36:05 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 08, 2010, 05:53:00 PM
From the article:
QuoteThe improvements include providing a shuttle so employees can park at the Kings Avenue Parking Garage and ensuring workers have shifts that avoid them being on the road during the usual rush-hour traffic times.
So there is no way to get these employees to use the skyway?
Lake, how would you do that? Have them drive to the garage, get on the Skyway, go a few blocks to Prudential, then get on a shuttle for the last leg under the Acosta bridge? I suspect Baptist is thinking like so many others, myself included: That is just too much
trouble. Easier to board the shuttle at the garage and head straight to
work. Another example of why the Skyway has so few riders.
I was thinking if i'm JTA or the city i'd look into constructing a ped walkway from San Marco station over the Acosta and FEC RR. That would make my transit investment accessible to two of the Southbank's largest employers.
lake...........didn't Tampa/St Pete have a pedestrian walkway that was discontinued? Walkway does make sense if cost viable and can be fitted into existing footprint for both of them. Not just sure how that could be designed but covered all weather system would be nice. Robert A. Heinlein( I think I spelt it correctly!) wrote about moving cities a few years back and if Jacksonville is looking to become famous for something besides______________ (fill in the blank!) this might be something! One more slice of intermodal transit system maybe!
No. Tampa had a peoplemover that connected a parking garage with a closed shopping center removed.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 08, 2010, 07:20:01 PM
I was thinking if i'm JTA or the city i'd look into constructing a ped walkway from San Marco station over the Acosta and FEC RR. That would make my transit investment accessible to two of the Southbank's largest employers.
Lake, I see. Well, the walkway "investment" (likely, millions), especially to get permits, meet stringent FDOT and FEC specs, buy liability insurance to cover FDOT, FEC, and Baptist, etc., may pay for years worth of shuttle rides.
It seems to me that the all-weather Nemours/Baptist walkway, while no doubt more elaborate (or is it? Would Baptist want the same here?) cost north of $4 million (if memory serves me right) and that was years ago (1996 or so). And, your proposed "connection" would still be 1 to 2 blocks walking distance to most Baptist buildings. So, now you would have: Drive, Park, Skyway, Crosswalk, Walk to get to work. I don't see it
But thanks for working so hard to help JTA find Skyway riders. I'll see if I can get them to send you a "thank you" note ;)
In most cases, if you use transit you're going to have to walk a block or two or more. While a walkway could cost upwards of $3 to $4 million, in the long run it makes everything west of the FEC tracks accessible. As the medical center and Aetna properties build out, that add thousands of riders to the system in the future. Anyway, i'm just looking at the larger picture of eliminating public transit and private shuttle service duplication.
thanks lake..........I knew there was something down there, just not sure what! Not sure if a pedestrian walkway would be the answer or not but it is something to think about! Medical Center and Aetna will probably build out long before the downtown area will because of access via roads on that side of the river and the proximity to I95! Downtown does not have that which makes a rail system of some sort even more needed!
Quote from: CS Foltz on June 07, 2010, 05:56:50 PM
I am really glad to see someone is building something without resorting to JEDC or City tax incentives.............now this is private enterprise at its best! How about that situation tufsu..............no tax dollars at work!
I guess Baptist makes no money off of Medicare...you know that thing we all pay taxes for?
btw...I was at a forum w/ Hugh Greene and his wife this evening...Hugh will be chair of the Jax. Chamber next year....we spoke about the need for Jax. to begin investing in transit mobility and how the Chamber can support the issue...he agreed.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 08, 2010, 08:17:23 PM
In most cases, if you use transit you're going to have to walk a block or two or more.
True, Lake. But... here, as in with other concepts I have seen connected with using the Skyway, you are asking someone to drive into town, park in a large garage, walk across said garage AND an extended connector to the Kings Road Skyway station, wait for and ride the Skyway, most likely standing up and packed like a sardine, exit the Skyway at Prudential and then take stairs/escalator up to an elevated walkway, cross over multiple lanes and on/off ramps of the Acosta, cross FEC, and then take stairs/escalator down (I would guess some three stories at least) to grade and then walk, exposed to the elements, several blocks across the Baptist Campus and through its mazes of hallways, etc.
I think getting people that are commuting to work by car to do all that is far beyond what Jax will accept anytime soon. My experience is employees will fight to the death to have the closest parking space to the front door of their employer. Your proposition is a sea change in that behavior.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for the behavior you propose, but, I think a scaled down version is what will work in Jax for the foreseeable future. This is where I differ regarding the multi-mode transit you and Ock envision. I think there is a very low limit to how many mode changes (maybe only one and I'll consider walking more than 1 or 2 blocks a mode change for this purpose) Jax commuters (especially ones using cars most of the way) will accept and most Skyway scenarios (with its infrequent stations and limited range in an urban setting) I envision put you over this limit.
Quote from: stjr on June 08, 2010, 09:20:21 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 08, 2010, 08:17:23 PM
In most cases, if you use transit you're going to have to walk a block or two or more.
True, Lake. But... here, as in with other concepts I have seen connected with using the Skyway, you are asking someone to drive into town, park in a large garage, walk across said garage AND an extended connector to the Kings Road Skyway station, wait for and ride the Skyway, most likely standing up and packed like a sardine, exit the Skyway at Prudential and then take stairs/escalator up to an elevated walkway, cross over multiple lanes and on/off ramps of the Acosta, cross FEC, and then take stairs/escalator down (I would guess some three stories at least) to grade and then walk, exposed to the elements, several blocks across the Baptist Campus and through its mazes of hallways, etc.
With most major systems you end up going floors up and down or walking over a block underground to get to a train platform. For example, this is true with many transit stations in established cities like NYC, DC, Chicago and even Atlanta.
In the short term, a ped walkway makes Baptist and Aetna accessible to the skyway, meaning a private duplicate shuttle system could be bypassed. In the long run, I'm assuming as a part of a master plan that commuter rail and streetcars will end up carrying most transit users into downtown and onto the skyway to access destinations near its stations. With this in mind, if the skyway is to serve anything west of the Acosta you're going to need a pedestrian overpass to get across the Acosta and FEC tracks anyway. If a Southbank commuter rail station is constructed, this same overpass could connect with such a facility. Being south of the FEC tracks, it also makes it feasible to extend reliable transit into San Marco without the worry of getting across the FEC.
By the way, this image contains stations in three random cities and the Kings Avenue station at the same scale for comparison's sake. I've sketched a potential route for a ped overpass that ties in the Aetna garage and Baptist Medical Center to the skyway and potentially a Southbank commuter rail station.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Amtrak-FEC-Coalition/San-Marco-Station-Potential/894892057_nDieA-L.jpg)
Blue = potential ped overpass (which could be designed to protect from the elements like the Chicago El's Blue Line example shown above.)
Solid Red = potential Southbank commuter rail platform
Light Red = potential infill development sitesQuoteI think getting people that are commuting to work by car to do all that is far beyond what Jax will accept anytime soon. My experience is employees will fight to the death to have the closest parking space to the front door of their employer. Your proposition is a sea change in that behavior.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for the behavior you propose, but, I think a scaled down version is what will work in Jax for the foreseeable future. This is where I differ regarding the multi-mode transit you and Ock envision. I think there is a very low limit to how many mode changes (maybe only one and I'll consider walking more than 1 or 2 blocks a mode change for this purpose) Jax commuters (especially ones using cars most of the way) will accept and most Skyway scenarios (with its infrequent stations and limited range in an urban setting) I envision put you over this limit.[/b]
I like to look at the bigger picture. Whatever goes on with the skyway should be done in coordination with a larger overall vision of what we want our transit system to be. If we're not going to remove the skyway, we need to better integrate it with it's surroundings because it will become the final conduit to those locations for other proposed modes.
Anyway, I don't think Jacksonville residents are any different from residents in places like Salt Lake City and Charlotte. If you design a reliable mass transit system that take people in the areas where it serves to a variety of destinations it will get decent ridership and encourage additional adjacent development. Based on several examples across the country, I also believe mode is not a significant factor as long as its reliable, efficient and connectivity with other modes is seamless.
QuoteIn the short term, a ped walkway makes Baptist and Aetna accessible to the skyway, meaning a private duplicate shuttle system could be bypassed
Interesting idea... however, to compare apples to apples Baptist is open 24 hours a day 7 seven days a week. The skyway is not. Would this proposed shuttle service mirror the skyway's hours(which would most certainly be an unnecessary duplication of services), or would the shuttle service also be available extended hours?
^Excellent question. While the skyway's hours certainly need to be extended to become a reliable system, I'm not sure of what the shuttle's hours will be or what the peak employment hours of the hospital actually are.
BMC runs their own shuttle(s) to their remote parking lots. JTA is not envolved.
To me the walkway deal seams feasible. This would benefit Baptist workers and visitors as well.
Maybe its just me but we constructed a $184 million transit line to transport people throughout the Southbank and downtown. The lack of connectivity, reliability and mass transit route duplication are major reasons why it has and continues to struggle to attract riders. Whether we believe Jax residents will use mass transit is moot when real options for usage have not been on the table since 1936 (the year the streetcar system stopped running). It's insane to not connect and make that investment accessible to places that employ thousands of workers and guests and then call it a failure when no one goes out of their way to use it.
Quote from: stephendare on June 09, 2010, 10:40:41 PM
STJR. Other than the experience that you described at the Jazz Festival, what mass transit do you use? What do you use it for and where do you travel from and to?
Stephen, are you OK? You asked this same question on the streetcar thread. What's up with you?
FYI, Lake brought up the Skyway on this thread about BMC's new tower: Post # 11. I suggest you apply your streetcar thread admonishment to him.
Quote from: stjr on June 09, 2010, 11:35:46 PM
Stephen, are you OK? You asked this same question on the streetcar thread. What's up with you?
FYI, Lake brought up the Skyway on this thread about BMC's new tower: Post # 11. I suggest you apply your streetcar thread admonishment to him.
It is a perfectly good, simple question.
Quote from: reednavy on June 09, 2010, 11:38:23 PM
It is a perfectly good, simple question.
Reed, see the streetcar thread for my answer. Now, tell me your answer to the same question.
Quote from: stjr on June 09, 2010, 11:43:24 PM
Reed, see the streetcar thread for my answer. Now, tell me your answer to the same question.
Fine, I have not used any public transit here, at all. When downtown, I don't use the Skyway because I prefer to walk on foot, even if that means crossing the Main St Bridge.
I use it plenty when in Miami, and can get from downtown Miami to Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood Int'l for under $10.
I have used it in Chicago, Atlanta, Biloxi, and other cities when needed.
Quote from: reednavy on June 09, 2010, 11:55:29 PM
When downtown, I don't use the Skyway because I prefer to walk on foot, even if that means crossing the Main St Bridge.
Reed, fair enough. Your point about walking versus taking the Skyway is something I have noted as well. Why ride when you can walk many connections almost as easily and quickly?
Quote from: stjr on June 09, 2010, 11:35:46 PM
Quote from: stephendare on June 09, 2010, 10:40:41 PM
STJR. Other than the experience that you described at the Jazz Festival, what mass transit do you use? What do you use it for and where do you travel from and to?
Stephen, are you OK? You asked this same question on the streetcar thread. What's up with you?
FYI, Lake brought up the Skyway on this thread about BMC's new tower: Post # 11. I suggest you apply your streetcar thread admonishment to him.
My comment was directly related to this project. A part of the project calls for Baptist employees to use the Kings Avenue garage. However, instead of using the skyway as the connection piece, a duplicate shuttle service will be provided. Common sense just tells me that if I have a $184 million transit system between these two points, it would be in my best interest to attempt to get commuters on it as opposed to further isolating it.
Using the skyway to get to work at BMC? After reading the skyway adventures when leaving the Jazz Festival I'm surprised anyone would think to ride it to work.
Most of the people that will be parking there have fixed schedules and will need to be at work on time. The Baptist shuttle runs more often and delivers them on time right where they need to be rain or shine.
Why do things have to stay the same? I would assume after spending $184 million, service could be modified to serve actual riders.
Quote from: stjr on June 10, 2010, 12:03:49 AM
Quote from: reednavy on June 09, 2010, 11:55:29 PM
When downtown, I don't use the Skyway because I prefer to walk on foot, even if that means crossing the Main St Bridge.
Reed, fair enough. Your point about walking versus taking the Skyway is something I have noted as well. Why ride when you can walk many connections almost as easily and quickly?
Not to derail the thread, but I agree here. Having lived at the Strand, I found it just as easy and roughly as fast to walk the riverwalk, over the main street bridge, and to the landing as to use the skyway. When I did use it, I did so because of the novelty (Excepting for trips to the library). This is the problem with the Skyway. It is too short to effectively entice ridership. This does not need to be the case, however. If I still lived at the strand, a skyway trip into San Marco, Five Points, or the Stadium/Arena would be much more inviting. (My narrow, egocentric overview) My daughters love going on the skyway. (So do I...)
As for how the skyway would work in conjunction with a walkway to baptist, I'm not sure I have grasped the overview, but I could certainly envision driving in from suburbia, parking at a garage, then utilizing the skyway and a covered walkway provided the garage had adequate access to my path home... i.e. I95/I10/US1.
QuoteUsing the skyway to get to work at BMC? After reading the skyway adventures when leaving the Jazz Festival I'm surprised anyone would think to ride it to work.
Really? You're going to take one story about a bad experience that was during an extremely rare occasion and use that to determine your opinions on the skyway? Stephen spent a month riding buses to formulate his opinions, this was one time, that had nothing to do with a daily work commute. I have never had a bad experience with the skyway, while having used it DOZENS of times. It upsets me that you would so quickly dismiss the skyway after one negative comment.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on June 10, 2010, 09:45:18 AM
Really? You're going to take one story about a bad experience that was during an extremely rare occasion and use that to determine your opinions on the skyway? Stephen spent a month riding buses to formulate his opinions, this was one time, that had nothing to do with a daily work commute. I have never had a bad experience with the skyway, while having used it DOZENS of times. It upsets me that you would so quickly dismiss the skyway after one negative comment.
Actually, Captain, many posters on MJ have shared stories of operational issues with the Skyway. Even some of its proponents readily admit to many of the observations I made. I suggest the real disagreement rests, not with if the issues exist presently, but whether they can be reliably fixed, at what costs vs. benefits, and whether those issues should be tackled at all if the Skyway's future is limited and/or endangered.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 10, 2010, 06:06:35 AM
My comment was directly related to this project.
Exactly, Lake, just as most of my Skyway posts relate to the threads they are embedded in, either due to subject matter or another poster interjecting the subject. I just wanted to point out Stephen's obvious double standard for pontificating on what constitutes appropriate postings. I can only conclude the criteria is whether one agrees with his position or not.